[Archguy]

Not sure what your budget is, but Larsen speakers are actually designed to be placed against the wall. They come at three price points and in four finishes:

http://www.larsenhifi.com/en/larsen6.htm

Thanks very much for the info.  Can't say I've ever heard of Larsen before.  Looked at their 'Larsen 4' seriously.  Sort of a fun little bugger!  And thanks especially because it's obviously very relevant to my particular 'dilemma'.  I came this close last night to buying a pair of Thiel CS2.4 speakers.  Just thought they were so cool, my trigger finger is still itching since my HTDs haven't arrived yet, and they got great reviews.  Plus they were sort of in my budget being around $2K.  Then read some more and saw that they really really need to be 2-3 ft from the 'front wall'.  Now where did anyone get that idea

ETA: My natural impulse is to 'defend' the Larsens even though I know next to nothing about them; much less how they sound, beyond others' descriptions.  Simply because their creators took the time to address a real issue: many (dare I say most) people actually do push their speakers up against the wall.  Obviously not audiophiles, but 'normal' people.  So that's the real world for most of us among the Great Unwashed, and why on earth shouldn't more manufacturers deal with it? 

(Someone also please tell me why speakers with no drivers or even ports/passive radiators on the back are so sensitive to placement near walls?  The sound is radiating from the front.  I do have a rudimentary knowledge of physics and studied wave theory way back when.  Okay, you just don't want a 'too-soon' reflection of sound waves, even if they have emanated from the front drivers.  I get that, but then I'm not sure how the Larsens address this.  I'll have to read more.  If a speaker is going to be located near a wall as in my horrifying photo, within eight inches for example, which is better: two inches? Four? Six? Eight?   I should also state, though I'm not sure it matters, that the vast majority of my listening is classical and jazz at moderate levels.) 

Next I'll venture into the Tube-o-phile Circle and ask about one of my cheap Chinese tube amps which is producing silibance on jazz bass notes
I know even less about tube amps than I know about speaker placement!  Should be fun.
 

[AJinFLA]

I don't let the hammer tell me what wood to buy

And pants. I especially don't takes his advice on pants either.

[RDavidson]

You might try these too. They're made to be placed near rear boundaries and designed by one of the (somewhat lesser known) legends from home audio's golden age. http://directacoustics.com/?page_id=16

[Letitroll98]

And pants. I especially don't takes his advice on pants either.

 

[artur9]

(Someone also please tell me why speakers with no drivers or even ports/passive radiators on the back are so sensitive to placement near walls?  The sound is radiating from the front. 

My understanding is that although the drivers are in front the "wave launch" is still spherical in nature.  Unless one is talking panel speakers like Magnepan, which are designed to "beam" to a certain extent to eliminate room interaction.  AIUI etc.  Line arrays like Carver's Amazing Linesource also have a different radiation pattern.

[TEA FOR ONE]

You might try these too. They're made to be placed near rear boundaries and designed by one of the (somewhat lesser known) legends from home audio's golden age. http://directacoustics.com/?page_id=16

     This would also be my recommendation.

[dB Cooper]

ETA: My natural impulse is to 'defend' the Larsens even though I know next to nothing about them; much less how they sound, beyond others' descriptions.  Simply because their creators took the time to address a real issue: many (dare I say most) people actually do push their speakers up against the wall.

That's actually not the issue they were designed to address. The issue they were designed to solve is that most speakers- even those that 'measure' flat- don't deliver flat response in a real room. This territory was first 'worked' in pioneering work by Roy Allison over 40 years ago, and involves very specific relationships between the driver layouts, speaker location, and crossover points so as to reduce room effects on the frequency response as much as possible. It just happens that one of the ways he accomplished this was by placing the woofer as close as possible to a room boundary and setting the woofer/mid x-over frequency quite low. The theory is pretty complex and I'm sure I'm not explaining it adequately, but I do have a scan of the old Allison brochure which explained it at length if you'd like me to send it.

How did it sound? My Allison CD-8 not only sounded almost the same in every one of the rooms I had them in, but the same in any part of those rooms.

The Larsen reps only grudgingly admitted a kinship with the Allison concepts, but even though the execution is very different, the goals and underlying principles have a lot in common. Perhaps because Allisons used omni drivers (also explained in the brochure), the Larsen speakers probably don't share their limitless 'sweet spot')( I could open a closet door in front of my Model Four bookshelves and still have a stereo image!) and have a much more complex cabinet. But the design goals are the same: Flat response in a real-world room.

However, might I suggest that the amount of glass seen in the picture doesn't bode well for the best sound anyway, and wonder if somewhere else might be more practical as a listening space investment.

[JLM]

My understanding is that although the drivers are in front the "wave launch" is still spherical in nature.  Unless one is talking panel speakers like Magnepan, which are designed to "beam" to a certain extent to eliminate room interaction.  AIUI etc.  Line arrays like Carver's Amazing Linesource also have a different radiation pattern.

 

Dispersion is related to driver size versus the length of the sound wave (between peaks) being produced by said driver.  If the driver size is significantly smaller than the length of the sound wave it will exhibit spherical dispersion, but as the length of the sound wave approaches the size of the driver the dispersion will reduce ("beam" like a flashlight).  Sound waves in air near sea level travel at 13,200 inches per second.  Divide that number by the frequency will produce the length of the sound wave.  So a 13,000 Hz sound wave is roughly 1 inch long and beaming can be expected from a 1 inch wide dome tweeter.  A 60 Hz sound wave is 220 inches (over 18 feet) long so a spherical dispersion can be expected from any sized woofer. 

In Archguy's example the spherical dispersion of bass waves would be greatly compromised to between 1/2 space on the left speaker and roughly 1/8th space on the right side.  This means that bass response would be exaggerated, especially on the right channel.  (Think of talking through a megaphone to funnel and thereby amplifying the sound.)

[JLM]

Bottom lines:

1.)  There is no perfect loudspeaker.

2.)  The room and speaker/listening position setup have a much bigger effect on speaker performance than most would like to admit.

3.)  Most audiophiles buy gear based at least in part on visual aspects and to be entertained versus to gain an accurate reproduction of what the recording professionals hear.

[AJinFLA]

The sound is radiating from the front.  I do have a rudimentary knowledge of physics and studied wave theory way back when.

That's good. Then hopefully you remember that when a wave is large relative to a boundary, it simply passes around it. The speaker drivers on front do radiate "forward" somewhat hemispherically (with cones/domes), but when the waves are large relative to baffle and/or the drivers are radiating frequencies larger than the diaphragm, they simply wrap around the baffle and radiate in all directions, including backwards. The smaller the driver diameters/narrower baffle, the more sound/frequencies going backward. That is precisely why I showed you the radiation pattern of a cardioid, which "nulls" to the rear, where the wall would be. A typical front mounted cone/dome box radiates a lot of sound backwards. That's why most generally recommend not placing too close to front wall for good imaging, etc.
You'll see when you get the HTDs and experiment a bit with placement.

cheers,

AJ

[guest61169]

There should be nothing between the speakers.  If you must, keep it low.  The high reflective bookcase with vibrating glass is not good.
Both speakers should see the same room characteristics.  If one has a wall behind it and a wall beside it, so should the other.
Do not have untreated sidewalls.  Avoid sidewalls with windows. 
Do not have speaker firing across objects (sofa) on their way to the listening position.
Do not automatically put speakers close to the front wall.  They will usually sound best a ways out. 

It is a beautiful room but I wouldn't recommend investing any money into the audio equipment until the room issues can be worked out or a new room found. 

[dB Cooper]

I think noway sums up the realities of the situation: Beautiful room, but a tough go for sound unless some fairly significant changes are made.

[genjamon]

You know, I've gotten some very pleasing living room sound with some old Wharfdale monitors/bookshelf speakers on actual bookshelves, powered by a basic modern $300 HT receiver from Best Buy - with a Dayton 12" sub in the corner.  This has been my parents' setup for years since I set them up with it.  And when I visit over holidays, and we play some kind of background music or a concert on TV/DVD, it fills the room, is articulate with good detail, has an attractive warmth to the midrange, and is generally engaging. 

I think that's all the OP is looking for, and I believe can totally be achieved in his room with modest investment relative to audiophile standards.  No, the setup will not soundstage like the devil, and there may be some image smearing due to that cabinet.  But it won't be the end of the world, and can result in a very satisfying sound as long as critical listening is not his passion (which he's clearly stated is not his thing). 

I say get some Clue speakers - which are small monitor-style speakers designed for relatively full bass response when placed directly against a wall.  Put them on some nice solid stands that elevate the sound above that lounge.  Hook up some of those tube amps, or get a decent SS integrated amp with tone controls.  Definitely consider a subwoofer you can place over in that right hand corner out of the way and hidden by a plant or something. 

If not the Clue, then some Salks.  Actually, some Salk Songtowers would probably look and sound great there.  But as a jazz lover, I'd highly recommend calling Louis Chocos of Omega speakers - his single driver speakers are definitely meant for jazz lovers.  And some of his designs are also meant for placement along a wall - I believe the Super 3XRS, but maybe others.  He does really nice wood cabinet finishes. 

Regarding the rear ports - there's nothing to stop you from putting a rear ported speaker up against a wall.  But yeah, you'll be attenuating the output from that port for sure.  Which will be in the lower frequencies.  So, again, highlights the importance of considering a subwoofer out of the way in your plans.

I've mentioned all of the above with the caveat that the OP is willing to accept sonic compromises and not get the most out of his speaker investments.  Yes, up against a wall will almost always compromise imaging/soundstaging, and depending on the design also will muck up low frequency overall responses.  However, these compromises don't mean he won't have ANY imaging/soundstaging, and it doesn't mean he can't have a healthy bass response if other active measures are considered. 

Just my attempt at a sane real-world response to the OP's genuine interest in fitting a system into his nicely appointed real-world room.

[Archguy]

Just my attempt at a sane real-world response to the OP's genuine interest in fitting a system into his nicely appointed real-world room.

Thanks, your post is nearly worth the whole thread!  I will look up the ones you mention, especially the Omegas.   Meanwhile I wish we could blindfold a couple contributors here and bring them in for a listen.  I'd stake my bottom dollar that they'd refuse to believe the sound quality is actually in this room.  Then again, I've only shown part of the room so far

And I don't dare show my HT-type room!  I'm not in there much lately anyway.  Vastly prefer music to video.  Anyway....I'm certainly not considering rear ports and I do roll off the bass a bit (or a lot) depending on the music.  I doubt that'll surprise anyone here.   

You'll see when you get the HTDs and experiment a bit with placement.

Thanks & understood re: the various points you make.

I think noway sums up the realities of the situation: Beautiful room, but a tough go for sound unless some fairly significant changes are made.

Please tell me this is not what you have in mind, and I don't mean the pipe


 

[roscoe65]

You know, I've gotten some very pleasing living room sound with some old Wharfdale monitors/bookshelf speakers on actual bookshelves, powered by a basic modern $300 HT receiver from Best Buy - with a Dayton 12" sub in the corner.  This has been my parents' setup for years since I set them up with it.  And when I visit over holidays, and we play some kind of background music or a concert on TV/DVD, it fills the room, is articulate with good detail, has an attractive warmth to the midrange, and is generally engaging. 

I think that's all the OP is looking for, and I believe can totally be achieved in his room with modest investment relative to audiophile standards.  No, the setup will not soundstage like the devil, and there may be some image smearing due to that cabinet.  But it won't be the end of the world, and can result in a very satisfying sound as long as critical listening is not his passion (which he's clearly stated is not his thing). 

I say get some Clue speakers - which are small monitor-style speakers designed for relatively full bass response when placed directly against a wall.  Put them on some nice solid stands that elevate the sound above that lounge.  Hook up some of those tube amps, or get a decent SS integrated amp with tone controls.  Definitely consider a subwoofer you can place over in that right hand corner out of the way and hidden by a plant or something. 

If not the Clue, then some Salks.  Actually, some Salk Songtowers would probably look and sound great there.  But as a jazz lover, I'd highly recommend calling Louis Chocos of Omega speakers - his single driver speakers are definitely meant for jazz lovers.  And some of his designs are also meant for placement along a wall - I believe the Super 3XRS, but maybe others.  He does really nice wood cabinet finishes. 

Regarding the rear ports - there's nothing to stop you from putting a rear ported speaker up against a wall.  But yeah, you'll be attenuating the output from that port for sure.  Which will be in the lower frequencies.  So, again, highlights the importance of considering a subwoofer out of the way in your plans.

I've mentioned all of the above with the caveat that the OP is willing to accept sonic compromises and not get the most out of his speaker investments.  Yes, up against a wall will almost always compromise imaging/soundstaging, and depending on the design also will muck up low frequency overall responses.  However, these compromises don't mean he won't have ANY imaging/soundstaging, and it doesn't mean he can't have a healthy bass response if other active measures are considered. 

Just my attempt at a sane real-world response to the OP's genuine interest in fitting a system into his nicely appointed real-world room.

I agree with most of these points.  For many of us our listening rooms have to pull double duty, and oftentimes sound quality is expected to take a back seat to other priorities.  In this room, placement of the speakers and other furnishings will never allow the best sound, but may allow for good enough sound.  If I were approaching this problem I would focus first on getting the tone and frequency response right.  Not matter how well a speaker images, if the tone is wrong the sound is wrong.  And in a setup where we can't get good imaging, tone is all we have.

I will jump on the bandwagon and recommend Omega Speakers as well.  Louis will put the port on the front or back based on your preference.  They have great tone, run well on a little power, and thrive on decent tubes.  A pair of Super 3 XRS and a tube integrated would ring in at about $2k.  If you can spend a little more money, a pair of the new Junior 8's would be even better.

[artur9]

A 60 Hz sound wave is 220 inches (over 18 feet) long so a spherical dispersion can be expected from any sized woofer. 

Infinite baffle speakers/sub address that?

[JLM]

Infinite baffle speakers/sub address that?

Good point, with infinite baffle you automatically get a semi-spherical (or less) presentation.  Realize that in-wall speakers behave as infinite baffle as well.  But the size of the sound wave cannot change for a given frequency and transfer medium. 

[JLM]

There should be nothing between the speakers.  If you must, keep it low.  The high reflective bookcase with vibrating glass is not good.
Both speakers should see the same room characteristics.  If one has a wall behind it and a wall beside it, so should the other.
Do not have untreated sidewalls.  Avoid sidewalls with windows. 
Do not have speaker firing across objects (sofa) on their way to the listening position.
Do not automatically put speakers close to the front wall.  They will usually sound best a ways out. 

It is a beautiful room but I wouldn't recommend investing any money into the audio equipment until the room issues can be worked out or a new room found.

+1

Up to a year ago I used a small rack (Ikea night stand) with the near-field setup in my dedicated room, but found a piece of leftover shelving in the garage, and having a small/simple system added spikes and moved my gear to the floor (about 4 feet from the front wall).  So it looks like a very wide/cheap amp stand that is shared by multiple pieces.  My inspiration was reading about reducing bass energy (that collects at surface intersections) away from my gear but the real benefit is that now I have a clear space for the soundstage to more fully develop.  I'd heard the same effect years ago in a small/casual HT system that had a CRT TV but didn't expect similar results with my speakers roughly 6 feet from the front wall.

Additional benefits:  shorter speaker cable needed; full access to the back of the gear; easier to keep all the wiring apart; can reach the gear from my MacBook Air laptop (that I use for music source) with a 10 ft. USB cable.

[rollo]

OUCH !!
I guess I am supposed to be offended by such a statement.
Sorry to inform you I am not.
I am very proud of what I have accomplished in driver design, and I am proud of how I have gotten there, by countless hours of building drivers and exploring alternative methods, and attempting to understand how and why they do what they do. And not just reading books written by others who say this is how it must be done and feeling satisfied when I reach the same conclusions they have reached. 

Too bad your not closer to Long Island NY...In the event you do come up this way or come to CAF 2017 be sure to look me up.
I would be glad to give you a lesson in speaker designing by ear first and measurement second.
But then again considering your stubbornness to accept something different, it would probably fall on deaf ears.
Sleep well, I am sure your system measures perfectly !!

Greg

   Greg's speakers are a wonder IMHO. Mated with a good tubed amp or SS beast one is in for a treat. I have heard and seen all of GTA speakers from the get go. To date the latest and greatest. The tonality and harmonic structure are close to real life. Dynamic, explosive yet mature is character.
   Other panel speakers can not match the sheer dynamics of this speaker. Like rock and planars ? this IS the speaker for you.

charles

[Hugh]

Bottom lines:

1.)  There is no perfect loudspeaker.

2.)  The room and speaker/listening position setup have a much bigger effect on speaker performance than most would like to admit.

3.)  Most audiophiles buy gear based at least in part on visual aspects and to be entertained versus to gain an accurate reproduction of what the recording professionals hear.

+1.