GR subs

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Ern Dog

GR subs
« on: 3 Jan 2016, 05:06 pm »
I'm in need of a sub for my 2 ch music/HT rig and I'll eventually get dual subs.  I just ordered a Rythmik GR research sub.  I'm wondering how this sub compares to the Rythmik standard version with the aluminum drivers.  I'm guessing the aluminum offers less distortion because of the rigidness and the paper cone sound more natural sounding?

What I'm looking for is clean tight bass that will fill in the last couple octaves that my main speakers don't capture.  I like realistic sounding bass.  I have some live cd's that don't sound real without a bass foundation, for example the Eagles 'Hell freezes over' or Dead can Dance new live cd.  I sometimes like to listen loud too.  I also love classical music and jazz, so the subs need to do it all. 

I'm interested in people's thoughts about these two sub designs who have heard them both.

Thanks,
Ernie

Ern Dog

Re: GR subs
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jan 2016, 06:08 pm »
I forgot to add that my listening room is 23'x13.5'.  My main speakers are Coincident Total Eclipse II.  I also have some room treatment, 2 Gik corner traps positioned in the front corners, and 2 Gik panels to capture the 1st reflection points.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #2 on: 3 Jan 2016, 06:28 pm »

Nice size room and speakers. I have heard the aluminum hits harder and just as fast in lower regions. Either way you should be good.

poseidonsvoice

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #3 on: 3 Jan 2016, 06:51 pm »
Link to the speakers the OP owns:

http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/total_eclipse.htm

Best,
Anand.


Early B.

Re: GR subs
« Reply #4 on: 3 Jan 2016, 11:21 pm »
Nice speakers!  8)

Ern Dog

Re: GR subs
« Reply #5 on: 3 Jan 2016, 11:36 pm »
Thanks guys.

Somebody here must have heard both subs?

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #6 on: 3 Jan 2016, 11:46 pm »
The person I shared with you did and that was the opinion. If you already ordered the GR version why worry about it. The time to have asked was before the purchase. My guess is the GR might blend better with your speakers.

Rocket_Ronny

poseidonsvoice

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #7 on: 3 Jan 2016, 11:50 pm »
Thanks guys.

Somebody here must have heard both subs?

From the Rythmik website: "The main performance difference is in the drivers. F12G uses a paper driver designed by GR Research. The paper driver is lighter than our standard aluminum drivers and has a more extended response. It can handle a higher crossover point, however, this is only significant when crossing above 80 Hz If a higher crossover point is desired, F12G is the subwoofer of choice."

Best,
Anand.

Danny Richie

Re: GR subs
« Reply #8 on: 4 Jan 2016, 01:40 am »
Here is the entirety of what Anand posted from the Rythmik website:  The main performance difference is in the drivers. F12G uses a paper driver designed by GR Research. The paper driver is lighter than our standard aluminum drivers and has a more extended response. It can handle a higher crossover point, however, this is only significant when crossing above 80 Hz If a higher crossover point is desired, F12G is the subwoofer of choice. Please note: when crossing this high, localization can become an issue and dual subwoofers are recommended. Regarding the lower mass, this results in slightly better dynamics at low to moderate output levels. The downside with the paper cone is that it is not as stiff as our aluminum drivers. Our standard F12 subwoofer features the same driver and amplifier as our signature edition, but has a vinyl veneer.

I obviously like the lighter weight paper based cone. It does offer a more natural sound to it. And unless you are going to be pushing it constantly to the X-Max it really doesn't give up anything to the Aluminum version.

You made a good choice with your purchase. You'll really enjoy it.

mresseguie

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #9 on: 4 Jan 2016, 03:20 am »
Hello, Ernie.

I have not heard the aluminum cone, but I do own a single F12G. I think it is a tremendously good sub and a great deal for the price. As good as it is and as good as it sounds, I personally think you will be happier with two of them (or more if you subscribe to the Swarm theory). I've used mine in three rooms - ~15'L X 12'W X 8.5'H, 13.5' X 29' X 8.5', and a huge cathedral ceiling family room/kitchen/breakfast nook.

No time to finish....will add later...

Okay, more time now.
In the smallest room there was never any doubt that one sub was enough. The room was filled with low Hz bass in a very pleasing way.

 In the cavernous family room, I struggled to find an ideal location for just one sub. There were just too many cubic ft of open space to fill. It wasnt the sub's fault because I never got my L/R speaker to sound very good there either. I suspect my family room was deliberately designed to be the 'acoustic room from Hell'. The architect ought to be shot. I briefly tried using two subs (an F12G and a PSB 12" sub) and realized even this was inadequate. My wife wasn't quite ready for a subwoofer swarm invasion, so I never pursued multiple subs in that room. The only speaker that sounded 'right' in this room was my Ancora CC.

In my 13.5' X 29' room (formal living room/dining room), the single F12G was adequate, but everything sounded better when I added the PSB sub. My two-channel system sounds best in this space.

Three things kept me from running out to buy a second F12G: my deciding I 'had to' get a pair of the Rythmik double eight subs (increased WAF appeal), but never happened due to unfortunate investment decision; my relocating to Taiwan for 6 months (had planned to buy a pair of double eights for Taiwan until I discovered the 21% import duty!), and my 'discovering' the GR Research OB sub sound at Captainhemo's (Jay) home - six hours of wonderful music, food and conversation. Simply magical.

So do consider buying two F12G subs, but start with one. Perhaps I could sell you mine down the road once my future living location is clearer.
Michael
« Last Edit: 4 Jan 2016, 05:26 am by mresseguie »

jseipp

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #10 on: 4 Jan 2016, 05:25 am »
Sorry, I haven't heard the aluminum cones either, but I have GR drivers running in three different rooms (sounds excessive), dual open-baffle in one and a single sealed in the others, transformative in every one.

I have also come to appreciate Danny's experience and willingness to share it -- I certainly wouldn't worry about your purchase, and just look forward to completing the pair :).

Ern Dog

Re: GR subs
« Reply #11 on: 4 Jan 2016, 05:38 am »
Thanks guys!

I'm excited about this!

mirekti

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #12 on: 1 Dec 2016, 04:59 am »
I am still confused about the difference in paper vs alu drivers (among other things).
Let me try to put it this way, my plan is to use two F12 (sealed) subwoofers to augment Harbeth P3ESR and will be used 90% for the music. The crossover FQ will be lower than 80Hz (I cannot apply High pass so P3ESR will be run full range).
I wondered what would be the better match to Harbeth, a paper or alu driver?
One generic question about subwoofers too. As they will be placed on the front wall some 3 ft behind the main speakers, there will obviously be some timing issues. And, as I cannot delay the main speakers would phase correction be enough or the integration simply won't work and I shouldn't waist my time in trying to integrate them?
I have also read somewhere that the box sizes are not the same for F12G and F12, correct?
Also: "Light weight paper cone with foam surround for superior dynamics". -> What is typical life expectancy for the foam?

corndog71

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #13 on: 1 Dec 2016, 03:19 pm »
These servo-controlled subs from Brian and Danny are in my opinion the best out there for the money.  They simply disappear leaving only the music.  Even after years of use I'm surprised by their performance.  No bloat.  No boom unless there's supposed to be boom.  I often forget they're working until I turn them off and the foundation they provide vanishes.

They're also great for movies and TV!

rollo

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #14 on: 1 Dec 2016, 03:41 pm »
    As a dealer over the years showing our wares at the audio shows to date I have yet to experience better bass than what Danny offers. When we used his design at Capitol Audiofest with the BG Radia speakers we received rave reviews.  As soon as we put an Organ or bass recording on the room was filled.
   One will never go wrong with a GR OB sub. Never ! KABOOM for the buck as well.


charles

Danny Richie

Re: GR subs
« Reply #15 on: 1 Dec 2016, 09:08 pm »
The paper based drivers have more of a natural sound. The paper drivers offer a little better resolution, are slightly faster, are a little cleaner, and have a little better dynamics. They really don't give up anything to the metal cone drivers.

And the foam surrounds will last a lifetime. They are not like the old foam products of many years ago that rot and fall to pieces.

Tyson

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #16 on: 1 Dec 2016, 09:14 pm »
I've heard a ton of subs and I've built some subs myself.  GR Research are the best I've heard, period.  They aren't the loudest I've heard.  That would be the 12 Shiva's Dancing that my friend TomW built into an Infinite Baffle and used his entire basement as an enclosure for the 12 Shiva woofers and cut a hole in the floor of his home theater and vented the base into the HT room from the basement below.  That was some crazy sh!t.  But the GR Research subs sound way better.  And hey, if you need more output, just buy another one.  Most rooms will only need one, though.

mirekti

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #17 on: 1 Dec 2016, 09:30 pm »
The paper based drivers have more of a natural sound. The paper drivers offer a little better resolution, are slightly faster, are a little cleaner, and have a little better dynamics. They really don't give up anything to the metal cone drivers.

And the foam surrounds will last a lifetime. They are not like the old foam products of many years ago that rot and fall to pieces.

That was an answer which sold two F12G, Danny ;) Thanks.

I do have one concern so one more question, please.

I would like to pair two F12G subs with Harbeth P3ESR, but my integrated amp cannot neither delay the signal nor cut off low FQ to main speakers. Based on this I would only be able to do some phase adjustment on the subwoofer, but the sound from the subwoofers would always be behind in time due their placement behind the main speakers. The main speakers are some 3ft from the front wall, 4.5ft apart and I listen some 4ft from the speakers' plane (near field). The subs would be be few inches from the front wall, behind the speakers, but outside of them.

In case I cannot change the amp, should I even bother trying to integrate those subs with P3ESR?


HAL

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #18 on: 1 Dec 2016, 10:05 pm »
If you look at the specs for the Rythmik A370PEQ servo amp, it has both crossover and phase controls along with a single PEQ.  That is in the F12G servo sub. 


mirekti

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Re: GR subs
« Reply #19 on: 1 Dec 2016, 10:22 pm »
If you look at the specs for the Rythmik A370PEQ servo amp, it has both crossover and phase controls along with a single PEQ.  That is in the F12G servo sub.

The thing is I can only send line level signal and speakers signal from the amp at the same time, but I cannot get it back to input as the input is used by let's say CD player (it is an integrated amp). So, I cannot send the line out and bring it back as for input. The only way I can do it is by sending it to the sub and speakers at the same time.
Given the fact main speakers are in front of the subs, the sound from subs will always lag behind in time.
Maybe I don't understand the matter well enough. I am trying to comperhand if I correct the phase at crossover FQ, the time will still be delayed from the subwoofer compared to the mains.

In short, I believe I can fix the phase, but not the time. Hence, my concern, is it even worth trying to integrate subs and mains given this limitation?