Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 19371 times.

audioengr

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #20 on: 16 Feb 2012, 06:53 pm »
1) What's the point of having the OR5 if you can just listen to Steve's DAC?  I was unclear how you were discussing DAC's and then you switched to converters?

This is a shootout between converters, so we will use the S/PDIF inputs on both my DAC and his DAC.  Apples-to-apples.

Quote
2) What's the point of having different cabling?  Steve says the cabling should not make much/any difference, but even if there is, you should have cabling that is good to your ears, and that's all that matters. 

An expensive USB cable may give an advantage to Diverter or Off-Ramp.  It's better to use a generic $10 cable and make the comparison.  Otherwise, its converter plus $600 cable, not just converter.

I'm sure we will try his expensive USB cable as well on both if we have time.

Quote
3) Brings me to next point=what is the point having Steve around when only you can decide what works best for you?  Even if the Diverter is clearly superior, will Steve want to hear what exactly is superior, wouldn't he want to hear it in his system, in a room at an RMAF show side by side with his own component/s, etc. etc.?  In the end, it's all subjective, and only you as a listener of your own system can say what you want to have in your setup.

The problem is that he does not have many hi-res tracks to use in the comparison.  I have world-class tracks.  Also, we already know he is using one of the poor versions of Amarra.  I need to install the good one on his laptop.

All of these will improve our chances of making a good comparison.

Quote
If you have full range speakers, you won't need the subs.  Sure, it's fun to bring them into the session to increase the potential system SPL, but otherwise, they are useless in terms of resolution that your full range speakers will or should already be providing/at least giving you the tones/cues/etc.

I agree, but maybe his full-range speakers are limited and need the subs.  Its okay with me.

Steve N.

jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11415
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #21 on: 16 Feb 2012, 07:06 pm »
I don't see why you have to change the USB cable, Amarra or anything.  It should be a simple A/B/A of converters.  The customer is used to what he has so just swap ONE component so you can hear THAT change. 

Patay

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 9
    • Sonicweld
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #22 on: 16 Feb 2012, 10:09 pm »
I agree.  Provided all the variables are the same between the two tests then yes, in theory one could manipulate any number of them, but I don't really see the point.  Ostensibly the objective of a shootout would be to lay bare any differences when only one variable - the equipment being tested - is changed.

Steve, as long as system changes are on the table for discussion, I'm wondering:

I plan to use a standard Belkin gold 5 meter cable, nothing special.

I'm fine with using a cheap Belkin cable (and in fact that's what I use as a baseline for all my testing) but is it really necessary to use a fifteen footer?  That's right at the edge of maximum USB cable length.  If your concern is to provide the best conditions possible by making all of these other changes, wouldn't it be better to use the shortest USB cable possible?

audioengr

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #23 on: 16 Feb 2012, 10:28 pm »
I agree.  Provided all the variables are the same between the two tests then yes, in theory one could manipulate any number of them, but I don't really see the point.  Ostensibly the objective of a shootout would be to lay bare any differences when only one variable - the equipment being tested - is changed.

Steve, as long as system changes are on the table for discussion, I'm wondering:

I'm fine with using a cheap Belkin cable (and in fact that's what I use as a baseline for all my testing) but is it really necessary to use a fifteen footer?  That's right at the edge of maximum USB cable length.  If your concern is to provide the best conditions possible by making all of these other changes, wouldn't it be better to use the shortest USB cable possible?

The 5m Belkin Gold is what I ship with the Off-Ramp 5, and this is what I use everyday.  I'm not afraid to show-off the Off-Ramp 5 with this cable, and I dont believe that the competition should be afraid either.  Many of my customers need the longer cable as I do.

Not that we will not try a shorter cable if you have one.  We can do that too.  Do you have anything better than Belkin?  I have a short silver Kimber that I can bring.

Steve N.


jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11415
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #24 on: 16 Feb 2012, 10:47 pm »
Again, why not use what the customer uses every time he/she listens?  I'm sorry but I don't understand this way of thinking.

Patay

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 9
    • Sonicweld
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #25 on: 17 Feb 2012, 02:41 am »
I'm not afraid to show-off the Off-Ramp 5 with this cable, and I dont believe that the competition should be afraid either.

Steve, I am not "afraid" to have the 5M Belkin used with the Diverter, nor am I concerned about using any other cable that is electrically sound and conforms to USB 2.0 specs.  The actual cable used isn't the issue I'm getting at here.  I'm just confused by your logic of wanting to optimize tpaxadpom's system to your liking by imposing several significant changes (DAC, SPDIF cable, system calibration, removing subs), but being content to use a cable that is potentially longer than necessary, which seems like an obvious bit of sonic low-hanging fruit.  If you're not afraid to show off your product with this (or presumably any other) cable, shouldn't you be similarly unafraid to allow your device perform in tpaxadpom's system as-is?

In contrast, I am not trying to make any changes to tpaxadpom's system; I didn't even know what DAC he was using until I asked him yesterday, and I still don't know anything about the rest of his system other than what I've read in this thread.  I trust that he has architected and configured his system in a way that is satisfying and rewarding for him, and I'm content to allow the Diverter to show its mettle in those circumstances without any preconditions from me.

Audioexcels

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #26 on: 22 Feb 2012, 04:18 am »
Two options/conclusions for this:

1) Have the person auditioning both use whatever he wants, end of story.  Doesn't matter the cables/recordings/etc.  It's his system so he knows what he likes most/best.

2) To do a proper shoot-out, which it sounds like both want to do, have both products at an RMAF show.  Use them in one of the top rooms at the show...can even be the top/best room of the show.  It depends on what other equipment is being used and how easy it will be to get the two components into the setup, along with the switch box, and a panel of judges (all of which are not allowed to speak to each other or show any signs of a reaction) that write down what they hear.

Another option would be to find a reference system in a location where a panel of judges known for their unbiased reviews can do the shootout. 


tpaxadpom

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #27 on: 27 Feb 2012, 11:42 pm »
I have 6ft version of gold belkin I bought 10 years ago to use with my printer. It proved to be a good match for Offramp 4. Offramp 3 flavored other no-name cable but Offramp 4 was awfully bright/harsh with it. Pat sent me a couple of his 5m long USB cables along with Legato converter. Both cables didn't have 5V line and were much better then the gold belkin (6ft) cable in that configuration.

jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11415
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #28 on: 28 Feb 2012, 01:20 am »
Any actual updates on the comparison?

tpaxadpom

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #29 on: 28 Feb 2012, 02:28 am »
The shootout hasn't happened yet.

tpaxadpom

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #30 on: 2 May 2012, 07:08 pm »
Here is the video showing jitter measurements of Offramp 4 with standard clocks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFtAZY_hsgo
These numbers look awfully high. I wonder if something wrong with this box. This is offramp 3 upgraded to offramp 4 (front panel wasn't replaced as the part of upgrade).

jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11415
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #31 on: 3 May 2012, 12:29 am »
Here is the video showing jitter measurements of Offramp 4 with standard clocks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFtAZY_hsgo
These numbers look awfully high. I wonder if something wrong with this box. This is offramp 3 upgraded to offramp 4 (front panel wasn't replaced as the part of upgrade).
Very interesting.  Is that your AP equipment?   :drool:

tpaxadpom

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #32 on: 3 May 2012, 02:46 am »
Very interesting.  Is that your AP equipment?   :drool:
No.  :lol: I have access to AP equipment, that's all.

Audioexcels

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #33 on: 3 May 2012, 07:58 am »
No.  :lol: I have access to AP equipment, that's all.

And how does the OR4 sounding vs. anything else you have heard?  I.E. What does it closest compare to of any transport you have heard?  I don't think Steve would take offense.  It is quite a dated design.

tpaxadpom

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #34 on: 3 May 2012, 04:04 pm »
Offramp 3 and 4 are one of the best sounding usb/spdif converters I've heard. I prefer both of them to ArT Legato that measured really well (Pat really knows his stuff). But that is in my system, with Win7 machine and 5m active usb extender. That is a good chance I haven't given Legato a chance to perform the best at the time as I didn't have MAC with Amarra. In general I wouldn't go crazy with these jitter numbers. It's meaningless in the context of different DACs. I am not an audio design engineer, so I cannot correlate jitter spectrum to how the end product is going to sound with a given DAC. I enjoy the music and if I like how it sounds I am a happy man.

jtwrace

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11415
  • www.theintellectualpeoplepodcast.com
    • TIPP YouTube Channel
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #35 on: 3 May 2012, 04:08 pm »
In general I wouldn't go crazy with these jitter numbers.
Yes, but Empirical loves to use the word jitter in every other sentence it seems.  It's obviously what he is trying to reduce thus a better measurement should yield a measurement wtih less jitter.  Whether it sounds better or not I have no idea.  There's much more to it then jitter and that I do konw from my experience with different dacs.

audioengr

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #36 on: 3 May 2012, 06:06 pm »
Yes, but Empirical loves to use the word jitter in every other sentence it seems.  It's obviously what he is trying to reduce thus a better measurement should yield a measurement wtih less jitter.  Whether it sounds better or not I have no idea.  There's much more to it then jitter and that I do konw from my experience with different dacs.

The only characteristic of jitter that I have found that seems to correlate to sound quality is the spectral skirts on the fundamental frequency.  It's not a single measurement number.  It's almost a qualitative analysis of the spectrum.

I have experienced cases of higher P-P jitter over all frequencies from a clock that sounded better than another clock with lower P-P jitter.

I am really suspicious of RMS jitter measurements too.  I don't believe they relate to sound quality in most cases, particularly when you are comparing one device or clock with 203 psec RMS jitter to another with 300 psec RMS jitter.

RMS measurements tend to mask the spikes by averaging everything.  It could be that a clock with a large spike at 40kHz and a jitter floor of -120dB measures the same RMS jitter number as another clock with no spike and a noise floor of -100dB.  It's worthless IMO.

Steve N.

kyrill

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #37 on: 13 Dec 2012, 11:43 am »
What happened since 4th  of May? Did the shoot out ever happen?

audioengr

Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #38 on: 13 Dec 2012, 07:35 pm »
What happened since 4th  of May? Did the shoot out ever happen?

No, he never gave me a time that he was available to do this.  I'm not that interested now frankly.....  it's the holidays.

Steve N.

tpaxadpom

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Re: Off-Ramp 5 versus Diverter HR
« Reply #39 on: 28 Dec 2012, 08:50 am »
Steve, we can schedule something up if you are still interested. I couldn't justify stealing vacation time from my family and weekends have been pretty busy. Remember we are not next door neighbors and it is a long drive for Steve.

PS: I can offer a set of jitter measurements on AP 2722 for one or two Offramp 5 converters with different options  as a contribution to the forum (provided interested party pays for shipping).