AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: devine on 8 Feb 2009, 09:50 pm
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I've decided to buy a pair of STs but I can't decide between the standard dome tweeter and the upgraded ribbon tweeter for $700.
I've asked Jim and he felt that because I primarily listen to rock/hard rock he didn't think I would hear a difference (he didn't quite say it that way, I'm paraphrasing).
But, I currently have a pair of Magnepan 3.5Rs that I'm replacing because I've moved and the room is much too small for them.
I've read some different posts about the RTs but I haven't seen any direct comparison.
I would appreciate any feedback from people who have heard them side-by-side and can offer some pros/cons of the upgrade. I know this is a personal decision, but is it worth the additional $700-750?
Thanks,
Dan
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Great first post and welcome to AC and the extended Salk family. Jim would be able to tell you the best, his comments are very subtle but he is a very good listener. In other words he gave you a pretty good answer.
If in your gut feelings you will always wonder what the sound was like with the ribbon then there is your answer. I have not heard the Song Tower versions side by side but I have heard the G2 ribbon in my HT3 and the LCY ribbon in the V3 and the Hiquphon in the Ellis 1801. It is a different presentation to my ears but I could live with either one but prefer the ribbon. It seems a little more natural IMHO only, especially coming from a Maggie.
Good luck! I had more trouble with the Veneer selection :lol:
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I listened to the SongTower QWT and the RT side by side in Jim Salk's home. He was very gracious and helpful, but did not try to bias my decision. My impression was Jim favored the ribbon tweeter, but he acknowledged this was a personal preference and some listeners preferred the dome tweeter.
I opted for the SongTower QWT because I did not hear sufficient difference to justify the additional expense for the RT. On the other hand, I was willing to spend more for a custom finish. Both the QWT and the RT sounded very good to me. The RT in its sweet spot provides additional definition and extension, but the dome tweeter offers exceptional off-axis response which was important to me in my listening room where friends outside the sweet spot often are enjoying the music. In my opinion the blending of the Hiquphon dome tweeter and Seas drivers provides a wonderful synergy thanks to the collaboration of Jim Salk, Dennis Murphy (for his crossover magic), Paul Kittinger (for the transmission line cabinet design based on work of Martin King) and others involved in developing these speakers.
Note that I am 55+ and my ability to hear high frequencies is declining, so those with golden ears may reach a different conclusion. There are some trade-offs, but my speculation is that many listeners could be very happy with either version of the SongTowers.
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Hi If you really only listen to rock, I would save the $700. There are 2 differences between the RT and 0W1 version. If you listen to jazz or classical with lots of high energy percussion, such as cymbals and triangles, the ribbon does have a more extended feel--it's like someone had stretched out the sound of the 0W2, with less ssssssss and more air and delicacy. But it's very dependant on program material. Second, the ribbon has a little more fill in the crossover region. That will be most noticeable on brass and massed string sound. The 0W2 version, on the other hand, may have a little more impact on high energy material. So--for rock--I think the 0W2 will do just fine.
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DMurphy,
Thanks for sharing your insights on the differences between the RT and OW2 versions. Very enlightening.
Is there any difference between the performance of the OW2 tweeter and the OW4 tweeter upgrade in the QWT? Is the crossover the same for these two tweeters?
Thanks.
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I agree with Dennis. I have the ST with ribbons and they are tremendous with jazz, classical, strings, etc. Imho, this is where the extra $ show up...of course that is said without hearing the domes. The resolution of strings and brass instruments is really something. Rock and roll doesn't seem to have as much definition...but that is more the instruments and the way they are orchestrated than the speaker.
I was going for the maximum clarity, definition and separation I could find in the $3000 price range so the ST RTs and a Song Center were the best fit for me. If you are combining them for music and home theater you may want to add a sub for HT...but for music I don't feel you need one.
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Thanks for the thoughtful feedback everyone. I'm 90% sure I'm going to go with dome tweeters and will likely place my order today.
I'm also undecided about getting a Song Center. In my HT past experience I found that too much sound is directed to the center and away from the left and right. It seems like a waste to underutilize the STs when watching movies. In fact, when I was using the Maggie 3.5s I didn't have a center and I didn't miss it.
For those of you using a center, do you feel that there is a good distribution across all the front speakers or do your (better sounding) left & right channels get underutilized?
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DMurphy,
Thanks for sharing your insights on the differences between the RT and OW2 versions. Very enlightening.
Is there any difference between the performance of the OW2 tweeter and the OW4 tweeter upgrade in the QWT? Is the crossover the same for these two tweeters?
Thanks.
Hi The crossovers are identical. I can't hear any difference between the two tweets, although I think the 0W4 really does have a more time-consuming topical treatment on the dome. Frankly, I think it's more a matter of aesthetics. I kind of like the platinum look of the 0W4.
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At the RMAF I asked Jim Salk the same question about Ribbon Vs. Dome. He said that depending on the music being played some people could hear a slight difference while others couldn't. Kind of a toss up. The Songtowers at the RMAF had Ribbon tweeters. They were driven by AVA gear and sounded GREAT!!!
Cheers
Charlie
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For those of you using a center, do you feel that there is a good distribution across all the front speakers or do your (better sounding) left & right channels get underutilized?
I have the Songcenter with the RTs and am very happy with the sound for HT purposes. Though it is placed some 20 inches lower, I've tilted it upwards somewhat so that at my seating positions it isn't heard as such. It's nearly... dare I use the word, seamless. The clarity of the dialogue is there, without having to adjust the volume up and down to compensate for the loud effects we get in so many films, and that is a big plus for me. A phantom center may work for you but once your seated off axis, the dialogue may follow you and appear to come from either the right or left channel instead of the screen.
As for being underutilized that would be my center. We see maybe one Blu/DVD movie per day average and no TV, SACD or any of that yet. The mains get plenty of exercise though... providing that two channel bliss :thumb:.
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Hey fishin,
I really like the DVD (in 2 channel) of AKUS live you were listening to. :thumb:
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I've decided to wait on the SongCenter and just go with a pair of the SongTower QWTs for now.
I came across this post which has a response from Jim about the 60 degree off-axis response of the STs:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=52983.0
Due to the size of my room and the furniture placement a phantom center should be fine.
Thanks again for the helpful responses!
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I've decided to wait on the SongCenter and just go with a pair of the SongTower QWTs for now.
I came across this post which has a response from Jim about the 60 degree off-axis response of the STs:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=52983.0
Due to the size of my room and the furniture placement a phantom center should be fine.
Thanks again for the helpful responses!
I ran my QWT's both with a lesser quality center and also phantom center for quite a while before opting for SongCenter. The lesser quality center could not hold its own against the clarity and imaging of QWT's and we were often dissappointed with dialogue quality in particular.
The soundstage and imaging with the QWT's is amazing and phantom center was quite acceptable.
Of course, the SongCenter really brought dialogue alive even more. It really completes the package.
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I am late to the party, but I listen to mostly rock and I have the SongTower Ribbons. I've heard both, and the ribbons are superior. I am a bit of an anal guy when it comes to this hobby, so if you're like me or have very good hearing/familiarity with music or playing instruments, get the ribbons. The domes are spectacular, but the ribbons are even better. You'll get that last 10% transparency and things will just sound more "right." However, the ribbons are a trade-off as you'll lose some dispersion, and I don't know how the ribbons measure off-axis, but I assume they aren't as good as the domes.
Just my $0.02. Whichever you go with, enjoy!
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I am late to the party, but I listen to mostly rock and I have the SongTower Ribbons. I've heard both, and the ribbons are superior. I am a bit of an anal guy when it comes to this hobby, so if you're like me or have very good hearing/familiarity with music or playing instruments, get the ribbons. The domes are spectacular, but the ribbons are even better. You'll get that last 10% transparency and things will just sound more "right." However, the ribbons are a trade-off as you'll lose some dispersion, and I don't know how the ribbons measure off-axis, but I assume they aren't as good as the domes.
Just my $0.02. Whichever you go with, enjoy!
Yeah, now I'm kind of torn. I ordered my ST-RT's a couple of weeks ago. I decided on the RT's for the superior sound quality, but it also a very large room and I know I'll have a lot of off axis listening for the open concept rooms. I'm wondering how large or how small the sweet spot is with the Ribbons :scratch: :scratch:
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Yeah, now I'm kind of torn. I ordered my ST-RT's a couple of weeks ago. I decided on the RT's for the superior sound quality, but it also a very large room and I know I'll have a lot of off axis listening for the open concept rooms. I'm wondering how large or how small the sweet spot is with the Ribbons :scratch: :scratch:
I wouldn't worry too much about the off axis response of the ribbons. I notice it somewhat vertically, but not horizontally. Like if I stand up from a relatively close position I can detect a drop in db but sitting off axis doesn't have as much of an effect, if any.
Bob
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Hi
This is my 1st post and I don't mean to intrude the post.
I'm still deciding whether to go with ST or the V3 and I've emailed Jim but have not heard back from him yet.
Let says if I go with ST RTs with standard veneer and was wondering how long it takes to get the speaker after ordering.
Sorry did not mean to hijack the thread. If the need be i can start a separate thread.
AM
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[[/quote]
I wouldn't worry too much about the off axis response of the ribbons. I notice it somewhat vertically, but not horizontally. Like if I stand up from a relatively close position I can detect a drop in db but sitting off axis doesn't have as much of an effect, if any.
Bob
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You're going to hear that vertical difference with either the dome or the ribbon. It's due to cancellation effects from the two woofers as their relative distance and flight times change when you stand up. That's just a feature of MTM's. It's not a big problem with the Song Towers becuase the woofers aren't all that far apart, and the crossover point is fairly low. But you will hear it if you are fairly close (which exaggerates the the difference in the two woofer's flight time to the ear).
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This must be the easiest choice ever, ribbons or nothing :P
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AM -
I've emailed Jim but have not heard back from him yet.
I don't think I ever got your email. Try again jimsalk@att.net. That ought to get through.
Let says if I go with ST RTs with standard veneer and was wondering how long it takes to get the speaker after ordering.
In standard veneers, we are currently running about 30 - 45 days.
- Jim
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Michigan Mike,
I am 59.5 years young and have had many speakers over time and the Maganpan's with a 5ft or so ribon tweeter was probably the most awesome sounding tweeter I ever had the pleasure to own and listen to.
But I have had other speakers like the 1988 Classic Mirage M1's (185 lbs each and 5 ft tall). That had dome tweeters that were in the same league to my ears.
If you have had the chance to AB the SongTowers at Jims etc with music that you are familiar with and like then the choice to you should be discernable.
If it was not then theres another data point....
I thought that when I listened to jazz with like Jazz at the Pawnshop the vibes were magnificant...compared to a dome tweter....better how...I guess its the sound and what my mind is conditioned to believe...something so light, so thin, so low in mass has to be able to react faster, quicker than a dome tweeter????
But when listening to this disc over and over and comparing to different tweeters...there is a difference in sound and how it 'sounds' to me....and I preferred the Maggie's ribbon sound better than the dome tweeter speakers I had back then.
But the ribbon in the Maggies was quite large compared to the one in the SongTower that Jim makes. I dont know if this would make a difference, I dont think its fair to compare a 5 ft ribbon to a small dome speaker
So my gut tells me that in the Songtower comparison between relatively same size tweeters ribbon and dome..that they proabably are close and you would be happy with either....I would probably think the ribbon would win out if I had to really compare the two..
With all that said, I have a dome set on order!! So there ya go.
All the Best
Alex
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AM -
I've emailed Jim but have not heard back from him yet.
I don't think I ever got your email. Try again jimsalk@att.net. That ought to get through.
Let says if I go with ST RTs with standard veneer and was wondering how long it takes to get the speaker after ordering.
In standard veneers, we are currently running about 30 - 45 days.
- Jim
The website listed this email address info@salksound.com. I've forwarded the email to correct one. Hope to hear from you soon.
BTW its an interesting discussion and really helps 1st time buyer like me.
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...I thought that when I listened to jazz with like Jazz at the Pawnshop the vibes were magnificant...compared to a dome tweter...
All the Best
Alex
I agree with Alex, the vibraphone is outstanding with ribbon tweeters; so too are triangles; bells; and breaking glass (anything that resonates really high up the scale). Like some of the others have said though, if you only listen to Rock and Roll (even if it's something like 85-90% Rock), I would probably stick with the domes (which, I have heard and they are fantastic). Save yourself some money, or spend it to get a more exotic veneer, or to get the hand rubbed finish. 8)
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I agree with Alex, the vibraphone is outstanding with ribbon tweeters; so too are triangles; bells; and breaking glass (anything that resonates really high up the scale). Like some of the others have said though, if you only listen to Rock and Roll (even if it's something like 85-90% Rock), I would probably stick with the domes (which, I have heard and they are fantastic). Save yourself some money, or spend it to get a more exotic veneer, or to get the hand rubbed finish.
Or to buy lottsa new music to listen to on your new SongTowers. 8)
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I wouldn't worry too much about the off axis response of the ribbons. I notice it somewhat vertically, but not horizontally. Like if I stand up from a relatively close position I can detect a drop in db but sitting off axis doesn't have as much of an effect, if any.
Bob
Bingo - same thing goes for me.
If the extra $700 is really going to be hard to swallow from a financial standpoint, just get the domes and don't look back. Both are ridiculously fantastic speakers in my opinion; a sound I could never get out of my head even when I had others pairs of speakers in my home, which ultimately lead to me buying a pair of my own. The good news is you're getting a pair of Salk's, and I think Jim and Dennis have proven themselves on these forums by now. Pull the trigger, find something to occupy your time until they arrive, then kick back and enjoy the heck out of them. I am listening to Dream Theater right now, and it's just glorious! :rock:
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Nuance!
I had a nice conversation with Jim today and it looks like my ST's will be assembled in the next few days...Oh My!! we are starting to get
excited once again....
Alex
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What a wonderful forum. I'm convinced my decision for the Ribbons was the correct one. My mouth is literally watering with anticipation :)
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I placed my order for the STs with dome tweeters (no center, for now). My new living room is pretty small and the wide axis should be sufficient for the 30% of HT listening I'll do. Love the silver/grey guitar burst finish but needed to skimp on the veneer so I'm going with the cherry. Now the waiting begins....
Thanks again to everyone who helped me cross the t's and dot the i's so I could complete my order. I've been doing a LOT of research on this purchase and even though I'm buying these without physically hearing or seeing them I feel very comfortable with my decision. This is in large part to the posts on this forum and the timely and thoughtful email responses from Jim!
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devine,
Great! Congrats on the decision. I like you have bought these without ever hearing a set and have a great set of speakers now...but I know there are 'better' in this class and it looks like this particular speaker design and choice of components and crossovers is indeed the sweetspot in this price category.
The wait wont be that long I am sure and Jim is a really nice person to deal with......a rarity these days for sure!
When mine arrive I will post my first impressions and review.
My room is a rather small room, the over the garage bonus room turned in to home theater and computer room.
All the best
Alex
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Thanks Alex. I'm sure you will enjoy your STs also. So, did you get the QWTs or RTs?
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Just for clarification I believe that QWT=Quarter Wave Transmission-line.
Both the ribbon tweeter (RT) and the soft dome (0W2) are QWT.
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I thought the QWT designation referred to the dome tweeter, thanks for the clarification funkmonkey
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devine,
I ordered the dome tweeter.
I was tempted to order the ribbons, but the speakers I have now and the speakers I have had and from my all my 'reading and research' into what theses speakers are 'supposed' to be capable of I really want to compare these with the domes to what I have now Dahlquist QX10's. The QX10's have 4 elements, 3 - 5 inch drivers and a small 1" dome metallic tweeter. They really are quite good and I have had them since 2002.
I am very interested to see how much better the QWT design will be in the bass department to these as well as imaging etc...and the metallic tweeter in these to the soft dome in the Song's.
I should be able to report on all of this is a few weeks!!
I really look forward to forgetting about the technology and getting back to listening to the 'music' once again!
All the Best
Alex
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Nuance!
I had a nice conversation with Jim today and it looks like my ST's will be assembled in the next few days...Oh My!! we are starting to get
excited once again....
Alex
Woohoo! I am psyched for you!
I look forward to your impressions.
What a wonderful forum. I'm convinced my decision for the Ribbons was the correct one. My mouth is literally watering with anticipation :)
I think you'll be very pleased. I also look forward to your impressions.
I placed my order for the STs with dome tweeters (no center, for now). My new living room is pretty small and the wide axis should be sufficient for the 30% of HT listening I'll do. Love the silver/grey guitar burst finish but needed to skimp on the veneer so I'm going with the cherry. Now the waiting begins....
Thanks again to everyone who helped me cross the t's and dot the i's so I could complete my order. I've been doing a LOT of research on this purchase and even though I'm buying these without physically hearing or seeing them I feel very comfortable with my decision. This is in large part to the posts on this forum and the timely and thoughtful email responses from Jim!
Great news, Devine! I am sure you'll love them.
Can't wait to hear what you think! And guys, please post pics when you get them. :thumb:
I thought the QWT designation referred to the dome tweeter, thanks for the clarification funkmonkey
Technically they are both quarter wave transmission line, but we have been using the QWT and RT to distinguish them. :oops: I guess a better way to do it would be to just say ribbons or domes.
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Great thread! 8)
Have any FR/phase plots been shown comparing the ribbon/dome versions? I know the dome plots are on the website but haven't seen anything for the ribbon. Yet. Also, for those who compared the two directly, what differences, if any, did you find with soundstage depth?
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devine - saw you went with the cherry after considering other finishes.
It took me about 5 minutes to decide which speakers I wanted...and about a week to decide on the wood/finish, lol. I looked at every picture on the Salk site and every picture posted by Salk owners. Since I had already blown my budget by upgrading to the RT and then added the center I ended up just going with the cherry in a natural finish. Thought I was compromising...then the speakers arrived. If there is one thing that is repeated by owners on this forum that you can absolutely take to the bank it is that "pictures don't do the speakers justice". The fit and finish of these speakers is pretty incredible and even the basic choices are more in line with being fine furniture...or art...than just being a set of speakers.
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Great thread! 8)
Have any FR/phase plots been shown comparing the ribbon/dome versions? I know the dome plots are on the website but haven't seen anything for the ribbon. Yet. Also, for those who compared the two directly, what differences, if any, did you find with soundstage depth?
I think this is the proper plot, but Dennis can correct me if I am wrong.
SongTower RT:
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp94/iviustang50h/STRT.png?t=1234448777)
SongTower QWT (Dennis' pair):
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp94/iviustang50h/grillsoff.png?t=1234448889)
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Can someone help me interpret these graphs in layman's terms?
Does this have a bearing on the axis for the RTs? Speaking of which,
Jim mentioned that the dome tweeters have a whopping 60 degree axis width. I know that the RTs are morrow narrow but does anyone know how much? It may not be too late to upgrade my order...
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How wide is your audio room? At the RMAF AVA and Salk were in not a big room. About average for a hotel room. The songtowers with the ribbon tweeters easily filled the room with music. I didn't hear any off axis music. If you want to hear off axis music listen to a pair of Martin logans!!! If I were you I would not be concerned about weather to get Domes or ribbons.
Cheers
Charlie
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Can someone help me interpret these graphs in layman's terms?
Does this have a bearing on the axis for the RTs? Speaking of which,
Jim mentioned that the dome tweeters have a whopping 60 degree axis width. I know that the RTs are morrow narrow but does anyone know how much? It may not be too late to upgrade my order...
These plots have nothing to do with off-axis response. The first is a simulation of the RT ST in my design software. It is not an actual measurement of the finished product. The second is a chopped off real measurement of something--I guess it's the ST, but I can't quite tell. Maybe it's the plot that was posted on another thread to show the effects of the grill. I couldn't find that quickly, but if someone knows the link, it might help to post it here. Both the dome and ribbon versions of the ST have a "60 degree axis width" to either side, in the sense that there is substantial output in the highs 60 degrees off axis. But the dome has a little more, and it's a little smoother. That's just a fact of physics due to the size and shape of the drivers. I don't think it would be much of an issue in most rooms and listening positions.
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That's correct Dennis. The RT plot is the simulation you sent me, and the dome is from the comparo of grills on and off that was posted in funkmonkey's speaker quest thread. The plot I posted for the dome SongTower was with the grills off.
As far as I know the RT version has not been measured yet. If it has, I'd like to see it myself.
Hope that helps.
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This is the original post for the SongTowers. It has a plot of the response at 60%!!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40820.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40820.0)
Bob
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This is the original post for the SongTowers. It has a plot of the response at 60%!!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40820.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40820.0)
Bob
60 degrees?
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How wide is your audio room?
14 feet wide by 15 feet deep with an 8 foot ceiling. The main listening position is 10 feet back which will be about 8 feet from the speakers (allowing for a foot of clearance behind them). That position is 7 feet from either side wall so right in the middle. The other positions are at most 2 feet to the left or right. As I'm thinking about it there shouldn't any off-axis positions whether it's the domes or RTs.
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In that room I think it comes down to the issue of what kind of music you listen to. I wouldn't worry about differences in the off-axis response.
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Dennis or Jim,
Can you tell us what type / Quality of components are used to build the crossovers? I dont want you to reveal any trade secrets etc...but was wondering about the components used in building and the design?
I am an electrical engineer type and to me individual components mean a lot to me. There are great parts and some not so great parts....
Don't know if anyone has asked this kind of question before?
All the best
Alex
NOTE: I just thought that my question is not really a ribbon vs a dome tweeter question, and i did not mean to hijack this thread. It probably is better suited to a thread by itself....if this is more apprppriate let me know and I will start this type of technical discussion in another thread... :D
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Jim will have to give you specifics about brands. But we're definitely talking high quality air core inductors of the gauge I specified for optimum performance, non-inductive resistors, probably Mills, although Jim would have to confirm, and poly caps on the level of, say, Solens. You can specifiy anythng you want. I know Jim offers a cap upgrade for the HT3's and I'm sure he would do the same for any other speaker. I personally think it's a waste of money, but I'm an economist, so what do I know?
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Hi Dennis,
Interesting, some folks really get caught up in the component "brands" used in their 'stuff'....I would be more interested in the tolerances of the components in a design that dictates a particular value and there is a reason for this.
Some lesser spec'd components could easily get out of spec, to a point this is not very important in some circuits and in others is very important.
I can remember measuring resistors to get the ones I wanted in my circuits when it was important etc...not all those gold banded resistors were in spec.
Then there is the "this brand" sounds better than that brand etc...I am not really concerned about this...although it makes fun reading at times :D
Its more of are we using really good, solid components that meet the circuit design tolerances and how well do the components stay in tolerance over time. Usually this is in circuits that have hot cold cycles etc...in a speaker this is not usually an issue. (me thinks).
From you short response I am sure Jim uses the 'good stuff'.
I just have a wandering mind!!
All the best
Alex
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As far as I know the RT version has not been measured yet. If it has, I'd like to see it myself.
Same here! In addition to FR plots I'd like to see waterfall plots, THD, etc. comparing the two...the nerd in me craves such things! :oops:
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Well, the nerd at this end would have to rebuild the RT. It's long since been dismantled.
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Well, the nerd at this end would have to rebuild the RT. It's long since been dismantled.
Ah...was unawares! :duh: I'll just tinker with the pinball machine then. 8)