AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 03:09 pm

Title: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 03:09 pm
Right off the top I should state that I am not one of you. I can't solder, read a schematic or drive a slide rule. I did, however, create a horn based loudspeaker that provides a very dynamic, coherent, faithful and intriguing musical reproduction. This was accomplished by getting good advice, being a little creative about assembly and relying on my tried and true dumb luck.

Because I am under the influence of audio fantasy and devoid of the ability to leave well enough alone, I am always thinking about how to make it more better. That, I imagined, makes this the place where I should raise this topic.

JoshK has expressed a longing for a horn speaker project and maybe a few more of you might think to pursue such a thing as well. If enough of you are interested enough, I'm bound to be able to bleed off some info I can use if I can find a translator.

So, who wants to build horns? My story has already been told somewhere in the archives but I'm willing to provide info about my experiences if any one wants tolerate my non-technical bio.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 13 Oct 2009, 03:44 pm
Currently I am finishing up on my current speaker project which uses a "waveguide" loaded compression driver for 1Khz up.  Its a hybrid of sorts.   I, however, have a growing fascination with horns.  I really want to tinker and experiment with horns.  Like I mentioned in the thread that inspired this thread, it will likely never amount to more than a basement project, but that is fine.

For the purposes of this thread, I think we can agree that we are interested in discussing front-loaded horns (FLH), not back-loaded horns, which is a different animal altogether.  Given how fractionalized the horn community is, that might be all that we agree upon, but that is ok.   I can respect other's decisions or rationale even if it doesn't agree with mine.

Everyone has a different take and spin on FLHs.  There is the conical crowd (you), the OS crowd (me, thus far), the tractrix, the Le'cleach, spherical, etc, etc.  But I think we should see past our differences and realize that we are drawn by a similar passion.  Different solutions based on differences in order of priorities. 

FLHs have a limited bandwidth and anyone looking to do horn loading for a predominance of the audio range is going to accept that the system will be huge.  Most draw a line in the sand where to desire to horn-load the system is met with practical limitations on size allowance.

I think the amount of solutions to the highest frequencies, be it somewhere above 600hz on up, are out there.  There still isn't much in the way of good solutions for the lower midrange, say 100hz-1khz, apart from serious DIY endeavors.  Horns for this range are as scarce as hens teeth, at least outside of the pro audio world.  Its exactly this range I have been most interested in.

I'd like to see more ideas drawn up on how to cover the lower mids to mate with a HF horn that can be accessible to the novice builder (I am assuming we would have to build any solution).  Maybe another larger conical  would be best.  Your thoughts?

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 13 Oct 2009, 03:59 pm
Is this about crafting your own horn, or just using a premade horn to incorporate into a loudspeaker project?

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 13 Oct 2009, 04:09 pm
I am interested in a FLH project also.  I have a small area that is going to be a "reading room" that will need a system.  I am thinking one ST,FLH,Woofer,Sub. 

Do good mid FLH have to be 3' long?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 04:19 pm
I am interested in a FLH project also.  I have a small area that is going to be a "reading room" that will need a system.  I am thinking one ST,FLH,Woofer,Sub. 

Do good mid FLH have to be 3' long?
Bigger horns can cover a wider bandwidth allowing for fewer drivers and fewer crossover points. Dispersion and driver integration issues can require a larger space as you need to have a certain listening distance for these to be effective.
There's a fellow named John in Philly (Nullspace) who created a very sophisticated OB horn system that you might like to investigate.

http://www.acoustichorn.com/news/index.php?id=3689716252287709688

As an aside to a fellow Zu aficionado, Sean Casey cut his teeth on horns and still thinks they are the best approach. The Zu sound and character arise from his attempts to approximate horn performance with dynamic drivers. Obviously Zu is trying to keep their hardware compact.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 13 Oct 2009, 04:20 pm
Is this about crafting your own horn, or just using a premade horn to incorporate into a loudspeaker project?

Either.  This is meant as a topic to discuss all things horn speakers.  There wasn't a natural place for this thread and given that it typically requires some discussion of technical topics, we felt it best belonged in the lab. 

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 13 Oct 2009, 04:21 pm
If WAF wasn't an issue I would have jumped on the midbass horns JLH was selling (see his full sized 120hz horn ad on diyAudio).  The typical horn-lover simple doesn't have access to this type of solution, apart from hiring someone like JLH to build them for you.  Maybe the lack of products exemplifies the lack of demand.  Still there are many horn lovers out there.

I don't consider myself yet a horny.  I just have an interest to explore this niche of audio.  I haven't heard eny such setup, apart from the hybrid Avantgarde Duo in a difficult acoustic environment. 

So why horns?  I know some lurkers are probably asking that question.  A lot has been written on the subject, but I'll add my naive understandings of what makes horns interesting. 
1) controlled dispersion.  Horns naturally focus dispersion in a much narrower angle than dynamic drivers in a flat baffle.  This is beneficial in lowering particularly the early reflections from the reverberant field.  This can also be done like Geddes has done it with a large format midbass driver and a waveguide for the HFs.  So all horn solutions aren't necessary to acheive this end.  Its theorized that early reflections are the most problematic acoustic anomalies in reproducing audio in a small room.
2) lower distortion.  This might seem counter-intuitive to many traditional audiophiles who are used to thinking that pro audio drivers have roller coaster frequency responses.  Indeed many do.  But that isn't all that is important, and in many ways is often much easier to deal with then other issues. 
A good example might be looking at typical THD charts of a compression driver.  It is true that most CD have higher than a dome tweeter when comparing straight THDs, but that obscurs the real story.  CDs have a high constant second harmonic distortion (the one your ears don't hear well). 
Where CDs kick the dome's butt is level dependency of distortion and harmonic profile.  Dome's distortion sets in quickly at higher and higher levels.  It also starts compressing quickly with any real power applied.  For a domestic environment CDs have none of these issues.  The increase in distortion with level is practically negligible.  So tonal balance doesn't change from soft to loud.  Standard audiophile two-ways get very aggressive sounding to my ears at louder levels (higher harmonics coming up).  A hi-efficiency speaker like Geddes's (my frame of reference) does not.  It sounds the same just louder.
3) sensitivity.  This is one of the most popular notions of horns.  Everyone thinks horns are all about finding speakers for the flea amp crowd.  There is much more than that.  Truth is, it is exponentially easier to design and live with LINEAR amps that are lower powered than high powered equivalents.  Class A/B, class D, and other classes were all invented to get around the need for more power without creating huge monstrousities of amps that require their own power plant and generate huge amounts of heat.  However, if we only need a skosh of power, then class A amps are tolerable.  Class A amps don't have crossover distortion and typically have more tolerable harmonic distortion profiles.  In short the demands placed on the amps goes down tremendously.  I seriously believe that there is something to simple amp topologies that is lost in the complexity of most higher powered amps.  Notice I said nothing about tubes vs solid state.  I am open minded on that topic, although I enjoy building tube gear.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 13 Oct 2009, 04:27 pm
Bigger horns can cover a wider bandwidth allowing for fewer drivers and fewer crossover points. Dispersion and driver integration issues can require a larger space as you need to have a certain listening distance for these to be effective.

No offense intended, but I am not sure I totally agree.  Horns are band pass devices of a limited bandwidth.  Some horns have better bandwidth than others but all are limited.  Trying to get too much bandwidth of a single horn is said to be a large part of why horns have such a bad name in popular thinking.

The larger the horn the lower the range it can cover all else being equal.  But this usually comes with the top end rolling off as well.  Its a balancing act.  I think this is what requires that the end user knows more than required in other areas of audio, unless plunking down a large sum of money for a turn-key solution. 

I say first have a very clear idea of what range you wish to cover with the horn.  Then size the horn to that range if doable and take care of how the dispersion of the two adjacent drivers matches with the horn at the crossover region.


Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 04:56 pm
Josh - Don't worry about contradicting me. Anything I say on here is a result of supposition. I do not pretend to speak with authority on scientific matters.

 Before I chose to own these horns I had very little experience with any kind of horns and had only heard Cerwin Vega, Klipsch and JBL in home settings and was too closed minded about the subject to actually discover their strengths. I guess the AvantGarde, Jadis, Oswald Mill, etc. phenomenon opened my eyes. I started thinking that those crafty Japanese audiophiles that bought up all of our Western Electric and RCA stuff might just have known what they were doing. And well-healed audiophiles of my acquaintance who could afford Wilson and other such were beginning to buy, enjoy and endorse them. This must be a good thing. How can I afford to get in this game?

Are there others among us who have not thought about horns because they are too expensive to buy and too difficult to make? Or does everybody out there think they honk?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Niteshade on 13 Oct 2009, 05:11 pm
I use Klipsch RF-83's in one system and believe they're a very,very good speaker.  :D

In what sense are you talking about horn speakers?:

1. The tweeter
2. Tweeter & midrange
3. Folded horn woofer
4. Full range driver

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 13 Oct 2009, 05:41 pm
Waveguide is often used in connection with ideas popularized by Dr. Geddes.  He proposed mathematics for modeling of waveguides, waveguide theory if you will, instead of the the traditional webster equations.

For the layman, use of the word waveguide is more in reference to what your goal is than the device itself.   WGs are generally constant directivity (horns are often not).  Dumbed down even further, often WGs are more about controlling the dispersion characteristics rather than acoustic loading of the driver. 

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 13 Oct 2009, 05:58 pm
I built a pair of Gedlee speakers and love them.  With nearfield listening what differences in sound would one expect going from the OS waveguide to a conical horn using the same driver?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 13 Oct 2009, 06:22 pm
That is a very contentious issue.  One which I'd rather not touch.  I know what the theory says, but I've never heard the comparison myself. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 13 Oct 2009, 06:25 pm
Ok so what are the camps?  OS is .... Conical is ....

I chose the Gedlee speaks because I liked the science behind them.  It made sense to me.  I did not really research other horn types. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 06:52 pm
Here's what Bill Woods says about Conical designs:

http://www.acoustichorn.com/tech/conical/index.html

I don't even know what OS stands for so I can't help you there. It isn't Operating System, is it?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 13 Oct 2009, 06:55 pm
Oblate spheroid
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 07:05 pm
Oblate spheroid

WOW!!! I was just thinking that "Waveguide" sounded like a proprietary  euphemism. Oblate spheroid just totally eclipses it though. I'm headed for the dictionary. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 13 Oct 2009, 07:10 pm
The shape is what it is.  If I remember correctly Earl states in his white papers that waveguide is just another name for horn. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 13 Oct 2009, 07:37 pm
See JoshKs 2nd post on some types of horns. OS is 1 type. What the OS horn does, that is different from the others, is to limit diffraction artifacts. Is this important? Depends on who you ask. There are monster threads at DIYAudio on this very subject by leading proponents in the field. There are no easy answers. In my experience horns are like any other component in audio. Most are crap or mediocre, but those who know what they're doing can make some extraordinarily great sounding gems. And, like any other subject in audio, there are compromises in any design.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 13 Oct 2009, 08:46 pm
I chose the Gedlee speaks because I liked the science behind them.  It made sense to me.  I did not really research other horn types.

I chose conical horns because I met Bill Woods at a show, liked both him and his horns. I did not really research other horn types.

Which is my way of suggesting that there are most likely few people that have heard all or even many of the different types of horns; it makes it tough to have an educated opinion -- mine certainly isn't.

Of the basic types (exponential, hyperbolic, tractrix, spherical, conical, oblate spheroid) conical & OS are actually pretty similar from a theoretical perspective, the difference being the throat transition. Specific examples tend to be different, as conicals you see out in the wild tend to be fairly narrow, 50-60deg, whereas the OS waveguides are usually 90deg and feature a large transitional roundover at the mouth.

Generally, though, I think that if you keep in mind what you're looking for from your horn & compression driver, any of the major types can work if you make informed decisions. For instance, I have a smallish room and a decent power response is something I value. I don't think a big 300hz horn would work in my smallish room, so I'm using a horn with a 1000hz cutoff and crossing around 1.2khz. Since I like a decent power response, tractix is definitely out. I think a narrow-directivity like the 50deg conical I have does better in a narrow room than a wide-directivity horn like Dr. Geddes' 90deg OS waveguide. So that's how I ended up where I ended.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JohnR on 13 Oct 2009, 10:16 pm
macrojack - nice looking horns.

I've been somewhat interested in these (the AH-550):

  http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

JohnR
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 Oct 2009, 11:08 pm
Thanks for the compliment, John, but these are my horns:

http://www.acoustichorn.com/news/index.php?id=6580107509037206863

Click on the pictures to enlarge them. Bill includes some info in his commentary.

These horns have a narrow dispersion of 40 degrees, that's only 20 degrees off axis on each side, so you want to sit back at least 10 feet. Many of the guys on here live in large cities where indoor space can be damn expensive. For them, this approach may not be viable. My room is about 330 sq. ft. and bigger would surely be better. Off axis response, while not horrible, certainly doesn't justify the investment. Sitting in the very wide sweet spot pays for itself handsomely.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: acwd1950 on 13 Oct 2009, 11:29 pm
I built my first horn a folded one. BIB. Used a 4 inch Tang Band fullrange driver. They are pretty good. I would like to build another pair but use a 8 inch TB driver instead. I used a calculator that I found online. Because I dont understand all of the theory or math thats involved. Just enough to try them for the first time and to be dangerous LOL

Steve
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 13 Oct 2009, 11:34 pm
Nice link John.  Those look nice and pretty cheap.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JDUBS on 14 Oct 2009, 12:22 am
When I lived in Chicago, I used a pair of Oris 150 horns and AER-BD3 drivers.  Here's a pic:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=6689)

They were awesome and I'll have big horns again.  The nice thing about these is that they reach down to 150-160Hz.

-Jim
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 14 Oct 2009, 01:29 am
My experience with horns goes back to 1972 when I worked sound at the Ohio University coffee house. We used Altec Lansing A7, or Voice of the Theater. This was a sectoral horn with a compression driver and a bass reflex cab with exponential horn on a 15" bass driver. 
http://www.alteclansing.com/index.php?file=north_product_detail&iproduct_id=a7
These were very efficient and could fill a large ballroom with rock vocals using a 60 watt amp per speaker. They sounded great, BUT they sounded like horns. The sectoral horn had a characteristic 'ring' to them that I can still hear on tapes that I can listen to today of recordings made back then. A lot of horns have a resonant ring to them if they are not properly dampened. Either the material they are made of is not thick enough or the material itself has a resonance. Even if a horn is properly dampened, there is a characteristic horn sound dependant on the amount of diffraction caused by the geometric profile of the horn flare. Over time this can ultimately lead to dissatisfaction, and lead to seeking something better. Knowing all this caused me to shy away from horns until I saw the SP Technology products here on AC. I now own a pair of SP Tech, now Aether Audio, Timepiece Minis. Bob Smith has solved some of the inherent problems of horns and compromised their shortcomings in just the right way to offer an outstanding product. I'm extremely happy with mine. See my avatar. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 14 Oct 2009, 01:49 am
Anyone know the similarities between sp tech and gedlee? 
They look similar but I am not sure if it is only skin deep.  I have read accounts that they do not sound similar.  Is sp tech cd?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 14 Oct 2009, 02:13 am
Firstly, Bob uses a dome instead of a compression driver. Differences were noted earlier in the thread. Secondly, its not strictly an OS but starts as an OS and flares to a different geometry. Thirdly, Bob uses no foam in the horn to reduce diffraction. To be sure, there are other differences, but these are the major ones. My biggest concern when considering purchase was the crossover. I was coming from Omega A8s using a Visaton B200 driver that was was a response to displeasure with 2 and 3 way designs. Respected sources indicated that there was no sign of crossover artifacts. I only bring this up to point out that just because one aspect of speaker design might be superior, or solve a previous problem, other aspects must be gotten right to achieve superior results. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: doug s. on 14 Oct 2009, 02:19 am
When I lived in Chicago, I used a pair of Oris 150 horns and AER-BD3 drivers...

They were awesome and I'll have big horns again.  The nice thing about these is that they reach down to 150-160Hz.

-Jim
my first real taste of horns was in 1996 when i heard the jadis eurythmie's at the nyc s'phile show.  i was extremely taken - best sound at the show, imo.  i yust kept going back to that room.  several years later, i heard the first iteration of the avantgarde duo's at a local stereo shop (deja vu audio), and again, i was taken in...

now, i am also enjoying a pair of oris 150's, w/ decware- modded fostex fe206e's.  before, i had stock fe206e's; also excellent, imo.  my present listening room, tho quite large, at ~750sf, only allows for a seated distance of ~8'-9' from the mouth of the horns, as the room is a studio apartment, that has to make do w/the rest of apartment life.  while ok, i can tell you w/o a doubt, that 12' away, or even more, would be better.  careful shopping got me these horns, w/the custom-upgraded klipsch lascala bass-bins, (beefed-up cabinets & fostex 15" pro-audio drivers), for ~$2k - a freaking bargain, imo.  (i am still using my vmps larger subs, crossed to the bass-bins at 80hz; all is actively crossed over & eq'd w/a deqx.)  i love the sound, and haven't switched in/out any of my other excellent, (imo), speakers in over a year...  (of course, part of that is the fact that i really don't have anywhere else to put these big honkers, if i were to hook up anything else!   :lol: )

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13740)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13741)

presently, i have switched the subs w/the horns, to get them even further from the listening position.  and, the room is actually a bit wider than indicated by the pic - the room bumps out ~3', yust past where you see the side walls in the foto.  also, the pioneer/tad ribbon super-tweeters wisible in the pics are not connected - no need, as i get flat response from the oris/fostex set-up out to 22khz...

doug s.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 14 Oct 2009, 02:44 am

Anyone know the similarities between sp tech and gedlee? 
They look similar but I am not sure if it is only skin deep.  I have read accounts that they do not sound similar.  Is sp tech cd?

I have a set of the Geddes Abbeys and also a set of SP Tech Timepieces though a quite old version. I'm sure the newer ones are different. To my ears they do not sound very similar.

The SP's have a lower sensitivity and can suck up power like a sponge while the Abbeys are quite easy to drive. Obviously the wave guide is a different profile as is the use of the foam in the Geddes design. The SP's play quite a bit lower in the bass while subs are mandatory for the Abbeys if one wants any real bass.

I prefer the Abbeys but that is my preference, I am not in any way discounting the SP Tech/Aether Audio speakers. As one of the few who actually own both I'm in a position to choose.

I will say that without the foam, the Abbeys are more like what I consider a traditional horn in sound and I don't much care for them that way. One visitor who has heard them mentioned he might try some type of open cell foam in his Altecs.

The pair of horns I've heard that floor me every time are the big Cogent horns that Chris Brady of Teres Audio owns. He has added ion-o-vac plasma tweeters since this photo. They are just so freakin' immediate.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22715)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: doug s. on 14 Oct 2009, 02:56 am
mike, you said, re: chris brady's horns:  "...They are just so freakin' immediate..."  that, in a nutshell, sums up what attracted me to the eurythmie's, and to the duo's.  and, it's why i love my oris set-up.  something about the immediacy of big horns makes it harder to go back to other designs...

doug s.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 03:04 am
Agree completely.

Mike, do you know what Chris's crossover points are? I believe I heard somewhere that those Cogent field coils and larger horns reach down to 250 Hz. That's nice but I don't need it for the price difference. I'm saving my envy for his bass horns. How low do they go?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 14 Oct 2009, 03:10 am
Mike, do you know what Chris's crossover points are? I believe I heard somewhere that those Cogent field coils and larger horns reach down to 250 Hz. That's nice but I don't need it for the price difference. I'm saving my envy for his bass horns. How low do they go?

Tom,

I don't know the specifics. I do know he reworked the crossovers and he mentioned that changing the crossover point by only a small amount made a substantial difference. The bass horns go pretty low but I believe he has subs as well, at least last time I was over a few months ago.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 14 Oct 2009, 03:14 am
I know exactly what you're saying Doug. I get a lot of that with my Abbeys but not to the same degree. Now that I've lived with reasonably high efficiency horn type speakers for a while I don't think I can go back to a more conventional setup. I love the immediacy and dynamic envelope. I picked up an 845 based SET a couple of weeks ago and I'm starting to see the attraction.

mike, you said, re: chris brady's horns:  "...They are just so freakin' immediate..."  that, in a nutshell, sums up what attracted me to the eurythmie's, and to the duo's.  and, it's why i love my oris set-up.  something about the immediacy of big horns makes it harder to go back to other designs...
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JohnR on 14 Oct 2009, 03:21 am
I too would be more interested in knowing more about crossover points and so on. For example, if a compression driver manufacturer recommends a specific crossover point, it must surely be OK to use a lower frequency or lower slope for domestic use, where the compression driver will be padded down 10 or more dB to match the mid (/woofer).

I personally would be very interested to know more about experiences (and crossover information - frequency, slopes, active/passive) with a (wide band) 15" crossing to a horn and compression driver.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 03:25 am
Mike,

I'm going to have to contact Bill Woods about those speakers. It's his design built around Cogent's drivers and I remember when I told him about Chris having them he said he had been there when they were installed. That's about all I recall. Oswald Mill uses the same horns as well but they have a bass reflex cabinet more similar to mine.

I wonder why more people aren't switching to horns. After every show you hear raves about the OMA room or Classic Audio Reproductions. Obviously they go over well. The stumbling block must be the price of finished systems. OMA's horn speakers at RMAF last year were like $65,000 and Cogent gets $15,000 for just the mid range drivers. Chris must have laid out mortgage money for that speaker system he has. Gedlee looks affordable though. What did your project cost and how much skill did it require?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 12:31 pm
JohnR - When I was buying my horns from Bill I asked him about crossovers and how I should pursue that. He set up a system like mine and determined the points and slopes and corrections I would need. Then I bought my Drive Rack and just punched in his suggestions. It worked out very well and subsequent experimentation on my part never improved on anything.

Bill made it foolproof so he could enable this fool. I'm a very happy customer.

I told him at one point that he seemed to be the leading authority on horns and he said that title belongs to Tom Danley.
Danley's stuff doesn't appear to me to be scaled or dressed for home use.

In case any of you don't know, Bill has been designing professional speakers for over 30 years and was the chief design engineer for Yorkville Sound for 18 years. He's semi-retired now and continues to experiment with horn development in his home laboratory/workshop in rural Hastings, Ontario. He was very available for conversation and questions when I was dealing with him. He knows this stuff well and loves to talk about it. Most importantly, he made it possible for someone with my limited resources to own world class horns. Mine are made of 12 "petals" of inch thick cherry wood joined to form the conical horn shape. Part two included in the price is a powder coated cast aluminum throat adaptor machined to accept any driver you want to use within a certain size range. Mine are B&C DCX 50 (2 inch) compression drivers that Bill recommended. The horns were about $2300/pr. and the drivers were about $1000. My old JBL L-200 were already here so I used them as bass speakers. I've seen the same ones for sale on line for around $1100/pr. The dbx Drive Rack PA from Amazon was $399 and I paid another $95 for the dbx calibration mic. So far the whole project is under $5K. I paid a metal worker $100 to fabricate a pair of brackets to mount the horns above the bass cabinets but I'm sure you guys would make your own.

These look good and sound great. I figure I have something very comparable to the OMA system that was at RMAF last year for about $60,000 less and I have active crossover, parametric eq, graphic eq, time delay, and room correction that was not included in his package. This definitely bears investigation. As Bill says, it's an heirloom product - it should hold up well for generations.

As I stated at the top of this thread, I am not a Lab type but this was easy even for me. For you guys it will probably only be a starting point. I was a customer for Bill. You might be his collaborators.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 14 Oct 2009, 12:44 pm
Lots of horn lovers talk about how the immediacy is only matched with planar speakers.  Except that horns have slam, planars don't. 

I think the hardest part of Chris Brady's crossover is going to be the time delay/alignment.  How can you possibly do that in the analog domain?  His system is ripe for a digital crossover that can delay substantially the HF horn to match the LF horn.

I do like that he aligned the mouths of horns though.  Most hornies align the drivers in an attempt to match the acoustic centers for time alignment, but that results in the time alignment for only the on-axis direction.  Move off axis and they are no longer time aligned.  Therefore the power response isn't even into the room. I never thought of that before JohnK pointed it out, but its true.  Then again most hornies don't seem to concern themselves with power response.



Anyway, I am rambling on again. 

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 14 Oct 2009, 12:47 pm
JohnR - When I was buying my horns from Bill I asked him about crossovers and how I should pursue that. He set up a system like mine and determined the points and slopes and corrections I would need.

I used to think his horns were way too expensive.  Then when I realized that he designs your speakers for you when you buy his horns, the value proposition started to make more sense. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 14 Oct 2009, 01:04 pm
Those AH!300 wood horns are heirlooms for sure.  Simply stunning inho.

The Gedlee speaker kits did run $1800 for the 10" and $2600 for the 12".  I think he has increased his prices but the kits are also easier as I think the cabs are pre glued.  The guy never stops tweaking so it can be hard to keep up. 
I got the 10" but it seems like 9 out of 10 have the 12".  I have a small room and the sale of my old speakers completely payed for the kit so it was perfect fit.  I would say I put another $200 in for paint, glue, bondo and random supplys.
I am not 100% clear on the advatages or the 12" over the 10". 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 14 Oct 2009, 01:16 pm
I am not 100% clear on the advatages or the 12" over the 10".

The idea is pattern control further down in frequency.  The 10" waveguides can't hold the pattern as low as the 12", the 12" can't hold as low as the 15", etc.  The larger woofers also narrow their directivity lower in frequency so they help a little too.  The trade off is the size. 

For a small room, the 10" are probably the right fit.  Add subs and your golden.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 14 Oct 2009, 01:24 pm

Anyone know the similarities between sp tech and gedlee? 
They look similar but I am not sure if it is only skin deep.  I have read accounts that they do not sound similar.  Is sp tech cd?

I have a set of the Geddes Abbeys and also a set of SP Tech Timepieces though a quite old version. I'm sure the newer ones are different. To my ears they do not sound very similar.

The SP's have a lower sensitivity and can suck up power like a sponge while the Abbeys are quite easy to drive. Obviously the wave guide is a different profile as is the use of the foam in the Geddes design. The SP's play quite a bit lower in the bass while subs are mandatory for the Abbeys if one wants any real bass.

I prefer the Abbeys but that is my preference, I am not in any way discounting the SP Tech/Aether Audio speakers. As one of the few who actually own both I'm in a position to choose.

I will say that without the foam, the Abbeys are more like what I consider a traditional horn in sound and I don't much care for them that way. One visitor who has heard them mentioned he might try some type of open cell foam in his Altecs.

Outstanding comparison. I have been working with Jim Goulding experimenting with his Diffractionbegone pads to reduce diffraction. So far its my impression is that only at higher SPLs do they make an audible improvement. Has it been your experience that at lower volumes the foam has less of an effect? Also, which would you say is the more linear speaker? One of the knocks against higher efficiency designs is that they tend to get less linear the higher the sensitivity. Of course with bi and tri amplified designs its possible to use a digital Xover, as macrojack has done, to solve THAT problem.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 14 Oct 2009, 01:34 pm
Konut,

The dependency of diffraction audibility and SPL is documented by Geddes.  They found that to be the case in their empirical studies.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 14 Oct 2009, 01:40 pm
I did read from Geddes that the psychoacoustic response to High Order Modes (HOM) in horns, resulting from diffraction (but not equivalent), are much worse as you go higher in SPLs. 

The foam in the waveguide is to attenuate HOMs.


What I believe lower diffraction on a speaker at any spl will do is make the speaker more intelligible, enhance clarity. Which is why the Geddes speakers also have large radius roundovers, and meticulous smoothing of sharp edges throughout the tweeter -waveguide interface.

-Tony
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 14 Oct 2009, 01:51 pm
I would say that the foam made a huge difference at all listening levels.  Maybe at lower levels it is less obvious but still there.  I think it has also been said that while attenuating HOMs it also reduces the energy or attenuates the high frequecys.  I could be wrong though.
The speakers were a bit harsh before I put in the plugs.  Not a lot but a bit. 

I wonder what would happen if Macrojack stuffed his horns with the opencell foam?     
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 14 Oct 2009, 02:04 pm
I recall reading that adjustments to the crossover needed to be made to compensate for the attenuation, at the highest frequencies, by the foam. I'm trying to line the Minis' waveguide with the wool padding to decrease HOMs without attenuating the high freqs.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 02:08 pm
Is there a way to talk about horns in English? What is diffraction? I know distortion and can't say I hear any until I reach an SPL that seems to overwhelm my space. Bill states that a conical horn is the only shape that permits sound waves to emerge from the horn mouth intact and undisturbed. If he's right, that would explain the need for rounded edges and cell foam implants in non-conical horns.

I spent a bit of time reading at Oswald's Mill site and I've gleaned from topics peppered here and there that there are intense differences of opinion among horn designers that sometimes have them at each others throats. If a few of those guys show up here, we will have to proclaim no religion, no politics, and no horn talk. A lot of it was apparently incited by Romy the Cat.

So, if we are talking about light, I understand diffraction. Is that the same with sound? If so, what causes it? Could it have to do with the disturbance of the pattern of sound waves as they move from the throat to the mouth and out to our ears? And what would I look for and why would I want to, stuff foam in my horns? What are High Order Modes?

By the way, I haven't mentioned this but my drivers are coax and I have never hooked up the tweeter. Bill told me he tried it and thought it was too hot so, even though I have the passive XO parts here, I haven't bothered. Someday curiosity might overcome me but for now I don't care. My upper end probably rolls off above 14Khz. I probably can't hear even that high.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 14 Oct 2009, 02:15 pm
Quote
If a few of those guys show up here, we will have to proclaim no religion, no politics, and no horn talk.

well as of now no horn designers and its pretty nice.

I think a HOM is sort of like a bass mode just inside the mouth of the horn.  Is this correct?

Diffraction happens with all waves
Quote
Diffraction is normally taken to refer to various phenomena which occur when a wave encounters an obstacle. It is described as the apparent bending of waves around small obstacles and the spreading out of waves past small openings. Similar effects are observed when light waves travel through a medium with a varying refractive index or a sound wave through one with varying acoustic impedance. Diffraction occurs with all waves, including sound waves, water waves, and electromagnetic waves such as visible light, x-rays and radio waves. As physical objects have wave-like properties (at the atomic level), diffraction also occurs with matter and can be studied according to the principles of quantum mechanics.

While diffraction occurs whenever propagating waves encounter such changes, its effects are generally most pronounced for waves where the wavelength is on the order of the size of the diffracting objects. If the obstructing object provides multiple, closely-spaced openings, a complex pattern of varying intensity can result. This is due to the superposition, or interference, of different parts of a wave that traveled to the observer by different paths (see diffraction grating).

The formalism of diffraction can also describe the way in which waves of finite extent propagate in free space. For example, the expanding profile of a laser beam, the beam shape of a radar antenna and the field of view of an ultrasonic transducer are all explained by diffraction theory.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 02:32 pm
The stock horns in my JBLs have what JBL calls "diffraction lenses" velcroed onto the baffle over the horn mouths. Perhaps these reorganize the sound waves to reinstate original integrity. Previously I had assumed they were provided to create dispersion since the horns are short and narrow.

I don't pretend to understand the relationships between throat diameter, horn length, and angle of expansion. These variables do effect the loading of the horn and the integrity of the sound waves that emerge I'm told but my untrained mind starts to cramp when I speculate about what it all might mean. Maybe book-learnin is a good thing after all.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 14 Oct 2009, 03:03 pm
Most hornies align the drivers in an attempt to match the acoustic centers for time alignment, but that results in the time alignment for only the on-axis direction.  Move off axis and they are no longer time aligned.

Not to pick nits, Josh, but isn't that the case with most all loudspeakers (conceptually, I'll except coaxial speakers), that it can only be time-aligned on one specific axis? On any other axis, you could be close to time-aligned but the trig just doesn't allow it.

Therefore the power response isn't even into the room.

My larger point, then, is that I don't think this is true. I don't think time-alignment is either necessary or sufficient to achieve a decent power response. You can achieve decent power reponse without aligning the acoustic centers, and you can get poor power response with closely aligned acoustic-centers -- think Altec 604s. I would think that it is more a matter of matching increasing directivity of one driver to the widening directivity of the other driver, and paying close attention to phase-coherence across a wide range of on- and off-axis responses.

I hope that's not an incohernet mess. Does that make sense?

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 03:10 pm
Please define "power response".
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 14 Oct 2009, 03:16 pm
II picked up an 845 based SET a couple of weeks ago and I'm starting to see the attraction.

Mike,

Could you tell us a bit more about your 845 SET? The reson I ask is because, since it's SET I assume no-feedback and therefore a 2-3ohm output impedence, based on the Abbey's impedence plot you posted the freq. response should differ from the official plot Dr. Geddes has posted at his website. And I would like to hear your impressions on how the speakers sound with the SET.

I'm mightily curious about the Abbeys, but were I to snag a pair I'd almost certainly try putting a LCR across the speaker to smooth about the impedence bump at 1.5khz.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 14 Oct 2009, 03:18 pm
Please define "power response".

here is a decent explanation about mid way down
http://www.aeronet.com.au/concepts2.htm

Here is a link to some musings from Linkwitz on perception of sound from loudspeakers
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/speakers.htm
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 14 Oct 2009, 03:22 pm
I recall reading that adjustments to the crossover needed to be made to compensate for the attenuation, at the highest frequencies, by the foam. I'm trying to line the Minis' waveguide with the wool padding to decrease HOMs without attenuating the high freqs.

I have seen this too. And it makes a lot more intuitive sense than the more complex subjects we are getting into!
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 14 Oct 2009, 03:27 pm
Please define "power response".

"The power response of a speaker is the total of both its off-axis and on-axis amplitude response. In other words, it is the total acoustical power that is radiated into space."

The logical follow-up to that is: So what? Why would one care what a speaker's power response is? The truth is, some do and some don't, and I suspect a lot of it has to do with their respective listening habits.

There are some designers that focus only/ primarily on on-axis measurements, and they listen generally on- or slightly off-axis. The mammouth "Beyond the Ariel" thread at diyAudio, Lynn Olson has said he cares most about on-axis measurements and doesn't get very hung up about power response. Consequently, he's using horns that don't have as a goal a great power response. He's well-respected and I take him at his word on whether or not power response is important.

Others, like Earl Geddes, give no more thought to the on-axis response than they do to any one off-axis measurement -- it's about the total power radiated into the room. Generally, people who listen to these speakers do so off-axis or, in my case, frequently from another room. I often have my stereo on while I'm cooking or doing other various duties and it's important to me for the sound to be right from anywhere on the first-floor. And an even power response helps greatly with that.

Horses for courses...

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 14 Oct 2009, 03:36 pm
They are a pair of the Consonance Cyber 845's and I don't they have any feedback. I have not traced the circuit yet, so I can't be 100% certain.

I do plan on trying a Zobel to try and smooth out the impedance bumps and make life a little easier for the amp. Assuming I can find time this weekend I plan on measuring the amps, including the output impedance. I need to calculate the values for a Zobel as well along with what seems to be a ton of other things. ;)

II picked up an 845 based SET a couple of weeks ago and I'm starting to see the attraction.

Mike,

Could you tell us a bit more about your 845 SET? The reson I ask is because, since it's SET I assume no-feedback and therefore a 2-3ohm output impedence, based on the Abbey's impedence plot you posted the freq. response should differ from the official plot Dr. Geddes has posted at his website. And I would like to hear your impressions on how the speakers sound with the SET.

I'm mightily curious about the Abbeys, but were I to snag a pair I'd almost certainly try putting a LCR across the speaker to smooth about the impedence bump at 1.5khz.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 14 Oct 2009, 03:44 pm
Thanks Mike; I'm really interested to hear your thoughts concerning w/ and w/out impedence compensation for the Abbey. It seems to me it ought to make a difference, but who knows...

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 14 Oct 2009, 04:01 pm
Please define "power response".

"The power response of a speaker is the total of both its off-axis and on-axis amplitude response. In other words, it is the total acoustical power that is radiated into space."

The logical follow-up to that is: So what? Why would one care what a speaker's power response is? The truth is, some do and some don't, and I suspect a lot of it has to do with their respective listening habits.

There are some designers that focus only/ primarily on on-axis measurements, and they listen generally on- or slightly off-axis. The mammouth "Beyond the Ariel" thread at diyAudio, Lynn Olson has said he cares most about on-axis measurements and doesn't get very hung up about power response. Consequently, he's using horns that don't have as a goal a great power response. He's well-respected and I take him at his word on whether or not power response is important.

Others, like Earl Geddes, give no more thought to the on-axis response than they do to any one off-axis measurement -- it's about the total power radiated into the room. Generally, people who listen to these speakers do so off-axis or, in my case, frequently from another room. I often have my stereo on while I'm cooking or doing other various duties and it's important to me for the sound to be right from anywhere on the first-floor. And an even power response helps greatly with that.

Horses for courses...

Regards,
John

Thanks John and Trader _ I get the concept now and John's explanation of the practical consequences helped immensely. My system is on all the time (one reason I use SS, not tubes) and I find that it is way different once I move outside the 40 degree dispersion of the horns.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 14 Oct 2009, 04:08 pm
Thats one thing that I LOVE about the Nathans.  You can move all around the room and they still sound great.  The soundstage shifts but is still sharp and in focus.  I also have my system on all the time and it provides music to the whole 1st floor.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 14 Oct 2009, 04:23 pm
Most hornies align the drivers in an attempt to match the acoustic centers for time alignment, but that results in the time alignment for only the on-axis direction.  Move off axis and they are no longer time aligned.

Not to pick nits, Josh, but isn't that the case with most all loudspeakers (conceptually, I'll except coaxial speakers), that it can only be time-aligned on one specific axis? On any other axis, you could be close to time-aligned but the trig just doesn't allow it.

Your right.  However, if the horns are CD, and the mouths are aligned, then the forward directivity should be fairly close for reasonable off axis angles, don't you think?  At least closer than that of dislocated mouths.

Therefore the power response isn't even into the room.

My larger point, then, is that I don't think this is true. I don't think time-alignment is either necessary or sufficient to achieve a decent power response. You can achieve decent power reponse without aligning the acoustic centers, and you can get poor power response with closely aligned acoustic-centers -- think Altec 604s. I would think that it is more a matter of matching increasing directivity of one driver to the widening directivity of the other driver, and paying close attention to phase-coherence across a wide range of on- and off-axis responses.

I hope that's not an incohernet mess. Does that make sense?

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 14 Oct 2009, 04:56 pm
Yes, I think that would be correct, if you're making very conservative choices in terms of the choice of horns & drivers; same coverage angle, well away from actual, measured cutoff frequencies, far removed from any kind of driver breakup & resonances, all the things that will disturb directivity. If not, then I wouldn't be comfortable drawing any conclusions without it becoming a 'measure it and see' situation.

As well, even if you can satisfy those conditions, then you still need to worry about fixing the 'usual' mismatch in acoustical phase plus now you might have a large time delay. These are also things that can muck up the freq. response in the crossover region and by extension the power response.

Broadly speaking, I think you're right Josh, but I don't think that dislocated horn mouths necessarily have a poorer power response. When it gets down to nuts and bolts I think that theory is swamped by practicalities -- there are so many roadblocks & detours, the endpoint has only a little to do with where you started. I don't think you can make a non-CD horn an integral part of a CD speaker, but I can see where purposefully-dislocated horns might give a better power response than an instance where horns where strictly aligned. It's all in the implementation, and unfortunately not many people provide enough information to see all the tradeoffs that went into their decision-making & consequently impacted their projects.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JohnR on 15 Oct 2009, 08:34 am
macrojack - the DCX50 drivers look interesting. I didn't know there was such a thing as a coax compression driver.

nullspace - nice speakers, I hadn't seen those before. I guess a dipole provides more controlled directivity in the lower frequencies, without need of a bass horn. Never really thought of it that way before.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 12:32 pm
JohnR - I had never heard of a coax compression driver either. It was recommended to me by Bill Woods. Both Nullspace and I consulted with him and bought horns from him in the process of  creating our respective speaker systems. If I had learned enough well enough from my project, I would be advising people in this thread as to how to proceed with their endeavors. Since I don't think I have the chops for that mission I will instead urge all of you to engage Bill and see if you think as highly of him as I do.
I hope I'm not coming across as a shill here.

While I don't have a lot of technical knowledge, I have been around this industry in numerous capacities since 1975 and I've learned a lot about what is math and what is marketing. Bill Woods has familiarity and, in many cases, a copy of every significant speaker to come down the pipe in the past 30 years. The only problem you will have with Bill is in restricting him to answering just the question you asked. He is so knowledgeable and so eager to help that you may find yourself drowning in info.
Nullspace - Was that your experience?

Click this link to get a feel for what awaits: http://www.acoustichorn.com/

And then share your impressions in this thread, if you wouldn't mind.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 12:56 pm
macrojack - the DCX50 drivers look interesting. I didn't know there was such a thing as a coax compression driver.

BMS makes a few, B&C now is making one too.  Their is a DCM50 (I think that is the designation) that is just the midrange compression driver from the coax.  In their marketing, they make it sound like it is a cone driver with integral phase plug.  Cool idea.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 12:57 pm
nullspace - nice speakers, I hadn't seen those before. I guess a dipole provides more controlled directivity in the lower frequencies, without need of a bass horn. Never really thought of it that way before.

Thanks John, but don't give me too much credit... I didn't build dipole mids & bass because of any possible advantages in directivity; I did it because even I can't screw up building an open baffle. I think there is good reason to wonder how the transition from cardiod (horns) to dipole (mids) works out in practice. I don't find it objectionable, but many see room for improvement -- see Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion++.htm).

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 01:03 pm
BTW, macrojack, where are you crossing your speakers?  I'm curious where it worked out to be.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 01:14 pm
JoshK- Mine are a two way just now so the only crossover point is 400 or 450 depending on my mood. I can't say I've noticed much difference between them.

I've seen conflicting reports on the original crossover point of the L-200. Some have it as 800 and some places say 1200 hz.
I reasoned that the original JBL horn was much smaller and therefore probably couldn't reach as low as my AH!300 so the woofer was called upon to reach higher. Plus I imagine it is less audible to cross over at a lower frequency. Any truth to that assumption?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 01:28 pm
Plus I imagine it is less audible to cross over at a lower frequency. Any truth to that assumption?

Yes, I do believe there is truth to that.  Our hearing accuity is much sharper at 1khz than at 400hz. 

400-450hz sounds very reasonable.  I know they are 300hz horns and usually one crosses a half octave or more above Fc.  I also know conicals don't load the CD the same way so I wondered if they had to cross higher because of it, but it doesn't look like that is necessary in your application.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 01:33 pm
Speaking of horns, this gallery  (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2164) popped up on the front page.  Lots of cool horns in this gallery.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 01:37 pm
Nullspace - Was that your experience [with Bill Woods]?

I like Bill an awful lot, and I really like the conical horns he sells. I've heard them in a variety of settings & implementations and they all sounded wonderful. Further, I've helped him out with prospective clients in the Phila. area, having them over to have a listen. I'm also on good terms with Jonathan Weiss of OswaldsMillAudio, who sells speakers designed by Bill -- the AC1s from OMA are easily my favorite speaker of all time, and that's not even the top-of-the-line OMA offering, which I haven't yet heard. So, there are my biases...

If you're looking to buy something from Bill, I think you need to be honest with yourself about what you're looking to receive. If you want to buy a turnkey system, where it comes in the door you hook it up and bam! you're done, I'd recommend buying a complete, finished speaker from Bill or OMA. Instead, and since we're in The Lab this probably applies to many of us here, if you're looking to get your hands dirty and choose to view this as a collaborative effort with Bill that is a process, then just buying horns w/ a crossover from Bill makes sense.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 02:45 pm
Josh -
I don't know if this other theory of mine has validity but I also imagined that crossing from a cone woofer to a horn would be less audible the lower you go. I can't say that I hear a crossover point where that transition takes place but there is an obvious difference in character between the two sources. That's why I have a lingering interest in a horn that can work from 500 hz. down to 50 or lower. Got any ideas? The price has to be something I can convince myself to spend.

Bill's been working on one but it is still just a glimmer in his eye. The prototype didn't prove to be viable from a pricing standpoint so he has returned to the drawing board.

I haven't spoken with Bill in 6 months or more so I really don't know quite where he is at presently but I emailed him a link to this thread this morning so he would know I'm talking about him.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 03:05 pm
I've seen what Bill shows on his website.  Looked cool.  As with all horns capable of 50hz, they are quite large.  I think 50hz to 500hz is a tough range to spread from a practical point of view.  The reason is in the bends required.

If you want the horn to fit in your room without taking it all up, bends are going to be needed.  Unfortunately, it seems that the bends limit the useable higher end of the bandwidth.  I know only enough to be dangerous, I am not speaking with authority on this matter but that is what I've read. 

Tom Danley's tapped horns seem to cover the range 50-250hz with good affect.  There are tons of threads on diyaudio about rolling your own tapped horns.  They all seem to hit this range for the ~50hz THs. 

I think if you want to extend up to 500hz, you have to settle for something like 80-100hz on the lower end and use your woofers you have now to cover the bottom section.  That is 3-way unfortunately.  Its just a hard fact to work around that horns usually involves more complicated systems (more ways).



Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 03:35 pm
A spread from 500 down to 80 would at least limit me to one XO point within the vocal range. Following my earlier premise, it would make sense that going to a conventional powered sub below 80 would be minimally intrusive and give me way more extension. So what can you recommend from Danley? I've looked at his website and found that I'm not sure what I'm reading (pro talk) and his stuff is huge, and ugly barely suggests the truth of stage cosmetics. They need to be behind a curtain. Nonetheless, I'd be interested to investigate which of his products might be functionally optimum for my rig. Don't  consider size or appearance in your recommendation. I'll adjust that later as necessary. Ain't this fun!
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 04:43 pm
What about something like this?

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22767)

If Bill comes here maybe he can be more helpful than I.

Josh
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 04:53 pm
Apparently that is a 100hz horn for the cogent midbass compression driver.  However, I think the horn should work with a cone driver if a phase plug is fashioned (think Faital's 5"er).

http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=90.0
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 04:57 pm
In fact, in the OMA Imperia Jonathan isn't using the Cogent FC driver as pictured in the prototype above, but rather some type of cone driver.

http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=247.0

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 15 Oct 2009, 05:08 pm
Damn!  That OMA stuff makes me all tinglly.  The whole place seems like a magical playland for audiophiles. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 05:11 pm
I visited last spring; it's more unbelievable than you can possibly imagine...
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 05:32 pm
While I am certain the Imperia is a sound to behold, I get the impression that the target price is equal to the price of a modest home in the midwest. 

The midbass horn particularly intrigues me.  Actually I had the thought to make something similar after I first saw the 300hz horn.  In fact I bought a set of router bits intended to ease such construction. 

See here:
(http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics3/multisided.jpg)
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_door.html#multisided_glue_anchor
How to guide here:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics2/plans-12-sided-planter.pdf
Need to work out a little geometry, but nothing difficult.

I have in mind to try this cone driver given JLH's experience with it.
(http://www.usspeaker.com/images/faitalpro-M5N12-80-size275.gif)
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%20m5n12-80-1.htm
This one could work too:
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8PE21-1.htm

Here is a good discussion on phase plugs, if it is needed.
http://www.centauriaudio.com.au/diy/plugs.html
(http://www.centauriaudio.com.au/diy/6PlugSpkr.jpg)

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 05:46 pm
What about something like this?

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22767)

If Bill comes here maybe he can be more helpful than I.

Josh

Josh,

I'm not sure about this but I think what you have pictured above is an earlier attempt at Cogent full range. Later they designed what Chris Brady has.
My speakers are essentially the OMA-1 according to Bill, although they have an expensive tweeter in theirs and I've never used my tweeter so it may as well not be there. I believe the OMA-1 has a hardwood cabinet as well where mine is MDF or something akin to it. They date from 1973 so they are made of whatever JBL thought appropriate at the time. They are for sure not hardwood though.

Maybe I should scale back and try something like horn headphones.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 06:08 pm
The midbass horn particularly intrigues me.  Actually I had the thought to make something similar after I first saw the 300hz horn.  In fact I bought a set of router bits intended to ease such construction... 

That looks pretty sweet, Josh. I had briefly messed around with pen & paper to see how difficult it would be to make a petal horn like that, but those router bits would make it almost trivial. Nice find.

I'd love to have a horn that could cover 300-6khz. Unfortunately, I don't have the room for it and I don't know how I'd get reasonable measurements in order to do the crossover.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 06:26 pm
Well, I just received a return email from Bill Woods. He won't be visiting here as he is done with what he calls "public debate". He would, however, welcome inquiries and conversation from any of you who wish to pursue that. He's keeping busy consulting for B&C and RCF right now.

John,
Bill designed and built crossovers for my AH!300 which he probably still has. If so that might take care of one of your obstacles. They were 3-ways I believe.

As for size, my horn mouths are about 16.5 inches i.d.(almost 19 outside point to point) and about 23 inches from front of horn to back of driver. I believe these horns will reach that 300 hz. you want with a different driver.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 07:12 pm
You're right, I could buy the horns then get Bill to do a crossover, but, aggravating as I find it from time to time, I actually like doing the measurement & design stuff so what ever I build has to be within my capabilities. Getting decent measurements down to 150hz in order to figure out a 300hz crossover ain't one of them, unfortunately. Bill and others are bright enough/ have enough experience that they can probably see through a lot of the room clutter & stuff in less than perfect measurements, but I don't have that skill set.

It's not so much the physical size of the horns, but I have a pretty small listening room and I only sit maybe 8-10' from the speakers. In listening to the AH!300s previously, that's too close for me. Now, if we ever move out of our 100yr-old four-square and into a McMansion, game on...

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 07:29 pm
So, there's a couple people with Geddes' waveguides and a couple of us with concial horns...

Anyone with tractrix or possibly Le'Cleach horns like the ones JohnR linked to a couple pages back (Azurahorn (http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html))? Info on implementation?

I'm sure Josh has seen these, but in case others haven't Jack Bouska made some pretty nice wooden OS waveguides with an interesting take on the mouth roundover: Post at Lansing Heritage (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12126).

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 15 Oct 2009, 07:33 pm
Move to Western Colorado. Indoor space is surely cheaper and more available and I could use the company.

As far as DIY is concerned, for me, that is the path of last resort. I'm not handy, scientifically astute, or adventurous so I never even think about my capabilities beyond "How can I pay for it?" and "How can I get it here?". That's why I was not so sure my thread belonged in the Lab.

The crossovers I mentioned were made for me and shipped to me. I returned them so as to pursue the active path (which you might consider). But they already exist and they are basically "plug and play". If it's that easy.......why not just make it happen?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Oct 2009, 09:42 pm
There's been talk of bass horns, so here's a pair from Steve Schell (of Cogent fame) that have a cutoff of 35hz and are reasonably room-friendly. These were actually up for sale on the Lansing forum in the not too distant past. Here's a link to that post:  FS: Big, honking bass horns (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=143719&postcount=1).

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22773)

My 'dream' system would be something like this from 35-300hz, a nice big conical horn with a vintage RCA phenolic driver from 300-6khz, then the little B&C DE35 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-580) from 6khz and up...

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 10:10 pm
As long as we are dreaming, which is very fun to do.  I'd love to put two scaled tapped horns on their side making a 18" platform of sorts for one end of the room like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22780)

Then above this cutoff use a midbass horn like aforementioned, or turn one like these guys did:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22778)

and then use a 15-16" OS guide from 900hz up like Geddes does on the Summa. 

First octave can be IB subs but in multiple locations around the room.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 10:13 pm
Did I mention, I so wanted these?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/136976-full-size-142hz-round-tractrix-horns.html

Wife wasn't having it.   :nono:   
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Oct 2009, 11:28 pm
A set of these would do too.
(http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/portfolio%20pictures/SH50-cherry.JPG)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JDUBS on 16 Oct 2009, 01:09 am
Unitys....yes!!!   :thumb:

-Jim


A set of these would do too.
(http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/portfolio%20pictures/SH50-cherry.JPG)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Oct 2009, 02:41 am
Have you seen the newer SH-69?  It seems more domestic friendly in size. Also the 60? x 90? dispersion is more domestically suited as well.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JDUBS on 16 Oct 2009, 03:44 am
Josh, I just checked out the SH-69 on the Danley website and that thing looks awesome!  I've wanted a pair of SH-100Bs for a while...but these might be (slightly) more realistic.....waaaay down the road.

-Jim







Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 16 Oct 2009, 03:58 am
Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities

Looks like we've cited a lot of opportunities. What would we consider to be the advantages of horns?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 16 Oct 2009, 04:40 am
my guesses...

dynamics/sensitivity:  Enhances engagement to the music, excitement. Allos lower wattage amps to be used

controlled directivity: (on some?) gives the ability to reduce sidewall reflections and reduce smearing, for greater detail/transparency.

allow for lower tweeter crossover point: lower mass driver which is easier to start and stop for better detail/transparency.

-Tony
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JohnR on 16 Oct 2009, 05:35 am
For me the attraction is dynamic range. Less interaction with the room is also appealing, in principle at least. I don't own horns but keep thinking about them as a possibility.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Oct 2009, 12:46 pm
I stated my opinions on advantages in post #6.  I'll reiterate what I believe is key:

1) lower distortion, lower compression.  I think what people talk about in dynamics is proof that other other speakers have a lot more compression and distortion than people realize.  Headroom spells lower distortion at typical listening levels.
2) sensitivity, somewhat related to dynamics, but places less burden on amps leading to lower distortion, and most importantly on the harmonics that matter.
3) controlled dispersion and potential for even power response. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: sts9fan on 16 Oct 2009, 01:20 pm
I was attracted to the speakers I have now for a number of reasons.
1) sensitivity.  While not as crazy as some other horns they allow me to play with lots of amps.  I have been enjoying the Pass DIY stuff and these work great.
2) I felt that CD would make listening to the speakers while wandering around the house more enjoyable (it has)
3) The sceince and explainations of it
4) The fact that the designer stated that room issues can be minimized. 

 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 16 Oct 2009, 01:22 pm
Tony - I didn't understand your meaning on that 3rd point about tweeters. Can you clarify?

The advantages I find in horns are:

- Cool looking - The pictures you guys have posted in this thread support that contention very well.
 
- High sensitivity - As has been mentioned, they can be used with small power but generally can handle very big amplification as well. Allows for use of almost any amplifier. It seems like amplifiers are like most things in that you can apply your funds to more power quantity or more power quality. If you don't require much power quantity, that leaves more funding available for power quality.

- Placement can be easier because side and front wall proximity are not very critical due to directionality of sound transmission. This is somewhat offset by the fact that horns need to be large and nearfield listening really isn't an option.

-Durability - Most horn loudspeaker components come from the pro world where abuse and demands can be devastating. For in home use this stuff is virtually indestructible.

- Theft - Too big, no popular brand names, and funny looking to the masses. What are those things?

- Lifelike - Dynamic is our word. Other types of speakers can't begin to bring the feel of a live music event into your home like horns do.

- Coherent - I have owned most types of loudspeakers, though not all brands, over the years and have never experienced the voice clarity that my horns provide. This includes point source, electrostatic and more conventional multi-driver designs, many with sterling pedigrees. Horns rule!!

The dark underbelly of advantages would be, of course, disadvantages. Typically those mentioned are size and price and indeed, these things will keep many people from exploring the horn option. I maintain, however, that if you can do well designed horns, you can do no better.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Oct 2009, 01:40 pm
Slightly OT, but in the realm of this discussion. 
Did you guys see this?  Project Octagon (http://advanceddefinition.com/The%20Octagon.htm)

What I wouldn't do for a dedicated HT room where I could go all out.  In many ways, Paul has acheived many of the benefits of horns while not really using horns throughout (he uses big waveguides for the highs though.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 16 Oct 2009, 02:42 pm
Project Octagon appears to have some of the subject  matter and all of the spirit of this thread.

Wouldn't we all like to have a large dedicated space? I think at times about the pole barns around here. They're used for hay storage and are just a roof without walls. Some of them are I-beam construction. My daydream involves having one of those constructed with radiant heat in the slab and straw bails between the girders for walls. It could be soundproof, acoustically dead, energy-efficient and cavernous for relatively small bucks. The interior could be configured and way you like since inside walls would carry no load. Does this dream have merit? Hell, you could build bass horns right into it at one end and your soaking tub at the other. Or create a second floor at one end with a kitchen under it. What are ideal dimensions for a good sized horn room? How big does the building need to be for an empty nester couple? Include a LAB in the design and we've come full circle.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JohnR on 17 Oct 2009, 07:48 am
I didn't read the Octagon link yet. But horns would definitely be an advantage (or necessary) in the type of space you describe. I just hope it doesn't have dirt floors...!

I discovered recently that a large room is by no means an audiophile dream, necessarily. I'm not sure why that was a surprise to me - walk into a gymnasium and clap your hands together and listen.

Anyway I just wanted to say thanks to you and the others posting in this thread - I've learned a lot.

JohnR
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 17 Oct 2009, 01:25 pm
JohnR - That's an interesting consideration concerning room volume. I imagine the gymnasium sounds the way it does because of hard surfaces and, perhaps, the ratio of L to W to H.

So, on that subject, if we were to build a listening room in our LAB, what would be an optimum dimensions? Is there a shape other than rectangular that works best acoustically. I've attended many a performance in the concert hall at our local college and in the Edward Robinson Theatre, and both venues are somewhat horn shaped with the stage at the narrow end.
The concert hall has some room treatment.

For home it may not be too practical to create such a shape. And certainly, even with horns, you wouldn't want too much volume. What are the ideal dimensions for a listening space? Is the Golden Ratio really the ideal configuration, as many say?

My place sounds really good but I keep fantasizing about serious bass horns and no design I've seen would fit in our living room synergistically and within a remotely realistic price. So I dream instead about creating a better space.
That's where my possibly incongruous building blather was born. Sorry if I deviated too much. I imagine the Lab is about possibilities in audio -- even those too big to solder.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 21 Oct 2009, 05:31 pm
Please define "power response".

Hello all....  new here and a Klipsch fan (also have some EV's)  Don't have anything homebuilt and don't think I've ever heard an OB speaker.

Enough of intros and disclaimers!  :D

Regarding power response...  I was under the impression that you want even power response and this is my understanding why.

When you are sitting in the room listening, you are listening to direct as well as indirect sound.  When you are listening to indirect sound  or reflections, (if I may try to butcher an analogy) you are listening to different richochets of the original sound.  If this reflective sound has an uneven power response then certain reflections might have more high frequency content in them and some might have more lower frequency content in them and some of them might be very nicely balanced.

If on the other hand, you have a speaker with even power response, then as these reflections bounce around the room and to your ears, each reflection will contain more 'balanced' sonic information than the uneven power response speaker.

I recently had the pleasure of taking part of an interesting listening experiment.  It happened in an anechoic chamber.  We took a HF horn, designed to cross about 450/500 and listened to it in the chamber.  We listened to it on axis as well as off axis.  We then swapped it out for a larger (much larger) horn of similar design (crossing 450) and listened again to it.  What was interesting is not only was there less net sound being heard while standing BEHIND the larger horn (it was controlling the sound and projecting forward much better than the smaller one) the sonic balance of what was heard behind it was better than the smaller horn.

That was enough evidence to show me that if you really want to maximize the sound in your room, power response is indeed something that should be kept mind of.  It was a very interesting experience.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 23 Oct 2009, 01:29 pm
How about some horn links?  Hopefully these will inspire, give ideas, start the creative juices flowing.

http://www.realhorns.de/
http://www.cessaro-horn-acoustics.com
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=32
http://www.audioanthology.com/building.htm
http://www.moviemice.com/we/horns/index.php
http://myjubs.com/
http://www.michaelchrist.com/
http://www.musique-concrete.com/MC/ENHome.html
http://www.kbrooksaudio.net/custom.html
http://www.hornfabrik-eder.de/
http://www.bd-design.nl/
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 23 Oct 2009, 01:36 pm
Romy has a thread on his forum about listing horn makers for those who don't wish to build their own.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=3226#3226

Probably all of the ones I listed above are on this thread as well, some probably came from this thread.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 23 Oct 2009, 02:01 pm
Slightly OT, but in the realm of this discussion. 
Did you guys see this?  Project Octagon (http://advanceddefinition.com/The%20Octagon.htm)

What I wouldn't do for a dedicated HT room where I could go all out.  In many ways, Paul has acheived many of the benefits of horns while not really using horns throughout (he uses big waveguides for the highs though.

Josh,

I really have to give this guy the tops for engaging in such a project. Still, there are cheaper ways (in terms of time really) to achieve what he did, i.e. just buy a bunch of Geddes speakers and add subs! His drivers are cheaper but his concepts are really in tune with some of the gurus of waveguide and horn theory.

Really a great project and monumental effort! Truly an inspiration for those of us thinking on the same terms.

Anand.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 23 Oct 2009, 02:34 pm
Holy shmoly, Josh. Shouldn't you warn aboust NSFW when posting links to horn pr0n? Those concrete Le'Cleach horns, which I've seen any numbers of times now, still blow me away every time I look at them.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 23 Oct 2009, 03:20 pm
So, on that subject, if we were to build a listening room in our LAB, what would be an optimum dimensions? Is there a shape other than rectangular that works best acoustically.


This is better question for the acoustics circle. Here is one answer, which I have seen echo'd a bit by others
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72432.msg679120#msg679120

-Tony
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 23 Oct 2009, 04:12 pm
Holy shmoly, Josh. Shouldn't you warn aboust NSFW when posting links to horn pr0n? Those concrete Le'Cleach horns, which I've seen any numbers of times now, still blow me away every time I look at them.

Regards,
John

Horn pr0n, lol.  I love it.  "Do I make you horny?"  (in my best austin powers voice)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TRADERXFAN on 23 Oct 2009, 04:26 pm
Holy shmoly, Josh. Shouldn't you warn aboust NSFW when posting links to horn pr0n? Those concrete Le'Cleach horns, which I've seen any numbers of times now, still blow me away every time I look at them.

Regards,
John

Horn pr0n, lol.  I love it.  "Do I make you horny?"  (in my best austin powers voice)

need the "baby" at the end for Austin powers, don't you?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 24 Oct 2009, 12:06 am
My favorite (visually) horn system.

(http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/electronluv_4.jpg)

Those scorpion midbass horns are badass.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 24 Oct 2009, 01:04 pm
More love for Elctronluv. Cogent represented as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23111)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23112)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23113)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 25 Oct 2009, 01:39 pm
Josh's stuff is about the only hi-fi gear that actually makes me want to spend inordinate amounts of money on hi-fi.  I think most of the gear in this price range and beyond in general is a joke.  At least Josh's works double as artistic scultures.  Art you may or may not enjoy, but none-the-less are a serious conversation piece.



Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: turkey on 28 Oct 2009, 01:31 pm
I stated my opinions on advantages in post #6.  I'll reiterate what I believe is key:

1) lower distortion, lower compression.  I think what people talk about in dynamics is proof that other other speakers have a lot more compression and distortion than people realize.  Headroom spells lower distortion at typical listening levels.
2) sensitivity, somewhat related to dynamics, but places less burden on amps leading to lower distortion, and most importantly on the harmonics that matter.
3) controlled dispersion and potential for even power response.

I might change the order of these, but I agree with what you're saying.

(I'd put them, in order of importance, as 3, 1, 2.)

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: turkey on 28 Oct 2009, 01:46 pm
Project Octagon appears to have some of the subject  matter and all of the spirit of this thread.

Wouldn't we all like to have a large dedicated space? I think at times about the pole barns around here. They're used for hay storage and are just a roof without walls. Some of them are I-beam construction. My daydream involves having one of those constructed with radiant heat in the slab and straw bails between the girders for walls. It could be soundproof, acoustically dead, energy-efficient and cavernous for relatively small bucks. The interior could be configured and way you like since inside walls would carry no load. Does this dream have merit? Hell, you could build bass horns right into it at one end and your soaking tub at the other. Or create a second floor at one end with a kitchen under it. What are ideal dimensions for a good sized horn room? How big does the building need to be for an empty nester couple? Include a LAB in the design and we've come full circle.

I've thought of a similar type of building, but with the inside done in "Soft Wall." It's a substitute for drywall that I've seen used in finished basements. It's attractive, absorbs sound well, and seems to be fairly inexpensive.

http://www.softwallfinishingsystems.com

What I would like is a small outbuilding (mancave?) that's part listening room/HT, and part workshop and equipment storeroom. Kind of a cozy little building for my hobby.


Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 29 Oct 2009, 12:55 pm
Turkey - This is an excellent discovery that could serve to customize listening rooms for audiophiles everywhere whose families think they belong in a padded room.

Seriously, I was very interested in the idea as something I can incorporate in my fantasy listening room. Yesterday I spoke with a guy who builds metal buildings. He wasn't terribly precise about costs but it seems that the larger your building, the less it will cost you per square foot. For 2500 sq. ft. and up, you can get the pad, the shell, insulation, doors and windows for around $20 per sq. ft. That's $50,000 before you customize your interior and add plumbing and electrical. Cost of radiant floor heat preinstalled in the pad would be minimal. I picture an urban loft sort of space out in the country for my horns. Seems like incorporating basshorns in the design might be doable as well. Do any of the rest of you fantasize like this?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: turkey on 29 Oct 2009, 02:57 pm
Seems like incorporating basshorns in the design might be doable as well. Do any of the rest of you fantasize like this?

I'm not sure. In the past I knew someone who had heard large concrete built-in bass horns in the UK and simply raved about them. He said it was the only way to get good bass in the home. I really liked the idea. I even started building concrete folded bass horns from an article in an old issue of Wireless World. (I was doing something wrong evidently, and the concrete kept cracking on me.)

I toyed with the idea of getting a pair of Community Light & Sound Leviathan bass horns too. (Shown here without the optional flare extensions.) A local music store had a pair that they were willing to sell very cheaply. (None of the bands wanted them because they were impossible to haul around. They were done in bright yellow too, which could have been another reason they weren't selling.)

(http://www.communitypro.com/images/articles/40years/early-leviathan.gif)

More recently, I have setup a few inexpensive subs like Earl Geddes recommends, and the results are excellent. I'm extremely happy with how my system does bass these days.

I'd lean towards wanting to spend the money on a larger listening room, rather than large horns attached to a smaller room. I'm just not sure at this point that bass horns are needed (or even suitable) for the home listening environment.


Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 29 Oct 2009, 04:54 pm
I'm just not sure at this point that bass horns are needed (or even suitable) for the home listening environment.

Might give something like these a listen  :D

They (the bass bins) were originally designed for home use, to replace the Klipschorn as the Klipschorn II.  PWK passed away before they could finalize a design for home use and the company shelved them, incorporating them instead, into their cinema lineup.  Sound pretty incredible. 

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23290)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 29 Oct 2009, 05:13 pm
I'm just not sure at this point that bass horns are needed (or even suitable) for the home listening environment.

I am in that camp as well.  I think bass horns are completely impractical for home use and even sub-optimal (pun).  I think the Geddes' approach to bass makes way more sense.  Its is much more likely to be successful (you probably have to accept where the bass horn goes even if it is very non-ideal) and much more likely to give an even response since it immenates from multiple locations rather than one or two.

However, midbass horns still have their appeal.  The above picture is still a midbass horn IMHO, although blurring the distinction.  If I am correct and that is the Jubilee, it looks like its lower corner is 50hz and upper around 500hz.  That is still midbass. 

Romy the cat, who I don't often quote, raises the point about response dropping quickly below the Fc of a horn, so unless it is a HUGE horn, you give up a lot of lower bass with horns without subs.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 29 Oct 2009, 06:27 pm
If I am correct and that is the Jubilee, it looks like its lower corner is 50hz and upper around 500hz.  That is still midbass. 

It is the Jubilee.  I do not know it's technical output paramaters however, I DO know that for those people using an active crossover, we have slipped in a PEQ at 32hz to add some bark to it.  When it was discussed, Roy (co-designer) said we could add this PEQ because even though this is a horn loaded bass....  it is STILL a driver inside a sealed chamber.

It is something to be heard.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 29 Oct 2009, 10:01 pm
Some interesting comments from a Jubilee owner (not my comments)
Notice his comment on bass response

Edit:  forgot the initial link: 
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/102414.aspx?PageIndex=1

I began to read the Jubilee threads on this forum in October 2007.  Like Bill W., I lacked access to Jubilees for audition.  However my past and present understanding of acoustics convinced me of the clear advantages of the Jubilees over my then Khorn clones. Trusting the Klipsch forum wasn?t really difficult since the Jub entries literally went hundreds of pages.  When I think about it, I cannot recall any other product about which can make that claim. From order to delivery took less than two weeks?fairly spectacular performance out of Klipsch, especially considering it was the week before Christmas.

Setup: When the Jubes arrived, I had a couple of days getting them set up and equalized/ balanced with the two XTi?s I also bought to drive them using active crossover capabilities in the Crown amps just like the commercial theater installations do.  Once I did get them setup and got a chance to crank them up a bit, these units ?came alive?.  Turning them up doesn?t result in facial grimaces or other teeth-clenching exercises like it did for the Khorns ? these units just keep sounding better and better until you notice that it?s actually louder than real life, in which case you back the gain down until they sound real when you close your eyes. At this point, conversation is good if you know ASL (American Sign Language).

Note that I am listening with anechoic XTi settings from Roy?s work in their chamber. I believe this results in a measure of realism that may not be uniformly heard in all Jubilee installations?caveat emptor to DIY electronics folks when using Jubes. My present room is tailor-made for corner horns ? about 16 feet wide, 9 feet high, 40 feet long, and with two good symmetric corners. 

Performance: I?ll dispense with any discussions about lf and hf drivers, horn expansion profiles, driver integration discussion, or crossover theory since I don?t think those things are important to the casual listener in any case.  Jubilee performance is something that is very difficult for me to characterize since they?ve been a very different experience than any other speakers I?ve heard. 

First, I?ve given up comparing these units to other speakers?I think of the Jubes as the closest thing to reality that I?ve ever heard.  Pianos, female voices, string orchestras, horns, percussion, etc. sound like you remember they should.  I don?t set any other speakers on that standard including Khorns or any other high-end speakers.  Every day that I get to listen to these speakers is a good one?in fact, it?s usually the highlight of my day. 

Second, I?ve since become an avid collector of high quality CDs, and many of those have been recommended on this forum. I?m delighted with each small journey that the USPS brings to my doorstep pretty much daily via Amazon Marketplace.  I, too, have been busy rediscovering hundreds of hours worth of music: I?ve got a few hundred more to go with all the older vinyl I collected up to around 1984, but never got rid of.  Some of that old vinyl doesn?t sound bad now, but no vinyl sounds like the best CDs that I now own. I guess that I should try out a much better TT, but right now that exercise just doesn?t appeal to me.

Third, the bottom end is solid, regardless of what anyone might think or say.  I?d be hard pressed to want a subwoofer for any music that is playing.  I have a DEQ2496 equalizer that I use, exclusively to equalize the low-end cutoff another 4-5-or more Hz.  My organ records shake the room like I remember the real thing?maybe because the room they're in is large enough to support lf down to the low-20 Hz range in one dimension.  Anyone that says that they need a subwoofer with these probably has some tendency toward bass addiction? a common malady in this market?or they are watching war and action movies with lots of percussive audio effects.  My observation: you better get out your wallet to get subwoofers that can successfully and usefully extend the extreme lf performance of these babies-because they do very well as-is, assuming good corner loading.

Fourth, these units fill the entire room with a balanced sound image, from front to back and side-to-side.  Some areas of the room reinforce lf performance better, such that you can sit at my breakfast table at the back of the room and really rock along with Brian Bromberg?s ?Wood? bass with a feeling of realism.  Even in adjoining rooms, the sound still feels like a live performance is playing in the next room.  This is something which is much different than even the Khorns.

Listener Comments: Comments from folks that have come by include the usual: dead silence?no expression at all, ??wow?those don?t sound?like mine?, ?my wife will never let those things into the house?, ??how much??, ?you should have seen that fish I caught last month?, ?have you ever thought about tubes?, etc. 

Admittedly, the number of people that have auditioned them has been a couple of dozen vs. probably many hundreds in Bill W.?s restaurant, but the reaction is fairly uniform in my experience ? mainly dead silence.  Most of the most critical listeners seem to be women, not guys.  They seem to open up a bit more with ?those are the best speakers that I?ve ever heard? where did those come from??, ?I didn?t know that speakers could sound like that?but they aren?t very good looking are they??. Younger folks (in their 20s) usually don?t appear to notice anything until their video games start up?then they have a tendency to stick around for a long time playing on the large flat screen TV between the Jubes.  I think they just ?zone out?, sort of like a Bradbury story.

At the risk of alienating some auditioners that bring their own music for audition, a great deal of what I hear really doesn?t do these units justice.  The one time that I was obliged to put some of my demo CDs on, the performance change was nothing short of dramatic- especially for low bass recordings.  I now subscribe to the theory that you should listen to new music when you audition new speakers, even if it is mixed in with music that you are already familiar with. 

I hope some of this might be useful to those that might be thinking about Jubes.

Respectfully,

Chris A.

(This is a second thread on this general topic--see http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/99200.aspx?PageIndex=1 for the first thread in this series).

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 29 Oct 2009, 11:38 pm
Chris,

I haven't read through all those threads about the Jubes yet.  Can you answer some simple questions for me? 

Can you still order/buy these?  I think I read you ordered these from Roy Delgado.  How much do they cost, if you don't mind my asking?   Can you order just the bins?

Pretty darn cool.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 30 Oct 2009, 12:15 am
One other question, what are the dimensions of the bins?   I looked up the Jub 535 cinema speaker and the dimensions quotes have to be wrong.  8 feet tall, 5 feet deep?! really? 

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Lyndon on 30 Oct 2009, 12:45 am
There you go, Josh!
Looks like you're in the market for a new house.  After all the work you've put in the past 2 years.
 :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

Did you ever read that thread in Decware with those monster speakers that were a copy from some old movie
theater?  I think they were built in the garage, and stayed in the garage.
Lyndon
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 30 Oct 2009, 12:49 am
Chris,

I haven't read through all those threads about the Jubes yet.  Can you answer some simple questions for me? 

Can you still order/buy these?  I think I read you ordered these from Roy Delgado.  How much do they cost, if you don't mind my asking?   Can you order just the bins?

Pretty darn cool.

Heh...  I'm not Chris but that's ok...  I've met him and trust me...you could call me a LOT worse!  :green:

Yes, you can still order these.  In fact, the ones pictured are the most recent pair that has been purchased.  Most of the earlier adopters received them in black.  There is an upcharge for the fancy veneer in front BUT, I do not know how much the upcharge might be.

Yes, all orders would need to be orchestrated through Roy.  These are NOT bought in a standard format so he's paved the road with one of their distributors so they can be ordered/delivered with few surprises (a few have been managed).

When I bought mine (in the industrial black) they were "about $7,000" and they had NO crossover with them.  You can build a passive that has been designed or you can go active which many have done.  I'm using an Electrovoice Ex38.  new are about $1,300 (?) and you can find them on ebay for maybe $500/600.

Though you can buy just the bass bins I'd contend that once someone actually hears the whole package (with the K402 horn on top) it's pretty hard to beat.  Regardless...  I have zero idea what the price of the bass bins alone might be.  I'd speculate about $5,000.  Oh...I might add...when I ordered mine, the price included all shipping and all taxes (none).


Richard  :thumb:
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 30 Oct 2009, 01:00 am
One other question, what are the dimensions of the bins?   I looked up the Jub 535 cinema speaker and the dimensions quotes have to be wrong.  8 feet tall, 5 feet deep?! really?

I see their height listed as 77.25 inches or 6 1/2'  They are NOT 8' 5"...  then again realize we're also removing the very top horn.  Actually We are doing nothing...that's part of the special order.  We are dropping the tweeter horn (K510 horn) and moving the tweeter driver down to the midrange horn (K402) and then we are dropping the midrange driver.  by dropping, I mean, Klipsch is NOT including them. 

Just measured....  they are roughly 66" tall, 42" wide and (didn't measure this one but it's from an old memory) about 24" deep

This is to the top of the K402 horn, not the top of the bass bin.  If you want that, lemme know and I'll go back downstairs (pant pant pant) and get it.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 30 Oct 2009, 01:08 am
Thanks.  I wouldn't mind knowing how tall the bin is when you get a round tuit. 

At this point, I am not seriously considering the Jubes or anything, but just wondering if they'd fit in my corners. 

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 30 Oct 2009, 01:23 am
Thanks.  I wouldn't mind knowing how tall the bin is when you get a round tuit. 

At this point, I am not seriously considering the Jubes or anything, but just wondering if they'd fit in my corners.

The bass bins are 40" tall

If someone is curious as to them fitting in their room then I'd suggest this, simply go to your corners, measure out 36" from each side of the corner along the wall.  Do you have any obstructions within that 36"?  (window, doorway...)

Truth be told, I think it's actually 31" but by using 36 I know you're covered.  Also, because these have an enclosed back, they don't HAVE to be in a corner like a Klipschorn does.  As I understand (from Roy), as long as they are within about 10" from the walls/corner, you will keep their low end extension

Edit:  added picture of mine in a 16' wide room with a 50" tv in between(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23299)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Coytee on 30 Oct 2009, 01:42 am
If I am correct and that is the Jubilee, it looks like its lower corner is 50hz and upper around 500hz.

Not arguing, just trying to make sure the story is fairly accurate.  The Jubilee bass bin will go down to (??)  I don't really know the bottom.  Evidently, it will go up to about 1K hz fairly easily.  We are crossing over electronically about 450 hz.  I've moved that point up the scale (with my active) and was very impressed with how high the bass bin was able to play.

One of the design paramaters of this project was to keep the Khorn footprint, lower the distortion, increase output and (I think their main goal) raise the crossover point from the Khorn.

Evidently, they met all goals.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 30 Oct 2009, 12:37 pm
I was thinking more about this.  I think the reason why the 50hz lower corner isn't as sharp (meaning you might get more bass than this would otherwise imply) is due to the corner loading.  I think the 1/2 pi loading lifts the bottom end substantially. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 11 Nov 2009, 10:32 pm
Want to buy a pair of fully loaded horn speakers? 
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1262991887&/Audiovoice-Acoustics-Eikon-4wa

(I am not associated with the seller in any way). 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 18 Nov 2009, 07:56 pm
Another horn maker!

http://www.elevenhorns.com/

Group buy anyone?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 18 Nov 2009, 08:44 pm
Another horn maker!

http://www.elevenhorns.com/

Group buy anyone?

OK, I'll bite. 2-600 LC 2" throat
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 18 Nov 2009, 09:15 pm
I was joking about the GB, I should have used a smiley.  They do look quite good, but they have intro pricing, so there isn't a reason for a GB.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 18 Nov 2009, 09:16 pm
Jeffrey has an add up at Audiogon: 11Horns (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1263673426&/Eleven-Horns-Le-Cleac'h-Flare-). I think that price is competitive with what I've seen elsewhere for wood horns. And, I don't have any doubts that they're well done.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 18 Nov 2009, 09:32 pm
Yeah, saw the ad.  Good stuff.  The 140LC Compression horn is tempting...oh so tempting. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: konut on 18 Nov 2009, 10:08 pm
I was joking about the GB, I should have used a smiley.  They do look quite good, but they have intro pricing, so there isn't a reason for a GB.

I wasn't joking. Maybe a group of 10 people buying 2 each would be worth it to them to get a jump start on their business. A thread on AC would provide a source of PR,exposure and feedback that would easily be worth a further 5%. Hey, it don't cost nuthin to ask, and since it was your idea......... :green: 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 24 Nov 2009, 10:33 pm
Hi everyone

and thanks for this discussion. it fits right into what i am looking for.


John/nullspace:
 i have fertin 20ex playing in ob right now crossed over at 250hz to a bass unit and do enjoy the presentation.
i know you had a similar setup and decided to try the AH horn.
i am wondering how you would describe the difference in presentation as i would think they are VERY different from OB to Horn !!.
i also talked briefly to Bill Woods and he says that a distance of 7' from Horn driver is not a problem.
you mention that you are not totally happy with how they integrate ???


macrojack:
i really like your setup and am very tempted to try something similar.
i already contacted Bill and he is indeed very helpful.
may i ask where you got your B&C drivers?
what is your listening distance to the horn?
what other speakers did you own before the present setup?
what amps do you use?
how does the performance compare wit and without the tweet on on the DCX?

malcolm

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 25 Nov 2009, 02:37 pm
Hi Malcolm,

They're very different, as you might imagine. The Fertin drivers remain very, very nice and completely pleasant. The horns & large-diameter mids are just so dynamic and effortless.

I think you misread my comments; I'm perfectly happy with how the AH!1000 horns integrate in my setup. However, I do think that the AH!300 horns would be too large for my room. I've heard them (meaning the AH!300) in both a hotel room and a properly-large loft and they were far better in the later.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 25 Nov 2009, 03:12 pm
Here's a source for the B&C DCX 50. 
http://www.magnumcaseworks.com/Loudspeakers.html

I sit back about 12 - 13 feet from the mouth of the horn. It is far enough to work but I have a feeling more might be better.

I sent you a list in the P.M. In the last 15 years, I have had Zu Definition Pro, Zu Druid, Golmund Dialogue, NHT 2.9, Avalon Eclipse and Aerial 10T.

I am actively bi-amped with Jeff Rowland 102 on horns and Perreaux PMF 1850 on woofers.

I have never used the tweeters so I can't answer that one.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 28 Nov 2009, 07:40 pm
While I am certain the Imperia is a sound to behold, I get the impression that the target price is equal to the price of a modest home in the midwest. 

The midbass horn particularly intrigues me.  Actually I had the thought to make something similar after I first saw the 300hz horn.  In fact I bought a set of router bits intended to ease such construction. 

See here:
(http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics3/multisided.jpg)
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_door.html#multisided_glue_anchor
How to guide here:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics2/plans-12-sided-planter.pdf
Need to work out a little geometry, but nothing difficult.

I have in mind to try this cone driver given JLH's experience with it.
(http://www.usspeaker.com/images/faitalpro-M5N12-80-size275.gif)
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%20m5n12-80-1.htm
This one could work too:
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8PE21-1.htm

Here is a good discussion on phase plugs, if it is needed.
http://www.centauriaudio.com.au/diy/plugs.html
(http://www.centauriaudio.com.au/diy/6PlugSpkr.jpg)

here is another idea for building a horn : sorry text is in german

http://www.cornu.de/audio/fronthorn_sb.html (http://www.cornu.de/audio/fronthorn_sb.html)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 28 Nov 2009, 11:25 pm
Yeah, that is a good link, thanks.  Similar concept.

No problem with the German.  Ich haben ein bischen verstehen.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 1 Dec 2009, 01:14 am
thanks for the help John and macrojack

i did a lot of reading on the forums this weekend trying to decide what horn / Cd would suit my needs (400-10khz) and i have to say i can barely see the forest anymore.
it seems like there is almost a little war going on between conical and lecleach hornlovers , not including the waveguide croud.

i sure like the idea of the AH 300 horn with the B&C DCM driver , only thing i am struggeling with is the pricetag of the Horn.

the horns from Jeffrey W Jackson ( elevenhorns ) look very well made and are 1k$ less !!! but a different concept (Lecleach flare).
Jeffrey has a very good reputation also .

i might be able to stretch my budget to the AH horn , but without knowing if its worth it , argh , decisions descisons.

if you have an opinion , give it to me.

thanks

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 1 Dec 2009, 03:54 pm
Malcolm, here's my opinion: You should buy what you like. For that kind of coin, you should make a point to try and hear an example of one or both -- I don't think they sound particularly similar.

If you email Bill Woods, he might be able to arrange for you to meet up with one of his customers local to you. I don't guess Jeffrey has many clients at this point, but at least try and find some tractix examples to hear, which will bear some resemblance to the Le Cleac'h horns.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 1 Dec 2009, 04:03 pm
Malcolm,

I don't consider myself an authority on horn loudspeakers having no opportunity to experience the many options out there. I found, as you did, that there is a lot of disagreement about who has the best approach. Since a lot of people have something to say on the subject, I looked for a way to differentiate among the many opinions. This led me to choosing on the basis of who chose which one and why. There were three people in particular who influenced my choice because all three had experience with a wide range of options and a firm commitment to horns.

These were Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill fame, Chris Brady of Teres Turntables, and the guys who make the Cogent Field Coil Drivers.

Jonathan chose to use the Acoustic Horn AH300 in his AC1 ($65,000) speakers. Cogent chose the same horn with a modified sizing for their $15,000 field coil. Chris Brady was using Edgarhorns the one and only time I visited his listening space and what he had going with his DIY electronics, New Direct Drive turntable, and ZYX cartridge was fantastic. At the next RMAF he heard the Cogent System and negotiated immediately to take it home from the show.

All of this told me that if the guys who have the money and experience and connections choose to spend their funds and credibility on Acoustic Horns, I might be wise to follow their lead. After all, they weren't promoting anything to me as I can't hope to buy their products.

This brings us to the price of the AH300/B&C DCM 50 combo. I would imagine that U.S. buyers could expect to spend about $3300 shipped for a stereo pair. The horns are $2216/ pair and the drivers are about $900/pair.

This amount is not chicken feed but relative to the prices of state of the art, extended range horn systems, it should be seen as a bargain. As far as I know, there is no better mid range reproducer available today.

Picture the QUAD 57 with lifelike dynamics and extreme power handling. There is no horn honk and the clarity exceeds anything else I know about.

I'm sure these claims will be challenged but the comments are unlikely to come from someone who knows these speakers well. I'm only speaking out in the hopes of getting Malcolm over his hesitation. He contacted me privately about Acoustic Horn and he had contacted Bill Woods before that.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 2 Dec 2009, 01:29 am
Hi macrojack

you might have  just pushed me over the edge to AH .
and you are not the only one who speaks very very highly about Bill and his horns.
i contacted a few people over at the asylum, and they all say that if you want the best and can afford it , go with Bill's horn's.
so i will dig deep into my wallet and hopefully be able to make myself a nice big horny x-mas present.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Dec 2009, 03:26 pm
Another idea for turning horns using a lathe.  This guy came up with a very clever jig for following a pattern.  It looks like a duplicator jig, but used slightly differently.

Lathe Duplicator Jig (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/126586-oblate-spheroid-waveguide-consolidated-construction-thread-22.html#post1617563)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Dec 2009, 03:41 pm
If you can make one good waveguide, you can use it to cast multiples.

http://www.youtube.com/v/MJ9lgZ3V90o

Above from JLH's post
here (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/126586-oblate-spheroid-waveguide-consolidated-construction-thread-22.html#post1617032)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 23 Dec 2009, 01:07 pm
They are a pair of the Consonance Cyber 845's and I don't they have any feedback. I have not traced the circuit yet, so I can't be 100% certain.

I do plan on trying a Zobel to try and smooth out the impedance bumps and make life a little easier for the amp. Assuming I can find time this weekend I plan on measuring the amps, including the output impedance. I need to calculate the values for a Zobel as well along with what seems to be a ton of other things. ;)

II picked up an 845 based SET a couple of weeks ago and I'm starting to see the attraction.

Mike,

Could you tell us a bit more about your 845 SET? The reson I ask is because, since it's SET I assume no-feedback and therefore a 2-3ohm output impedence, based on the Abbey's impedence plot you posted the freq. response should differ from the official plot Dr. Geddes has posted at his website. And I would like to hear your impressions on how the speakers sound with the SET.

I'm mightily curious about the Abbeys, but were I to snag a pair I'd almost certainly try putting a LCR across the speaker to smooth about the impedence bump at 1.5khz.

Hi Mike,

Did you ever get around to trying any impedence compensation with the Abbeys? I've been on a kick lately, thinking about how relatively important smooth impedence and benign phase angles are for SETs, and I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks.

Regards,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 3 Mar 2010, 06:18 pm
An unbiased review on one horn system of a well known personality within the audiophile community.  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0310/audiolics_anonymous_chapter_125.htm

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: doug s. on 3 Mar 2010, 06:55 pm
An unbiased review on one horn system of a well known personality within the audiophile community.  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0310/audiolics_anonymous_chapter_125.htm
he has an interesting website...   8)

http://www.romythecat.com/

doug s.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 3 Mar 2010, 09:02 pm
Did you ever get around to trying any impedence compensation with the Abbeys? I've been on a kick lately, thinking about how relatively important smooth impedence and benign phase angles are for SETs, and I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks.

John, just now saw this.  :oops:

No, I have not had a chance. I undertook some contract work and have had little time for tinkering with my own toys.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 3 Mar 2010, 09:06 pm
An unbiased review on one horn system of a well known personality within the audiophile community.  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0310/audiolics_anonymous_chapter_125.htm

I saw that the other day and immediately recognized Romy's system. I always wondered if what he writes about was as good as he makes it sound, it appears so. I have spent a fair amount of time reading about his "Melquiades" amplifier. I might have to collect up the parts to build a couple though that is only part of the picture.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 4 Mar 2010, 01:48 pm
I saw that the other day and immediately recognized Romy's system. I always wondered if what he writes about was as good as he makes it sound, it appears so. I have spent a fair amount of time reading about his "Melquiades" amplifier. I might have to collect up the parts to build a couple though that is only part of the picture.

Ditto.  I can't say I enjoy reading Romy's diatribe, but I actually agree with many of his proclivities. 

I ordered a pair of 140hz LC horns from elevenhorns for the 5" Faital shown above (4" throat).  I am going to experiment with an all horn/mostly horn system.  I am planning to use the custom made OS/LC waveguides above these.

JLH shared with me some measurements he took of a similar pairing.  He had, iirc, a 30" OS waveguide with mouth rollback paired with a 34" Tractrix horn (135hz Fc).   The directivity measurements he took look to be a good match at around 600-800hz. 

He crossed at 800hz and 135hz to some tapped horns.  So my road is partially paved already.   I know there is a chance that it'll work out.  He even tried the Faital mid, which is where I got the idea.

I am not trying to copy anyone else's work, but I have always wanted to try horns and his setup, as described sounds like it leans the way I would. 

My recently completed bass bins will be put into service below the midbass horns (really midrange bandwidth, but I am going with convention on naming it).

My Festool saw arrived and I have the birch ply, so I am planning to make the small tapped horns (for distributed bass) soon.   I am also finishing up my abbey clones, so I will have a lot of mixing and matching to try out.


Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 4 Mar 2010, 02:47 pm
Love to hear that when your done Josh - 'course we are never quite done...

I have been seriously pondering converting my Abbeys to an active setup and using a low power SET on the waveguides. Assuming I can dial in the crossover correctly but it should be cool if I can get there. I hate the complexity of active systems but they just do so many things right.

No sure if I'll get to a full horn setup but who knows. It's taken me years to mentally adjust to where I can even consider low power amps and horns. :)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Mar 2010, 02:59 pm
I hate the complexity of active systems but they just do so many things right.

I agree..I fought it for awhile but have come to realize it's sooo nice to tweak if needed.  I currently use a combo of active and passive.  It works VERY well in my setup. 

My active http://www.ashly.com/protea324cl-cl-d.html
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 4 Mar 2010, 03:26 pm
The Ashly processor looks nice, how do you like it? I still have one of my hot rodded DCX's from my previous active setup so I'd start with that.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 4 Mar 2010, 03:33 pm
Am I the only one who uses a dbx Drive Rack PA? I like it just fine but I have to wonder why I never see it mentioned on AC.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Mar 2010, 03:44 pm
The Ashly processor looks nice, how do you like it? I still have one of my hot rodded DCX's from my previous active setup so I'd start with that.

I had a DCX...I REALLY like the Ashly.  Very intuitive and made in the USA.   :D
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Mar 2010, 03:46 pm
Am I the only one who uses a dbx Drive Rack PA? I like it just fine but I have to wonder why I never see it mentioned on AC.

MJ-

No sir!  Some of the better active systems I've heard use the dbx.  I almost bought one before I got mine but thought I'd try something different (as I thought everyone used the dbx).   :)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: TomS on 4 Mar 2010, 04:20 pm
Since we're already a bit off track, for the guys using alternatives to the DCX, I'd love to hear more about why you chose them (Ashly, DBX, QSC?) since they obviously cost quite a bit more. 

I'm considering getting another DCX as we speak, since I sold my hotrod version a while back.  All I'm using it for is to take 2 balanced inputs from my preamp, sum the L/R to a single output bus, then XO and EQ 3-4 subs individually via the balanced outs.  I don't use any high pass to drive mains (Geddes Abbeys) at all, just subs.  I've looked at some of the DSP engines such as MiniDSP that allow you to configure filters on PC, download via USB, and disconnect it (no front panel control needed).  In theory very nice, but they still aren't even close to the functionality of the DCX which is only $300.  My beef with the Behringer is the PC UI and interface leaves a lot to be desired so I'm just wondering if the others improve on this much? 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Mar 2010, 08:25 pm
Back on track...

I've been really interested in horns lately.  My other thread was ditched so I'll join this one if I may?   :)

What's the recommended horn system.  Say build from scratch including the woofer cabinet?  I saw the AH-300 and am intrigued by it. 

Anyone?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 4 Mar 2010, 08:57 pm
Well, I won't lie to you.  Designing a horn system is tricky business.  So many seem so ill-conceived.  The best approach is to consult a pro, build a kit, buy a finished product or careful study and clone a commercial product.

There are Geddes kits available, econowave projects on the web, Brandon's budding project (goes by augerpro), or buy the AH300 and have Bill help you design a speaker (comes with the purchase of the horn, according to him). 

You can plow unknown territory like I am attempting to do, but there are many pitfall to avoid and you have to not get frustrated easily.  Measurement equipment, know-how and willingness to do lots of reading/research are a must.

If I didn't find a lot of joy in the process, I'd buy one of Geddes's kits and be done.  But that is my leaning.

josh
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 4 Mar 2010, 09:25 pm
What's the recommended horn system.

It depends, which horn systems have you heard? What did you like about them? What did you not like about them?

Maybe it's the personalities involved, but some of the most heated throw-downs I've witnessed have been about horns and which ones are best. So, I don't think there is any consensus on which is numero uno -- it's more a matter of finding out which one is best for you.

If you're able, I think RMAF is a decent opportunity to hear some of the current commercial examples. CAR is usually there with their tractrix horns as is BD-Designs, Duke @ Audiokinesis (wide-anle waveguides) has said he'll be there this year, haven't yet heard if OMA will be attending with one of their conical horn loudspeakers. To hear some old-school Altecs or JBL you'll have to find a friend who will invite you over, though...

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 4 Mar 2010, 09:27 pm
I haven't any experience with audiophile horns outside of the pair I own. Since you mentioned the AH300, I'll tell you whatever I can about them.
Since I'm not an expert at all, the best I can do is tell you why I chose them. It was because I saw the Cogent system used them, because Oswald's Mill used them and because Chris Brady has them, although didn't select the horns separately but just bought the Cogent System intact.
I learned that the common denominator in all of these successes was Bill Woods and his tiny Acoustic Horn Company. I learned that Bill holds a degree in industrial design and that he started his own speaker manufacturing company in Canada in the 1970s. His successes in designing his own speakers attracted the attention of Yorkville Sound and he was enlisted to do some design work for them. Over time his affiliation grew and he became an employee, eventually becoming chief design engineer at Yorkville. He held that post for 18 years until the corporatization of the company and his age conspired to send him into a more independent enterprise. Today, in addition to designing, building and selling his own horns, he consults with driver manufacturers around the world. This resume, combined with his very pleasant personality, emboldened me to take a chance and order a pair of horns. No regrets.

I've had my horns for about 15  months now and I still feel like they will be my last pair of speakers. If you happen to have some big, efficient woofer cabinets on hand, as I did (JBL L-200), it is a simple matter to integrate them using an outboard crossover. Your Ashley looks like it would be perfect. The only thing my dbx appears to have over it is the RTA feature.
Call Bill and talk about it. He won't exert any salesmanship at all and you will be amazed by his encyclopedic knowledge. (705) 696-2092
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Mar 2010, 12:46 am
I haven't any experience with audiophile horns outside of the pair I own. Since you mentioned the AH300, I'll tell you whatever I can about them.
Since I'm not an expert at all, the best I can do is tell you why I chose them. It was because I saw the Cogent system used them, because Oswald's Mill used them and because Chris Brady has them, although didn't select the horns separately but just bought the Cogent System intact.
I learned that the common denominator in all of these successes was Bill Woods and his tiny Acoustic Horn Company. I learned that Bill holds a degree in industrial design and that he started his own speaker manufacturing company in Canada in the 1970s. His successes in designing his own speakers attracted the attention of Yorkville Sound and he was enlisted to do some design work for them. Over time his affiliation grew and he became an employee, eventually becoming chief design engineer at Yorkville. He held that post for 18 years until the corporatization of the company and his age conspired to send him into a more independent enterprise. Today, in addition to designing, building and selling his own horns, he consults with driver manufacturers around the world. This resume, combined with his very pleasant personality, emboldened me to take a chance and order a pair of horns. No regrets.

I've had my horns for about 15  months now and I still feel like they will be my last pair of speakers. If you happen to have some big, efficient woofer cabinets on hand, as I did (JBL L-200), it is a simple matter to integrate them using an outboard crossover. Your Ashley looks like it would be perfect. The only thing my dbx appears to have over it is the RTA feature.
Call Bill and talk about it. He won't exert any salesmanship at all and you will be amazed by his encyclopedic knowledge. (705) 696-2092

Thank you.  I've just started an email trade.  I'll keep you updated. 

Yes, I plan on going to RMAF this year to listen to a bunch of stuff. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DaveC113 on 5 Mar 2010, 12:58 am
I agree w/macrojack.

The Oswald Mills speakers at RMAF were amazing and one of the few horns that I like. In this system, a horn is only used for the midrange, there was a ribbon tweeter in a waveguide and a large conventional woofer cabinet. If I had the $$$ and a room worthy of them, I'd consider building a DIY fully active system using that midrange horn. Unless you have an extra $50k, then just buy the Oswald Mills speakers... 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Mar 2010, 01:17 am
I agree w/macrojack.

The Oswald Mills speakers at RMAF were amazing and one of the few horns that I like. In this system, a horn is only used for the midrange, there was a ribbon tweeter in a waveguide and a large conventional woofer cabinet. If I had the $$$ and a room worthy of them, I'd consider building a DIY fully active system using that midrange horn. Unless you have an extra $50k, then just buy the Oswald Mills speakers...

Very cool.  I wonder how a RAAL ribbon tweeter with the AH-300 and Scan Speak woofer would do.  The wheels are a turnin'.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 5 Mar 2010, 01:41 am
I have less than $5000 in my speakers including the dbx Drive Rack and the Perreaux power amp driving the woofers. The OMA speakers use a passive crossover.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 15 Mar 2010, 05:58 pm
If you are careful, under $500 can get you this:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4409813867_464c0a8d99.jpg)

I've got it a bit smoother since then, but was a nice start.  Top line is on axis, each subsequent is 11.25 degrees more off axis.  Since that graph, the tweeter output has been reduced a bit and the 2k bump is flatter.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Mar 2010, 12:26 pm
If you are careful, under $500 can get you this:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4409813867_464c0a8d99.jpg)

I've got it a bit smoother since then, but was a nice start.  Top line is on axis, each subsequent is 11.25 degrees more off axis.  Since that graph, the tweeter output has been reduced a bit and the 2k bump is flatter.

Dan

Is that one of the econowave projects?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 16 Mar 2010, 04:32 pm
Nope.  It's a not too distant cousin though.  Certainly in the same price range. :thumb:

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 17 Mar 2010, 01:01 am
Why so cryptic?   :scratch:

I have been hosting family visits, and will be hosting for another two weeks, so little is getting done on my projects.  However, I am eagerly awaiting arrival of two pairs of Eleven horn mahogany turned horns.  One pair of custom made OS/LC horns, one pair of 140hz LC horns. 

Given, I have a rare opportunity to go a little crazy, I've been thinking about building bass horns (upper bass horns to be more correct).  Thinking in the 60hz+ range.  I plan to use distributed tapped horns for bass bass.   I am in brainstorming phase. 

Plan is to use my bass bins initially and who knows where it goes from there.  I read hornographic
pursuits with my different eyes than many perhaps.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hornographic1/1.html

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 17 Mar 2010, 05:51 pm
Less cryptic:
The woofer is an Eminence Delta Pro 12A
Specifications: *Power handling: 400 watts RMS *VCdia: 2.5" *Le: 0.84 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 5.71 ohms *Frequency range: 52-4,500 Hz *Magnet weight: 80 oz. *Fs: 51 Hz *SPL: 99.2 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 2.9 cu. ft. *Qms: 7.56 *Qes: 0.37 *Qts: 0.35 *Xmax: 4.6 mm * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 12.38", Cutout Diameter: 11.07", Mounting Depth: 6.22".

See this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-510s.pdf

The tweeter is a Selenium D220Ti-8 mounted on the Dayton H10RW 10" Round Waveguide.
Specifications: *Power handling: 80 watts RMS/160 watts program (with recommended 2,000 Hz, 12 dB/octave crossover) *Voice coil diameter: 1.7" *Throat diameter: 1" *Impedance: 8 ohms *Frequency response: 1,000-21,000 Hz (no crossover) *SPL: 109 dB 2.83V/1m *Magnet weight: 24 oz. *Dimensions: Diameter: 4.53", Depth: 2", 2.75" including threaded "nose".
Again this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JDUBS on 18 Mar 2010, 11:36 pm
Crossover details, pics, etc.? 

-Jim

Less cryptic:
The woofer is an Eminence Delta Pro 12A
Specifications: *Power handling: 400 watts RMS *VCdia: 2.5" *Le: 0.84 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 5.71 ohms *Frequency range: 52-4,500 Hz *Magnet weight: 80 oz. *Fs: 51 Hz *SPL: 99.2 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 2.9 cu. ft. *Qms: 7.56 *Qes: 0.37 *Qts: 0.35 *Xmax: 4.6 mm * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 12.38", Cutout Diameter: 11.07", Mounting Depth: 6.22".

See this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-510s.pdf

The tweeter is a Selenium D220Ti-8 mounted on the Dayton H10RW 10" Round Waveguide.
Specifications: *Power handling: 80 watts RMS/160 watts program (with recommended 2,000 Hz, 12 dB/octave crossover) *Voice coil diameter: 1.7" *Throat diameter: 1" *Impedance: 8 ohms *Frequency response: 1,000-21,000 Hz (no crossover) *SPL: 109 dB 2.83V/1m *Magnet weight: 24 oz. *Dimensions: Diameter: 4.53", Depth: 2", 2.75" including threaded "nose".
Again this for specifics:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 19 Mar 2010, 12:30 am
That's right, Dan. Open up. There are no secrets in The Lab.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 19 Mar 2010, 07:11 pm
Oh Yeah the AH300, a wonderful horn .
i just received mine a few weeks ago and started tweaking and tinkering....
i am running B&C DCM drivers which is what Bill Woods recommends .
i will receive the big RAALS next week but i don't know how i will implement them yet .
so far i run the horn from 400hz with open top .
crossover is done by tact in digital domain.
unfortunately, tact only provides 2 way crossover with the 2.2xp unless i want to buy a tact amp to power the raals .
so i am very undecided what to do:

change to a deqx unit for 3 way crossover and speaker correction?
the deqx is quite expensive and i would have to sell the tact first to finance the change , so that doesn't work.
or i go with a tact amp which has  inbuilt xover function but i am not sure i will like the tact amps sound with the raal .

too many options ....
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 19 Mar 2010, 07:35 pm
I love horns.   The biggest thing I'm looking for is directivity control... not acoustic gain.    That and I'm not interested in big enclosures so all of my efforts have surrounded what you would call a waveguide not a full-fledged horn system.   

But some of my favorite systems are horn based.   If I had a huge room at home I'd probably get crazy with mid-range and bass horns but I have to live with more modest sized enclosures and share them with my significant other.   







Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 19 Mar 2010, 07:41 pm
Since the RAAL is quite a bit less sensitive than the B&C DCM50+AH!300, I'm assuming you're talking about tri-amping. Do you already have a spare amp for the ribbons? Does that amp have a volume control? Do you happen to know the input impedence for that amp?

I know very little about the RAAL ribbons, but since you're going to be using it just for the top 1 or 1.5 octaves you might be able to get away with a simple 1st-order crossover.

And the B&C top-end looks pretty benign, so here's what I would try first: for the RAAL input I would use the same signal that you're using for the B&C driver with an inline RC network. You can tap the output signal of the amp driving the B&C. In between the binding posts and the input of the amp driving the RAALs, I would put a capacitor and perhaps a 10k ohm pot. If your RAAL amp has a volume control, no need for a pot -- if you don't have a volume control then you'll need the pot. The cap and the pot in parallel with the input impedence of the amp form a 1st-order filter -- you can try various C's using the workseet here: RFC calculator (http://www.opamplabs.com/rfc.htm). There remains questions about the gain structure so you'll need to look into that, but most likely you're okay.

Seems to me that's a decent start.

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 19 Mar 2010, 07:55 pm
I don't know the relative efficiencies either but I imagine you use your TACT to pad down the horn output to the level of whatever woofer you are using, assuming you don't have a bass horn. If that is the case, you might find that your RAAL is close to the woofer efficiency.
In any case, that should get you close enough for OJT.

Using my dbx I reduce the horn output by 14 db to match my woofers.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 19 Mar 2010, 09:15 pm
thanks john
i was thinking about something like that and you confirm that this would be my best option without braking the bank and finding out if its worth persuing.
i have some 3.3 and 4.7 caps and an old NAD integrated amp that will probably be fine for first impressions....


macrojack
i am biamping now and will/would be triamping with the raals which btw are 95db .
i use a 300b set on the horns which works great and assume that i will need 30-50w for the raals.
i actually have to run the woofers -6db right now to adjust the balance between the DCM and the bass.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 19 Mar 2010, 09:21 pm
Are you saying that your woofers are 6 db more efficient than the AH 300s or the other way around?
I don't know if it is the ideal tweeter amp but I always thought very highly of my little Melody/Onix SP-3. Used it can be had for around $550.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 19 Mar 2010, 09:26 pm
The problem with naming an efficiency... is that you have to also specify where.    Horns are by nature narrow bandwidth devices so typically you get a humped response around the acoustic gain of the horn and elsewhere it is significantly less.   You need lots of devices to cover the audible range and only rarely do you see such horns due to the expense and the vertical dispersion issues due to path distances between devices.   

It is more useful to look at a measured graph and just know that the system is much more efficient in some areas than others and you design a crossover...either active or passive to normalize the response. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 19 Mar 2010, 09:32 pm
sorry, no macrojack

i am saying that i drive the 106db horns with 5w
and the approx. 96db bass with 50w .
thats why there is too much power in the bass relative to the horn.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 19 Mar 2010, 09:36 pm
i have some 3.3 and 4.7 caps and an old NAD integrated amp that will probably be fine for first impressions....

Way, WAY, WAY too big. You'll need to look up the input impedence of the NAD amp. May be as low as 10k. 3.3uf & 10k ohms is a resonant freq of 4.8Hz. Use the calculator I linked to to get a ballpark figure, then you'll need to 'tune' it by ear if you don't have any measuring gear.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 19 Mar 2010, 09:39 pm
Kevin - I'm not at all well versed in these matters but I have been assuming that comparative efficiency ratings would get you an idea of gross matching. Refinement would then follow according to whatever means you have at your disposal but, assuming you got stage one right,
would require relatively small compensation.

RE:Horns - Mine reproduce 400 hz. to 14 Khz out of one narrow dispersion horn with only an 18 inch mouth. And they're pretty flat too. If you can sit back around 15 feet or more, they represent a great bargain. Hum4 god has the same horns.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 19 Mar 2010, 09:45 pm
Hi John

sorry i wasn't clear .
i am not very familiar w/ Rc networks and misread your post.
my idea actually was to take the signal from the tact preamp to the nad amp and use a 1st order xover after the nad amp .
would that work ?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 19 Mar 2010, 09:48 pm
Yep, that would work.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 19 Mar 2010, 10:06 pm
Kevin - I'm not at all well versed in these matters but I have been assuming that comparative efficiency ratings would get you an idea of gross matching. Refinement would then follow according to whatever means you have at your disposal but, assuming you got stage one right,
would require relatively small compensation.

RE:Horns - Mine reproduce 400 hz. to 14 Khz out of one narrow dispersion horn with only an 18 inch mouth. And they're pretty flat too. If you can sit back around 15 feet or more, they represent a great bargain. Hum4 god has the same horns.

You need to look at the measured response of a device on the horn if you are designing from scratch.   There isn't any shortcuts or easy rules of thumb.    You can do crude things with rules of thumb but you cannot do a good design unless you are extraordinarily lucky.    The same goes for other drivers too.   The published response by a manufacture is often done mounted in a wall in a 2Pi configuration.   You have to measure them in the actual acoustic environment (enclosure) being used because the measured response in the enclosure is significantly different than what is shown in a spec sheet.    Also... you have to look at a range of measurements of several different axis to do what I consider a really good design.    If you work from one measurement on one axis you are severely handicapped from getting good results.


I don't know the details of your project so no comment.   

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: hum4god on 19 Mar 2010, 11:52 pm
Hi Kevin

i agree , and that is why i like the tact or deqx , because it can correct for phase time and frequency, at least to some degree, making the driver applicable over a wider range of freq.
otherwise it sounds like you need a 4/5/6 way speaker to cover the whole freq. range.
i am curious what drivers you favor in what setup ?

malcolm
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 21 Mar 2010, 02:14 am
Crossover details, pics, etc.? 

-Jim
Crossover is but a work in progress--slow progress.  Right now it's asymmetrical at approx 1600Hz, but the response is flatter than the posted graph. 

The tweeter response looks more like this now:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2767/4374573056_06227b34dd_o.jpg)

I only measured to 45 degrees off axis b/c that's all the further I could keep the impu;se clean at the 5ft distance.  Even at 45 degrees I got a touch of reflection.

I'd take pics, but they are U G L Y!  I'm actually going to get then in a nice box before I finish the crossover work.  I've unfortunately been too happy with the sound to mess with them much.  I need to get discontent!
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 22 Mar 2010, 01:41 pm
I agree with Kevin, from the point of view that speaker design is a set of design compromises.  I think about the problem from an engineer's perspective as well.  However, where I likely part ways with Kevin is in the order of priorities.

I've heard really good implementations of 6" two ways, whether it be TM, MTM, TMM, none have floated my boat.  You get a "nice" presentation with the best of them, but there is always something missing.  I couldn't put my finger on it until hearing a large format, higher sensitivity 2 way speaker like that of Geddes' Summas, Tannoys or even an older 3 way Klipsch with all their warts (they trade one problem for another IMO). 

There is a lack of effort to the sound of these larger, higher efficiency speakers that is really addictive.  It was that je ne se quoi that I couldn't put my finger on before.  Others might find fault while listening to these speakers, because we each have our own set of priorities, but these hit closer to mine then any 6" 2way I've heard to date.

I am pretty much going on faith with my current horn project.  Its an experiment, but I do have some expectations that it will work out given what I've learned to date.

**I throw out the example of the 6" 2-way, but in reality it has been pretty much any speaker with a 1" dome tweeter from memory. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 22 Mar 2010, 08:30 pm
I agree with Kevin, from the point of view that speaker design is a set of design compromises.  I think about the problem from an engineer's perspective as well.  However, where I likely part ways with Kevin is in the order of priorities.

I've heard really good implementations of 6" two ways, whether it be TM, MTM, TMM, none have floated my boat.  You get a "nice" presentation with the best of them, but there is always something missing.  I couldn't put my finger on it until hearing a large format, higher sensitivity 2 way speaker like that of Geddes' Summas, Tannoys or even an older 3 way Klipsch with all their warts (they trade one problem for another IMO). 

There is a lack of effort to the sound of these larger, higher efficiency speakers that is really addictive.  It was that je ne se quoi that I couldn't put my finger on before.  Others might find fault while listening to these speakers, because we each have our own set of priorities, but these hit closer to mine then any 6" 2way I've heard to date.

I am pretty much going on faith with my current horn project.  Its an experiment, but I do have some expectations that it will work out given what I've learned to date.

**I throw out the example of the 6" 2-way, but in reality it has been pretty much any speaker with a 1" dome tweeter from memory.

I always attributed the "ease" with the larger drivers.... say 12" or 15" pro-sound drivers or horn loaded enclosures that have high efficiency in the midbass and above.    I think that is probably where we get our sense of scale of dynamics.... the insane pressure changes that instantly change with a good horn loaded system.    The high frequencies are almost never your limiting factor unless you are doing something screwy so a slightly horn-loaded 1" dome should be capable of much more headroom than any typical 6" mid-woofer as a direct radiator.    If I were designing a mega dynamics horn... I'd use a compression driver.   

But we are just talking in generalizations and I agree.... you need lots of cone area or horn loading to get massive dynamics.   That translates to larger enclosures, more complexity, more cost and of course you are trading off other attributes.   

There is not a one size fits all loudspeaker.   I design around my own desires primarily so most of what I'm chasing has to do with my own personal priorities.    Different strokes for different folks. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 23 Mar 2010, 01:12 am
I always attributed the "ease" with the larger drivers.... say 12" or 15" pro-sound drivers or horn loaded enclosures that have high efficiency in the midbass and above.   

Indeed, larger more efficient drivers sound very different to my ears than smaller ones, even multiples of smaller ones.  Not precisely sure why, but that has been my subjective take thus far.  I have not found however, that larger non-efficient drivers also sound this way.  Typically, I've found low efficiency large format woofers to sound extremely overdamped and very dull in comparison.  This in multi-ways.  Whether the dome tweeter had anything to do with it, I don't know.  Doubtful.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 31 Mar 2010, 10:58 pm
Have I share this link before?  I may have.

http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/

Some good audio porn there.

I ordered a pair of the horns pictured in one of the latest blogs.  Along with some custom done OS/LeCleach hybrid waveguides.  I am going down the slippery horn slope.

I haven't figured out what I want to do below the 140hz horn.  Initially, my bass bins (TD15X +PR)s will be used.  I am planning to finish 4 mini tapped horns (volvotreter's 38hz TH) for distributed bass, Geddes' style.   This may be high enough to cross directly to the 140hz horns with shallow slope, but I have half a mind to build a 60hz J horn.

I am a single man now (long story), so I have the opportunity to do as I may. 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jimdgoulding on 1 Apr 2010, 12:42 am
Do horns or guides put a signature on the sound?  I've only owned stats and speaks with surface mounted HF domes.  These have let me hear the ambience or characteristics of a setting when it is in a recording from recording to recording.  Hornspeakers or ones with guides and have always made me think that I was hearing something that the speakers were doing, not what the recording was doing.  I can think of an example recently where every recording sounded as tho it was recorded in a hall whether it was or not.  This "cast", for lack of a better word, is what I'm inquiring about.  Do you recognize what I am trying to describe and is it characteristic of this type of speaker?  If so, how is it dealt with?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jimdgoulding on 3 Apr 2010, 06:03 pm
Just so you know, I wasn't tryin to be a groove buster here.  It was an honest question.  I say this cause there have been no replies and thought maybe my question or statement might have been taken a wrong way.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 3 Apr 2010, 06:24 pm
Do horns or guides put a signature on the sound?  I've only owned stats and speaks with surface mounted HF domes.  These have let me hear the ambience or characteristics of a setting when it is in a recording from recording to recording.  Hornspeakers or ones with guides and have always made me think that I was hearing something that the speakers were doing, not what the recording was doing.  I can think of an example recently where every recording sounded as tho it was recorded in a hall whether it was or not.  This "cast", for lack of a better word, is what I'm inquiring about.  Do you recognize what I am trying to describe and is it characteristic of this type of speaker?  If so, how is it dealt with?  Thanks.

Anything that changes the response and the polar response is going to have a subjective impact.    I don't think there is one subjective attribute that you can always hang on the use of a horn.   It just depends on the type, implementation and a whole host of factors.   

Clearly.... just using a very simple horn to control high frequency dispersion is different than an entire horn-loaded system.   The deeper a horn gets and the more complex the acoustic pathways the more complex the issues so I'm in the camp of using them for some simple response shaping.   I use them to achieve an objective... a measured one that hopefully translates to a subjective one based upon the research of what we know is audible.    I'm also a big believer in the KISS principle.... don't complicate things unless it clearly achieves something worth the extra complication.   


Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 3 Apr 2010, 07:24 pm
Do horns or guides put a signature on the sound?  I've only owned stats and speaks with surface mounted HF domes.  These have let me hear the ambience or characteristics of a setting when it is in a recording from recording to recording.  Hornspeakers or ones with guides and have always made me think that I was hearing something that the speakers were doing, not what the recording was doing.  I can think of an example recently where every recording sounded as tho it was recorded in a hall whether it was or not.  This "cast", for lack of a better word, is what I'm inquiring about.  Do you recognize what I am trying to describe and is it characteristic of this type of speaker?  If so, how is it dealt with?  Thanks.

Sorry I didn't see this response earlier.  I would have responded.

The closets I have gotten to the recording is easily with my latest project.  I can't say I've had or even heard anything in it's league before as far as reproducing the recording.  You can see though that I still have some issues in the response above 8 kHz.  Fortunately that's where are hearing starts getting worse anyway.  Still I hope to smooth it out as high fidelity is the goal.  The other issue I have is below 100Hz.  My response starts its roll off there. 

The only thing I can surely say is that its character is less that other speakers I've heard and I think that's mostly d/t the constant directivity behavior.  One thing I have heard is when I tried to use a lower order filter, there was a horn sound and it isn't a good thing.  Seemed to bark and howl like a wolf.  My best guess is that I was just pushing the compression driver beyond what it can do as I'm crossover over below where the manufacturer recommends.  Right now it's got a 5th order filter on it.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jimdgoulding on 5 Apr 2010, 01:42 am
Thanks, fellas.  If I hear you right, it depends on the execution but there is a potential for this.  Supposed to get a listen to Duke's six piece system pretty soon now.  And from a cat who sold his big Sound Labs.  I'm thinkin Duke's system has wider dynamic range than the SL's.  It's the what else I hope to experience, also.  Get to bring some of my own records.  Trust me, I'm excited.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 5 Apr 2010, 04:38 am
Thanks, fellas.  If I hear you right, it depends on the execution but there is a potential for this.  Supposed to get a listen to Duke's six piece system pretty soon now.  And from a cat who sold his big Sound Labs.  I'm thinkin Duke's system has wider dynamic range than the SL's.  It's the what else I hope to experience, also.  Get to bring some of my own records.  Trust me, I'm excited.

Execution is everything.  Duke should have some good things to show.  I hope you guys actually have some SACDs to play.  Records are great, but lack the dynamics of digital.  I've heard some nice TT rigs, but none that could do dynamics like digital.  Without getting too subjective, SACD seems to have the best of both worlds.  I don't know much about the technical aspects of these things, but I know I really enjoy the SACDs I have.  That may have much to do with mastering, but it works for me.

Enjoy!

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jimdgoulding on 5 Apr 2010, 05:40 am
Danny boy- Judging from your avatar, you are a young man.  A blessed young man.  Would I be rude in asking if you have a "nice TT rig"?  Further, are you referring to mistracking or analog in general?  No worries, I will bring an album or two that will challenge the structure of his foundation, let alone a system, if it doesn't fly out of the groove.  Of course, I'm kidding, er, to a point.  Next time you're in the Houston area, how about givin me a call?  Cheers.

BTW, I'm grateful for your reply.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 6 Apr 2010, 05:10 am
No, not so young, but thank you.  Of course that's a relative term.

My TT is not so great.  Quite modest.  I'm not talking about mistracking or anything, just that I haven't heard a TT that could do dynamics as well as a modest digital rig.  Really though the recording (and pressing in the case of records) has more to do with it than anything from what I've heard.  I'm definitely not saying analog cannot be great in all aspects of reproduction--it has advantages and disadvantages.

If I'm ever in Houston, I'll look you up.  You can feel free to do the same if you ever get to the bay area.  You might be surprised at what a modest TT can do through a cheap set of speakers. :thumb:  Of course even internet radio can sound darned good.

Let us know how it goes at AudioKinesis.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: jimdgoulding on 6 Apr 2010, 05:21 am
Thanks for your reply, Dan, and invitation.  I'm tryin to get my wife to let me venture solo (I gotta a free ticket but only one) to SF, my old stompin grounds.  That happens, I will.  Gotta get down to Big Sur, too.  I'll be hearing the AK system right down the road from me, actually.  Duke knows that cat.  Dude has a top of the line SOTA table.  Think I'll send him a reminder.  And, sure, I'll report back.  Cheers   
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 6 Apr 2010, 07:40 pm
Oh, don't get me started on this beautiful coastline out here!  Can't seem to get enough of it.  Next I'm going to build a compact beach blaster w/ solar assist.  I've got much of that worked out already.  Making it saltwater and sand-proof while retaining fidelity and compactness is the challenge I can't get beyond.   :lol:  Something's got to give.  Must finish speakers.  Must finish speakers.............

Dan :D
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 10 Apr 2010, 01:26 pm
I just won an auction for an XTA DP224 speaker management system. It is intended to replace my dbx Drive Rack PA. The Drive Rack has worked out pretty well but it is an entry level piece like the Behringer, although I hear it is much better built.
From what I've been able to learn, XTA is the best stuff out there but I find that there aren't many people who are both familiar with esoteric pro gear and sensitive to home hi-fi, audiophile issues. There is some help to be had on the Lansing Heritage website, but I come away from there unsure about the communication of peers. Are they looking for the same things I am?
Does anyone here have any experience with XTA? Can you provide any advice, cautions or operational info? Suggestions?

I am bi-amping a two-way active system with horns on top and a 15 inch woofer on the bottom, crossed over at 300 hz.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 15 Apr 2010, 05:35 am
Thanks for your reply, Dan, and invitation.  I'm tryin to get my wife to let me venture solo (I gotta a free ticket but only one) to SF, my old stompin grounds.  That happens, I will.  Gotta get down to Big Sur, too.  I'll be hearing the AK system right down the road from me, actually.  Duke knows that cat.  Dude has a top of the line SOTA table.  Think I'll send him a reminder.  And, sure, I'll report back.  Cheers

Any update here?  What did you think?

Here's some updates on my speaker:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4063/4522096403_90871abee0_o.jpg)

The 600Hz bump is a boundary effect.  I'm trying to fix my measuring space, but it's proving difficult.
Here's the old graph for side by side:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4409813867_464c0a8d99.jpg)


What I'm learning is that making a CD crossover is very difficult.  It seems no matter what you do in one axis, it negatively effects the other.  Anyone have any experience with this stuff?  Insight would be greatly appreciated.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 15 Apr 2010, 11:53 am
I have a little bit of experience, Dan. I built an OB speaker using ToneTubby 12" drivers and the Beyma CP380M on a narrow-coverage conical horn.

And as you say, they're quite a bit of work and devolves into a balancing act. Also, too often I think DIYers pay too much homage to simplicity -- this stuff is complex. Here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2136#) is my crossover. For me, measurments got me very close then the last bit of tweaking was done by ear -- say, comparing 3.7, 4.0, and 4.3 ohm series resistor in the LPad/ CD compensation. Also, I spent much more time worrying about the power response than any one or several curves -- I use SpeakerWorkshop to simulate, and I'd export all the freq response curves, and then average them using Excel to get an approximation of the shape of the power response. In your curves one thing I'd think needs addressing is the widening in response at ~2.2khz -- you definitely have a S-shaped bump in power response there.

Also, what kind of amp are you using with these? A high-dampening SS amp will lead to a freq. response very closely approximated by your curves below. A 2- to 3-ohm output impedance no-feedback DHT amp will tend to not match your simulated response depending on the impedance of the speaker, unless you account for that. Any idea what the impedance curve for your speaker project looks like?

Could you post more data then just the final curves?

John

BTW, here's what the reponse for my speakers look like (0- to 35-deg off-axis in 5-deg increments):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28783)

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 15 Apr 2010, 01:01 pm
About doing xo/eq for constant directivity speakers....

I am thinking out loud here.  However, what I've thought might work, but haven't tried is doing the -30º to +30º measurements in 7.5º steps as Geddes does.  Then take a weighted average of the resulting curves--weights depend on power response, i.e the 0º curve gets the least weight.  This average curve then becomes your raw response curve that you use to design your crossover around.  Therefore, you are not correcting one curve but the amalgamation of them all.

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 15 Apr 2010, 01:22 pm
I have a little bit of experience, Dan. I built an OB speaker using ToneTubby 12" drivers and the Beyma CP380M on a narrow-coverage conical horn.

And as you say, they're quite a bit of work and devolves into a balancing act. Also, too often I think DIYers pay too much homage to simplicity -- this stuff is complex. Here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2136#) is my crossover. For me, measurments got me very close then the last bit of tweaking was done by ear -- say, comparing 3.7, 4.0, and 4.3 ohm series resistor in the LPad/ CD compensation. Also, I spent much more time worrying about the power response than any one or several curves -- I use SpeakerWorkshop to simulate, and I'd export all the freq response curves, and then average them using Excel to get an approximation of the shape of the power response. In your curves one thing I'd think needs addressing is the widening in response at ~2.2khz -- you definitely have a S-shaped bump in power response there.

Also, what kind of amp are you using with these? A high-dampening SS amp will lead to a freq. response very closely approximated by your curves below. A 2- to 3-ohm output impedance no-feedback DHT amp will tend to not match your simulated response depending on the impedance of the speaker, unless you account for that. Any idea what the impedance curve for your speaker project looks like?

Could you post more data then just the final curves?

John

BTW, here's what the reponse for my speakers look like (0- to 35-deg off-axis in 5-deg increments):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28783)
Thanks Nullspace, I'll get back to you on this as I have to go to work, but I'll be using a high damping SS amp.
About doing xo/eq for constant directivity speakers....

I am thinking out loud here.  However, what I've thought might work, but haven't tried is doing the -30º to +30º measurements in 7.5º steps as Geddes does.  Then take a weighted average of the resulting curves--weights depend on power response, i.e the 0º curve gets the least weight.  This average curve then becomes your raw response curve that you use to design your crossover around.  Therefore, you are not correcting one curve but the amalgamation of them all.


Geddes measures 0-90 degrees in 7.5 degree steps(as far as I remember).  Mine is 11.25 degrees to 90 degrees in 11.25 degree steps.  I can only get 8 graphs overlaid on one picture.

I'll get back in a couple days(crazy work schedule).

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 16 Apr 2010, 06:10 am
OK Nullspace.  Thank again for the response.  This stuff is not simple.  Your response definitely looks great!  I'd love to see what it looks like further off axis.  My first purple line is 33.75 degrees off axis.  The listening window starts there for me.  The first purple, yellow and blue line would be my listening window.  Anyway, there is too much energy around 2kHz.

Josh, thanks for the ideas with the crossover.  I like your way of thinking.  I'm not sure, but are you saying that's how Dr. Geddes does it?  I've heard him say he tries to match it over 60 degrees, but didn't guess as to the specifics of how, but your way seems reasonable.
Measuring distance is another thing.  The further away, the better your crossover integration looks.  Measuring one driver at a time seems less variable by distance.  I've got to do some work on that.  Any thoughts?

Back to Nullspace,
I measured those on the amp I'll be using--it is SS.  I do have some tube amps as well, but these speakers are not intended for those.  Too many projects.  I've decided that these are worth seeing through to the end at this point.  I really need to get them in a final cabinet.  That should be my next part I believe.  While I'm building that, I'd like to do some shopping for simulation software and well as a method for impedance measuring.  That's what really holding my design back right now.  Any recommendations for the impedance measuring rig?  I know I can make a device to do it with REW, but it won't give me the details I need.  As far as modeling goes, will speaker workshop model many axis simultaneously?  Do you think I'm correct about building the box next while I shop around?

OK, I gotta sleep.  Another 16hrs of work tomorrow.
Thanks!

Dan

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 16 Apr 2010, 06:20 am
Oh, one more thing: Josh, how would you propose the weighting specifically?  By percent?

Thanks,

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 16 Apr 2010, 11:57 am
Hey Dan,

Unfortunately, I was unable to get decent measurements further off-axis. Not such a big deal for me, as the compression driver is on a nominally 60deg conical horns.

I did something similar to what Josh suggested. I exported a text file for each simulated freq. response -- eight in all, 0- to 35-deg off-axis -- imported them into Excel and did a simple average, without any weighting. My rationale on the weighting is that each one is equally important.

I suspect that that is NOT how Earl does it; he's smart enough that he probably has a script in his software that calculates the actual power response from the individual curves. Simply averaging the curves would only give you an idea of how the power changes as you move along the x-axis (freq. response), which I think is good enough at this point in the design process. I mean, by now, you would have fixed big-ticket issues, like relative levels between mid and treble and you're looking to develop refinement in the design. At that point, I think the focus is less on what the power response is specifically and more on how it changes relatively; i.e., no sudden changes or 'bumps'. So, for me, the simple averaging works here.

With SS amps, the resulting impedance is mostly a non-issue. It's important for me as I'm pretty tied to using amps with 2-3ohms of output impedance AND would like to option of feeling comfortable with the resulting freq. response if someone where to ever bring over a very low output impedance amp.

I use SpeakerWorkshop for simulating crossovers. I think it'll do a couple axis simultaneously, but it won't do more than that. I ended up creating eight drivers each for both TT12 and CP380m -- one for every axial response -- and coming up with eight networks (obviously, all identical), simulating all eight networks, and then combining all the data onto one graph. It's a pain -- as you make changes, you have to make the changes in eight places and simulate eight different networks -- but it works.

I use the ARTA suite for measurment, both freq. response and impedance. I built a couple of simplified jigs instead of just one a la Wallin or the one described on the ARTA website.

Definitely get them into a cabinet. If your posted measurments are sans a box, you'll want to re-run them once the drivers are boxed up so as to capture any diffraction effects.

I hope that helps,
John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: JoshK on 16 Apr 2010, 04:28 pm
I don't know exactly what Geddes does, but I suspect it is something like what I suggested.  He has eluded to some of what he does that is why I know he weights the on axis less. 

The weights, the way I think of it, are pretty simple, but not a simple average.  Let's assume you make 8 measurements from 0º to 35º.  Think of it as slices of a pie where your measurement axis is down the middle of the slice, not the edge.   That is, take for example the 5º measurement (0 to 35 in 8 measurements is 5º increments).  The 5º measurement is the center of the slice of pie from 2.5º to 7.5º (easy to see if you draw it).  The 0º slice goes from -2.5º to 2.5º.   The 5º slice has a mirrored slice at -5º, 10º has a mirror at -10º, etc.  The only slice that doesn't have a mirror image is the 0º slice. 

Let's assume all the mirror image responses are the same as their counterparts (reasonable thing to assume since the speaker is symmetric.  So you don't have to measure -30º to -5º.  Now when you average, you need to give 0º half the weight of the other lines if you are basing on the power response.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 17 Apr 2010, 05:26 am
Hey Dan,

Unfortunately, I was unable to get decent measurements further off-axis. Not such a big deal for me, as the compression driver is on a nominally 60deg conical horns.

I did something similar to what Josh suggested. I exported a text file for each simulated freq. response -- eight in all, 0- to 35-deg off-axis -- imported them into Excel and did a simple average, without any weighting. My rationale on the weighting is that each one is equally important.

I suspect that that is NOT how Earl does it; he's smart enough that he probably has a script in his software that calculates the actual power response from the individual curves. Simply averaging the curves would only give you an idea of how the power changes as you move along the x-axis (freq. response), which I think is good enough at this point in the design process. I mean, by now, you would have fixed big-ticket issues, like relative levels between mid and treble and you're looking to develop refinement in the design. At that point, I think the focus is less on what the power response is specifically and more on how it changes relatively; i.e., no sudden changes or 'bumps'. So, for me, the simple averaging works here.

With SS amps, the resulting impedance is mostly a non-issue. It's important for me as I'm pretty tied to using amps with 2-3ohms of output impedance AND would like to option of feeling comfortable with the resulting freq. response if someone where to ever bring over a very low output impedance amp.

I use SpeakerWorkshop for simulating crossovers. I think it'll do a couple axis simultaneously, but it won't do more than that. I ended up creating eight drivers each for both TT12 and CP380m -- one for every axial response -- and coming up with eight networks (obviously, all identical), simulating all eight networks, and then combining all the data onto one graph. It's a pain -- as you make changes, you have to make the changes in eight places and simulate eight different networks -- but it works.

I use the ARTA suite for measurment, both freq. response and impedance. I built a couple of simplified jigs instead of just one a la Wallin or the one described on the ARTA website.

Definitely get them into a cabinet. If your posted measurments are sans a box, you'll want to re-run them once the drivers are boxed up so as to capture any diffraction effects.

I hope that helps,
John

John, that is a huge help!  Much appreciated.  You wouldn't happen to have a photo of the design would you?

Thanks a million! :thumb:

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 17 Apr 2010, 05:29 am
I don't know exactly what Geddes does, but I suspect it is something like what I suggested.  He has eluded to some of what he does that is why I know he weights the on axis less. 

The weights, the way I think of it, are pretty simple, but not a simple average.  Let's assume you make 8 measurements from 0º to 35º.  Think of it as slices of a pie where your measurement axis is down the middle of the slice, not the edge.   That is, take for example the 5º measurement (0 to 35 in 8 measurements is 5º increments).  The 5º measurement is the center of the slice of pie from 2.5º to 7.5º (easy to see if you draw it).  The 0º slice goes from -2.5º to 2.5º.   The 5º slice has a mirrored slice at -5º, 10º has a mirror at -10º, etc.  The only slice that doesn't have a mirror image is the 0º slice. 

Let's assume all the mirror image responses are the same as their counterparts (reasonable thing to assume since the speaker is symmetric.  So you don't have to measure -30º to -5º.  Now when you average, you need to give 0º half the weight of the other lines if you are basing on the power response.

That's certainly an interesting option as well.  I need to get a piece of software designed to do what I need.

Thanks Josh!

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 17 Apr 2010, 03:39 pm
Josh, good point on the weighting; I'll likely adopt that for my next project.

Here's what I'm listening to currently, Dan. I'm pretty happy with it, but have reached  an evolutionary dead-end I think. A new loudspeaker venture starts next week: Altec 802-8D on the conicals plus GPA-reissued 414-8B in, gasp, a ported box. I'll be tossed from the Open Baffle Club for sure...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=24448)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 17 Apr 2010, 07:08 pm
I thought that was the one from your gallery.  I used to use OBs as well and still like the idea.  Can I ask why your thinking of changing and going back to the box? 

I'm still considering using a ported box in this design.  I'll need 3 cuft for a 50Hz cutoff vs. a 1 cuft for 120Hz cutoff in a sealed box.  120Hz is high!  and may make integrating subs too difficult.  I know Dr. Geddes says the sealed will still work better, but the idea makes me nervous.  So far though, nothing he's told me has been wrong.  That's a track record hard to deny.  Do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks again,

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 17 Apr 2010, 09:06 pm
No bass under 50hz. I could just add one of the GR Research servo subs, but the OBs are 39"H x 36"W and I'm quickly running out of space in the room.

It's tough to argue with Earl's success, and I don't have any experience with one appraoch versus the either. I've been on a kick lately of trying to simplify my setup and do without subwoofers, which is why I tried the big OB and am now working on a ported box.

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 18 Apr 2010, 12:45 am
Your complaining about no bass under 50Hz!  :o  I've got bass down to 60Hz d/t the bass boost on my amp.  W/o it, I'm dropping like a stone at 100Hz!  :oops: I've got to get subs going or I need a big ported box.  I'm darned sure that the multi sub will work better, but I do like simplicity.

Did some more crossover work today.  I think I found my best compromise until I get the box built.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4529773648_86f0b2a8c2_o.jpg)

Still not perfect, but doesn't sound like it is in need of work to my ears.  I may give it 1/2 to 1 dB more treble.  If you wouldn't mind letting me know what you see in this that needs worked on, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks for all your help Null!  I wouldn't have got here w/o it.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 18 Apr 2010, 10:22 pm
You're more than welcome, Dan, but I didn't point out anything you wouldn't have figured out eventually. You seem to have an earnest desire to learn about this stuff and that's half the battle, as they say.

Generally, I think the curves look very good and if you're increasingly happy with them then you're certainly headed in the right direction. If those were mine, I'd like to know more about what's going on in the 1.8k-3khz range but at this point I think that's being picayune.

Best of the luck with the box-building. I'm terrible at working with wood and don't much look forward to that part of projects.

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 19 Apr 2010, 04:51 am
Yea, that's my biggest area of concern.  It's no longer audible as an error, but I do know it's there.  My bet it once the tweeter is boxed, it'll be OK.  We'll see.  Otherwise I don't really care enough to try to improve it.  Crazy thing is that it is right in the middle of where the ear is most sensitive.  Strange to me that it's not glaringly obvious to my ear.  The other thing is that maybe it's just do to past experience that this sounds so neutral and good.

The way the previous crossover was, the "S" curve was audibly obvious.  It could also be that a sin of omission is just less obvious.  One other thing is that I've adjusted my toe in to be less severe.  IOW, my listening axis is a bit more toward the center of the speaker than it was.

thanks again!

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 20 Apr 2010, 04:34 am
John, I've been looking at your build and thinking about you saying the no bass below 50Hz.

I made an OB once not long ago:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2632/4120525128_9bee0f6a4d_b.jpg)

Here's the 11.25 off axis graph:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4195329963_b6077dd0ab_o.jpg)

22.5 off axis (what I was hoping to be my listening axis):

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2662/4195330005_20cf790afa_o.jpg)

Let's move to 45 degrees:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/4195330109_2a98ba956d_o.jpg)

and at 67.5 off axis:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2761/4188783173_0abed86c8b_o.jpg)

and finally the listening position response:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2799/4130115102_01bb18681e_o.jpg)

 :duh:
If that last graph was taken at the time of arrival from the speaker to the loudspeaker, it would look something like the 45 degree angle graph.
You've certainly solved a lot of these problems with the waveguide, but the baffle's woofers and MW should behave in a similar manner.  You can see in my last graph that there is a lot of reflection coming off the bump in the power response and it was definitely audible and reduced the image clarity.  It gave me the sense that there was too little bass and too much midrange as well.  Even though I'm not getting as deep of bass now without the boost, it sounds like I have a better balance either way.  I was thinking, mastering engineers do not use OB speakers and therefor OBs w/o a boosted low end will just sound bass light.  I hate to say it b/c I love the idea of OBs, but I can't go back now unless I could bring the power response back to more like a cardioid.  That's what made me want to build a box again.  I tried to reasonably get the balance to align with an OB, but it just seemed a daunting challenge.  Everything started looking like a small midrange, a WG tweeter and a number of large woofers with a lot of custom filters.  There are more options if you're interested in thinking out loud here or starting a new thread to consider. At about 1.3 kHz, it looks like your baffle may behave the same way as my smaller baffle did in the 1-4 kHz range.  You may want to look there for the lack of bass character.

Hopefully that may shed some light on what you might be hearing,

Dan




Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 20 Apr 2010, 06:04 pm
Thanks for your thoughts, Dan, but I think it's pretty clear that the lack of low end from my speaker is both a function of the woofers I used and a miscalculation on my part in the low-end boost the woofer filter would provide.

The midbass, ToneTubby 12", is very efficient -- the mfg. says 97.3dB/1W and I think that's low; book values for Qes and Fs are 0.86 and 80.3Hz and mine measure 0.762 and 89.9Hz, so unless Vas is wicked low (I don't have a decent setup to measure Vas) my pair is somewhere in the neighborhood of 98.5dB/1W. To put together a woofer section, even if there's four in parallel, that'll keep up sensitivity-wise @ <50Hz is a tall, tall order.

As well, the Eminence Kappa-12A I'm using have a resonant freq. of 45Hz, and there's just no way you're going to get open baffle bass below Fs. Also, I had expected the series resistor + series inductor to provide some peaking in the reponse at Fs -- instead, the peaking is at 55Hz which turns out to be the effective end of bass reproduction.

I'm actually pretty happy with it -- I'd have to be, since I've been listening in mono for almost four months now. But there is a distinct absence of energy in the bottom octave and a half that makes some music less enjoyable to listen to.

The ~1.3kHz bump you point out (it's actually at 1.2kHz, but who's quibbling?) isn't a baffle artifact; it's a combination of cone breakup for the ToneTubby and the widening pattern of the horn. Since the crossover is right at 1.2kHz, you get a little of both for the price of just one...

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 21 Apr 2010, 03:35 am
I listened to mono OB for 2 years! :wink:  Was absolutely please with the price/performance.

I didn't realize that your crossover was so low. :duh:  Judging by the response i had assumed higher.  One should never assume.

I think if I were you I'd just add a sub then, I understand the desire to keep it simple.

good luck, and keep us informed.  I'd love to talk more about why you chose all the different aspects of you design, but perhaps this isn't the place.

Good stuff,
 
Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 27 Apr 2010, 11:27 pm
Update on some crossover work.  I figured out what's going on in the 2-3k department. It boils down to Eminence's graph being well off.
Here's the polar graph of the woofer:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3591/4558838322_9b5a3ddf58_o.jpg)

So I built a notch filter with some spare parts:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/4558208707_39b67feb93_o.jpg)

Then looking at the tweeter's response:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/4558863258_e209f0b424_o.jpg)

It was clear that is wasn't the major offender.

The woofer sans notch filter looks like this:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4056/4558838092_436c2c4c86_o.jpg)

Then add in the notch:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4558838002_b0783f85c5_o.jpg)

Much closer to ideal.

The whole response prior to notch:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3305/4558838178_9598ffa991_o.jpg)

Then with notch added:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4558208311_3363ce6b21_o.jpg)

Notice the bass doesn't drop off on this b/c I wasn't running a fullrange signal on the rest of the graphs to save time.

Finally a little different notch filter:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/4559024214_02357128dc_o.jpg)

Just an update,

Dan

BTW, I think the first notch is a bit better.









 
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 28 Apr 2010, 07:14 pm
Hi Dan,

I'm sure you realize this by now, but you'd have a significantly easier time if you had either:
A) a horn/compression driver combo with a bit more BW on the low end, or
B) a better-behaved mid driver.

At 2kHz, the mid is well into breakup and the treble is at the end of it's line, making blending the two together very difficult. I will say, given all that, your simulations look pretty good. From an aural standpoint, I'd be listening for the mid's cone breakup at 2kHz.

Thanks for posting the ongoing evolution.

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 30 Apr 2010, 03:14 am
I wish that midbass was as well behaved as the Eminence graph!  I do have a couple tricks up the sleeve yet.  I hope to make it work.

Yea, the midbass break up is audible.  Not as noticeable as you may think, but certainly not ideal.

Thanks for the thoughts,

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: *Scotty* on 30 Apr 2010, 04:30 am
Dan,what are we seeing in the graph at the 6.9k cursor mark. The response starting at this point and continuing on out to where the highs roll off looks kind of ragged. Is this a measurement artifact or is it real.  The response on the tweeter looks great below the 6.95k point.
Scotty
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 30 Apr 2010, 05:25 am
Yea, I was just marking the "sweet zone" so to speak.  I believe the ragged response that is real as I don't have it when I measure other speakers.  Not really sure what's causing it.  Right now my biggest concern is the crossover.  That raggedness will be my next battle though and I've got some ideas of how to fix it.  My best guess it that it's the roughness in the throat of the Dayton waveguides.
Here's what a different and cheaper driver looks like on it:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3516/4564439487_c58167c0e2_o.jpg)

Has anyone mentioned that perfecting a speaker is quite a lot of work! :lol: :duh:

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 1 May 2010, 11:48 pm
I think I'm getting a bit closer:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4569596958_4d614625d9_o.jpg)
old best:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4558208311_3363ce6b21_o.jpg)

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: AudioVoice on 8 May 2010, 03:11 pm
lots of info's about horn speakers at my forum :

http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/index.php

55 pages of different systems from all around the world, which i update frequently.

http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/...read.php?t=168

and more galleries here :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7881544@N05/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8010632@N05/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page1/

have fun : =))
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 9 May 2010, 05:27 am
Here's my latest configuration and I gotta say that I am done for a while with this project.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3320/4589827007_328d6998ec_o.jpg)

Does that look a bit better John? :)  I don't want to calculate another notch filter for a long time only to have it not work out and be forced to do more fiddling and measuring. I still need to improve my last one, but this sounds ridiculously good at this point.

Dan

Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: doug s. on 9 May 2010, 04:36 pm
hey dan, ever play w/something like a deqx dsp x-over/eq?  you can get amazingly flat response w/these...

doug s.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 9 May 2010, 06:06 pm
hey dan, ever play w/something like a deqx dsp x-over/eq?  you can get amazingly flat response w/these...

doug s.
You can't EQ a polar response unless it's the same deviation at every angle.  Making this crossover is sort of like squeezing a baloon as Zilch says. :lol:   You can flatten it at one angle, but a bubble will pop up somewhere else.  The only thing a device like that would help me with is the 9 and 12k dips.  I think I may well know what the problem is there, but it isn't offensive so I'm not too worried about it at present.  Right now I just want to spend a lot of time listening to music.  It's been a week since my stereo has been fully operational.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: nullspace on 9 May 2010, 11:53 pm
Does that look a bit better John? ... this sounds ridiculously good at this point.

Looks great, Dan. The last word is always 'How does it sound?" And, if it sounds 'ridiculously good' then nothing more needs to be done. Nice job and congratulations.

John
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 10 May 2010, 12:17 am
Thanks John!  Much appreciated.  Too bad I find it so hard to say "I'm done.  It's good enough." OCD.  But it does sound incredible.  That I'm happy with.  For some reason I want to perfect the stinking graph.  By the sound of it I think it's done, but the ripples in the graph are plain eating me.   :nono:Gotta learn to relax. :icon_lol:

Really my next battle has to be good performance for the money subwoofing.

BTW, nice website.   :thumb:

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 10 May 2010, 02:38 am
I read somewhere that anyone can paint but it takes an artist to know when the painting is finished. Be an artist - not a technician.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 10 May 2010, 05:34 pm
I read somewhere that anyone can paint but it takes an artist to know when the painting is finished. Be an artist - not a technician.
Wise words Mr. Jack.  I think part of what is eating me is b/c I just had surgery and I have to take time off work.  So, I am just lounging around trying not to do anything.  It's hard to do nothing, but that's what I'm doing. 

Surfing the web while listening to music,

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 10 May 2010, 07:03 pm
Dan - I bet the doctor told you to take it easy. Do as you are told. Busy is not necessarily a virtue. It can be a debilitating distraction. We are human beings - not human doings. Meditate!
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 10 May 2010, 07:47 pm
Dan - I bet the doctor told you to take it easy. Do as you are told. Busy is not necessarily a virtue. It can be a debilitating distraction. We are human beings - not human doings. Meditate!
Yes She did and I will.  2 days ago I didn't and the pain became unbearable and the wound was all inflamed.  :duh:  So I'll listen now and it's looking and feeling much better.  I may be slow, but I'm not completely stupid. :lol:

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: doug s. on 10 May 2010, 07:56 pm
You can't EQ a polar response unless it's the same deviation at every angle.  Making this crossover is sort of like squeezing a baloon as Zilch says. :lol:   You can flatten it at one angle, but a bubble will pop up somewhere else.  The only thing a device like that would help me with is the 9 and 12k dips.  I think I may well know what the problem is there, but it isn't offensive so I'm not too worried about it at present.  Right now I just want to spend a lot of time listening to music.  It's been a week since my stereo has been fully operational.

Dan
well, your response looks like the dips are pretty consistent, regardless of the angle.  seems if you could use a deqx-type dewice to take care of it on-axis, then it would also be better off-axis...

doug s.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 10 May 2010, 09:09 pm
well, your response looks like the dips are pretty consistent, regardless of the angle.  seems if you could use a deqx-type dewice to take care of it on-axis, then it would also be better off-axis...

doug s.
Before getting the crossover as correct as I have, only at the 8-9 and 12kHz dips were the same.  Actually that's still the same.  Now it may help a little that they are closer to consistent and it is something to consider, but results may not be optimal.

Look at this crossover made mostly with the intent of getting to axial response as flat as possible in the crossover region.  Keep in mind that there are still filters in place to smooth the off axis response as well.  It's much uglier w/o them.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3338/4596080057_57ace4840c_o.jpg)

Cool thing was that this wasn't too offensive, but smoothing one axis only is unlikely to help the whole picture.  What I've got now is just better.  At this point the DEQX may be just a sideways step or worse or possibly better.  It's a guess.  In that graph and others the DEQX could help the 8-9 and 12kHz dips and the 500-600 hz bump.  I think I'd still rather solve the issues there as well instead of band aiding them.  This reminds me an old German saying,  "If the rooster crows on the donkey's back, the weather will stay the same ............... or it will be different." :lol:

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 10 May 2010, 09:29 pm
Knock it off, Doug. Dan needs to rest up for now. He's convalescing.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 10 May 2010, 09:44 pm
Knock it off, Doug. Dan needs to rest up for now. He's convalescing.
And ever so slowly!
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: doug s. on 10 May 2010, 10:21 pm
dan, i am not the only one who thinks the deqx is the farthest thing from a band-aid.  active x-overs rule, imo, and the deqx is simply taking things to another level.

ymmv,

doug s.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 10 May 2010, 10:34 pm
I have to agree with Doug on this. I am using a dbx Drive Rack PA which I have learned is an entry level product. It works pretty well but quieter, more flexible and more precise options exist. So, having learned that, I hastened to purchase an XTA DP 224 and promptly learned that I could drown in it. This thing supposes a level of computer competence to which I shall never attain. I'm currently seeking someone who can set and calibrate it for me. Unfortunately, where I live, I may as well be seeking people who knew Ben Franklin personally. Everywhere I call, including our local college, I find the same blank stares. Is there anyone out there in AC land who can bring me a remedy?
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 11 May 2010, 01:43 am
dan, i am not the only one who thinks the deqx is the farthest thing from a band-aid.  active x-overs rule, imo, and the deqx is simply taking things to another level.

ymmv,

doug s.

I do not think the DEQX is just a band aid.  It has legitimate uses, but what I've posted isn't one of them and I showed why though maybe I didn't go into enough detail.  To fix what it can about my posted polar response would just be band aiding the problem.  IOW just covering up a problem to make a pretty picture.  I'd rather cure the disease.  Otherwise it may present another issue.  There's a problem in the throat that may well be rearing its head in the form of the treble's double dip.  So for that ailment it would be a band aid that may actually worsen the effects of the discontinuities.  The 600Hz thing I haven't really looked closely at yet, but my last crossover did minimize it dramatically.  My other response deviations are not the same at every angle, so it may or may not improve the problems.  Nothing I've done would lead me to think it would actually help and would probably do some damage.  Two of them could be used to help.  It could do wonders for my bass response and everyone's for that matter, but I didn't post them and they need to be done in room.  I could also use it to boost my response out to 20 kHz.

I'm certainly not saying that the DEQX is a bad thing and I agree with you on active crossovers and the DEQXs place among them.

I have to agree with Doug on this. I am using a dbx Drive Rack PA which I have learned is an entry level product. It works pretty well but quieter, more flexible and more precise options exist. So, having learned that, I hastened to purchase an XTA DP 224 and promptly learned that I could drown in it. This thing supposes a level of computer competence to which I shall never attain. I'm currently seeking someone who can set and calibrate it for me. Unfortunately, where I live, I may as well be seeking people who knew Ben Franklin personally. Everywhere I call, including our local college, I find the same blank stares. Is there anyone out there in AC land who can bring me a remedy?

I agree with Doug's last post as well though I can see where my previous post might make a person think otherwise.  For that I apologize.  I know it's hard to just read and not read into a post.  My philosophy is that you should get everything else as correct as possible before you go to digital parametric equalization.   The XTA DP 224 sounds interesting.  Never even heard of it before, but it is something I'm interested in now.  Maybe someone else will chime in here or perhaps start a thread on it.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 11 May 2010, 03:14 am
Dan - I bought my XTA from a guy named Matt Lindsley in Amarillo, TX. He was selling them on e-bay. Perhaps he still has some. It is a discontinued item from XTA but you can find the manual for it on their website.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: DanTheMan on 11 May 2010, 05:36 pm
XTA makes some really nice gear.  However I think I'll stick to the Behringer d/t its availability and plenty of others who could help me when, not if, I get stuck.

Dan
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: macrojack on 13 May 2010, 10:43 pm
Here's a consideration for horns. Mine are 109 db efficient. My woofers are about 100 db. I listen no louder than about 85 db, except for movies which I've never measured.
So, in checking with the factory about the difference between my Parasound A-23 amps with the bigger A-21 amp, I learned that the input stage is identical and the driver and output topology are the same. The reason they sound somewhat different is the A-21 operates in Class A to 10 watts whereas the A-23 operates in Class A for only the first 2.75 watts.
So, if my math and my assumptions are correct, I would never leave Class A operation except perhaps during films where a small dropoff in fidelity would go unnoticed. I'm quite eager to get the pieces together.
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: MartinV56 on 15 Feb 2012, 01:34 am
I think here is better


(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1651/s4010297ed.jpg)

My horn systems

My other horn system


(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7578/s4010332editar.jpg)

More horns
http://www.hifichile.cl/index.php?/topic/921-horns/page__st__600#entry111531
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: mgalusha on 15 Feb 2012, 02:16 am
Very cool looking.  :thumb:


I think here is better

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1651/s4010297ed.jpg)

My horn systems
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: J-Pak on 30 Sep 2013, 03:37 pm
Giving this dormant topic a bump. Anyone else have any further experiences?

I am thinking about giving Olson's Le Cleac'h implementation a try ("recently" information for a dual woofer version was posted), but would really prefer to audition them first. Slooooow trickle of updates in the DiyA thread  :)
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: rajacat on 30 Sep 2013, 04:09 pm
Check out these reasonably priced waveguide/horns @ http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12.html.
Here's the main thread dealing with the huge SEOS group buy.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here
Another interesting link to a mega diy SEOS/ IWATA waveguide project.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490928/big-horns-experiments-ae-td15m-ae-td15h-seos24-iwata-300-jbl-beryllium-bms

..Roy
Title: Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
Post by: eso on 20 Feb 2020, 03:11 pm
This is a very old thread, but lots of old memories in here.

I started with horns when I bought a pair of early VOTT A5s in 1999. Then I met Bruce Edgar...

I spent some time in the early '00s helping Bruce in his shop during which time I got a firsthand opportunity to learn is design approach. I also started designing and building my own experiments.

My current system, and hopefully the last one. Still many details but it's coming together:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204915)