AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Tube-o-phile Circle => Topic started by: jlafrenz on 12 Feb 2011, 02:56 pm
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I have recently decided that I want a little more power for my 2 channel setup and want to replace my current integrated unit. I am currently running the JoLida FX10. I have been pleased with it and the sound, but feel like its time for a little upgrade. There have been a few different amps I have been looking at, some of which I know very little about. I am hoping that I can get some feedback on the list below. I am also hoping that I can get some opinions on fully tubed integrated vs. a hybrid setup.
JoLida
Vincent
Van Alstine
Vista Audio
Jasmine
Grant Fidelity
Dared
Antique Sound Labs
I haven't listed specific models because I am looking at a couple of models from these manufacturers so general observations are OK. I will say that most of the models I am looking for are in the 25W (tubed) to 100W (hybrid) range. I don't want to get to pricey for my budget and will likely try and purchase used. Thanks for any advice.
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Can you give us an idea of what that budget is? And what types of improvements are you most hoping for? Where is your current amp coming up short? What type of music do you listen to? How Loud? What size room? And paired with what speakers?
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Budget is sub 1k and it seems like I might be able to find some of this gear can be found around the $800 mark.
The reason I have been looking into a new amp is that I recently hooked up another integrated and noticed some more punch and a bit better bass. It fell short in other areas so the search continues. I really like my JoLida, but want to explore other options. I listen to rock, folk, acoustic, and other mixed varities of music. Currently I have Aurum Cantus monitors. The kicker is that I have been looking at Magnepan MMG's. Those are just a thought at this point though.
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If you are considering new speakers, I would hold off on amplification. Choosing equipment, I would choose speakers first and then find the best amp match for those speakers.
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Hybrid amps tend to lean to the SS side sound wise.
I'd recommend the 55 wpc Rogue Cronus (which I own). You should easily be able to pick one up used for $900.
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If you are considering new speakers, I would hold off on amplification. Choosing equipment, I would choose speakers first and then find the best amp match for those speakers.
I was thinking about holding off and I still may because of the speaker situation. I know it may be a long shot, but hoped I could find something that would work for both. I realize that there needs to be some synergy and if I do make a speaker change, I could always make an amp change. It gives me the opportunity to try out new gear anyway. If I find an amp I like I will be happy with my current speakers.
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I have also added Rouge Audio to the list.
Anyone else care to share their thoughts?
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Look no further than
Rogue
PrimaLuna
Jolida
8)
Sam
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Look no further than
Rogue
PrimaLuna
Jolida
8)
Sam
Any thoughts on the Jolida vs. Rogue. Those seem to be the 2 that I keep coming back to.
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I currently have a Rogue Cronus in my system with all stock tubes/components that I compared in my system to a Jolida 302 with stock tubes.
They are quite similar but in my system the Rogue was a cut above the Jolida. The Jolida was great - warm, punchy and I loved the way the vocals were presented. Overall I would give it 7/10, timbres were presented well and the highs were extended. Things seemed quite warm and forward - very involving.
The Rogue on the otherhand. Punched like only what I have heard from ss amps! Snares and drums were presented better than I have ever heard! Snares snapped and the bass thumped and manged to stand out more in the mix. This was assisted by the greater transparency in the Rogue. Also the stage seemed to have less "stuff" between performers - quieter background maybe. The bass was significantly better than the Jolida - not that the Jolida lacked bass - rather the Rogue does bass extremely well. It was cleaner and heftier than the Jolida.
The overall presentation is a little more laid back - the Jolida I would call forward the Rogue I would call neutral with just a little forwardness.
The midrange seemed more liquid. I have not heard a set amp yet but I imagine the finese I hear in the Rogue is what many strive for in Set amps. Perhaps a set amp does this but a lot more? Either way it has a tremendous midrange.
Sam
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Thanks! This is some good info and exactly what I was looking for. It looks like both units would suit me well, especially with some tube rolling. The Rogue looks like it would be the way to go and has the added benefit of the phono stage (which I am also in need of). Now I just need to find a good deal on the used market.
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I am going to go ahead and give one more comment. To give credit to the Jolida, even though the Rogue outclasses it in nearly every audiophile aspect I would like to say that the Jolida was equivalent in one important aspect. The musicality. How am I defining it here... The ability for the music to be presented in such a way that it makes "sense". To get the feeling, purpose, and surrounding aspects of the music. If the music is meant to groove and yet have a miles davis kind of cool aspect - a systems ability to convey these things is what I refer to as musicality. I think many amps don't do this well. I would rate both these amps an 9/10 as far as that goes. Both are very musical amps and provide great enjoyment in this very important aspect. That is why I recommended both to you.
Sam
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Here is a good one at a great price:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1302795114&/Rogue-Audio-Tempest-Magnum-Upgrades
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I know exactly what you are saying. I have a little JoLida right now and it does provide me with that musical feeling. If a great deal on a JoLida, I'm not saying I would pass it up. Just looking at it though, by the time I add a phono stage to the JoLida, it may be more costly than the Rogue.
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Here is another one that is quite good for the price and within your budget:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1301875792&/Melody-H2A-2A3-push-pull-
I actually used to own this one and for the price again it is a great bargain. Very musical.
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I don't mean to throw a sudden curve ball into the mix, but having already owned the Rogue Cronus, Prima Luna Prologue 1 and 2, and the Jolida JD-302 (along with a few of their hybrids), I'd highly encourage you to take a glance at the Vista Audio i34. It's not much to look at, but it's performance more than makes up for it to my ears. While the aforementioned pieces are all great in their own regards, I just find the Vista Audio i34 to be more of a well rounded performer, with no real gaping holes in its presentation to speak of. It's linear in all the ways a good tube amp should be, is as musical as one would expect from glowing glass, and moreover, it's performance is pretty darned consistent across a WIDE array of loudspeakers.
Dunno, just thought I'd mention it!
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Well I haven't purchased anything yet so I will certainly give it a look.
Anything specific you can compare between it and the Rogue or JoLida?
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Now to throw my own wrench into the plans. Since the thought of MMG's have crossed my mind, I contacted a dealer who has been selling them for over 20 year and rebuilds his own tube gear. I asked him what he recommended. He said Cayin and that he was currently running his off of a rebuilt Dynaco. When he asked me what I was looking at I told him the Rogue and JoLida. His feelings were that the JoLida was better built and that the Rogue had a sub-par build quality inside the unit based on the last one he had rebuilt. He did admit that he was not familiar with the Cronus and the last unit he rebuilt was about 4 years ago so things may have changed. Does anyone care to comment?
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If he recommends a rebuilt Dynaco, check out some of the Van Alstine tube gear. My understanding is that he works extensively with the Dynaco designs.
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This is the internet audiophile dilemma. You are constantly bombarded by conflicting view points and you never get anything accomplished or completed and opinions fly everywhere and you only get frustrated.
Dynaco makes a quality amp - I am not aware of any of their integrated models. I do know that many of their amps are decades old and refurbished and this ads cost - all my friends who have had a Dynaco have moved on to something else. It would probably be a good start until you start to learn what your preferences are.
I suppose a dynaco is a good start because they tend to hold their resale value if they are treated well. All you lose out on is shipping and pp charges. This is the way to find out a lot of your preferences.
PM me I would like to know more about your experience in audio.
Sam
Ps. Rogue has great build quality.
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Rogue stuff is very well built. Amazing build quality for the price point. And built right here in the US of A!
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Thanks for you input Sam. I will send you a PM shortly and we can discuss.
Also, I did overlook the fact that the Dynaco is not an integrated :duh:
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Perhaps I should clarify a bit for those who have chimed in. The guy that told me he felt Rogue was a bit sub par was talking about the internal parts. He mentioned things such as the board and resistors specifically.
All your support for the Rogue is making it hard for me to take it off the list, or even knock it off as the top contender :)
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Perhaps I should clarify a bit for those who have chimed in. The guy that told me he felt Rogue was a bit sub par was talking about the internal parts. He mentioned things such as the board and resistors specifically.
All your support for the Rogue is making it hard for me to take it off the list, or even knock it off as the top contender :)
I can vouch for the Rogue Cronus Magnum. Very well built and nice synergy with my Salk Songtowers. I use the 4 ohm taps. A lot of amp for the money. Looks great too. See my gallery for a look. I also rolled all the small signal tubes for old RCA cleartops, a Tele smoothplate, and 2 Tungsram 12ax7. Smooth, powerful, and very holographic. Service has been exceptional as well. They even delivered it without the "Magnum" label on the faceplate, at my request.
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Rogue is noted for their good service. Something, that to me anyway, is important as Murphy's Law tends to apply to anything I own. :roll:
But there is a lot to be said for having a solid company in the US standing behind the product as opposed to an importer/distributer that may change regularly.
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Since everyone has been so helpful, I thought I might seek some more advice on my situation. I have been using a Peachtree Decco 2 lately instead of the Jolida. The sound is growing on me, but it isn't quite the tubey sound I am looking for. The DAC is quite nice though. Many of you have suggested the Rogue. I am still considering the unit, but wonder how it will compare with the Decco 2 paired with an outboard tube amp? Or would the Rogue paired with a suitable DAC be a better performer?
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I should mention, my source for comparing the Jolida to the Rogue was the Peachtree Nova.
Sam
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I should mention, my source for comparing the Jolida to the Rogue was the Peachtree Nova.
Sam
So is your suggestion to keep the Decco 2 as a DAC and them add just an amp to it our an integrated that can be used as an amp only? Have you compared that setup with using the Rogue or Jolida fully a an integrated and a separate DAC?
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What are your guy's thoughts on the Yaqin integrated units or something like the Onix SP3 compared to some of the units already discussed?
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The Onix tube amps were rebranded Melody amps, Melody is very well regarded.
The SP3 can be had as some stupid cheap prices due to what the previous importer did to them :cry:
The Melody MK88 discused in a thread below http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91088.0 is a very nice piece and all the melody gear now has remotes
What are your guy's thoughts on the Yaqin integrated units or something like the Onix SP3 compared to some of the units already discussed?
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The guy that told me he felt Rogue was a bit sub par was talking about the internal parts. He mentioned things such as the board and resistors specifically.
I opened up my preamp today to do some recreational tube rolling and saw Mundorf and Mcap capacitors in the signal path. Boards are solid but I can't tell what kind of resistors are used. Maybe your friend saw an early example that Rogue has corrected? :dunno:
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I'd suggest this one:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1303773594&/Kavent-Classic-No.16.0 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1303773594&/Kavent-Classic-No.16.0)
Excellent reviews, search on google for Classic No. 16. For $800, you're not going to find what you want with quality sound, IMHO.
Jim
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Since everyone has been so helpful, I thought I might seek some more advice on my situation. I have been using a Peachtree Decco 2 lately instead of the Jolida. The sound is growing on me, but it isn't quite the tubey sound I am looking for. The DAC is quite nice though. Many of you have suggested the Rogue. I am still considering the unit, but wonder how it will compare with the Decco 2 paired with an outboard tube amp? Or would the Rogue paired with a suitable DAC be a better performer?
I thought the exact same thing with the Nova. The Nova used as preamp into a tube amp did not work well due to the Nova's <30 ohm output impedance. The Decco 2 specs the same in this regard. The folks at Signal Path International were not surprised at my observations.
The Decco as a preamp into a hybrid (tube input/solid state) or solid state amp will be a much much better match, but still may not be "tubey" enough. YMMV
Or, you could use the Decco 2 as a straight DAC into whatever amplification you desire. That opens up a world of possibilities.
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Well this is an interesting discussion for me to follow. I have the original Decco that I got as a refurb from Peachtree Audio. I've been using it to process digital audio from my computers via USB and also streamed to an Apple TV V2, as well as running my TV and PS3 into, all via toslink using a nifty Octava HDMI/Toslink switch box with remote. The Decco is then driving a pair of Definitive Technology BP8020 'Super Tower' floorstanders with active subs built in.
Anyhoo, I've been feeling like the amp stage of the Decco falls flat when it comes to stereo imaging, as well as just not delivering a very 'engaging' sound, especially for rock (maybe 20% of my listening). Also sounds a little 'shouty' at higher volumes, and is a bit fatiguing. So I ordered a used Acurus DIA-100 SS amp (with passive pre-amp) which will arrive tomorrow. I'll see if this helps or hurts. If it's the latter, I was planning to send it back and try either a Glow Amp One or Tecon Model 55, based on reviews and specs. Anyone have any opinions on these plans to help guide a super noob like myself? Someone mentioned that Decco might not play nice as dac/preamp with a tube amp, something about output impedance; what's that about? Thanks...
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If he recommends a rebuilt Dynaco, check out some of the Van Alstine tube gear. My understanding is that he works extensively with the Dynaco designs.
Also, Will Vincent rebuilds Dynaco ST-70
He advertises his stuff on Audiogon and puts "by will vincent" in the headline.
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Try to get a Leben CS300
I've owned:
Stingray
Cary 30 SLI
Fisher 500 & 800
Eico HF-81
Unison SR1
The Leben is by far the best I've had and also has one of the best reputations out there.
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Try to get a Leben CS300
I've owned:
Stingray
Cary 30 SLI
Fisher 500 & 800
Eico HF-81
Unison SR1
The Leben is by far the best I've had and also has one of the best reputations out there.
That's an interesting mix of modern and vintage tube amps.
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Thanks...I forgot to mention the Almarro A205A and my Fi 2a3X and Fi 300bX intergrated amps.
If I had to put them in order of preference:
Leben
Fi 300X
Fi 2a3X
Eico
Almarro
Fisher800
Fisher500
Cary 30
Stingray
Unison
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How about Yaqin SET MS-300C, it can be had for about $850 imported. I just sold mine for a bit less. Pure 300B sound at 10W/ch.
mP
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More choices may not help when you have so many. " I can't see in the replies to date are LSA and Pathos. Both do excellent hybrids. The Pathos Classic is really excellent, maybe not enough power for you, but it punches above it's weight.
The basic version of the LSA might come in under $1000 second hand, I am not sure, but at 150 watts, is really quite powerful.
I use the Pathos Inpol2 which is more than you want to pay, but is my long term keeper.
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Have you looked into the JD-1501P hybrid amp from Jolida.
I have had Jolida products and I have never had any issues with them. They are built like tanks and very quite.
good luck...
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Sorry to reboot this thread, but I cannot figure out how to sart a new post, and need to post some stuff to get full citizenship privileges, if I read the rules right. At any rate, I am considering a Rogue as I have a modded Jolida 801a which sings perfectly with my less efficient ADS 780's, and tried the Prima Luna Dialogue 36 and 70 wpc versions and was disappointed ( I listen to old, often scratchy vinyl from Africa and the Caribbean, on a Thorens 124/3009/Shure 15iii) with the lack of warm bass and shrillness of the horns. I know most people consider these amps to be amazing, so I am mystified, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts about why the PL didn't sound so hot, as well as what direction I should go with another less expensive $1000-2500 tube amp with >50wpc for my second set of ADS 780's and a Garrard 401/3009/shire 15iii ( I bought a second pair of the ADS 780's as it was a good deal, and thy work with my bass heavy music). I had a 4-5 friends come over with their low end speakers (b&w studio monitors, polk stuff, nothing fancy, and all of them, several musicians, totally agreed with my Jolida vs PL comparison on my and their speakers......yikes). I also tried EL34s and KT 120's on both iterations of the PL, without much change in the basic comparison.
Thanks
Chris in Maine
PS Kevin at Upscale was a real help as I tried to like the PL, a real professional, gotta put that out there too.
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That surprises me. I had the 36wpc Prima Luna in my system when a friend brought it over and found it warm and rich sounding. I did prefer my Cronus Magnum to it (my friend did not) but that had more to do with the Cronus's extra power for my relatively inefficient speakers.
Did you try changing the small signal tubes? That makes a big difference in the Cronus though I don't know if it applies as much to the Prima Luna.
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Sorry to reboot this thread, but I cannot figure out how to sart a new post, and need to post some stuff to get full citizenship privileges, if I read the rules right. At any rate, I am considering a Rogue as I have a modded Jolida 801a which sings perfectly with my less efficient ADS 780's, and tried the Prima Luna Dialogue 36 and 70 wpc versions and was disappointed ( I listen to old, often scratchy vinyl from Africa and the Caribbean, on a Thorens 124/3009/Shure 15iii) with the lack of warm bass and shrillness of the horns. I know most people consider these amps to be amazing, so I am mystified, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts about why the PL didn't sound so hot, as well as what direction I should go with another less expensive $1000-2500 tube amp with >50wpc for my second set of ADS 780's and a Garrard 401/3009/shire 15iii ( I bought a second pair of the ADS 780's as it was a good deal, and thy work with my bass heavy music). I had a 4-5 friends come over with their low end speakers (b&w studio monitors, polk stuff, nothing fancy, and all of them, several musicians, totally agreed with my Jolida vs PL comparison on my and their speakers......yikes). I also tried EL34s and KT 120's on both iterations of the PL, without much change in the basic comparison.
Thanks
Chris in Maine
PS Kevin at Upscale was a real help as I tried to like the PL, a real professional, gotta put that out there too.
Yes, you need a minimum number of posts before you can start a thread.
I own a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Integrated and, with the right tubes, love it. KT120 were duds IMO, but EL34, KT88, and especially 6550 are wonderful. But I do digital and so didn't get the amp with phono pre-amp (a better one is reportedly on the way). So what is the problem with the sound? Is is the shrill/lack of warm bass that you mentioned? Sorry don't know your speakers.
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I recently purchased a Cayin A-50T integrated. It may not be powerful enough for you but it sounds great with my 90db speakers.
Uses EL34 tubes, 35w/Ch Ultra-linear Mode, 16w/Ch Triode mode. I'm liking Ultra-Linear mode the best to my suprise.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105545)
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Rpf and Jlm: thanks for the advice, did not try changing out the smaller tubes but did try EL-34s on both the PL Dialogue 36 wpc and 70 wpc variants, not much improvement. But to be truthful, a few audiophile CDs sounded utterly magnificent on the Primaluna Amps, and some if this may have to with my taste in low fi often poorly recorded music from Africa and the Caribbean, music that purposefully incorporates distortion in the recording process, the modern day equivalent of cowrie shells on the lute wood body adding vibrato and layers of rhythmic complexity. That is to say, the ability of the PL to accurately reproduce recorded sound may have been a drawback, as my records may have been engineered to be played on lo fi systems. But my jazz musician friends felt the same way about the PL vs the Jolida when some Lexington ave Blue Notes hit the turntable....
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Mortsnets: thx for the suggestion, what speakers are you using? rpf: what speakers with the Rogues?
My net trawling has yielded several rave reviews of the ADS 780s in conjunction with particular amps: jolida 801, Rogue Cronus Magnums, and Consinance cyber211 monoblocks.. These folks were playing vinyl, if I remember correctly.
Today I just learned that I might get a chance to buy a Marantz 8bs off a friends Dad, rated at 35 wpc. That would address the power issue, as I was told with sensitivity rated either at 85 or 88 dB for the ADS 780s, more power may be better. That is why I have not considered the Cayin here. Hence my question regarding your speakers. The PL Dialogue 70 wpc had a better soundstage compared with its 36 wpc predecessor, but other technical changes beyond me may have been the cause. Still, for non audiophile vinyl, the PL was pretty but not inviting; yes, horns a bit shrill, too much presence in the upper midrange, no yummy bass that the Cuban music is based on etc
Ok, many thanks
Chris
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JLM: my jolida 801 has electroharmonix 6550s in it, they are sweet. It was modded by a previous owner, no specific info, but the trimpot bias is set to 20 mA, not the usual 40..... Any thoughts how that may be swaying my judgement?
Thanks
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Don't know, but seems like you may be stuck in the audiophile dilema of picking between ultimate sound quality where only a very few recordings sound good under ideal conditions, or lowering the playback resolving/revealing nature of the setup so that more recordings become enjoyable.
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You may need a *gasp* graphic EQ to go with whatever you buy.
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Mortsnets: thx for the suggestion, what speakers are you using?
I'm using JMR Twin Signatures 90db, 4ohm in a small 10x12 music room at low volumes.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105604)
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Got the same speakers in my bedroom system. Sweet, warm, full and musical. Nice tone. Perfect for the application ! :thumb: