[James Tanner]

Well, James, I would have to agree that the loudspeaker has benefitted the greatest when it comes to applying technology and at a much lower cost (to develop) versus "50 years ago" ... I would say even 20 years ago (January 1997). That isn't to discount the improvements in products like amplifiers and pre-amplifiers, but what you can buy today in a loudspeaker at almost any budget ... it's actually difficult to buy a bad speaker today. Not so in the past.

That is not to imply that a great speaker is "run of the mill" because you do have to make an effort to end up with an outstanding example in your home, but the bar has definitely been raised at the low end and the high.

Hi John

Well I would say the methodology is there today to build a good speaker but without a true anechoic camber and measurement understanding it is a lot tougher than some may think.

james

[srb]

Well I would say the mythology is there today to build a good speaker but without a true anechoic camber and measurement understanding it is a lot tougher than some may think

Mythology or methodology?   

[Johnny2Bad]

Note: all values in $Canadian and using the Bank of Canada Cost of Living Index.

When I sold HiFi in the late 70's, we had nothing in the store for less than about $ 650 for a complete system ... turntable, cartridge, amplifier, speakers.

That's $ 2500 in 2016 dollars.

We had speakers up to about $3500 a pair ... $13,000 in 2016 dollars.

A record album was $13 ... list price was $17. That's $48.18 and $63.00 in 2016 dollars.

The mid-priced HiFi turntable was about $350 and people put a $200 cartridge on it. That's $1,279 and $741 in today's money. Our "expensive" tables were a bit over $1000. That's "a bit over $3705" if you went out this morning to buy one.

Someone complained about a five figure Audio Research amplifier. At $15,000 in today's dollars, that would be $4,047 in 1977. Well, that's a bit high, but not by much, and just the chassis on today's example is vastly more elaborate than the plain steel box that ARC gave you then.

I'm not trying to defend outlandish prices in HiFi, but just to put a bit of perspective. It was a weekly occurrence to sell a 5-piece system ... table, cartridge, pre/power amplification and speakers ... that cost between $3000 and $4000 in our store. That's $11,118 to $14,824 today. And this was in a city with a trading area (60 mile circle) of 120,000 people.

The prices are not really out of line. What has changed is how many people are willing to spend it.

[Johnny2Bad]

Hi John

Well I would say the mythology is there today to build a good speaker but without a true anechoic camber and measurement understanding it is a lot tougher than some may think.

james

Sure, but the NRC chamber has been around for what ... 40 years? It's not an accident that so many loudspeaker companies hail from Central Canada. I understand Axiom has their own, but you gotta start somewhere. It hit home for me in the late 70's when a few British speaker companies started moving to Ontario, and people like Paul Barton started to make waves in the export market.

[James Tanner]

Mythology or methodology?   

OOPs - spelling is not my strong suit - thanks.

james

[undertow]

Johnny2Bad

Just to clarify nobody complained about an Audio Research preamp at 15,000. It was used as an example to a question about how could you build a component with features, and quality at a lower price point.

Hence the example was used that a 2 channel / Tube audio research amp has less actually technology in it than a smart phone, HDTV, and $300 dollar sony receiver combined.

Point was that it is a hard sell today... And it was also stated that "Maybe" this would be a product line more feasible at 4000 to 5000. But justifying it at 15,000 will be very hard to sell into the "Next Generation".

Also, fact is packaging, and shipping etc... on any of these items would be the same in reality for most companies.

But again those that love big silver faceplates, the glow of tubes, and somewhat better sound quality will pay up for this, however what is "Reasonable" was the question. Is 15,000 for 4 tubes, and an isolated power supply worth 14,000 more? Guess there are those that will argue it one way or the other!

Just as side note I was not around in the 70's, but I can tell you this my mother never paid more than about 3.99 to 5.99 an album, even most still had price stickers on them! So not sure where they were being sold for 13 or 17 bucks unless they were MOFI or something?

[charmerci]

Just as side note I was not around in the 70's, but I can tell you this my mother never paid more than about 3.99 to 5.99 an album, even most still had price stickers on them! So not sure where they were being sold for 13 or 17 bucks unless they were MOFI or something?

He said Canadian - which IIRC, was something like .75 on the dollar at the time - 1/3 more. Also, keeping on the memory theme, in the mid-late 70's, I think albums were 5.99/6.99 -almost $24 > $28!!! 

[DaveC113]

I think you are too close to the hobby, if you are in the industry you obviously have something at stake.

I have demoed my system for many people over the years, they all enjoyed it and were very complimentary. They went away understanding my hobby. I used my own music selections and some of theirs, the recording quality of current popular music is so low that it was embarrassing.  I have lent out a pair of small OB speakers I built and let them circulate among a few people at work who showed an interest, the feedback was very positive. Bottom line is that they are not interested enough to become involved in audio equipment, they have other priorities.

When I got out of college everybody had a stereo system, bought records, and spent as much time listening to music as watching TV (no cable in those days). When I married my wife we had two stereo systems and a combined record collection. There were record stores and audio stores (hi end and mid fi) galore, not any more. If I wanted to get in the car right now and head to a mall or store and buy a jazz CD, maybe browse a selection of jazz CDs, I am not sure where I would go. How many of the people you know even have a stereo in their home and actually use it on a regular basis? For me, not many.

It is not employers and employees, it is not money or the economy, it is lack of interest.

IME, it's a combination of factors including financial.

I've been working on a speaker that'll retail around $50k. My observations after having a few dozen folks hear it is as I stated in my last post. Almost everyone has been shocked after hearing it, comments like "I didn't know music could sound this good", etc... I've had an industry expert tell me he enjoyed my system more than a $1M+ system we heard. No offense, but a small OB system isn't showing people what HiFi is all about. Plenty of interest but very few are willing to spend even 1/10th of what my system would cost. Understandably so, as wages have been stagnant and cost of living keeps going up. Job stability is a thing of the past as well, when you're worried about lay-offs you're going to be more conservative financially just in case your job is eliminated.

This is what's causing the rift between mid and high end systems and why the middle end is disappearing, this is 100% financial imo. The audio market is a reflection of the financial condition of our society in many ways. Finances are by far the largest factor in determining so many things in our society, including current political phenomenon, energy policy and much more. I think we're screwed unless our middle class can be resuscitated. I tend to agree with Henry Ford's statement about paying his workers enough to afford his cars, something like "It's better to have 200 people that can buy a car than one person who can afford 200 cars.". Right now we're seeing a massive gap in wealth to the point less than 100 people control over 50% of the world's wealth. Seen from this perspective the trends in high end audio make a lot more sense.

[MJK]

You are not in the real world.

[Folsom]

Quad 57's, Quad 63's, Beveridges, Hill Plasmas, Sound Labs, MBL's, and Acoustat Monitors were not good? Most dynamic speakers built today will still not touch any of these.

How many people owned those? or heard them? Umm... based on the shit-ton of Sansui, KEF, Technics, etc, speakers you see from yesteryear, today, I'd stand to say not that many.

I believe people have road blocks in their minds. Like $100 is something significant, maybe because we have a $100 bill? What if it was a $300 bill? Our bills have poor proportions to value these days, as the $1 is becoming negligible as a marker for anything unless you, say, shrink the size of a candy bar. Frankly I don't think people understand inflation in the least. 

[DaveC113]

You are not in the real world.

Alrighty then, good talking to you...   

[charmerci]

I believe people have road blocks in their minds. Like $100 is something significant, maybe because we have a $100 bill? What if it was a $300 bill? Our bills have poor proportions to value these days, as the $1 is becoming negligible as a marker for anything unless you, say, shrink the size of a candy bar. Frankly I don't think people understand inflation in the least.

I'm not so sure. As per my comment above - would I pay $24-28 for a new, non-audiophile album? Even if music could not be copied for free so easily today, $5.99 at yesterday's wages seems easier to do/justify than $23.95 does today.

[DaveC113]

I'm not so sure. As per my comment above - would I pay $24-28 for a new, non-audiophile album? Even if music could not be copied for free so easily today, $5.99 at yesterday's wages seems easier to do/justify than $23.95 does today.

That's a tough example because music has been devalued,  no longer requiring a physical medium.

But also an example that in the time period you're talking about wages have stagnated vs cost of living.

[undertow]

I think the bigger problem is people living in "La, La, Land" and I am not just talking about L.A. although that does have a lot to do with the ideological problems today, and likely why people were shocked Trump just got elected.

People talk about how everything is "Relative" when it comes to cost... Sure when both sides of the equation are in fact calculated! Problem is we have analysts that go around using the half they like, or serves their purpose such as on this board.

Why? Because most of them are in the 55 to 70 year old range which took over companies in the 80's where they could get paid 30,000 a year in a management job or way overpaid union job which now would be equal to more like 120,000 per year which is very rare to make.

For example a guy making 12,000 a year in 1970 was not exactly making a lot of money correct? But a coke was 50 cents, a cheeseburger maybe 75 cents, a house was about 15 to 20,000 for an average 1200 square foot or larger, in many parts of the country including the bigger suburbs, and cities... Cars I believe a luxury car would cost you 2500 to 5000!

You know what that means the average guy making 5.76 per hour or 12,000 could buy with his take home pay 2 entire brand new cars in a year cash, or more if they wanted too! And still have walking around money. And yes 6 bucks an hour was not that far from average.

Or in 2 years pay off an entire house!

Now this same guy today making 25 bucks an hour... Forget it... That house will be paid off in 20 years if lucky and that is pushing a very difficult accelerated mortgage.

And go buy a 5000 dollar Cadillac good luck they don't exist new.. Now they are 50,000.

So now this guy making 25 per hour or 52,000 a year barely makes GROSS income enough to cover that Cadillac let alone 2!

Nor does he make enough even NET to cover it.

What use to be purchased in a year, takes people 5 to 15 years now including audio.

Audio is a pure luxury no question, but the way it was done with the kid working all summer to buy that first Mcintosh receiver for $350 back in the day, is very different from pulling the trigger today on that same Mcintosh gear that costs $3500.00 regardless if you say the average guy making 12,000 than is equivalent to the guy making 50,000 now.

So we have some seriously jaded people in audio, and on this board if you think these theory's mean much vs. reality in practice.

[DaveC113]

I think the bigger problem is people living in "La, La, Land" and I am not just talking about L.A. although that does have a lot to do with the ideological problems today, and likely why people were shocked Trump just got elected.

People talk about how everything is "Relative" when it comes to cost... Sure when both sides of the equation are in fact calculated! Problem is we have analysts that go around using the half they like, or serves their purpose such as on this board.

Why? Because most of them are in the 55 to 70 year old range which took over companies in the 80's where they could get paid 30,000 a year in a management job or way overpaid union job which now would be equal to more like 120,000 per year which is very rare to make.

For example a guy making 12,000 a year in 1970 was not exactly making a lot of money correct? But a coke was 50 cents, a cheeseburger maybe 75 cents, a house was about 15 to 20,000 for an average 1200 square foot or larger, in many parts of the country including the bigger suburbs, and cities... Cars I believe a luxury car would cost you 2500 to 5000!

You know what that means the average guy making 5.76 per hour or 12,000 could buy with his take home pay 2 entire brand new cars in a year cash, or more if they wanted too! And still have walking around money. And yes 6 bucks an hour was not that far from average.

Or in 2 years pay off an entire house!

Now this same guy today making 25 bucks an hour... Forget it... That house will be paid off in 20 years if lucky and that is pushing a very difficult accelerated mortgage.

And go buy a 5000 dollar Cadillac good luck they don't exist new.. Now they are 50,000.

So now this guy making 25 per hour or 52,000 a year barely makes GROSS income enough to cover that Cadillac let alone 2!

Nor does he make enough even NET to cover it.

What use to be purchased in a year, takes people 5 to 15 years now including audio.

Audio is a pure luxury no question, but the way it was done with the kid working all summer to buy that first Mcintosh receiver for $350 back in the day, is very different from pulling the trigger today on that same Mcintosh gear that costs $3500.00 regardless if you say the average guy making 12,000 than is equivalent to the guy making 50,000 now.

So we have some seriously jaded people in audio, and on this board if you think these theory's mean much vs. reality in practice.

Thank you, this is the main issue with our entire society right now and is not sustainable, it's THE reason for decline in luxury markets across the board, not just audio. Much of our current issues would go away if we could fix the economic issues. Most other issues fade into obscurity after you've been dealing with financial stress for too long, and people are much more likely to blame their issues on others, perpetuating nationalism, racism and hate in general. I hope this can be turned around somehow.

In many luxury markets people are rushing as fast as possible upmarket because the middle is dead. Goods from all over the place, from luxury/designer clothing to prestigious luxury auto brands, are cheapening their products because of it, or greatly increasing pricing. One or the other. 

[Armaegis]

My folks were immigrants who came to Canada with nothing in their teens, worked blue collar jobs, and managed to put two kids through school and settle into a 2000 sq ft home at 20% mortage rate in a nice upper middle class part of town. We weren't "rich", but lived comfortably.

Me, I miraculously managed to not go into debt paying for school myself, I've got more degrees than my parents put together, worked in a supposedly well paying white collar world, have a house not even half the size... yet still need roommates to help pay my mortgage which is at a middling 3% and the financial vultures of starting a family are mortifying. I buy used because retail prices on boutique gear now is a pipe dream.

[undertow]

Dave, Armaegis,

And you know what the funny thing today these guys keep saying? Go get another job if your not payed what your worth just go out and get it right?

Funny thing is these are the same people telling you this while they are the same people hiring that would never cut into their profits to actually pay you what your worth anyway

Double talk, lowered responsibility, and all about the stocks performing no matter what it takes, because if confidence slips they start to get very worried they can't keep B.S.ing people.

And when those houses worth 100 bucks a square foot everybody got duped into paying 200 per square for drop back to 100 per square where they belong, blame a president! Even though it has absolutely zero to do with it.

There is no great solution accept for people to start to accept it needs to correct on its own, or just like they took away guaranteed pensions, and now force you to risk your entire life based on a 401k, and hope the risk pays off! Time is just running out simple as that.

Always prepare for the worst, but hope for the best... It's never worked any other way accept they keep trying to promise people it will.

[WGH]

What Happened to Hi-Fi?

In two words - Drake and Streaming
There is no reason to own a stereo to listen to pop music these days.

All Things Considered has an interesting segment on album sales:
http://www.npr.org/2017/01/10/509173847/from-mozart-to-adele-to-chance-the-rapper-measuring-album-sales-means-being-spec

"...When you do look at the total consumption for the year in terms of albums, you had Drake's Views record being the top record of the year.

In terms of sales, it was bested by Adele's 25 record, which actually came out at the end of 2015 but continued to sell very well throughout the year. But when we talk about total consumption — the album, all of the songs that were purchased individually, all of the streams that happened — Drake was the biggest of the year."

"...we had over 250 billion audio streams last year"

And for a historical footnote - nothing has happened to Hi-Fi - it's death has been predicted every year since the first issue of Stereophile and is perennially a favorite topic that generates a lot of letters to the editor.

Wayne

[Folsom]

$12k in 1970 is $74.6k today.

[Armaegis]

Dave, Armaegis,

And you know what the funny thing today these guys keep saying? Go get another job if your not payed what your worth just go out and get it right?

Funny thing is these are the same people telling you this while they are the same people hiring that would never cut into their profits to actually pay you what your worth anyway

Yup... job market is dry, wages are frozen, people that should be retiring aren't and employers are only willing to hire temps/term positions because then it keeps their outlays low and they don't have to pay out for benefits.

So somewhere in there, I play with a little bit of audio by very very carefully perusing through used classifieds, and frankly the only way I've even been able to play in this arena is because I've been buying locally and then selling it to the Americans because the exchange rate works in my favour.