Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8

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Ultralight

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #20 on: 11 May 2017, 03:06 am »
Roscoe65.

I'm not sure that I understand.  If you have a 98db efficient speaker in a small space, and it gets plenty loud at 1 or 2 watts. What happens if you put in 20 watts?  Doesn't it just deafen you?

And by the way, did you do the various set up tests with your speakers?  (bipole, dipole, late ceiling splash, omni etc? )

Thanks.

One thing I have found is that oftentimes specs don't tell the whole story.  A speaker that is rated at 98dB should work well with five watts, but may actually be happier with much more.  A lot of JBL and Altec speakers have a high rated sensitivity but really need at least 20wpc or so to come alive, even in smaller spaces.  On the other hand, most Harbeth speakers are rated in the mid-80's for sensitivity but well with low power.


roscoe65

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #21 on: 11 May 2017, 03:27 am »
Roscoe65.

I'm not sure that I understand.  If you have a 98db efficient speaker in a small space, and it gets plenty loud at 1 or 2 watts. What happens if you put in 20 watts?  Doesn't it just deafen you?

And by the way, did you do the various set up tests with your speakers?  (bipole, dipole, late ceiling splash, omni etc? )

Thanks.

I never did get to do the tests.  A lack of time and the limits of an otherwise understanding significant other have been limiting factors.  I won't rule it out in the future, but it is on hold at this moment.

I've found that some speakers, despite a high sensitivity, need a bit more current capability to get moving.  I have some Altec 414A's (99dB) that do fine with as little as 2wpc, but my Altec 414-8C's (96dB) seem happier with at least 10wpc.  The arithmetic doesn't add up but my ears tell me otherwise.  I'm sure Dave or others can offer more substantive opinion, but I think it is mostly a function of moving mass and impedance.  If the motor doesn't suck a lot of current and the cone assembly is very light, the driver seems to do well despite a relatively low sensitivity.  The RS5 is the champ at this.  94.5dB is not low, but it is also not generally viewed as acceptable for fleawatt (<2wpc) amps.  Another anomalous speaker was my Dynaco A25XL's.  This speaker was maybe 89dB, but the light 10" driver with no crossover was more than happy with 5wpc.  It shouldn't have worked, but it would rock the house with a 6 watt Tripath amp.

DaveC113

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #22 on: 11 May 2017, 03:19 pm »
Thanks Dave,
The output impedance of the DAVE is .055ohms.  2.8Watts peak.

That's VERY low for a preamp, so no issues with damping factor there, but as I said, you run out of current at 2W with an 8 ohm speaker. But that is plenty for a desktop setup for most people.

With .055ohm you should be able to drive much less than 50 ohms, seems like a very conservative spec given in the owner's manual.

DaveC113

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #23 on: 11 May 2017, 03:24 pm »
I never did get to do the tests.  A lack of time and the limits of an otherwise understanding significant other have been limiting factors.  I won't rule it out in the future, but it is on hold at this moment.

I've found that some speakers, despite a high sensitivity, need a bit more current capability to get moving.  I have some Altec 414A's (99dB) that do fine with as little as 2wpc, but my Altec 414-8C's (96dB) seem happier with at least 10wpc.  The arithmetic doesn't add up but my ears tell me otherwise.  I'm sure Dave or others can offer more substantive opinion, but I think it is mostly a function of moving mass and impedance.  If the motor doesn't suck a lot of current and the cone assembly is very light, the driver seems to do well despite a relatively low sensitivity.  The RS5 is the champ at this.  94.5dB is not low, but it is also not generally viewed as acceptable for fleawatt (<2wpc) amps.  Another anomalous speaker was my Dynaco A25XL's.  This speaker was maybe 89dB, but the light 10" driver with no crossover was more than happy with 5wpc.  It shouldn't have worked, but it would rock the house with a 6 watt Tripath amp.


You can look at impedance and phase measurements as they are very important, but I'd agree the type of speaker and mainly it's power handling are also factors... A high efficiency speaker with larger drivers and higher power handling often is best with a larger amp even if it's extremely efficient. And OTOH the RS5 doesn't need much power even though 94.5 dB isn't all that efficient.


elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #24 on: 12 May 2017, 01:47 am »
That's VERY low for a preamp, so no issues with damping factor there, but as I said, you run out of current at 2W with an 8 ohm speaker. But that is plenty for a desktop setup for most people.

With .055ohm you should be able to drive much less than 50 ohms, seems like a very conservative spec given in the owner's manual.

Here is the impedance measurement quoted from Rob Watts the designer. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-415#post-13099140  it would seem the impedance measurement on the company website is incorrect,  http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/ go to technical specs.
Myself, I will try a Chord 2 Qute on the Super 8 XRS next month.  This will be even more challenging direct  with only 1W peak and .075 impedance.  I am a near field listener. 

EVOLVIST

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #25 on: 12 May 2017, 02:44 am »
Here is the impedance measurement quoted from Rob Watts the designer. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-415#post-13099140  it would seem the impedance measurement on the company website is incorrect,  http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/ go to technical specs.
Myself, I will try a Chord 2 Qute on the Super 8 XRS next month.  This will be even more challenging direct  with only 1W peak and .075 impedance.  I am a near field listener.

Good luck. You might dig the hell out of it. I didn't much care for driving the DAVE direct to the CAMs, even with a JL f110 sub going out of the DAVE's XLRs.

I mean, the sound was pleasing; don't get me wrong. There was a purity there that was amazing. It just had no balls at all. It might have been superb if I wanted to listen to the Carpenters or Peter, Paul and Mary, but A Tribe Called Quest wasn't having any of that shit. Heh.

elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #26 on: 12 May 2017, 03:08 am »
Good luck. You might dig the hell out of it. I didn't much care for driving the DAVE direct to the CAMs, even with a JL f110 sub going out of the DAVE's XLRs.

I mean, the sound was pleasing; don't get me wrong. There was a purity there that was amazing. It just had no balls at all. It might have been superb if I wanted to listen to the Carpenters or Peter, Paul and Mary, but A Tribe Called Quest wasn't having any of that shit. Heh.
Thanks Evolvist, I am sure I will enjoy them.
Wanting to accentuate the bass, then, yeah, the Omega's are probably not your calling.  Myself, I despise over accentuated bass, as shown by my current setup of Mini maggies with no additional sub, I want to hear the complete accuracy of the highs and mids.  I look forward to a low power setup disconnected from the sins of AC leakage.  The maggies are great, but that electrical field of energy that they emit is not to my liking in near field listening.

elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #27 on: 12 May 2017, 03:14 am »
oops, one too many

EVOLVIST

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #28 on: 12 May 2017, 03:36 am »
Thanks Evolvist, I am sure I will enjoy them.
Wanting to accentuate the bass, then, yeah, the Omega's are probably not your calling.  Myself, I despise over accentuated bass, as shown by my current setup of Mini maggies with no additional sub, I want to hear the complete accuracy of the highs and mids.  I look forward to a low power setup disconnected from the sins of AC leakage.  The maggies are great, but that electrical field of energy that they emit is not to my liking in near field listening.

Oh, I feel you. I'm not a bass head. I want my bass to be accurate. I simply used the sub to blend where the CAMs wouldn't go. I mean, no single driver, or most multis for that matter are going to bring out the                        intrensic bass in Bach's pipe organ, but with a little luck we'll be able to hear Stanley Jordan just fine.

That said, I feel that if I had driven the CAMs with a proper amp, I could have sent them to the moon and back.

elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #29 on: 12 May 2017, 05:11 am »
Oh, I feel you. I'm not a bass head. I want my bass to be accurate. I simply used the sub to blend where the CAMs wouldn't go. I mean, no single driver, or most multis for that matter are going to bring out the                        intrensic bass in Bach's pipe organ, but with a little luck we'll be able to hear Stanley Jordan just fine.

That said, I feel that if I had driven the CAMs with a proper amp, I could have sent them to the moon and back.

I got a feeling you didn't allow them to break in properly.  But yeah, those CAMs are rated for 42hz and like others have said, it's awfully tough to match the speed of those single driver Omegas with a sub.  I think you had plenty of power with the DAVE.  We all have a different idea of bass.  I'm sure many would think I'm far too light in this area, I don't like the bass overwhelming the mids and highs, many people do.   But those Omega Super 8 XRS get down to 35hz, so I should be good as long as my 2Qute can drive those 98 dB speakers sufficiently.  I'll test with a class AB amp also.  Worse comes to worse I'll build a class D amp for here in the tropics on those days I really need to drive them. 

EVOLVIST

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #30 on: 12 May 2017, 05:21 am »
I got a feeling you didn't allow them to break in properly.  But yeah, those CAMs are rated for 42hz and like others have said, it's awfully tough to match the speed of those single driver Omegas with a sub.  I think you had plenty of power with the DAVE.  We all have a different idea of bass.  I'm sure many would think I'm far too light in this area, I don't like the bass overwhelming the mids and highs, many people do.   But those Omega Super 8 XRS get down to 35hz, so I should be good as long as my 2Qute can drive those 98 dB speakers sufficiently.  I'll test with a class AB amp also.  Worse comes to worse I'll build a class D amp for here in the tropics on those days I really need to drive them.

Oh, I have no doubt that the Super 8 XRS will sound top-flight!

Heh. Don't let Rob Watts here you talk about a Class D amp with his products. He would have a heart attack! He loathes Class D.

elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #31 on: 12 May 2017, 05:25 am »
Oh, I have no doubt that the Super 8 XRS will sound top-flight!

Heh. Don't let Rob Watts here you talk about a Class D amp with his products. He would have a heart attack! He loathes Class D.
LOL, he already loathes me and my constant battle to replace his Lipo battery power design in the portable DAC's.

But I do agree with Rob that no amp is the best amp with his Chord DAC's. 

elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #32 on: 22 Jun 2017, 05:42 pm »
Received my Super 8XRS a few days ago.  Had Louis use Canare Star Quad 4S8 for the internal wiring to speaker posts.  Then I made my own Canare 4S8 speaker cables terminated with banana plugs and RCA.  Testing direct Chord 2Qute DAC driving the Super 8's, 2Qute is powered by LPS-1, streaming direct USB from a standard home base computer with JRiver, switching power supply (will be a pico-itx powered by linear PS in the future).  Not optimal, but okay for the current location away from my main home for testing. 
Results with little break in, fantastic with 2Qute, less than a watt, driving the Super 8's.  Tried a used Bantam Gold amp I picked up, wasn't even close, the 2Qute direct to the Super 8's is superior in sound quality in every way.  But that was with direct AC power via switching power supply to the Bantam Gold, will try again once my Paul Hynes SR7 MR4 12V comes in.

The Super 8XRS are just what I wanted, highly efficient speakers, with superior sound, that will allow me to bypass the separate amp/preamp and get my entire digital system off the direct AC grid with high quality linear power supplies that disallow AC leakage.  Thanks Louis!!


« Last Edit: 23 Jun 2017, 04:17 am by elviscaprice »

tdogzthmn

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #33 on: 23 Jun 2017, 02:16 am »
Received my Super 8XRS a few days ago.  Had Louis use Canare Star Quad 4S8 for the internal wiring to speaker posts.  Then I made my own Canare 4S8 speaker cables terminated with banana plugs and RCA.  Testing direct Chord 2Qute DAC driving the Super 8's, 2Qute is powered by LPS-1, streaming direct USB from a standard home base computer with JRiver, switching power supply (will be a pico-itx powered by linear PS in the future).  Not optimal, but okay for the current location away from my main home for testing. 
Results with little break in, fantastic with 2Qute, less than a watt, driving the Super 8's.  Tried a used Bantam Gold amp I picked up, wasn't even close, the 2Qute direct to the Super 8's is superior in sound quality in every way.  But that was with direct AC power via switching power supply to the Bantam Gold, will try again once my Paul Hynes SR7 MR4 12V comes in.

The Super 8XRS are just what I wanted, highly efficient speakers, with superior sound, that will allow me to bypass the separate amp/preamp and get my entire digital system off the direct AC grid with high quality linear power supplies that disallow AC leakage.

You're able to drive the speakers directly from the RCA out on your DAC?  The rated output is 3v RMS 1kHz on the 2Qute and the RS8 driver is rated at 99db per watt.  Its an interesting configuration, you dont see many who are able to get away with such a low voltage system.

elviscaprice

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #34 on: 23 Jun 2017, 02:57 am »
You're able to drive the speakers directly from the RCA out on your DAC?  The rated output is 3v RMS 1kHz on the 2Qute and the RS8 driver is rated at 99db per watt.  Its an interesting configuration, you dont see many who are able to get away with such a low voltage system.

I agree, I was taken a back at how good it sounded with the 2Qute driving them directly, more than enough volume from 12ft.  Whereas they will normally be in near field listening.  Look forward to Chord's upgrade of the 2Qute in the immediate future.

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RDavidson

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Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #35 on: 23 Jun 2017, 03:39 am »
Very cool. To me this is an uncommon example of a nearly ideal audio system ; Source signal straight to speakers. I mean, I know there's still signal amplification happening in the chain (by necessity), but it isn't much.
« Last Edit: 24 Jun 2017, 04:21 am by RDavidson »

jMelvin

Re: Nice review of Super 3i & deepOMEGA 8
« Reply #36 on: 23 Jun 2017, 10:05 am »
I have to admit I read this a couple of times thinking "no way, I must have read this wrong". Very interesting indeed. Hmmm, I have a Chord Qute EX laying around doing nothing right now .. makes me wonder if my Super 3i's are efficient enough.