Next Generation Amps - SST3?

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SoundGame

Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« on: 27 Jan 2015, 05:32 pm »
My understanding is that the first launch of the SST-series was in 2002 and the SST2 series was launched in 2009 - correct me if I'm wrong with these dates.  I believe that the SST2 circuitry was first implemented in the 28B and 7B models and then eventually found its way down and across the whole series of SST A/B amplifiers.

So there was 7 years between the SST and SST2, can we expect a new series of amplifiers in 2016 - 7 years after the SST2?  If so, I expect a revisit of the circuits would already be planned in 2015 and possibly underway.

I truly love my 4B-SST2 and have considered moving to a pair of 7's but given the age of the SST2 series, I'm wondering if holding off for a year or so might be the best thing to do - to upgrade with a pair of 7B-SST3's.

Any timeline on when we can expect to see the next "evolutionary" step in Bryston amplification?  Thanks.


James Tanner

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #1 on: 27 Jan 2015, 05:35 pm »
My understanding is that the first launch of the SST-series was in 2002 and the SST2 series was launched in 2009 - correct me if I'm wrong with these dates.  I believe that the SST2 circuitry was first implemented in the 28B and 7B models and then eventually found its way down and across the whole series of SST A/B amplifiers.

So there was 7 years between the SST and SST2, can we expect a new series of amplifiers in 2016 - 7 years after the SST2?  If so, I expect a revisit of the circuits would already be planned in 2015 and possibly underway.

I truly love my 4B-SST2 and have considered moving to a pair of 7's but given the age of the SST2 series, I'm wondering if holding off for a year or so might be the best thing to do - to upgrade with a pair of 7B-SST3's.

Any timeline on when we can expect to see the next "evolutionary" step in Bryston amplification?  Thanks.

Hi

We are always looking and experimenting but once you are shooting below par it's hard to shave a few more strokes off.  :)

james
« Last Edit: 27 Jan 2015, 07:49 pm by James Tanner »

SoundGame

Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #2 on: 27 Jan 2015, 06:08 pm »
 :lol: I don't disagree. 

Where I think there is opportunity, is not necessarily in raising the performance on an absolute level but rather bringing some of the strengths of the the kings of the hill the 7B, 14B and 28B to the 4B range - afterall, the 4B is the bread & butter best-seller. 

It would be great to have a 4B in its current form and facotr gain such things as:

1) Extreme load stability - i.e. stable continuous power into 2 ohms (like that of the 7B)
2) Power conditioning / filtration design, similar to that of the larger amps
3) Greater capacitance

Keeping everything else equal - would such result in a higher performing amplifier?  Better sounding - perhaps. 

The questions is - are there opportunities to improve in such areas while not taking the price of the 4B up to the 14B / 7B, price point?  Can such be accomplished within say an 8 to 10 % increase in price?  For marketing reasons, I'm sure some increase in RMS output power would need to be shown but a 10% power increase would likely satisfy that, as well.

I know my 4B, what I've heard with the 7 and 28 is just a greater sense of ease in dynamics which also translates to a smoothness across the whole spectrum - they just sound like bigger amps while not giving up on any nimbleness; but paying twice the price of the 4B to take a step closer to that is not possible for many. 

James Tanner

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #3 on: 27 Jan 2015, 06:26 pm »
:lol: I don't disagree. 

Where I think there is opportunity, is not necessarily in raising the performance on an absolute level but rather bringing some of the strengths of the the kings of the hill the 7B, 14B and 28B to the 4B range - afterall, the 4B is the bread & butter best-seller. 

It would be great to have a 4B in its current form and facotr gain such things as:

1) Extreme load stability - i.e. stable continuous power into 2 ohms (like that of the 7B)
2) Power conditioning / filtration design, similar to that of the larger amps
3) Greater capacitance

Keeping everything else equal - would such result in a higher performing amplifier?  Better sounding - perhaps. 

The questions is - are there opportunities to improve in such areas while not taking the price of the 4B up to the 14B / 7B, price point?  Can such be accomplished within say an 8 to 10 % increase in price?  For marketing reasons, I'm sure some increase in RMS output power would need to be shown but a 10% power increase would likely satisfy that, as well.

I know my 4B, what I've heard with the 7 and 28 is just a greater sense of ease in dynamics which also translates to a smoothness across the whole spectrum - they just sound like bigger amps while not giving up on any nimbleness; but paying twice the price of the 4B to take a step closer to that is not possible for many.

Hi

Yes increasing the power supply size and number of output transistors to drive more difficult loads is exactly what we are doing now as you move from the 2.5B to the 28B.

One issue that we have found is the number of outputs do affect the transient capability of the output stage so simply adding more and more outputs really has pluses and minus's.  We try to keep the output stage as simple as possible but still provide high instantaneous current and voltage delivery. Some of the really large amplifiers I have played around with sound smooth but lack the speed and quickness I prefer.

james

95Dyna

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #4 on: 27 Jan 2015, 06:43 pm »
Hi James,

In the absence of the hypothetical SST3 series have there been any performance enhancing upgrades to the 28B SST2 and the post s/n 001825 7BSST2 since the '08-'09 introduction?  If so can existing units be upgraded?

James Tanner

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #5 on: 27 Jan 2015, 07:48 pm »
Hi James,

In the absence of the hypothetical SST3 series have there been any performance enhancing upgrades to the 28B SST2 and the post s/n 001825 7BSST2 since the '08-'09 introduction?  If so can existing units be upgraded?

The only changes were a few years ago when we went with the new transformers and some input capacitors but nothing since then.

james

95Dyna

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #6 on: 27 Jan 2015, 08:08 pm »
The only changes were a few years ago when we went with the new transformers and some input capacitors but nothing since then.

james

Great!  My 7B's are still current @ S/N's 001850 and 001851  :thumb:  My only worries now are I only have 15 years left on my warranty  :lol:

larevoj

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jan 2015, 09:17 am »
Hi

Yes increasing the power supply size and number of output transistors to drive more difficult loads is exactly what we are doing now as you move from the 2.5B to the 28B.

One issue that we have found is the number of outputs do affect the transient capability of the output stage so simply adding more and more outputs really has pluses and minus's.  We try to keep the output stage as simple as possible but still provide high instantaneous current and voltage delivery. Some of the really large amplifiers I have played around with sound smooth but lack the speed and quickness I prefer.

james

Hi James, I love the speed of the 4BSST2 and I too agree your points. Currently I am not really in need for more power and the 4B sits in a  comfortable power band I am after. Perhaps a higher bias into Class A wattage is what I am after and with that there maybe some change necessary in the 4B - what that is I don't know.

The 4B has been winning customer for Bryston for a while now...It doesn't need to a refresh for the entire line but surely there is something we can do for the 4B - It deserve to be honored.

JL


James Tanner

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jan 2015, 11:00 am »
HI

Higher Class A bias would not provide any performance benefit over the current quad complimentary output stage we currently use.

james

Bryston’s Proprietary Output Stage

When the transistor was first invented, it functioned only in one polarity.  That meant that there was asymmetry in amplification circuits, resulting in distortion of the signal.  Later, the other polarity of transistor was developed, making it possible to have a symmetrical, ‘complementary’ circuit, thus reducing distortion.

Unfortunately, these opposite polarity transistors are not exact matches to each other.  They have differences in bandwidth, differences in threshold Voltage, and differences in the way their respective gains track both Voltage and current changes.  Thus, there continued to be small variations in symmetry, revealing subtle but audible amounts of distortion, even in supposedly ‘complementary-symmetry’ amplifiers.  These distortions were worse with increasing frequency, giving a characteristic haze or graininess to transistor amplifier sound.

In most of the amplifier circuitry, the above asymmetries can be compensated for with proper design, but the output stage of a power amplifier is in direct contact with the speaker load, and thus experiences large variations in both Voltage and current with the signal. It is thus subject to ‘worst-case’ conditions for the asymmetrical distortions left in these opposite-polarity transistors.  It was for this reason that Bryston developed the Quad-Complementary output stage. This nomenclature stems partly from the fact that it requires at least four transistors to assemble the final section of the output stage, one of each polarity on both sides of the push-pull output section.

In this way, it became possible to eliminate almost all of the remaining asymmetry in the output stage of an amplifier, because each transistor is paired with another of its opposite number. This creates what amounts to a compound device, displaying the mixed characteristics of both.  Thus, the upper and lower halves of the output stage match each other’s dynamic characteristics exactly, at both high and low levels. Signal distortion is virtually eliminated.

This circuit also displays advantages in some other areas, like faster response and lower input drive current for the same output power. Those characteristics give the amplifier lower distortion in all areas, but especially in the important high frequencies.  Thus, a Bryston amplifier does not display the characteristic high frequency haze or grain often heard in other transistor amps.
 

SoundGame

Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Feb 2015, 03:26 pm »
Hi

We are always looking and experimenting but once you are shooting below par it's hard to shave a few more strokes off.  :)

james

Hi James,

The stated signal-to-noise ratio on all SST2 amps, even the 28B is 113dB/23dB gain AND 110db/29dB gain.  A few reputable manufacturers of amplifiers have stated specifications of 120dB (e.g. Anthem) and even 130dB+ SNR ratings (e.g. Hegel, Benchmark). 
What is the key barrier to increasing SNR with the SST2 amplifiers, holding all else equal? 
If the objective was to make the most silent amplifier - with the highest SNR, what are the trade-offs or sacrifices in other areas of the design that might need to be made? 
What is the greatest source of noise in the SST2 design - or the part of the circuit that limits the SNR that can be achieved?

Thanks.

redbook

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Feb 2015, 04:10 pm »
  Very good questions  Soundgame. I have wondered this myself when reading specs on other hi end amps. :scratch:

Rod_S

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Feb 2015, 04:38 pm »
Years ago I had an Anthem MCA50 and like you mentioned it had better specs than my Brystons however I could always hear hiss out of my speakers so I guess specs aren't everything. There was something with that amp's design that contributed to noise, or so it would seem.

Grit

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Re: Next Generation Amps - SST3?
« Reply #12 on: 17 Feb 2015, 08:46 pm »
I've been pulling my hair out for almost a year on looking for one amp that would do what I wanted (in 5 channel, it's tough). I made a spreadsheet with brands and specs, hoping it'd help me determine which amps might best meet my need.

I've tried a few amps with paper specs (including that Anthem) that are as good as or better than Bryston specs. The only spec I've found so far that seems to matter is that *I* like what more power does for *my* speakers, even at lower volume levels.

I"m sure some of those stats (slew rate, damping, capacitance, etc) are relevant somehow, but there doesn't seem to be a pattern in their values (to me) that indicates quality of sound.