STA 9 Fuse Upgrade

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Armaegis

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #40 on: 26 Sep 2017, 03:15 am »

This tells you that such a theory is not true...ITS DIRECTIONAL...   

Um... just because a meter can tell you that wires are hooked up incorrectly does not mean that AC current is directional.

srb

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #41 on: 26 Sep 2017, 03:43 am »
AC power is non-directional and audio signals (low-level, line-level and speaker) are non-directional AC as well.

DC power supply sections (rectified AC or battery power) would be directional, and of course one could experiment with the orientation of a non-directional device (fuse) that might be used in them.  You would also then want to make sure that any point-to-point wiring that might be used in the DC power section of the component was also installed in the appropriate direction.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #42 on: 26 Sep 2017, 05:08 am »
AC is not directional.....   Something in the flow is, though.   What it is?

  I have a vintage Namiki DF-100 direction finder that was touted years ago in Stereophile - or Absolute Sound.  It lets you know which plug orientation if the optimal one. It was a tweak that was popular while we still had two pronged AC audio equipment. It was repeatable and sounded better when the correct AC orientation was determined for all components in the chain. It was one of my earliest tweaking experiences.

This link  tells you how to determine the correct AC plug orientation using a VOM... I have tried this method as well. It is demonstrable and repeatable.   https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/   

Armaegis

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #43 on: 26 Sep 2017, 04:04 pm »
This link  tells you how to determine the correct AC plug orientation using a VOM... I have tried this method as well. It is demonstrable and repeatable.   https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/   

Holy crap the link actually suggests to change the polarity of the outlet... DO NOT DO THIS.

Also, the live line can also likely be checked with somethings like this: https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.non-contact-voltage-tester.1000664603.html

While *technically* if you only have a two-prong plug then it doesn't matter on the orientation because the circuits within only care about voltage difference between the wires and current will flow either way. HOWEVER, the reason for proper orientation and later the addition of the safety ground is that when something screws up, the neutral and ground lines are on the chassis side of the device, which means if you-the-operator somehow become the conduit to ground, nothing bad happens. The circuit still doesn't care which is which, but your body certainly does.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #44 on: 26 Sep 2017, 04:21 pm »
Holy crap the link actually suggests to change the polarity of the outlet... DO NOT DO THIS.

I agree.  As long as the AC outlet was wired correctly. That is why APC UPS units check for correct AC wiring.  Some were not hooked up correctly.

But it proves a point.  The argument is that AC has no direction?    That problem right there tells us something is not being seen correctly.   

I know a technician who  said he has seen several manufacturers who end up wiring their components connection AC backwards.  I think in the USA we may call it AC phase.  The terms polarity and phase get confused often.

I personally do not desire to get bogged down in technical terms when empirically you get positive and negative audio effects by simply doing something.. and using a technically wrong explanation..  Its like the old argument that digital is only about pluses and minuses.

Armaegis

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #45 on: 26 Sep 2017, 06:01 pm »
But it proves a point.  The argument is that AC has no direction?    That problem right there tells us something is not being seen correctly.   

The circuit technically only cares about the voltage difference between the two wires. Current flows both ways in both wires, that part is still true.

However, a potential source of noise/interference is the electric fields generated. Ideally the wires with high and/or alternating voltage are kept confined in tight controlled lines, and everything else is kept at ground to minimize and shield. If you accidentally flip your wires, the circuit for the most part doesn't care and current still flows both ways in both wires. However, you'll likely also be generating a lot more electrical noise.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #46 on: 26 Sep 2017, 06:39 pm »
Electrical noise is the issue.  What ever is causing it to be abated when the correct plug orientation is determined is for the engineers to figure out. 

Correct plug orientation effects the sound quality. As well, as incorrect.  I like to keep away arguments over words when what is being heard can be repeated and demonstrated.

Speedskater

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #47 on: 26 Sep 2017, 06:49 pm »
Because a component's power transformer is wound asymmetrically with respect to the chassis, there is more leakage noise current from one terminal of the transformer than the other. Skilled circuit designers know this and assure that the power line Neutral is connected to this transformer terminal. However you can not do this by swapping the power line Hot & Neutral. It has to be done internally after the fuse and on/off switch.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #48 on: 26 Sep 2017, 07:17 pm »
Because a component's power transformer is wound asymmetrically with respect to the chassis, there is more leakage noise current from one terminal of the transformer than the other. Skilled circuit designers know this and assure that the power line Neutral is connected to this transformer terminal. However you can not do this by swapping the power line Hot & Neutral. It has to be done internally after the fuse and on/off switch.

On one German made unit I did that to.  I reversed the cables after the fuse and switch. I told the manufacturer about it.   With one power supply I got on Ebay from Singapore I was not so lucky.  It was prefabricated and all the parts were made to fit together. I could reverse the power cord but realized that the fuse would be on the wrong terminal... I contacted the manufacturer. He seemed not to care too much. Most likely, he probably figures most people would never know what to look for.
« Last Edit: 28 Sep 2017, 06:15 am by Genez »

RafaPolit

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #49 on: 28 Sep 2017, 05:30 am »
Rafa, I was a non believer in cables and fuses until I heard it for myself...

Thanks for your perspective on the matter.  I am always willing to be proved wrong, but given that I haven't got the money to pay for a $600 USB cable, two $2000 balanced cables and $2000 to connect the speakers, plus power cables and fueses for other $3000, perhaps it plays to my interests that I don't believe they will make a difference! LOL! Call it wishful thinking!

But now seriously, I would gladly do some tests to actually see if there is or not a placebo effect.  The few tests I was able to do, proved them to be so: the changing of lower and upper bindIng posts on the speakers, and the 'beaks' to absorb vibration and 'completely change the sound color'.

They both proved to be wild goose chases.  So I'm 0 for two on the sound voodoo realm.

I don't want to sound harsh, I just want physics or common sense to actually support the claims made by designers / sellers of equipment. I actually applaud approaches like yours where you test and validate instead of just spending (or wasting?) money.  You know which worked best for you, and that is really great.

As for me, I have not a $40 'cheap' cable on my system, I have $1 one. Literally paid $1 for it where they sold the RPi3 cases.  It's sending 1s and 0s.  So if some one tells me about jitter, sure, I believe that. But the DAC is able to decode those 1 and 0s, so what information is kept on the $600 cable? Which 1s represent the clear highs or the deep bass on the music that is so much better preserved on other cables?

I'd agree that a better cable could prevent pops, or clicks, or hum passed as current via the 5v line.  But if music is 'in sync' and sounding, really are there 'better' 1 and 0 streams of the same string of values? I can't wrap my mind around that.

Same goes for anything behind the analog processing, like power cables and fuses. Analog cables, on the other hand, could be prone to noise, or better fit to carry specific wave lengths which would affect sound.  That I could agree on.  I'm still not paying $2000 for that difference.

Maybe I'm just thick.  I just want to know the science behind things and every time someone tries to sell me air, I get suspicious.

Thanks again for sharing your research,
Rafa.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #50 on: 28 Sep 2017, 06:31 am »
Note that the fuse was in the speaker output of a power amplifier. Not in the line voltage AC supply nor in the DC power circuit.

That was about how they solved the problem with speaker output fuses....  But the next thread covered AC power line fuses as well.
 http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/

FWIW....   PS Audio products all come with audiophile fuses as stock.  For a while they even sold their own audiophile fuses at pretty low prices...  I found out when I contacted them asking about a replacement fuse for the DAC I owned at that time. They sent me a few the next day to make sure I had a replacement if ever needed.  Needless to say.  They were not glass. They were ceramic and were gold capped.   Put one of them in a Nuprime HPA9 because it uses the same value,  and it improved the sound instantly.
« Last Edit: 28 Sep 2017, 04:34 pm by Genez »

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #51 on: 28 Sep 2017, 06:41 am »


But now seriously, I would gladly do some tests to actually see if there is or not a placebo effect.  The few tests I was able to do, proved them to be so: the changing of lower and upper bindIng posts on the speakers, and the 'beaks' to absorb vibration and 'completely change the sound color'.

They both proved to be wild goose chases.  So I'm 0 for two on the sound voodoo realm.

I don't want to sound harsh, I just want physics or common sense to actually support the claims made by designers / sellers of equipment. I actually applaud approaches like yours where you test and validate instead of just spending (or wasting?) money.  You know which worked best for you, and that is really great.

As for me, I have not a $40 'cheap' cable on my system, I have $1 one. Literally paid $1 for it where they sold the RPi3 cases.  It's sending 1s and 0s.  So if some one tells me about jitter, sure, I believe that. But the DAC is able to decode those 1 and 0s, so what information is kept on the $600 cable? Which 1s represent the clear highs or the deep bass on the music that is so much better preserved on other cables?

IMHO... until you get better cables?  Any other kind of tweak will be wasting your time. You won't be able to hear it.

The first place I would tweak would be the cables before anything else. The 1 and 0's theory is bunk. For, no two DAC's sound the same. And, they sound different as different quality USB cables are switched to . If your interconnects are poor quality?  Getting a eight hundred dollar USB cable will not sound good.  For no cable is an island unto itself.  The weakest link in your audio chain will nullify its strongest. 

Speedskater

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #52 on: 28 Sep 2017, 04:09 pm »
That was about how they solved the problem with speaker output fuses....  But the next thread covered AC power line fuses as well.
 http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/
....................................... .......................
What is it in that page that we are interested in?  Now SoundMind did make some good comments.
* * * * * * * * *
I went to an earlier page "High-end audio pie" and it was engineering nonsense.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #53 on: 28 Sep 2017, 04:31 pm »
What is it in that page that we are interested in?  Now SoundMind did make some good comments.
* * * * * * * * *

I told you it was different about...

You said...

Note that the fuse was in the speaker output of a power amplifier. Not in the line voltage AC supply nor in the DC power circuit.

Here again.. My response was about what you said was not mentioned. For it was mentioned in the next thread.


That was about how they solved the problem with speaker output fuses....  But the next thread covered AC power line fuses as well.

 http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/

Speedskater

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #54 on: 28 Sep 2017, 05:11 pm »
The only thing of interest in any of those 'psaudio' pages was putting the audio output fuse in the feedback loop. But I recall others also doing that way back when. So how many of the fuses in these 2017 fuse threads are placed in the power amps audio output?

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #55 on: 28 Sep 2017, 05:22 pm »
The only thing of interest in any of those 'psaudio' pages was putting the audio output fuse in the feedback loop. But I recall others also doing that way back when. So how many of the fuses in these 2017 fuse threads are placed in the power amps audio output?

Not interested in that.   I listen with an ST10.   Its the AC IEC input fuses that are easy to change and make a nice difference if your system allows for it to be heard.  That's all.   If I had an amp with a power output fuse I would concentrate on that.  I once had a vintage amp set up that way.  Its a shame that this issue was not understood at that time.

Speedskater

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Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #56 on: 28 Sep 2017, 07:37 pm »
You should stop reading those 'psaudio' pages. They have so many basic electrical errors, that it's easy to get confused.

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #57 on: 28 Sep 2017, 10:32 pm »
You should stop reading those 'psaudio' pages. They have so many basic electrical errors, that it's easy to get confused.

I think you're the one causing me confusion in this case. 

My ears do not confuse me.

srb

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #58 on: 28 Sep 2017, 11:38 pm »
My ears do not confuse me.

Ears are quite reliable.  It's the translation in the brain that provides confusion and obfuscation.

45% of audiophiles hear a difference when there is none and 45% hear no difference when there is one.  The remaining 10% are only accurate 50% of the time.  ;)

Genez

Re: STA 9 Fuse Upgrade
« Reply #59 on: 29 Sep 2017, 12:56 am »
Ears are quite reliable.  It's the translation in the brain that provides confusion and obfuscation.

45% of audiophiles hear a difference when there is none and 45% hear no difference when there is one.  The remaining 10% are only accurate 50% of the time.  ;)

I used to sell audio. I watched certain salesmen telling customers what to listen for.  Those people should not be the rule for those who can hear.  Especially musicians (like myself)  who know what real music sounds like.   

I could run a 'fair test' for listeners where they would find themselves angry for what they were subjected to before as the means to know what sounds good.  Its like exposing fake news with truth.  Certain things will be heard if demonstrated in a right way.  Not in some rushed way in a room that is not ones own.