Preamp demo

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m_canada

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Re: Preamp demo
« Reply #20 on: 21 Jan 2017, 02:13 am »
Thanks again Zoom25.  You've provided so much useful information and I am very grateful. 

I don't have a working MacBook and my Mac is too far from my listening seat, so I'll have to set up the remote control, but I can look into it.  I'm a bit surprised that the digital source would make much difference, especially on the BDA-2 since one of the benefits of the BDA-2 was the good asynchronous USB interface and the ability to reduce jitter by reclocking the data using a high-quality internal clock.  Of course this assumes I am sending it bit-perfect data, which I believe I am doing.

Great idea about the mattress.  I'll have to give that a try to check to see what can be achieved by room treatment.

I'll send Dynaudio a note and see if they have any additional recommendations for my speaker placement.  They seem to be responsive to customers via social media.  I've looked through the Genelec document, but I'm a little constrained by my placement for now due to my projector screen and spouse.

My room is about 20' x 20'.  My listening area is a 10' x 10' carpeted corner.  Distance between the speaker tweeters is 7.5' and distance from listening position to tweeter is about 8.5'. 

Thanks again for all of the information.  I have a few days left with the preamp demo, so I'll see how it goes.

zoom25

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Re: Preamp demo
« Reply #21 on: 24 Jan 2017, 02:11 am »
Thanks again Zoom25.  You've provided so much useful information and I am very grateful. 

I don't have a working MacBook and my Mac is too far from my listening seat, so I'll have to set up the remote control, but I can look into it.  I'm a bit surprised that the digital source would make much difference, especially on the BDA-2 since one of the benefits of the BDA-2 was the good asynchronous USB interface and the ability to reduce jitter by reclocking the data using a high-quality internal clock.  Of course this assumes I am sending it bit-perfect data, which I believe I am doing.

Great idea about the mattress.  I'll have to give that a try to check to see what can be achieved by room treatment.

I'll send Dynaudio a note and see if they have any additional recommendations for my speaker placement.  They seem to be responsive to customers via social media.  I've looked through the Genelec document, but I'm a little constrained by my placement for now due to my projector screen and spouse.

My room is about 20' x 20'.  My listening area is a 10' x 10' carpeted corner.  Distance between the speaker tweeters is 7.5' and distance from listening position to tweeter is about 8.5'. 

Thanks again for all of the information.  I have a few days left with the preamp demo, so I'll see how it goes.

Looks like you are all set. I know you have your room (sofa/projector) planned around that carpeted corner, but that will create problems with audio due to not being seated midway across the sidewalls, and having the speaker spaced equal distance from both of the walls. From what you're telling me, the right speaker is about a feet away from the right sidewall, whereas the left speaker is over 10 feet away from side wall. To truly fix this, you will need acoustic treatment AND room correction.

I have a similar problem as well with this kind of asymmetrical design in my ground floor living room and use alright/low-end speakers that kind of fill the room. Not the highest resolution, but the asymmetrical effect isn't that bad. As soon as I start bringing my other monitors, the asymmetry becomes noticeable.

You can test this asymmetry by sitting right in the middle of the speakers on your sofa and playing a constant bass note for an extended period of time. You can close your eyes for this past and try to hear/feel if the bass is coming from the middle of the speakers, or is there a slight emphasis towards the right speaker side. This is due to the speaker getting extra boost from both the sidewall and backwall, whereas the left speaker only gets a boost from the back wall. It may be hard at first noticing this because you're probably very used to the sound in that room.

m_canada

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Re: Preamp demo
« Reply #22 on: 24 Jan 2017, 05:34 am »
Great explanation of the asymmetry issue.  I had assumed the only issue would be with the first reflections of the mid-high frequencies and that they could be dealt with by absorbing them.  I didn't realize there would be the bass-gain issue.  I suppose some thick bass absorption would help.  I have considered a floor to ceiling wall as a divider, maybe coming out 2 or 3 feet.  Would that be enough to balance the bass?  Or would the newly added reflections be an issue?

zoom25

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Re: Preamp demo
« Reply #23 on: 24 Jan 2017, 06:38 am »
Great explanation of the asymmetry issue.  I had assumed the only issue would be with the first reflections of the mid-high frequencies and that they could be dealt with by absorbing them.  I didn't realize there would be the bass-gain issue.  I suppose some thick bass absorption would help.  I have considered a floor to ceiling wall as a divider, maybe coming out 2 or 3 feet.  Would that be enough to balance the bass?  Or would the newly added reflections be an issue?

From that one previous picture, I can't tell exactly how much of a permanent install your place is. Okay, let me first address some issues, then I'll come back to my suggestion.

Yes, there will be a gain in the bass and mids. Even if you fully treat the right wall, it still won't fully address the fact that the left wall is still so far away. Acoustic treatment can fix some things, but you'll still need room correction. The problem with most of the room correction is that it only works for the one location. You'll have to jump to something like Trinnov for serious gains. Even then, room correction is really only meant to deal with an already good room. In poor rooms, even moving a few inches will ruin the sound.

If there were other pictures of the room ensuring 360 degree coverage and location of windows/doors, that would really help.

Bottomline:

The bad - currently, the positioning of the speakers is really atrocious. I won't sugarcoat it. Since the room is squarish 20 x 20, that does introduce bass problems, but it's not something I'd worry too much. It can later be addressed with room treatment.

The GOOD - Your room is 20 x 20!!! That's a great size and gives your rig a LOT of potential. The room is the most important thing. Sure you'll have to treat both a small and big room, but there are limitations in small rooms that one has to live with. The fact that your room is 20 x 20 should make you happy and give you serious hope. The biggest battle has been won!

Recommendation:

1) More pictures to really assess this situation.

I'm not sure how flexible the electrical and video setup is in the room, but hopefully it can work.

To give you hope, I previously also didn't have my room setup correctly for audio and video. The rest of the family didn't care about it. Then one day I decided to do it right. I made a sketch of dimensions and all applicable lengths that were important in the equation. I have it currently down to +/- 1mm. Next was assessing which features of the room, such as speaker location and listening location, were fixed and to be dictated by physics rather than convenience. These things were fixed and locked. After that, I imagined about how to relocate the other furniture.

Took about 2-3 hours of just assessing the room, the ports, furniture and see how I would tackle it. The actual moving part and rewiring everything took 2 full days. LOL my family was thinking I was just wasting my time moving everything around. I went at my pace and stuck with it. The pre-planning really helped.

Got everything wired at the end of second day. They actually ended up liking the symmetry and what I had done with the furniture. The real moment came in when I got the family on the couch and pressed play. Within 10 seconds, their jaws dropped. The 2 day journey paid off. Even they could tell right away that it sounded much cleaner and that the bass sounder clearer and "thumped better."

Based on your equipment and your passion for audio, I think it's a no-brainer for you to seriously consider getting the symmetry right. Having the symmetry right will make so many things right off the bat. Then when you add equal treatment, you'll again experience natural sounding improvements. If after that you still want to add that last bit of room correction, you'll get more out of the process.

I've spoken to some high-end designers and they have told me that many people sometimes get too consumed about thinking of sound in terms of frequency and phase, etc. It should never be forgotten that sound is acoustical ENERGY and pressure in a system. When you start imaging the sound in terms of energy and energy radiation, the symmetry aspect makes so much sense. Right now, you have that right speaker in the corner where all that energy is a mess.

You really owe it to yourself to hear both the speaker and the room correctly. As I already said, you have the right equipment and a good room. Now it comes down to planning and hard work. It should hopefully involve no money, just some time. The reward will be huge.

m_canada

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Re: Preamp demo
« Reply #24 on: 25 Jan 2017, 05:22 am »
zoom25, I'm so grateful for your help and am glad to have someone experienced to help guide me through improvements.  I finished the basement myself (except for the drywall), so I've got some flexibility in the wiring.  Theoretically, I can move any of the wiring.  The screen and projector are moveable, but of course there are some constraints with the projector throw and the projector location since the ceiling is low and I'll bump my head on it if is out in the open.  I've got a 16" square pillar almost perfectly in the centre of the room, just to the left of the sofa which prevents me from putting the sofa right in the middle of the room.  Also, I have a lower bulkhead running down the centre of the basement.  I haven't described it well enough for you to work with, but it will be clear once I've posted the photos.  If I can get away with only moving things around, that would be great.

I've got to clean-up a bit before I can get some pictures up.  I can post some measurements from my Anthem ARC room correction software to show the frequency response of the current set-up.  I've got commitments all week, but will find some time over the next few days to put this stuff together.  I'm really looking forward to even more suggestions - thanks again!

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Preamp demo
« Reply #25 on: 25 Jan 2017, 01:21 pm »
@M_canada: May I respectfully suggest that you and zoom do this by PM instead of out in the open here? This thread originally was about demo'ing a particular preamp. It has now evolved to detailed advice about reconfiguring one listening room. I keep clicking on new posts here, expecting to read about preamps, but instead....

Thanks for understanding and good luck with getting your room to sound good.   :thumb: