AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: pstrisik on 9 May 2015, 06:55 pm
-
I'll fill in when I have a bit of time later today. Anyone care to guess?
.......Peter
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=120700)
-
It's obviously a refrigerator with the freezer compartment on the bottom. I'll take two.
That's mighty nice looking.
-
It's obviously a refrigerator with the freezer compartment on the bottom. I'll take two.
That's mighty nice looking.
Nice try, but you're cold. :roll:
DBC may have a good guess if he's around.
Errands... then I'll post some details. I realize I'm more excited about the project than others will be, but I hope it is at least interesting!
........Peter
-
The weather here (Willamette Valley) is so warm and dry this year. Today is more like July's weather. Cool sounds nice.
Is it an 8" or a 12" on the bottom? Knowing this will give me a little size perspective.
Michael
-
Ok, I'll guess a 6.5" up top and a 12" down low. I like the matching veneer top to bottom, looks nice!
-
Mid century stackable washer and dryer? :lol:
-
I like the washer dryer metaphor!
The top is none other than the Super Alnico Monitor. Typically, Louis makes them 11" wide by 14" deep by 20" high. He recommended reversing that to give a wider baffle similar to the XRS. It doesn't quite look like one would expect on a monitor though. But, since we are putting a box below with the same width and depth, overall it has the height to allow the wide baffle.
The bottoms are powered 8" woofers. Louis graciously agreed to build matching cabinets for Rythmik made woofers and plate amps that I supplied. The bottoms are 14"w x 11"d x 13"h.
The bases are 1.5" as are the platform separating the cabinets. The tops will be granite slabs that I will add once they are up here.
Note the new logo "coin" medallion that I'm sure Louis will unveil soon.
I haven't made a mockup for what I will likely do instead of grills. I've recently started listening to my Super 7 XRS Alnicos without the grills and realized the improvement immediately. So, I plan to make bar style driver protectors that will integrate with four of the six screws that secure each of the drivers.
Now, this design as you see it gives me an actively bi-amped, 2 way system. I will connect dual pre-amp outs to each amp (the main tube amp and the plate amps). The Rythmik plate amps do not have high level inputs, so the other method isn't available. However, I plan to filter low frequency from the main tube amp and thereby the monitors, so line level to both is going to be the way for me.
I said these are active bi-amp speakers, which they are, but wait, there's more! I already am running super-tweeters that I can describe in more detail, but this post is too long as it is already! And.... I've been running a pair of Rythmik F12 subs. With all running I'll be quad-amped, baaaby!
One more detail about the active woofers before I sign off (movie & pizza time coming up). Brian Ding, the Rythmik designer, modified these plate amps specifically to make mid-woofers. There are settings for use without a sub, but the setting I'm interested in cuts lows at 50Hz with 24db (forth order) slope down. The crossover setting is a continuous knob up to 200Hz. So the subs will do very deep duty :no_speak: and I have the option with the woofer for them to cover 50Hz anywhere up to 200Hz. This is a very well executed servo design for which he is known and the drivers are a light paper with foam surrounds - magnets are hugh too!
Ok... enough for now! If you read to here without skipping, then BOOYA!!
-
Sounds great, only thing I would have done differently is gone with 15" on the bottom instead of 8" :icon_twisted:
I am very interested to see what you think about different crossover points, I will guess a lower crossover around 50 Hz will be best for most music and listening levels but I could see adjusting it up to around 150 Hz for bass heavy music at higher volumes, it will be a nice option.
I'm pretty much sold on active speakers with high definition DSP. The positives outweigh the negatives and, if you want, you can always turn it off and just play the single driver by itsself.
-
Peter,
Are you expecting to have them by the time I'm there?
John
-
Sounds great, only thing I would have done differently is gone with 15" on the bottom instead of 8" :icon_twisted:
I am very interested to see what you think about different crossover points, I will guess a lower crossover around 50 Hz will be best for most music and listening levels but I could see adjusting it up to around 150 Hz for bass heavy music at higher volumes, it will be a nice option.
I'm pretty much sold on active speakers with high definition DSP. The positives outweigh the negatives and, if you want, you can always turn it off and just play the single driver by itsself.
If I wasn't running full-fledged subs, I may have looked at 12" on the bottom. I think my bass will be adequate with dual 12's and dual 8's though!
I will be using an analog active xo. It is tempting to play with the miniDSP, but maybe after everything settles down.
If using the xo, I will likely cross higher than 50 (the 8" active woofers don't go below 50, so it doesn't make sense to cross lower than that. I will cross at 50 from the woofers to the subwoofers. If the xo negatively affects the sound from the monitors, I will end up running them full range anyway and have the woofers gently augment the mid-bass range.
I'm hoping for perfect blending between the monitors / woofers and between the woofers / subs. The Marchand xo is designed with 24db slope for optimal blending with the Linkwitz-Riley specification. No phase issues and designed for a flat transition:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=120755)
The Rythmik mid-woofer amp has high pass at 50Hz with 24db and the Rythmik F12's have low pass at 50Hz with 24db, so same benefit at that transition point.
But "option" is the key, as you say. This modular approach gives me Super Alnico Monitors that I can run full range by themselves or any of several other configurations like: SAMs with woofers and with monitors running either full range or with low frequencies cut, SAMs with subs only, etc, etc.
.....Peter
-
Peter,
Are you expecting to have them by the time I'm there?
John
Hi John,
Good chance. Louis has said something like 6 weeks (no guarantee). That would be about 5 weeks from now. I think we have about double that before your visit. If they arrive shortly before you, I hope I get them broken in in time!
........Peter
-
Great!! Looking forward to listening to them!
-
Oh, ok... I thought the 8"ers were also covering the same frequencies as your 12" subs. Looks very interesting, keep us updated!
-
Maybe this will make it easier to digest: :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=120795)
Tweeters, btw, are behind mains pointing upwards.
........Peter
-
The weather here (Willamette Valley) is so warm and dry this year. Today is more like July's weather. Cool sounds nice.
Is it an 8" or a 12" on the bottom? Knowing this will give me a little size perspective.
Michael
Michael,
Sorry missed part of your post.
Dimensions are: overall ~39"h with cap and feet, 14"w, 11"d. The monitors are 20"h. The woofers are 13" high. The base and middle platform are 1.5".
60 degrees here today at 3pm with glorious sun ('till about 11pm so far this season :D).
.....Peter
-
I just love it when it comes time to see this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=130273) :eyebrows:
Long time coming! Starting with the monitors - powered woofers still in the shop.
.......Peter
-
Looking forward to your follow-up, especially since different shipping schedules will allow you to evaluate the monitors without the woofers first.
-
I think that'll turn out great. Kinda funny a single driver turned into a 4-way but I think it'll preserve a great deal of the single driver experience.
-
I think that'll turn out great. Kinda funny a single driver turned into a 4-way but I think it'll preserve a great deal of the single driver experience.
That's my thinking. It preserves the single driver experience as the monitors still cover ~150 on up. The rest is enhancing extension.
I did pick up the monitors and dropped them off at home. But it's now only 1:20pm here, so I've got a few hours left before I can go play! :(
I'll take customary unboxing photos and post them later. I know I always love to drool over photos from others!
......Peter
-
They sure are pretty!
Been listening for about an hour and know that these are my keepers. Still adjusting a bit, but hear more of lots that I wanted more of. I've turned down my supertweets as these drivers have more upper extension.
I'll try to post photos tomorrow. Gonna get a bit more listening in before my wife is home. We then get in our nightly show (things like The Good Wife, The Wire, Mad Men, etc.). I'm looking forward to how they sound with the video. I've found that the better with two channel audio, the better in home theater as well.
Woohoo!
-
Here are some photos of unpacking and setup on my homemade stands. The stands are made from Home Depot materials. Metal tubes are filled with sand. Base is 1.5" solid red oak. Each stand weighs 22lbs! But, they are temporary as the monitors will sit on the powered woofers after they arrive.
You can see the Super Alnico Monitors and Original Super 7 XRS' side by side, both in zebrawood.
More listening last night was very satisfying. Compared to the Super 7 Alnicos, these have even better imaging, definition of instruments, transparency, high frequency extension. Slight edginess that may be due to need for more break in. They had 20 hours from the factory. About 25 now. Should have 50 by the end of the weekend. I've done tons of tube rolling to optimize with the 7's. It may be that I just need a slightly warmer tube in one spot or another. But, it's great to have the confidence about these for the long run. Very minimal doubts compared to any newly acquired equipment probably ever.
One thing I notice is some experiential understanding of what is meant when "speed" is mentioned. I noticed almost immediately that the music was more alive. It seemed that the speakers were keeping up with the music more than I've heard prior. I guess it is that thing called PRaT (pace, rhythm, and timing).
I also noticed more dynamics (micro, macro, I'm not sure). It's like more use of dynamic range - illustrations are when a pianist emphasizes a note/chord or when the tom-tom is struck. It just jumps out more.
Thank you Louis; you are a master!
Anyway....... here are some photos to peruse:
(http://i.imgur.com/taM3uIGh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/pYJFdTrh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/E470UoAh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4ZGHkUzh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JTaz5XQh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KksGmRMh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/gjfbAN6l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/XdWdIbVh.jpg)
-
:thumb: Real Nice!!!!
The level of finish and performance of Omega is astounding.
-
Lovely speakers Peter - hard to beat that Zebrawood. I noticed you have a Panamax line conditioner like mine. I've had mine for years - named it "Judy Blue Eyes". :lol:
-
Those came out beautiful! Congrats!
-
Lovely speakers Peter - hard to beat that Zebrawood. I noticed you have a Panamax line conditioner like mine. I've had mine for years - named it "Judy Blue Eyes". :lol:
Yeah, since I no longer have a VCR that will blink 12:00
the Panamax now serves as my alert that we had a power outage. I keep it dark. When the power blinks off, the Panamax comes back in that vibrant blue!
........Peter
-
Slight edginess that may be due to need for more break in.
Peter, mine had no edginess right out of the box. All Omegas are extremely transparent and will reflect everything upline. Different people have different experiences with the same model speaker because likely no two people have the same combinations of equipment, or room acoustics. My Alnico Monitors are smooth as butter top to bottom, yet dig so deep into a recording. My guess is, like you say, tubes - a little rolling here and there might smooth things out. :thumb:
BTW, what are you running for a source? We so often focus on amp and speaker synergy, but not on the equally important component, the source, whether digital or analog.
-
Peter, mine had no edginess right out of the box. All Omegas are extremely transparent and will reflect everything upline. Different people have different experiences with the same model speaker because likely no two people have the same combinations of equipment, or room acoustics. My Alnico Monitors are smooth as butter top to bottom, yet dig so deep into a recording. My guess is, like you say, tubes - a little rolling here and there might smooth things out. :thumb:
BTW, what are you running for a source? We so often focus on amp and speaker synergy, but not on the equally important component, the source, whether digital or analog.
Rob.... Louis emailed and said to expect smoothing with some hours. We'll see. I have so much flexibility with tubes in Dennis Had's amp, that dialing in for my taste will be no problem.
My source is a Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6. Basically a streamer with their DAC Magic Plus built in. I have all my music ripped to NAS. I did try a half dozen DACs over a couple of years and this was the most pleasing, least irritating (and best imaging) of all I tried. I need to update it because of the streaming technology, but I'm going to try their Azure 851N streamer. Higher quality parts and supposedly even better DAC. We'll see about that. If I still like the sound of the SM6 DAC, I can return it to Crutchfield and get the CXN - the later generation of what I have now and same DAC inside. (DAC Magic Plus uses dual Wolfson chips, the 851N uses dual Analog Devices chips).
These were also my initial impressions. Give me a couple of days of listening to settle in. Sometimes just having something sounding different takes an adjustment.
........Peter
-
Those are beautiful Peter, I can't wait to see them with the bass modules installed.
-
I'm there now!
Edge is gone - volume of sound bloomed - 98% fallen into place. It took some more hours, one switch of a rectifier and brain adjustment.
No lookin' back now!
I always tell myself to wait a few days before posting because I know it and I will settle in much more. .... But I can't help it!
:lol:
-
Congratulations Peter,
They're a great speaker. I sure love the sound of mine. :thumb:
-
Yes, with the Alinicos, I noticed in particular an apparently larger dynamic range swing and greater resolution than any other speaker I had. The dynamic range and resolution made the Alnico superb for me.
Here are some photos of unpacking and setup on my homemade stands. The stands are made from Home Depot materials. Metal tubes are filled with sand. Base is 1.5" solid red oak. Each stand weighs 22lbs! But, they are temporary as the monitors will sit on the powered woofers after they arrive.
You can see the Super Alnico Monitors and Original Super 7 XRS' side by side, both in zebrawood.
More listening last night was very satisfying. Compared to the Super 7 Alnicos, these have even better imaging, definition of instruments, transparency, high frequency extension. Slight edginess that may be due to need for more break in. They had 20 hours from the factory. About 25 now. Should have 50 by the end of the weekend. I've done tons of tube rolling to optimize with the 7's. It may be that I just need a slightly warmer tube in one spot or another. But, it's great to have the confidence about these for the long run. Very minimal doubts compared to any newly acquired equipment probably ever.
One thing I notice is some experiential understanding of what is meant when "speed" is mentioned. I noticed almost immediately that the music was more alive. It seemed that the speakers were keeping up with the music more than I've heard prior. I guess it is that thing called PRaT (pace, rhythm, and timing).
I also noticed more dynamics (micro, macro, I'm not sure). It's like more use of dynamic range - illustrations are when a pianist emphasizes a note/chord or when the tom-tom is struck. It just jumps out more.
Thank you Louis; you are a master!
Anyway....... here are some photos to peruse:
(http://i.imgur.com/taM3uIGh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/pYJFdTrh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/E470UoAh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4ZGHkUzh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JTaz5XQh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KksGmRMh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/gjfbAN6l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/XdWdIbVh.jpg)
-
Just an update on my experience........
Haven't received the woofer modules from Louis yet, but am enjoying the monitors immensely. Everything has fallen into place running them with the Marchand active xover at 90Hz (just with regular subs right now). Any signs of that initial edge is gone. I had turned down the supertweeters at first because of that, but I now have them turned back up (behind the monitors facing the ceiling as can be seen in a couple of the last photos above). Realism and imaging are just blissful. I haven't changed a tube in two weeks! (A sign of contentment for me :thumb:).
Hope to have an update and pics with the woofer modules soon.
If I get the motivation, I may try the Bantam Gold powering the monitors. It now powers the supertweeters, so it would be a bit of rearranging.
.......Peter
-
Peter, may I ask that you post a pic of your current speaker set-up? I presume the Super 7 XRS' are also there?
-
Peter, may I ask that you post a pic of your current speaker set-up? I presume the Super 7 XRS' are also there?
The next to the last photo is current with the monitors on my home made stands (waiting for the woofer modules, which will act as stands, like in the first post with the photoshop mockup). The Super 7 XRS' (alnicos) went back to Louis to be sold after he checks them over.
........Peter
-
At long last!
Here are some photos of my new woofer (mid-bass) modules that arrived yesterday. I have them physically set up, but not yet connected (darned work week!). I'll get connected, configured, integrated this weekend.
It may be placebo from my hopes and excitement, but I swear the monitors are shining even more set on the woofers as bases even without the woofers operating yet. They are only about an inch lower, compared to when they were on stands, and tilt back is very slight, but it seems like fullness and soundstage have increased along with that sense of transparency and finesse. I suppose it’s possible with the more solid bases and the slight tilt.
I have Herbie's fat dots between the woofers and monitors and between the monitors and top stone slabs.
More technical info about the overall strategy and design earlier in this thread.
Louis did an amazing job. Notice how the grain matches and runs continuous between top and bottom cabinets!
(Replies appreciated, but no need to quote the photos please)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136077)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136078)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136079)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136080)
-
WOW!!! Peter, are those ever nice. Jelly, jelly, jelly!!! :thumb:
-
If these were at the recent CES being exhibited by almost anyone but Louis, they'd be $50,000 a pair. Just check out Stereophile's coverage of CES 2016 and you'll see what I mean. This is no exaggeration.
-
Very nice! :thumb: I bet they sound exquisite.
$50,000? :roll: I doubt it.
-
$50,000? :roll: I doubt it.
Canada Rob,stop the B.S. it doesnt help Louis at all... :lol:
-
If these were at the recent CES being exhibited by almost anyone but Louis, they'd be $50,000 a pair. Just check out Stereophile's coverage of CES 2016 and you'll see what I mean. This is no exaggeration.
Maybe I should go to CES and exhibit them!
:nono: I ain't givin' them up! And I have full confidence that they will sound exquisite (thanks rajacat!) Feeding the confidence is the extreme flexibility in this design.
.............Peter
-
If these were at the recent CES being exhibited by almost anyone but Louis, they'd be $50,000 a pair. Just check out Stereophile's coverage of CES 2016 and you'll see what I mean. This is no exaggeration.
I guess a good rough comparison might by Salk's latest. His are two/three way, so not really in consideration. But he has comparable woodwork and incorporated powered Rythmik woofers in his tower design, the Exotica 3. Priced at ...... wait for it ........ more than $13,000 depending on choice of veneer.
..........Peter
-
Very nice! :thumb: I bet they sound exquisite.
$50,000? :roll: I doubt it.
In light of what was at CES, $50,000 isn't too far off. I'm not saying Peter's speakers are worth $50,000 - just drawing a comparison to what's out there and what the asking prices are.
$55,000 $100,000 $27,000 $15,890
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136100)
$155,250 $24,995 $40,000 $36,000 $29,900 $106,800
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136101)
-
Couple of things
1) those are rythmik bass units and not LC/Omega's own design? interesting....
2) the veneer is outstanding and the matching between the top and bottom is flawless.....wow
3) HOW MUCH....
-
Couple of things
1) those are rythmik bass units and not LC/Omega's own design? interesting....
2) the veneer is outstanding and the matching between the top and bottom is flawless.....wow
3) HOW MUCH....
1) Correct, rythmik bass drivers and plate amps. Not ordinary subs as described earlier. The amp is modified. It is limited to 30hz low extension but has a setting for 50hz 24db/octave HPF. They will handle 50hz to somewhere between 100 and 200 hz depending on setting on the Marchand active crossover.
2) Thanks I agree! They actually look better in person. The lense distorts the straight edges and highlights the gap between the cabinets which is really much less visible.
3) Let me check with Louis about posting prices. We are actually still working that out. It is atypical since I supplied the Rythmik drivers and amps. He built the cabinets for them along with the monitors. The 8" Rythmik driver is quite compatible on paper (still have to get them running to listen). Light paper cones, foam surrounds and his proprietary servo system, all of which together make for very fast speakers. I have a pair of his F12, 12" subs with plastic cones and rubber surrounds but the servo technology makes for fast, detailed, musical subs so I expect excellent results with the smaller, lighter drivers with massive magnets.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136155)
.........Peter
-
Peter, the matching of the grain is really amazing. It reflects incredible attention to detail.
What is sitting on top of the marble blocks atop the subs? Your super tweeters?
Looking forward to your impressions following this weekend.
-
Really awesome Peter, and the looks are veryvery nice. I feel a litttle need to go a little down the same road, atleast in the sense of adding a little in lower end. Our friend in Norwalk is a very good man. Keep postIng some more impressions. The monitors with and without subs, and maybe also compared to your former floorstanders. Will you also add the supertweeters?
-
Wow, congrats Peter!
Beautiful design and veneer choice as well, awesome! :thumb:
I also look forward to listening impressions...
-
I've never liked the appearance of large monitors on pole stands. They look out of proportion and insecure. The subs under the speaker solve two problems at once. They improve the aesthetics while providing a place for the subs without using more floor space.
-
Well, I'm up and running. Bottom line is that this arrangement has turned out fantastic! It was a bit of a rough start. Mostly as the Rythmik mid-bass drivers needed some break in. They were quite "chesty" for several days. It sure is hard not to jump to conclusions early on. I did hold off on posting this time!
The other aspect that made settling in slower is the need for integration, particularly between the monitors and mid-woofers: both xover frequency and volume level. I settled on 110 Hz for now. It seems that higher reduces imaging slightly (or it may just be the woofer level is a tad greater and encroaches a little too high in frequency). Lower loses some of the benefit of the woofers.
I'd say the two qualities that stand out are 1) a much larger and fuller feeling sound stage and 2) a tonal balance that runs up and down the scale more completely than I've heard. The integration seems pretty darn good right now. I don't hear different drivers at all. In fact, it seems that the woofers enhance the midrange as well. Seems to fill it out and define it more. I think the bigger sound stage is both a help in the system sounding integrated and the integration enlarges the sound stage.
I had a major shift when I adjusted the phase controls on the mid-woofer plate amps to maximize the level at the listening position. Was then able to turn the overall woofer levels down a bit and everything was more integrated feeling and the bass clearer.
As expected, the sense of body is there overall, and for individual sounds like notes of a guitar, etc.
I would highly recommend this approach, in part or in total. I'm glad to help with anyone exploring.
Thank you again Louis. Your patience care for the result along with incredible skills have provided speakers that I will keep and display with pride, likely for life or until deaf!
...........Peter
-
Another configuration with these is to run the woofers down to 30Hz (switch to set for either 30 or 50Hz low end). In this configuration, I could easily run without subs or run subs at below 30. If I had to downsize (like an apartment or senior housing someday :o), running them this way without subs would be the way to go.
Here's a shot from the back..........
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=137054)
And the Marchand XM-66 line level crossover........
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=137057)
-
It has been a couple of months since my last post. Just coming back to update after really settling in and changing very little other than occasional experimentation with tube variations.
The system as I’ve set it up is really wonderful. The end result is an active powered four way system, though the Omega SAMs cover 60Hz up, the vast majority of the frequency range. This approach is an alternative to the 1.5 way configuration for adding low end and increasing sensitivity while the modular plan preserves the SAMs as stock and adds more flexibility in configuration.
My DIY supertweeters based on 1990’s Yamaha beryllium tweeters have 2nd order high pass at 15kHz. The mid-bass woofers are the Rythmik 8” paper cone/foam surround drivers with Brian’s modified plate amp that can extend down to either 50Hz or 30Hz. Louis built the cabinets for these to match the SAMs and act as stands. I have a Marchand XM-66 variable line level crossover to split the signal to the Dennis Had Inspire tube amp (for the Omegas) and the Rythmik mid-woofers. Finally, I have my pair of Rythmik F12s that I now have at low pass of 30Hz with 14Hz extension and high damping.
I thought that this setup would be with the mid-woofers set to roll off below 50Hz and above something around 150Hz. But I found that everything integrated better with the monitors doing the bulk of the work, the mid-woofers and subs at very narrow ranges (30-60Hz and 14-30Hz, respectively). The bass is very solid and tight while the monitors extending down to 60Hz preserve the amazing imaging and realism. I think keeping lower frequencies from both the tube amp and the SAMs allows for more dynamics and more volume before any distortion.
I have Herbie's fat dots between the monitors and mid-woofers and have Herbie's threaded stud gliders for feet that give me tilt adjustment.
If I were to do it again, I would change very little in the speaker system. Having both the F12’s and mid-woofers seems like overkill. I probably wouldn’t have spent all the extra if I knew it was going to be such a tight range but, now that I have both, I wouldn’t change it. There is also the advantage that, if I ever move to a smaller space, this system will do very well without the F12’s.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140921)
I have thanked Louis profusely for his willingness to work with me on something so non-standard, but can't really do it enough and want to do so publicly. These are true "lifetime" speakers.
..........Peter (http://smiley.nowdararpour.ir/other3/75.gif)
-
Very cool, Peter. Thanks for the update. Maybe Louis will come up with his own Outlaw version based on your design. Just think, a speaker named after you. :D
-
Very cool, Peter. Thanks for the update. Maybe Louis will come up with his own Outlaw version based on your design. Just think, a speaker named after you. :D
Ha! Well there are SAMs and CAMs. Somehow Peters doesn't have that ring..... or connotation :icon_twisted:.
But PAMS - Peter's Alnico Monitor System could work! :beer:
Seriously, Louis seemed interested and tempted. He had good things to say about the Rythmik driver and amp. We'll see.
-
Looks great! With those xo points it would also be possible for both the 8 and 12" drivers to cover the same <60 Hz range and place the 12"subs somewhere else in the room to get the smoothest bass response throughout the room.
-
Looks great! With those xo points it would also be possible for both the 8 and 12" drivers to cover the same <60 Hz range and place the 12"subs somewhere else in the room to get the smoothest bass response throughout the room.
The 8" drivers don't extend that low. They are limited at 30Hz. That would make double influence in 30-60 over the lower range where those F12's will dig. Moving the subs is a good idea though. But I'm not motivated enough for what a big endeavor that is rearranging and recalibrating. I ended up in physical therapy after setting up the way it is now, sad to say... :violin: Still recovering, but it did motivate me to join a gym and get my body stronger. :thumb:
......Peter
-
Hi pstrisik,
Many thanks and it was great working with you on the system. I'm so happy it turned out so well and I would do it again PAM's sound really good to me. I was very impressed with the Rythmik components too and would use them again for sure.
Many thanks,
Louis
-
Hi Peter,
I've been following your system building on AC as well as your participation in the Inspire thread on Audioafficionado. I have a pair of Alnico Monitors and Inspire KT88 amp and LP27a preamp. I also have a pair of Super 3's (wide baffle with RS5) and a 421a se amp.
If you were doing this over again, what changes would you make? I am toying with the idea of going with a Rhythmik bass solution to go with either the Super Alnico's or SUper 3's. My living room is about 16' x 20', with a listening position about 8' from the speakers. My other room (which can be set up as a semi-dedicated listening room) is 12' x 12' with a similar listening distance.
Do you feel the alnico's have adequate bass for the smaller room in an optimized setup? Do you think that the 8" drivers are better or worse than the 12" solution? If you didn't have your existing subwoofers, would you have chosen 12's? And finally, do you feel the use of stereo subs/woofer modules are worth the extra resources if you run the satellites full range?
Thanks,
Randy
-
Hi Randy,
Boy... questions questions! I'll do my best answering. It's tough to convey things in this world of ours. And so much is subjective. So, this is all from one man's head.........
If you were doing this over again, what changes would you make? I am toying with the idea of going with a Rhythmik bass solution to go with either the Super Alnico's or SUper 3's. My living room is about 16' x 20', with a listening position about 8' from the speakers. My other room (which can be set up as a semi-dedicated listening room) is 12' x 12' with a similar listening distance.
Your room is only slightly smaller than mine. I'm sitting 9' from the mains. So we are pretty similar there. I've not had these set up in a smaller room, so can't share experience in that setting or with the Super 3's, for that matter.
Do you feel the alnico's have adequate bass for the smaller room in an optimized setup?
It sounds like you have SAM's already? Did you listen to them in the smaller room? And the judgement about what makes for adequate bass is very subjective. For me, in my larger room, I was impressed with the bass extension of the monitors, but not enough to live with them without the bass extension help. The bass from the monitors alone would likely improve in a smaller room, but I don't know by how much. There have been at least a few comments from Monitor owners in this forum that indicated satisfaction with the bass without subs.
I will add a comment about the quality of the bass.... It's not like you would hear my system and say how powerful the bass is. Well you might if I was playing Amy Winehouse, but not for the majority of music. It is more that you hear more of the music since bass tones are clearer. You can hear, for example, the plucking on an upright bass in detail following what the player is doing without it dominating the rest of the music. I would characterize the added benefits as increased clarity and articulation rather than increased power or volume (though you can get those with this setup). With orchestral music, you get that fuller sound with more emotion with the low end support.
Do you think that the 8" drivers are better or worse than the 12" solution?
If I understand you correctly, I think this is apples and oranges. If you are using the 12", I assume we are talking about a subwoofer with Rythmik's extension down to 14Hz. The single 8" drivers are not subs. Brian has the amp roll off at 30Hz to make them mid-woofers (actually with a toggle to choose either 30 or 50Hz. He does make a sub with 8", but it is dual 8" drivers to handle the demands of the lower frequencies (FM8). You can get the FM8 with the mid-woofer option as well. In this case, it will switch between extension to 50Hz (mid-woofer) or to its lower capabilities (sub). These are finished subs. The single driver mid-woofer with amp he only sells without cabinet.
If I had to choose between Monitors/subs and Monitors/mid-woofers, it would be a tough call. The subs can extend up to mate with the monitors fine. In fact, I've never tried having the crossover feed the monitors and subs - only ran the monitors full range and subs supplementing. So the monitor/sub combo might work better if I did. Based on my experience between monitors full range plus subs vs. monitors and mid-woofers with the crossover, I would choose the latter. But, now that I realized that configuration I haven't tried, I must try it! :icon_twisted: I'll post impressions after I get a chance to do that.
If you didn't have your existing subwoofers, would you have chosen 12's?
If you mean for the mid-woofers, no. The box for the 8" driver is perfect for a base under the SAM's making for the feel of just a pair of floor-standing speakers rather than monitors and separate bass modules. With it only needing to go down to 30Hz, the 8" driver is lighter and faster than a 12" would be (caveat of Brian's claims that his servo is the great equalizer between drivers). Aside from Brian's servo technology and driver size, the smaller driver has a paper cone and a foam surround. You can get a paper/foam 12" from Rythmik - the GR Research version - but Brian claims there is little difference in sound due to his servo technology. The difference is the paper driver can extend higher. The 8" driver can extend even higher than the paper 12 though, if you want to cross higher than about 120Hz.
And finally, do you feel the use of stereo subs/woofer modules are worth the extra resources if you run the satellites full range?
For me, definitely. One or the other if not both. But once I do have the woofer, I am not going to run the monitors (or the low power tube amp) full range. As you have likely seen earlier in the threas, I have a line level crossover to make the blending absolutely smooth. It relieves the main amp and the monitors of some of their heaviest work as well. So by adding bass units you get much better bass response while also improving the midrange. Actually, the extension into deeper bass enhances the midrange, too. Even a guitar pluck now has the added support from below.
Now having the luxury of both the mid-woofers and stereo 12" subs, I wouldn't sell the subs. But if I only had the Monitors and mid-woofers, I would be happy and might not spring for separate subs. 30Hz is low. And these go solidly to 30Hz. If we ever move to a condo or something where the room would be smaller, I would likely move without the subs.
Finally, I will say that the attraction of the Rythmik line is for the mid-woofers with the modified plate amps. If you are opting for regular subs, I would talk more to Louis as he makes subs designed to mate with the Monitors. I had my pair of Rythmik F12's before I had even heard of Omega.
Hope this helps - a lot to digest! ........ Peter
-
Yes. Brian (Rythmik) designed the plate amp on the 8's to extend down to a limit. There is a switch to choose between 30Hz and 50Hz. So I set the F12's to low pass at that chosen frequency. Both plate amps are set to do 24db/octave roll off, so it's a smooth blend.
I want to do something similar. Maybe you can help me. We might have even discussed this in the past but here is my situation. I currently own a pair of Supercharged Omega3XRS's. So with the built in active 8inch sub that is located on the back. Louis is building me some High Output Omega 3XRS's that have the dual RS5 Drivers. So what I am going to do, is use my current speakers just for the subs alone once I have the new dual driver speakers. I am just going to put them right behind the new speakers. Then I want to add two more subs later for the real low stuff, including movie soundtracks. How, and what is the best way to accomplish all of this?
You can read some of the earlier posts in this thread to get much more detail. In essence, mine is a four way active system (quad amped). You are looking at 3 way active. 3.5 way actually. I have an active crossover (with variable frequency cross point) between the Monitors and the 8's. Then the 8's roll off at either 30 or 50Hz with the 12's set to low pass at that same frequency as described above.
With your setup though, I wonder if you need the mid-bass subs since you will have the 1.5 way RS5's. I haven't heard them myself, but understand they do much better with the mid-bass. Having very low subs with low pass roll off around 50, I imaging you will have plenty of midbass.
But, whether you use the mid-bass units plus subs or just subs, you have the issue of blending since the RS5's will be run full range. I would wait till you get them, experiment and see what you need. You may find you don't need the subs or, if you feel you do, you may not need the mid-bass with the RS5's. You can decide if the blending is smooth enough between the RS5's and subs and, if not, look at either a high pass active crossover or a two way active crossover. Marchand makes good stuff.
If you do look at an active crossover, either 1 way or two way, I can give you more input. Depending on how the amp is designed for your Omega mid-bass subs, you may have low pass already. If so, a one way (high pass) crossover to set the bottom limit on the RS5's would be all you need. With that you would also get the benefit of taking the heaviest work off your main amp and the RS5's increase the dynamics of both along with higher volume before distortion.
Did Louis set up the plate amp to do two way crossover work in your HO 3xrs' or does the main driver run full range? If it is two way, is it line level (active) or speaker level (passive) crossover? I think most would agree that speaker level crossover would remove some of the magic of the single driver approach.
Ok, enough rambling. Glad to discuss more.
...........Peter
-
I guess a good rough comparison might by Salk's latest. His are two/three way, so not really in consideration. But he has comparable woodwork and incorporated powered Rythmik woofers in his tower design, the Exotica 3. Priced at ...... wait for it ........ more than $13,000 depending on choice of veneer.
..........Peter
This is a late comment, but the Salk Exotica 3's are indeed $12,9995 per pair. They have the expected Salk excellent cabinetry, which we can reasonably equate with Louis'.
Some points of note:
1. The midbass and tweeter used in the Salk Exotica 3 cost about $2,500 per set. The Rhythmik amplifier/driver sets run another $1,300. There is at least another $200 in miscellaneous parts. Just the parts that go into the cabinets are $4,000.
2. Peter's Omega uses a single 8" driver per side. That doesn't save a whole lot of money (maybe $300 or so) but it would make a difference in a large room.
3. Given that both speakers are sold direct and would directly compete in the marketplace, I would argue that the Salk is a $13,000 speaker and Peter's Omega is a $5-6,000 speaker.
-
Belated agreement Roscoe.... After all was said and done, I think I have about $5000 into them.
But came back just to post a photo from some Sunday afternoon cable building fun!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170244)
-
Belated agreement Roscoe.... After all was said and done, I think I have about $5000 into them.
But came back just to post a photo from some Sunday afternoon cable building fun!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170244)
Nice job. I am curious about the transition in the middle?
-
Nice job. I am curious about the transition in the middle?
That's odd. I replied hours ago. Even included a photo, but it's not here. :scratch:
What I said:
------------------
Thanks!
I'm just using a piece of clear plastic tubing from Home Depot. The two mic cables fit very tightly through an inch or so of the tubing. Heat shrink over that. I've not seen it done this way before, but I didn't like "cable pants" or just heat shrink alone with the two cables stretching the mouth of it. This is nice and secure.
The tubing comes in different diameters so it could be used for a variety of cables.
Here is an earlier attempt with speaker cable (14ga of that vintage WE cable 8)). I hadn't thought of the plastic tubing yet and used a piece of brass tube. Another variable is whether or not the heat shrink covers the tubing or not. Left it partially exposed here.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170588)
.....Peter