Trouble with impedance settings

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glynnw

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Trouble with impedance settings
« on: 19 Mar 2016, 02:29 am »
A couple of weeks ago I played with the different impedance settings, comparing 1 @ 20, 2 @ 40, 3 @ 60, 4 @ 80 and 5 @ 99.  2 @ 40 was the obvious winner so I set it there and left it.  Also a couple of weeks ago something happened to my balance and it actually switched to exact center, which was odd because it has been off to the right forever.  I was pleased that I could stop turning down  the right input volume knob on my amp to correct this.  Today I started having a channel balance problem - as I turned up the volume the image moved to the right.  Running auto-calibrate stuck while running LDR #2 so I switched it out with some of the spares I have from when I fried an earlier board.  I switched the #2 LDR based upon your explanation in an earlier email of which was which and then auto calibrate ran all the way through, and now the balance was a little to the right (this is where it had been before the change a couple of weeks ago- so I again corrected this at the amp which has a volume control for each channel).  I played with switching various LDRs because I am a masochist and finally just switched out all 4 LDRs and ran auto-calibrate, but there was no effect on the balance - it is always just a bit to the right which is OK.  But now the impedance changes have no effect.   1,2,3 and 5 sound the same and have the same  level of output.  And now setting #4 is much louder and switches balance way to the left.  Any ideas?   And I may hold some kind of record for running auto-calibrate the most times in a 4 hour period.
« Last Edit: 20 Mar 2016, 04:06 pm by glynnw »

craig sawyers

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Re: Trouble with impedednce settings
« Reply #1 on: 20 Mar 2016, 08:53 am »
Morten will have his own input - but having swapped LDR's around might you need to do a pre-cal?

tortugaranger

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Re: Trouble with impedednce settings
« Reply #2 on: 20 Mar 2016, 03:21 pm »
A couple of weeks ago I played with the different impedance settings, comparing 1 @ 20, 2 @ 40, 3 @ 60, 4 @ 80 and 5 @ 99.  2 @ 40 was the obvious winner so I set it there and left it.  Also a couple of weeks ago something happened to my balance and it actually switched to exact center, which was odd because it has been off to the right forever.  I was pleased that I could stop turning down  the right input volume knob on my amp to correct this.  Today I started having a channel balance problem - as I turned up the volume the image moved to the right.  Running auto-calibrate stuck while running LDR #2 so I switched it out with some of the spares I have from when I fried an earlier board.  I switched the #2 LDR based upon your explanation in an earlier email of which was which and then auto calibrate ran all the way through, and now the balance was a little to the right (this is where it had been before the change a couple of weeks ago- so I again corrected this at the amp which has a volume control for each channel).  I played with switching various LDRs because I am a masochist and finally just switched out all 4 LDRs and ran auto-calibrate, but there was no effect on the balance - it is always just a bit to the right which is OK.  But now the impedance changes have no effect.   1,2,3 and 5 sound the same and have the same  level of output.  And now setting #4 is much louder and switches balance way to the left.  Any ideas?   And I may hold some kind of record for running auto-calibrate the most times in a 4 hour period.

I see two different possible issues reflected in this information.

1)  Bad LDR - If channel balance shifts enough to be noticeable it's a fair bet that the performance curve of at least one LDR has drifted substantially. If running autocal hangs up on a given LDR it's also a good bet that the given LDR (1, 2, 3 or 4) is the problem and needs to be replaced after which rerunning autocal should go smoothly and balance will be centered again.

2) Channel Balance Offset - Boards should only need to be precalibrated with precison resistors (in place of the LDRs) one time at board commissioning to capture the nuances of the non-LDR hardware on a given board. This hardware includes DACs, op amps, ADCs, voltage regulator, and a few resistors etc. It's been my experience that once this is done, and you install the LDRs and run autocal, you get a consistent solidly centered channel balance. When running autocal for the first time at any given setting number and impedance level I've also discovered that it's helpful to run autocal twice. The first time through it has to work harder to hit the target points. Subsequent times through it starts with the results of the prior autocal so the results seem to be tighter.  If you are experiencing consistent channel balance offset after successful autocal, especially with a new preamp/board, I would first double check everything outside of the preamp that could account for this. If the balance offset is something that crept into the picture over time but the unit otherwise runs through autocal with no problems, I would run the board through pre-calibration again and see if this clears things up. To date, I've not had to do this.

And to clarify Craig's comment, replacing LDRs does not require redoing pre-cal, only auto-cal.

craig sawyers

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Re: Trouble with impedednce settings
« Reply #3 on: 20 Mar 2016, 04:39 pm »
And to clarify Craig's comment, replacing LDRs does not require redoing pre-cal, only auto-cal.

Thanks for clearing that up, Morten!

glynnw

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Re: Trouble with impedance settings
« Reply #4 on: 21 Mar 2016, 04:25 am »
Thanks Morten.  I think I rambled a bit due to tiredness.  Really, the balance being off to right is no issue for me - I think it is my room, but someday I'll switch a bunch of wires left and right and figure it all out.

What was  puzzling me was that the impedance no longer made a difference and then being a bit weird on some settings.  Today, while trying to "kitty-proof" my wiring, I experimented with the impedance.  Right now everything is back to normal.  But for a few days the different settings I was using all sounded the same, except for when I had #4 set at 80 (even after replacing the bad LDR).  Then setting #4 was much louder and balance shifted to left.  So today I changed the setting on #4 from 80 to 20 and it acted correctly - balance where I wanted it and volume OK.  Then when I changed the setting back to 80, it was still OK.  So for a couple of days the impedance settings acted weird - and I was making sure to run auto-calibrate after every change.  But today all is back to normal.  My final act today was to run the auto-calibrate program 3 times in a row to make sure it stayed correct.  So now I have no issues at all (other than that damn kitten trying to eat my stereo).

tortugaranger

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Re: Trouble with impedance settings
« Reply #5 on: 21 Mar 2016, 01:49 pm »
From all the feedback I've received since we introduced adjustable impedance the results of changing impedance runs the gamut from little to no change to noticeable change above or below a certain threshold.  There are some who even claim that moving up or down a few k around some optimum makes a difference. There are a lot of variable at play here when changing impedance - there's the source, the preamp itself, and the amp.

Traditional guidance is that as long as you have a 10:1 bridging ratio or greater (for example a 1,000 ohm source feeding into a 10k amp) you're good to go. When we introduce a resistive passive preamp it gets more complicated because the preamp and amp are parallel impedance devices where the effective impedance as seen by the source becomes Rpre x Ramp / (Rpre + Ramp). So with a 20k preamp and a 10k amp you end up with 200/30 = 6.7k which means the same 1k source will be asked to deliver more current that may be beyond its ability to deliver without degrading the sound. That is why you often see 50:1 guidance when passive preamps are involved. This is guidance only and not a hard and fast rule.

I believe there are subtle factors beyond just the bridging impedance. For example, certain DACs seem to like driving into a specific range of impedance outside of which they don't perform as well. One customer even had a DAC that wouldn't perform well unless it was connected to an amp with at least 50k input impedance - arguably unusual but illustrative of the possible variations you can encounter. Another DAC performed way better when impedance was dropped from 20k to 10k. Why? I frankly don't know and suspect only that DAC's designer could explain it. It does seems counter intuitive.

What it clear is that adjustable impedance is practically unheard of in traditional active preamps. Not that it couldn't be implemented but I suspect few if any designers see any point in doing so. Again, it's more complicated with a passive preamp and this is largely uncharted territory. For the record, when I tested adjustable impedance with the test rig in our shop, I couldn't discern much difference above 10k. Then again, my daughter maintains I'm partially deaf.....what?

glynnw

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Re: Trouble with impedance settings
« Reply #6 on: 22 Mar 2016, 09:54 pm »
While being careless today I blew up 2 items I was using between the PC and the DAC.  A costly bit of stupidity.  But now the balance is centered - guess they were the reason it was off a bit.

DaveC113

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Re: Trouble with impedance settings
« Reply #7 on: 22 Mar 2016, 10:01 pm »
Just thought I'd throw in that my Sony HAP-Z1ES couldn't care less about the impedance settings. I was expecting to narrow in on one of them but it sounds identical into any impedance available with the Tortuga board.


DaveC113

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Re: Trouble with impedance settings
« Reply #8 on: 22 Mar 2016, 10:02 pm »
While being careless today I blew up 2 items I was using between the PC and the DAC.  A costly bit of stupidity.  But now the balance is centered - guess they were the reason it was off a bit.

Sorry, but also congrats on finding the problem!  :thumb:

glynnw

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Re: Trouble with impedance settings
« Reply #9 on: 23 Mar 2016, 12:41 am »
Thanks, Dave...I think :P