AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: Bear on 24 Apr 2012, 04:47 am
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For those interested: NwAvGuy.com (http://NwAvGuy.com)
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That little ODAC DAC board looks very interesting and definitely "Cheap and Cheerful", though it probably performs way out of this category. I'm seriously considering getting one and using RCA outs instead of the 3.5mm jack.
http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=39
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That little ODAC DAC board looks very interesting and definitely "Cheap and Cheerful", though it probably performs way out of this category. I'm seriously considering getting one and using RCA outs instead of the 3.5mm jack.
http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=39
You should go for it. Can't judge by the price because of the diy aspect. The assembled version is $150, so if it was a proper retail unit by a reputable company and nice enclosure you'd end up in the ballpark of the $450 Peachtree DACiT, which also happens to use the same chip and punches above its weight.
The enclosure-less board is so light and small it just needs a mini usb adapter to connect directly to the computer, eliminating the usb cable from the equation (direct connection sounds much better) - then solder the output of your choice.
EDIT: Just like to add that the designer of the ODAC appears to have really put a huge amount of effort into pulling the best measured performance out of that chip and board design. Have to appreciate the lengths to which he outlines why he did what he did. He's evangelistic (actually that's an understatement) about the science, but as long as it sounds good who cares.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/odac-released.html (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/odac-released.html)
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Finally
People on budget were waiting for this, we will see how good it performs the Nwavguy Objective philosophy applied on this design.
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Keeping my ears to the ground for the ODA desktop headphone amp too. Might go DIY on that one. The ODAC I will probably go pre-built.
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I have a few hours on it. Not sure how I feel about it. It does some things really, really well. I would say the guy accomplished his goals. Detail is addictive, it's dead quiet, noticeable channel separation, instruments come close to sounding real but IMO overall it lacks weight, upper mid a little lit up and overall slightly dry or mechanical sounding, but that could be speakers coming into play synergy-wise. Still think my Hiface two/TDA combo has a more natural and 'musical' presentation, but will give the ODAC more time - it does the hear-every-single-pluck of the string thing so well. Too bad no SPDIF input.
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Interesting comments. I've only heard one ESS DAC (inexpensive - Calyx Coffee) and my impressions there are very similar to yours on this DAC.
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On one hand the ODAC makes me want to hear the pricier ESS Sabre dacs, but on the other even if the HF2/TDA1543 doesn't have the detail I get no compulsion for upgraditis and the ODAC cannot compete in the midrange to my ears. I'm sure others will disagree.
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I just added an external linear power supply to the ODAC and the performance improvement is immediate. No longer sounds strained and now the soundstage is nice and wide (I am using speakers not headphones). Overall 'clinical' quality is still there but certainly could be due to other factors. So power is definitely a factor in my case.
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I just added an external linear power supply to the ODAC
Any details on how to add an external power supply? Which linear supply, how to connect it, etc. is what I'm asking.
Thanks, John
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Any details on how to add an external power supply? Which linear supply, how to connect it, etc. is what I'm asking.
Thanks, John
I used this usb extension and connected with a Jerome 5v linear supply. Unfortunately Herbach no longer sells the Jerome, but any 5v wall wart is a good start. I then solder on the correct adapter size to fit the extension or just solder on the wires directly.
http://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5VUSB&eq=&Tp= (http://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5VUSB&eq=&Tp=)
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The Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy S III interworks with the ODAC:
https://plus.google.com/107354758331405644147/posts/PCaM42irMeU
http://pastebin.com/Jjq4xnT3]http://pastebin.com/Jjq4xnT3
Samsung Galaxy S III > digital audio stream >> USB DAC "ODAC" >> amp "O2" >> headphones
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/1/1d/1d13e78c_IMG_20120618_210615.jpeg)
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Ok so some of the clinical tonality was indeed due to other factors. Some people are also reporting weird results via usb as far as sound quality. That said, with the external supply it does sound very, very good. No giant-killer by ANY means but very good, especially if you are a 'clean freak' regarding sound quality. With just usb power I say don't bother - with the exception of the Dacport LX all usb powered dacs I've heard suffer from the same lightweight, slightly brittle delivery. Too bad those Herbach Jerome power supplies are NLA (luckily I've got a couple), they have come in real handy. Anyhoos $100 well spent.
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i guess any 5v wall adapter can inject good power in it? am i right to guess...
i jsut ordered this dac ....
V
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Got the Dragonfly DAC. Same sound signature but much more refined. No external power needed, sounds great out the box. No digititis, vocal clarity is impressive and pull you in, nice percussive energy. Still lightweight and a little 2 dimensional, but it's about as good as I could ask from a dac given its limitations. I popped it in and stopped analyzing after only a minute, always a good sign. BIG thumbs up. :thumb:
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I am going the opposite direction from high dollar dacs and amps to the 02 Amp and ODAC..
I posted this in the headphone section but its really a cheap and cheerful solution compared to what people are paying for 'top dollar' stuff that to me doesn do that better than these items can do...
"Spent the last few months building my PC music aka Home Theater PC and learned a lot about this area of audio / video and listening to Keith Dont Go right now as I type from inside of JRIVER media center....listening to bit perfect audio via a pair of LCD 2's and Grado 325's...really awsome.
The amp I amp using to drive the LCD's in this environment is a AVA Insight + ....vs my Schitt Lyr. The Dac is a HRT MSii+. (ODAC on order...so we will compare it to this in a few weeks and report back).
So whats the next adventure, well I have been reading alot and I am going to spend the vast sum of $144 for the Objective Headphone amp and another $99 for the Objective DAC....just to see how it compares to what I have...but gosh what I am listening to right now is really close to perfect as I have heard...for cans..
This amp will run on batteries for the start to see how it sounds etc...the dac just came out and is already sold out of the first run.
The design comes from someone called NWavguy, he has a blog and seems to have lots of measurements etc...its a DIY project for a little less as well....but the time to order and build is a pain to me at this time...so instant gratification...
Will post my findings later this month (July) when I get the amp and the new dac...
All the best
Alex
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Look forward to your findings as I think you will be pleasantly surprised how good a few hundred dollars can sound. I don't have ODAC but I've heard tremendously positive things about it. Enjoy!
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Hope this is ok to post here, if not i will move to a seperate O2 amp thread...but seeing how these (2) items are tied closely together thought you would not mind...
The O2Amp: Cost $144, build ...JDALabs. Much cheaper if you build it DIY etc...but for $144 complete with batteries etc....all u need is an AC to AC charger NOT a AC to DC one...(2 batteries included, rechargeable ones).
First impresion, "hey this is Sooooo Small!!" lol
Holy Crap Batman...this amp is a real GEM. Been listening for 3 hrs with Audeze LCD2's and Grado 325i's...
One word 'Superb'...well maybe another 'Excellent'...music is really 'clear' yes thats a bit of the same ole. same ole, like the veil has been lifted, but in this case even my Grados compared to my LCD2's are sounding better than ever before...I am totally amazed as to how good this amp sounda or better yet doesnt sound......
Its really hard to imagine that this little amp can drive my LCD's to very high levels on pure batteries!!
The main reason I bought this as stated before is can anything this inexpensive and small be any good....well it is. You can AB this with many if not all amps and I would bet you would be fooled or hard to guess which one was playing etc...its that good.
Its very neutral and does not get in the way of the music....really shines compared to my Lyr which I really like alot....its more well 'clear' and very, very articulate....
Crap the bass, sounstage, imaging its all there and its more dependant on your headphones, the amp doesnt get in the way..
Feeding it with an asynchronous DAC the HRT Music Streamer ii +.
I will try the O2 Dac at the end of the month, they are all sold out...
The price of admission here is really superb...its a giant killer of an amp for sure....
I dont sell these or make any money on these!!! Yes my opinion may change over time but in this hobby where high dollar stuff is touted as the way to go... its extremely refreshing to see such high quality stuff for such a comparitively low price.
The neat thing is I can take the dac and amp and go from one pc to another in the house or at work and have world class sound on batteries...
Its supposed to play 7-8 hrs on the 2 re-chargeable batteries and run with an AC to AC adapter not AC to DC....if running on the Adapter it charges the batteries whie playing....there is no charging light or any indication of where the battery charge level is, when they run low it shuts down..
No turn on thump, a small turn off thump...not any real issue.
Listening to Dire Straights Live Album Alchemy...while I type...'Superb' ..I like that word!
Ok back to some more critical listening...._
I will report back on the sound quality in more detailed compared to my LYR and other Preamp head section...if your just starting out A $144 dollar amp anda $99 ODAC....ie $250 spend $200--$300 on a set of decent cans and ypu can have world class sound from a PC.....aint technology wonderful..
All the best
Still Smiling!!
Alex
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Another tip for the odac: lose the usb cable, get an adapter. Well definitely toss the stock JDS cable. It increases the digititis. I swapped with a smaller but just as cheap cable to good effect. However in other forums Jkeny has turned me on to replacing a usb cable with an adapter whenever possible. You'd be surprised how much more natural and effortless a usb dac will perform with this extremely inexpensive tweak. My wireworld starlights have been on the bench since using adapters. In this case I used this one from Amazon for the odac and it's night and day vs stock usb cable. Now on par w/ Dragonfly - still not as refined (or 'sweet' as another person put it) but digititis is 99% gone and more importantly it has superior detail/transparency, into i-never-heard-that-before category. This is *without* the external supply btw. On another forum someone suggested maybe my PC has usb power issues, which is certainly possible, but the Dragonfly and other dacs have performed admirably with no problems; but an adapter always improved performance. Regardless, anyone with a usb dac owes it to themselves to use an adapter instead of their usb cable if space permits. You may be surprised.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00825QS88/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00825QS88/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hNXvI%2BDDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
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ok so what your saying is to plug this gadget into the ODAC and plug it into the pc and leave it hanging off the pc....then attach your output cable to the amp....from the out on the DAC with a cable.
So the usb cabe length is now gone but depending on where you pc is etc the cable from the output of the dac to the amp may be long or longer...etc
On the sweetness etc...I have many pieces of audio 'stuff' that seem to add or detract to the sound....I have always wanted gear the is neutral, ie doesnt sound sweet, soft, hard etc....just a piece of straight wire with gain... this little amp with its low output impedance doesnt get in the way at all....garbage in garbage out, good stuff in good stuff out.... I hope the ODAC does as well..from what i here it does...2 more weeks!!
Alex
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ok so what your saying is to plug this gadget into the ODAC and plug it into the pc and leave it hanging off the pc....then attach your output cable to the amp....from the out on the DAC with a cable.
So the usb cabe length is now gone but depending on where you pc is etc the cable from the output of the dac to the amp may be long or longer...etc
Yep. Note that I do not use headphones, I am using the odac to 2 channel speaker setup.
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Cool,
I will compare this dac to my Music Streamer ii +...the winner will the the 2 ch dac, and the looser will be my listen at the other pc dac....lol.
Alex
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Yep. Note that I do not use headphones, I am using the odac to 2 channel speaker setup.
What other dacs have you compared it to?
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What other dacs have you compared it to?
I've compared directly with the Dragonfly, AMB Y2 DAC w/Hiface 2, and the leopold TDA1543 dac w/Hiface 2.
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It will be an interesting comparison for me....the HRT MSii + is an asynchronous dac...the ODAC is not an asynchronous dac.....also with the ODAC there is no S/PDIF at all involved. Its all USB.
The design of the ODAC is to be tranparent and disappear and not add or detract to the sound...this to me is a great design goal...its been measured and details of these measurements are on NWavguy's site...and he has done some comparisons with his $1600 Benchmark DAC1. According to his listening tests both are both audibly transparent. Not wanting to buy into any koolaid, spending a $100 USB Dac to test for myself is a no brainer...and we all like toys!!! (dont we!!??!!)...
I like the design goal of using the least amount of 'stuff' , circuitry etc...to get the job done "well"...if the ODAC performs as well as the O2 Amp...this is going to be sweet for sure...especially for the price....the measurements really look good. lets see how it "doesnt" sound!!
And even if it does 'sound'..at least the specs are there and published to the world not alot of manufacturers air their dirty laundry...if you get my 'drift'....
Alex
:D
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I've compared directly with the Dragonfly, AMB Y2 DAC w/Hiface 2, and the leopold TDA1543 dac w/Hiface 2.
Do you feel that you like it best or is it still on par with the Dragonfly as long as you use the small adapter? I'd like to hear one of these. The measurements really are great.
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Do you feel that you like it best or is it still on par with the Dragonfly as long as you use the small adapter? I'd like to hear one of these. The measurements really are great.
No, the Y2/Hiface 2 combo is preferred due to the openness and depth. As for the DF, it sounds close enough to the tweaked odac to be a matter of taste. To me the odac just doesn't have much depth or dimensionality, that's where it falls flat so to speak. But it is a sin of omission and only evident when i compare back and forth. In all other respects it's very, very impressive.
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To compare you really need to do USB to USB etc....adding other stuff or conversions or adapters etc. muddies the water...as we all know...
I will compare USB to USB. Same source, same PC, same WASPI etc...try to keep things as the same as humanly possible, I will also ask some friends over to help do some 'blind' switching out and see if i can hear any differences without any biased emotions creeping in.....its hard..
Alex
:D
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To compare you really need to do USB to USB etc....adding other stuff or conversions or adapters etc. muddies the water...as we all know...
I will compare USB to USB. Same source, same PC, same WASPI etc...try to keep things as the same as humanly possible, I will also ask some friends over to help do some 'blind' switching out and see if i can hear any differences without any biased emotions creeping in.....its hard..
Alex
:D
I am completely confident in my comparisons. I'm not sure what biased emotions mean and why they would 'creep' in. You are not a replicant. Just have fun and trust yourself.
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Well, I think it's quite possible that any comparison involving one of NwAvGuy's designs has "expectation bias" built in - one way or the other - due to the rather interesting "press". I'm thinking I'll get an O2 - it should be interesting, as in theory, it's completely neutral. See, there I go, setting myself up... :lol:
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Well, I think it's quite possible that any comparison involving one of NwAvGuy's designs has "expectation bias" built in - one way or the other - due to the rather interesting "press". I'm thinking I'll get an O2 - it should be interesting, as in theory, it's completely neutral. See, there I go, setting myself up... :lol:
Ha, yeah that only took two sentences. Sheesh! :P
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For the bucks what have u really got to loose...yup this guy has burnt some bridges and upset some apple carts, but i like the design philosophy and the measurements are good. The OS amp I bought has far exceeded my expectations....so i hope the dac does as well..
What i was getting at about bias etc...when "I" buy something its usually after 9,999 hours of researching and heck after wasting all that time I want it to sound good or better that what i have etc...I think I can convince myself of my purchase and it indeed it sounds better....
This time around I decided to be more objective...and do some AB testing etc..
With my Lyr Amp which i like a lot, compared to the O2 Amp I am finding that the O2 Amp is much clearer etc...and I dont like that...why because it costs more!! lol...
So all that time researching, reading,rolling tubes only to find this "objective' device outperform my 'favorite' in specs but more importantly in sound quality is un-settling...how can something so small and inexpensive be so good!!!
Aint technology grand!!
Alex
:D
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The ODAC has shipped!!! Just a few days away from testing!!!
Alex
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The ODAC has shipped!!! Just a few days away from testing!!!
Alex
I'im very much looking forward to your opinion. Please be sure to let us know all the details. :thumb:
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Well its here!!
I will report later on the sound and comparison to my HRT MSii+...
Your looking at $144 (amp) +$99 (Odac) and $20 for cables and a connector for the Odac
audio out......
This was all obtained via JDSLabs.
Alex
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65940)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65941)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65945)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65947)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65942)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65937)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65938)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65943)
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I received mine today also.
I've hooked it up to my Windows/JRiver computer output. From there it goes (through a 3.5mm jack>RCA converter into my Denon receiver.
I've only listened to it briefly but it does seem to be pretty decent - albeit my system isn't that great. I'll definitely write more when I get a better set of speakers later this month - and probably sooner than that.
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Yes I have had it running for a few hours and listening to my Grados and LCD2's...and a little back and forth with the HRT MSii+.
I use JRiver as well. Win 7 Pro and have several pc's with it loaded on so I can listen to the cans in different locations.
Listening to Perfect from Alanis Morissette Jagged Little Pill....WOW....
I am going to build a second O2 amp and will package the Odac in an enclosure from X-Box enclosure. I will put RCA connectors on the back so I can install it into the 2 ch system via the VanAlstine preamp.
Will do a more thorough review after I have listened more over a wider variety of material...so far my first impression is....this is really something special...the combination for the price is unmatched as far as I can see..
Alex
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Well so far after many changes between the HRT MSii+ for $350 and the ODAC for $99....I can not discernably tell a difference between the two...at times I think I can and it gets lost in the switching etc...
I am getting really fast selecting between the dacs in Win7..playback etc...and playing 20 sec or so of the same track listening of certain detail or quality or musicality of a drum beat...or cymbals etc...
They both are good and would be happy with either one so far.
The combination of the O2 amp and the Odac is approx $250 +/- will run on pure DC has virtually indiscernable THD, IM and other measurements that put them outside of our human ear transducers....so you get to hear what your source sounds like and what your cans sound like.
Its like having a miniature reference amp and dac....for a very affordable price.
Gosh the with really good source material the quality of sound is indeed breathtaking..my Grados never sounded so good the LCD2's sound marvelous as well but the 2 are very much different.
So we will put the ODAC in a box and try it with my 2 ch system next and do the same comparisons....
Probably will get the same results, ie both dacs being really good.
From a headphone perspective I would highly recommend this combination for anyone that is looking for an affordable reference system to play computer music in their cans....really stellar.
Later
Alex
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Here is the ODAC in a case with RCA outs and the mini jack up front....just completed this one...
Works very well, and I will now try it in the 2 ch rig....
Next project is to build an AC only desktop with the O2 amp and ODAC in the same box..
Alex
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66498)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66499)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66500)
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Here is the ODAC in a case with RCA outs and the mini jack up front....just completed this one...
Works very well, and I will now try it in the 2 ch rig....
Next project is to build an AC only desktop with the O2 amp and ODAC in the same box..
Alex
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66498)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66499)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66500)
Alex,
That looks great. :thumb:
(But wasn't there something on the JDS Labs site that showed how to attached the DAC to the amp into one small package?)
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charmerci...
Thanks and hello again.
Yes you can buy it in one box from them or do it yourself.
If you do it by yourself you can remove the batteries and mount the ODAC where the batteries were located. They use some small plastic or nylon screws as standoffs...this allows the ODAC to fit in the original O2 amp case...but you loose the pure DC battery mode if thats important to you.
There is no room this way for RCA jacks. and the USB input is on the back of the amp as well as the mini-jack...a little awkward.
I am building a O2amp and will buy another ODAC and put them in a larger enclosure with batteries and AC as well and RCA jacks and a larger headphone jack...
All the best
Alex
:D
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I am building a O2amp and will buy another ODAC and put them in a larger enclosure with batteries and AC as well and RCA jacks and a larger headphone jack...
Well, consider me informed!
I'm sure you're new amp-dac box will look cool also. :thumb:
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I could not be happier with my ODAC. I ended up purchasing another one to build into the ODA when it's released!
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My ODAC is due to arrive next week from Canada. Looking forward to it. :thumb:
I purchased from http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/audio-poutine/
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Would love to hear your impressions ... I am getting interested in the desktop version
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I just finished integrating my second ODAC into a box with the O2 amp I just built....easy to wire up, cut 2 traces on the bottom on the 02 amp board.
I got the box, and endplates from JDS Labs...mounted the ODAC per the instructions without any batteries, so this desktop amp is AC only.
I ordered a AC to AC adapter with a higher voltage/current capability.
Worked first time, sounds great.
So we have one with batteries that I can move around and utilize the separate cased ODAC or use my HRT MSii+ USB DAC...and the desktop version which is just
for cans.
After listening to this one last night for 30 minutes or so...the realization on NOT having to spend mega-bucks for worked class transparent sound once again.
There is no fiddling with tubes, no real warm up...just turn it on and listen....
Just Marvelous!
Alex
:thumb:
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I ordered a AC to AC adapter with a higher voltage/current capability.
This is only for the combo right? The ODAC is buss powered. Yes?
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Would love to have a portable dac/amp battery powered combo
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The ODAC only requires USB power.
The AC to AC adapter supplies the power to the O2 amp...the amps AC inputs can be anywhere from 14 to 20 VAC.
From Nwavguy:
"The transformer output can be anywhere from 14 VAC to 20 VAC and at least 200 mA. Don’t use more than 20 VAC or less than 14 VAC
(except for the 12 VAC transformers listed in the parts list). Do not try to use a DC adapter."
The main differnce in the 2 setups i have is the intergrated one has a lot less wiring between the Dac and the amp...just 4 inches of wire.
The external dacs have 1-3 feet of cable, dont know if that really matters in an audible way or not...
I have gone back and forth, with only batteries, the integrated one the non-integrated setup....all sound great to me.
Saisunil...dong a portable dac/amp would not be that hard to do. U can cram it into the existing O2 amp box with batteries but its tight...
It would be easier to do with the next larger size box..even with RCA's if you want them...
Alex
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Thanks. :thumb:
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I've recently built a 5v SSLV (Salas Shunt Low Voltage) power supply for the ODAC, replacing the linear PS I have been using. The SSLV brings out a realism and nuance that I did not think was possible from this dac. If you have any basic soldering
skills I can't recommend it enough. Big step up. The build is pretty simple, the hardest part being figuring out heatsinking and getting the exact voltage needed. Starter kits and boards are available from TeaBag as well. Also, the voltage is adjustable so it can be repurposed for another project (heat being the real limiting factor).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/tea-bag/741-bib-minikits.html
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66982)
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I didn't realize that some people were not using the USB power. :scratch:
What does NwAvGuy say about this? Measurements are criticle as then it's no longer an ODAC. :wink:
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I didn't realize that some people were not using the USB power. :scratch:
What does NwAvGuy say about this? Measurements are criticle as then it's no longer an ODAC. :wink:
Well *I'm* not and I think I am the only one. I was not impressed with usb power but then I'm using it for 2 channel and most people aren't which I think makes for a very different experience. as for NwAvGuy. Ha. Yeah. That's his problem. Onwards and upwards.
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Nice Supply....however I don't really think this will really make any real world difference in what we can hear in our cans.
If you look at the design and the real world analytical measurements nvawguy has posted and have been confirmed there is no real need for more power than can be provided from a a good functional working USB port...you only need 125 millamps of current!
You don't need 10 amps.
If you really hear sonic approvements with this supply, my hats off to you....but being the analytical guy I am I challenge you to do a blind test with someone else switching the power supplies , do this 10 times , record your 'honest' results...
All the best
Alex
:deadhorse:
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Well *I'm* not and I think I am the only one. I was not impressed with usb power but then I'm using it for 2 channel and most people aren't which I think makes for a very different experience. as for NwAvGuy. Ha. Yeah. That's his problem. Onwards and upwards.
I'll be using it for 2ch as well. I have a Metric Halo LIO-8 currently so I'm curious....
I guess what I'm saying is pretty much what Alex said. If the deisgner that has made the ODAC (Objective)DAC and proved that it doesn't *need* and external power supply then why not try to have measurements done to show what you might be hearing?
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Nice Supply....however I don't really think this will really make any real world difference in what we can hear in our cans.
If you look at the design and the real world analytical measurements nvawguy has posted and have been confirmed there is no real need for more power than can be provided from a a good functional working USB port...you only need 125 millamps of current!
You don't need 10 amps.
If you really hear sonic approvements with this supply, my hats off to you....but being the analytical guy I am I challenge you to do a blind test with someone else switching the power supplies , do this 10 times , record your 'honest' results...
All the best
Alex
:deadhorse:
A real blind test that stands up to scrutiny involves more than a buddy and a blindfold.
I don't know where 10 amps came from. You control the current on the SSLV.
For all NwAvGuys efforts and ranting, Gordon Rankin came out with the DragonFly which sounds the same if not better -
and you don't want to know his view on objectivity or, god forbid, usb cables. Hey maybe he cribbed off NwAvGuy. :lol:
The sonic improvement I hear is beyond doubt, whether anyone wants to hear for themselves is up to them.
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I'll be using it for 2ch as well. I have a Metric Halo LIO-8 currently so I'm curious....
I guess what I'm saying is pretty much what Alex said. If the deisgner that has made the ODAC (Objective)DAC and proved that it doesn't *need* and external power supply then why not try to have measurements done to show what you might be hearing?
Are you going to pay for the measurement equipment? Or are you offering to do the measurements (which is another great vague word like 'science' - what exactly are the specifics? What are we looking for? What do we need to accomplish that?)
Or is all this available from the blind test kit on Amazon, because I do have Prime shipping.
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In High end audio - power supply is everything - IMO, it should benefit from better than usb power ...
On the other hand - dragonfly (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/audioquest-dragonfly-24-96-asynchronous-usb-dac-headphone-amp-12353/) is looking good for a usb powered - tiny dac/headphone amp ... :thumb:
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There ya go...."it should" but not necessarily true....the circuit will only draw what it needs and 125 ma at 5 volts +/- % is all it needs...or it wouldnt be doing as well as it is..
Your welcome to tack on a"BIG" power supply but this unit can get what it needs to be "beyond" inaudibility already...and any improvements to the already published specs...
to put any of these measurements even further into the inaudible range...well ok....spend you money wisely.
The whole idea and excercise was to do the best with the least...and its really as good as stuff costing a whole lot more bucks...
I finally have my USB cable hacked and will run some tests on the actual current draw....and voltage drop on a few pcs..
All the best
Alex
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In High end audio - power supply is everything - IMO, it should benefit from better than usb power ...
On the other hand - dragonfly (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/audioquest-dragonfly-24-96-asynchronous-usb-dac-headphone-amp-12353/) is looking good for a usb powered - tiny dac/headphone amp ... :thumb:
I agree and have heard the changes in sq in different components re: power supplies too many times.
I also want to add that I don't have a problem with the advice to validate what I hear with analysis but I do have a problem when it suggests
easy or simple to conduct procedure(s) to do so.
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There ya go...."it should" but not necessarily true....the circuit will only draw what it needs and 125 ma at 5 volts +/- % is all it needs...or it wouldnt be doing as well as it is..
Your welcome to tack on a"BIG" power supply but this unit can get what it needs to be "beyond" inaudibility already...and any improvements to the already published specs...
to put any of these measurements even further into the inaudible range...well ok....spend you money wisely.
The whole idea and excercise was to do the best with the least...and its really as good as stuff costing a whole lot more bucks...
I finally have my USB cable hacked and will run some tests on the actual current draw....and voltage drop on a few pcs..
All the best
Alex
Well there you go. I guess we can all call it a day. It's nice not to have to think for myself. Outro.
-
Hey wushuliu...
I never said it was easy...and I often in the past think things sound different with different stuff or changes...I have a few external power supplies
that I bought for trying to see if the "better', "bigger" supplies really made any differences in what i was hearing..
Even have a large 15 amp Lambda DC supply I have used.
The thing with your supply is not matter how good it is or how well its filtered etc...its still connected to and AC power source..and AC is well not a
friend of DC circuits when it comes to power, not signal.
The 02 on batteries takes all that out of the equation...
I would like to and ought to try running the ODAC on batteries....and comare with the USB power ports I am using to see if I can really hear any
differences...will have to get some friends over and see what happens...
All the best
Alex
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I found this on Nwavguys blog....its his list of things that arent really needed to provide world class transparent Dac:
"NO SNAKE OIL REQUIRED: Many audiophiles want to believe more elaborate or exotic DACs offer higher fidelity. The ODAC demonstrates you do NOT need any of these for 100% transparent performance:
Asynchronous USB
UAC2 (USB Audio Class 2) Support
Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion (ASRC),
Minimum Phase Filtering (no pre-ringing)
Non-oversampling NOS DAC chips
Dual DAC chips
Balanced Outputs
Vacuum Tube Stages
Elaborate and/or High Current Power Supplies
THE PROOF: I can confidently say none of the above are required for DAC audio nirvana—i.e. having your DAC disappear from the signal chain. Some of the above, like NOS designs and tubes, degrade fidelity. I’m confident because detailed measurements and blind listening tests verify the ODAC’s real world performance. I’ve even tried several different PCs and the ODAC’s performance is relatively consistent between them. So while some of the above might improve a few measurements, if they don’t improve the sound, it’s like taking 4 pills to get rid of your headache when 2 do the job nicely. Once the headache is no longer perceptible, more pain reliever doesn’t help anything. I encourage others to compare the ODAC blind against other DACs, at any price, that measure reasonably well."
Its not that I am saying dont build or try a really, nice, clean DC supply for the ODAC....thats the DIY spirit for sure....its
just the point is you can have really great DAC performance with the 5 volts from many pcs....as good or bad as it is....
All the best
Alex
-
I've since become more deluded and made more mods to the odac this time replacing some of the caps, based on observations made by others who have heard the odac (and had the same criticisms as I) as well as other builds based on the same chip (there were at least 2 other people doing their own design at the same time as NwAvGuy on diyaudio) and frankly at this point it does not sound anything like stock at all. We can do the measurement dance all day but in the end I have made all these changes, I have done the comparisons for myself and there is no way
on God's green earth anyone would prefer the stock performance over what I am hearing now. It is a different dac in sound quality altogether. I wish I had known about the other diy builds before, I would have gone
with those.
I understand your perspective and that's fine, I offer my experience for the curious. NwAvGuy's POV is the same found on every forum at least one a week regarding every component in audio from dac to speakers to amps to cables to wine so if my tinkering means no birthday card from NwAvGuy - oh well. Not even going to bother addressing his quote because then this thread will just deteriorate and I will have to go back to my hamster wheel avatar. :lol:
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I wish I had known about the other diy builds before, I would have gone
with those.
What other build would you have gone with? Just curious. I have the EE minimax and Oppo 83-SE and they sound very similar to my ears. I am curious how a completely different take would compare.
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There was a group buy that ended a couple months ago. It is spdif only however. Hopefully there will be another group buy since this one was
successful. They may add usb functionality.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/211201-es9023-wm8804-s-pdif-dac-group-buy.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/211201-es9023-wm8804-s-pdif-dac-group-buy.html)
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I've since become more deluded and made more mods to the odac this time replacing some of the caps, based on observations made by others who have heard the odac (and had the same criticisms as I) as well as other builds based on the same chip (there were at least 2 other people doing their own design at the same time as NwAvGuy on diyaudio) and frankly at this point it does not sound anything like stock at all. We can do the measurement dance all day but in the end I have made all these changes, I have done the comparisons for myself and there is no way
on God's green earth anyone would prefer the stock performance over what I am hearing now. It is a different dac in sound quality altogether. I wish I had known about the other diy builds before, I would have gone
with those.
I understand your perspective and that's fine, I offer my experience for the curious. NwAvGuy's POV is the same found on every forum at least one a week regarding every component in audio from dac to speakers to amps to cables to wine so if my tinkering means no birthday card from NwAvGuy - oh well. Not even going to bother addressing his quote because then this thread will just deteriorate and I will have to go back to my hamster wheel avatar. :lol:
Thanks for the insight. Can you share more info on your power supply and other mods?
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Just unpacked it and hooked it up. :o
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67097)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67098)
Purchased from Audio Poutine in Canada. RCA & 3.5mm jacks. :thumb:
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Also, Pure Music Hog / Integer mode work fine too. :thumb:
What USB cable do you guys use? I'm using my camera DL cable now. :D
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Just unpacked it and hooked it up. :o
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67097)
Nice. How's everything so far? i've heard is on par with the HRT streamer II+
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i've heard is on par with the HRT streamer II+
I've never heard one of them.
-
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66500)
Why do you have the L&R cables swapped? :scratch:
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It just the colored washers that should be switched. Red is right!
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Thanks for the insight. Can you share more info on your power supply and other mods?
The power supply is an offshoot of several shunt regulated designs by Salas over at diyaudio, including the DCB1 buffer I've already covered last year
in the Lab. The guide goes into greater detail regarding purpose and benefits:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwkE0NoQW99QbFVtS2hsZ0xTWUNubU8tcXc2eHJnQQ/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwkE0NoQW99QbFVtS2hsZ0xTWUNubU8tcXc2eHJnQQ/edit)
Surprisingly simple to build. Mine uses a whopping 15v 50w transformer providing 300mA current for the ODAC. As for the ODAC mods I took note of other builds using same value film caps by the outputs and am currently playing with larger and smaller values by the regulators and elsewhere.
No question for the money, stock, it is a great dac.
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Cool, enjoy reading about your 'upgrades' and 'pioneering' with your stuff.
The red white cables in the pix were switched, and if you just turn the box over it changes !!
I did not have any little rubber feet on it in that stage...just playing around....
I do have a HRT MSii + and I had a HRT MSii before that as well.
They are both asynchronous dacs made by HRT Technologies.
When I was contemplating even thinking of digital PC music and a source I did the usual reading etc...and compairing the specs, argument's and discussions and this particular USB Dac perked my intrest. I forget the persons name right now but had several email discussions and a phone call or two and was impressed by them.
Guess we tend to buy or try stuff from people we like or have the same technological viewpoints.
I have gone back and forth many times between the ODAC and the MSii+ and I can not hear any real world differences. The only discernable differences is $99 vs $350. Name your poison. LOL.
The ODAC requires 125 ma. The HRT MSii requires 200ma and the HRT MSii+ requires 400ma.
When you start playing around with circuit components I no doubt that you will affect the sonic qualites of the device. It can be good or bad or somewhere in between. If you hear "better" sounding stuff that's great..
but again....this $99 ODAC was designed by a person that spent many, many hours mucking around with parts, resistors, caps and the actual design layout for the parts, to fit in a small enclosure and also still have world class specs that would not get in the way of the source etc...its good to know that to me. Doing this experimentation and taking measurements that can affect the things that we can hear is a good thing instead of guessing.
Ok back to the listening!
All the best
Alex
:D
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Thanks. I think I've taken this topic as far as it can go. Enjoy the Odac. I'm sure we can all agree it's great to get such
bang for the buck these days.
w
Cool, enjoy reading about your 'upgrades' and 'pioneering' with your stuff.
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Wishuliu,
Cool beans...
Been sitting here for an hour now with (2) O2 amps and (2) Different DACS, one is the ODAC and the other is the HRT MSii+.
One thing I have noticed and several times before is that even though I can switch back and forth really fast...there is some time to adjust the levels to match the output of the ODAC and the HRT which are very different. The HRT is hotter or rather larger and if not matched appears to blow away the ODAC...
But after careful listening...yes subjectively its very hard to pick one out over another....they both are really stellar...listening to demo cds. Duende, Morph the Cat and all those need tracks we use for making us smile.
Sure wish we lived closer etc would really like to here your stuff over a beer or two!!
All the best
Alex
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O2 amp on the left has the HRT MSii+ connected to it....running on Pure DC Batteries....the redbox is an ODAC in seperate enclosure...the O2 amp on the right is the integrated amp and ODAC running on a higher voltage 400 ma ac to ac adpater.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67109)
[/img]
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Went back to my Schiit Lyr with Duende etc...its sounds very muffled or not as clear as the O2 and ODAC combo with the HRT or the ODAC.
Seems like there is more distortion or warmth with the LYR, it really can drive the LCD2's but the O2 is (I hate to say this...) is that much better to me...
Looks like I will be selling my Lyr...
Alex
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JT, looks great. Please keep us posted. Is the one you picked up different than the JDS Labs version?
Is anyone using the ODAC with a Squeezebox Touch? I'm thinking of picking one up to mess around with. Thanks!
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Is the one you picked up different than the JDS Labs version?
The case is a little different but sonically it should be the same.
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I just got done doing a little experiment with the ODAC seeing how some folks seem to think they are having issue with the USB power supply in PCs etc...
I have heard that the USB power supply in some pcs are less than stellar, whatever that means.
Being an analytical guy I cut up some USB cables to allow for an ammeter and a voltmeter so I could see and monitor the current and voltage of what an ODAC would actually draw,
Well the results are:
ODAC draws 50.5 milliamps of current connected, doesnt matter if its connected to a amp or not. I tested this as well.
The voltage was 5.04 vdc, and after the ODAC was connected the voltage was 5.04 vdc.
The USB power supply in this old tired gateway desktop was not phased in the least with this minimal load.
The USB 2.0 spec is 100ma per unit up to 5 units for 500ma total.
The ODAC is not even close to this as a load.
So there ya go...now go get your super duper external power supply, but its NOT needed!!!
The truth is in the pudding!
Now anyone want some slightly cut up USB cables???
:thumb:
Alex
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Please add an IMO to your statement. You are assuming that what you are analysing is the culprit; culprit for what you have not made clear - and you certainly did not make much effort to articulate the issues others have expressed with the dac in detail to at least some context with the exception of taking an underhanded stab at my previously shared efforts with power supply.
If you're going to go around making declarations at least lay out the argument in detail so we can all understand exactly what is being resolved, otherwise you are just preaching to choir.
If you don't like the fact that I recommend anyone run to build an external power supply because it sounds a hell of a lot better, too bad.
However I believe you stated earlier that doing so runs counter to the premise of the ODAC and with that I agree. I should never have gone anywhere near the thing. Just too much science for me. And way too much conversation.
I just got done doing a little experiment with the ODAC seeing how some folks seem to think they are having issue with the USB power supply in PCs etc...
I have heard that the USB power supply in some pcs are less than stellar, whatever that means.
Being an analytical guy I cut up some USB cables to allow for an ammeter and a voltmeter so I could see and monitor the current and voltage of what an ODAC would actually draw,
Well the results are:
ODAC draws 50.5 milliamps of current connected, doesnt matter if its connected to a amp or not. I tested this as well.
The voltage was 5.04 vdc, and after the ODAC was connected the voltage was 5.04 vdc.
The USB power supply in this old tired gateway desktop was not phased in the least with this minimal load.
The USB 2.0 spec is 100ma per unit up to 5 units for 500ma total.
The ODAC is not even close to this as a load.
So there ya go...now go get your super duper external power supply, but its NOT needed!!!
The truth is in the pudding!
Now anyone want some slightly cut up USB cables???
:thumb:
Alex
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I would say that Alex's post is pretty clear and factual and in keeping with the ODAC design philosophy and the sub-forums goal, so no "IMO statement" is required.
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I would say that Alex's post is pretty clear and factual and in keeping with the ODAC design philosophy and the sub-forums goal, so no "IMO statement" is required.
ya - everything except where he says:
"...So there ya go...now go get your super duper external power supply, but its NOT needed!!!..."
:wink:
which is the most important part... imo... 8)
the fact is, when it comes to power supplies, audible results have been known to occur in multiple instances, where measurements don't indicate why. i know it has made differences in my experience, both w/my dac and w/my turntable.
doug s.
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I think both arguments are well presented so far. I haven't heard the unit in either form so I couldn't comment directly. However I do lean toward wushuliu's argument as I've invariably heard an improvement in DAC's when going to a beefier power supply, and I've never heard of any component anywhere not benefiting from better power supply regulation, unless we're talking battery power which actually is a better form of power supply regulation. On the other hand adydula presents clear evidence that USB power in this case is more than sufficient. Additionally the argument that the philosophy of the ODAC is a USB powered minimalist design carries a fair amount of weight on the C&C circle. I'm not clear if adydula has listened to this DAC with with beefier power supplies or not, he mentions he has them, not sure if they've been hooked up here? Anyway, the respectful exchange of ideas and information is a real benefit to all AC'ers, let's keep it that way.
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Oh you had to show up LIR, didn't you. I had a nice hamster wheel reply all set to go. I just want it noted that I backed away nicely from the topic earlier so that the thread could move on.
-
On the other hand adydula presents clear evidence that USB power in this case is more than sufficient.
Um... I don't think it's a question of whether USB will supply enough current for an ODAC...
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Um... I don't think it's a question of whether USB will supply enough current for an ODAC...
+1. which is why i posted that the "imo" is necessary for the most important part of alex's post - where he said upgraded external power supply isn't needed. 8)
doug s.
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Wow!!!
Such excitement....on such a low current draw device.
Hey guys enough of the BS.
If I offended anyone, my apologies.
The short of my posts were just to point out that the ODAC draws 50 ma of current.
This is way within the capabilities of the USB 2.0 spec.
If you think that using a larger capacity power supply makes a real difference then hey spend your money and enjoy!
When people state that they hear HUGE differences by doing things like this I want to know if your really hearing differences that really matter.
If you tell others to go out and get a bigger supply and its not really needed when the USB supply will provide great sound and meet all the specs
that the designer has set....well I really wonder what your objectively hearing.
Its not that your a bad guy for indicating this....its my analytical engineering background that challenges these claims.
Heck it might be really true...but I honestly doubt it.
and yes I have a box of all kinds of DC wal-worts and a wonderful Lamba DC supply that can source mega-current if needed.
The fact remains that for the ODAC to operate and meet its design specs...you do not need anything more than a USB power supply can provide as
long as it meets the USB 2.0 specs. No IMO here.
The IMO part is hey try a nice big external supply and it gets even better....again I can respect this.
Happy Saturday!!
Time for a beer!!
All the best
Alex
:D
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Um... I don't think it's a question of whether USB will supply enough current for an ODAC...
Well, that's why you're the engineer and I'm not. :D Understanding that I'm among the great unwashed laymen, I thought that's what adydula was pointing out, that you don't need anymore than USB power for the ODAC and anything more will have no effect on SQ. As always on the web one has to point out that I'm asking a serious question and not making a sarcastic jab, but please expand, what is the question?
Oh, and adydula posted while I was writing this. I think you guys have been pretty good about explaining your positions, which are polar opposites, while still being personally respectful of each other. So no need for anyone to bow out or apologize.
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Just some more food for thought...
When the O2 amp and the ODAC came out, and well before.... the designer went thru great pains to explain and tell the world what he was trying to do.
You can read all this on his blog.
It was not very long before many folks with all good intentions started to "make it better".
(yes this was mostly with the amp, not the dac).
Over on the DIY audio forum there are a ton of mod's for the amp, from a very well respected person, which I will not name here...
and most all if not all of his mods are prefaced by "it doesnt really add to the performance of the unit" but I had to muck with it....
The spirit of DIY is alive and well....and this is a good thing...
Its just the way it is, is pretty good too...
Alex
:D
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Letitroll98..
Thanks!!
Being an engineer....Is hard at times, it seems we trust nothing by facts, charts and graphs.... :duh:
When I finally get lost in the music I know the design is right!!
All the best
Alex
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to reiterate, i will simply quote johnr:
"Um... I don't think it's a question of whether USB will supply enough current for an ODAC..."
i don't think anyone is disputing whether or not the usb will supply enough current. it is correct that no "imo" is needed for this issue. what is incorrect - imo - is that adequate current is all that affects the sonic end result.
i can tell you unequivocally that my art di/o dac was sonically improved w/a different p/s, even tho the stock unit supplied more than ample current. i can tell you unequivocally that my oracle delphi turntable was sonically improved when i upgraded its motor to an origin-live motor, even tho the stock unit supplied more than ample current. and then it was further improved when i upgraded the o-l's p/s to a hewlett-packard lab grade p/s, even tho the o-l's stock unit supplied more than ample current.
ymmv,
doug s.
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@ ady - I believe you set up a strawman in the earlier post with the goal being to smack down my mentioning my super duper martin lawrence in a fat suit power supply:
the mentioning of people having technical issues with the usb power supply is unclear. I certainly made no such declaration here, only that I was not satisfied with the sound quality and have read others having similar experiences. I have only read one person specifically question whether the odac received enough power and that was rjm in his blog on diyaudio - and I don't think I mentioned that here either, so if there other specific mentions to usb power supply criticisms you are addressing it would be great if you clarified what those are.
Therefore measuring the current and voltage served no purpose. The ODAC performs within specs. Okay. Again, was this a question that was raised earlier? Has there been any disputation concerning whether it met specifications? I don't recall any such direct questions in this thread; if there are other previously mentioned forums or posts regarding this that I am not aware please share.
So the end result - a super duper big gulp power supply which by the way has only been mentioned/utilized by one person so far - is not needed. Great pains were made to emphasize that part and I have a problem seeing how you got there wihout implying that I (and others or just me?) found the stock odac to be potentially defective or ill-designed and receiving insufficient power, etc.
You're an analytical guy. I get that. Your position is clear. Get that too. But you make your argument and do your measurements based
on a statement or premise that was never made.
Just some more food for thought...
When the O2 amp and the ODAC came out, and well before.... the designer went thru great pains to explain and tell the world what he was trying to do.
You can read all this on his blog.
It was not very long before many folks with all good intentions started to "make it better".
(yes this was mostly with the amp, not the dac).
Over on the DIY audio forum there are a ton of mod's for the amp, from a very well respected person, which I will not name here...
and most all if not all of his mods are prefaced by "it doesnt really add to the performance of the unit" but I had to muck with it....
The spirit of DIY is alive and well....and this is a good thing...
Its just the way it is, is pretty good too...
Alex
:D
-
Actually I have heard more than one person indicate they thought that had issue with the ODAC due to the USB power supplied by a PC.
So there are 2 areas of the ODAC and power that I have read about that an external supply might help, fix or whatever:
1. Various poppng or ticking or what one person indicated like hearting random fireworks going off during complex passages. (this particlar situation the person is very much in suspect of the design etc..).
2. The other issue being just replacing the supply with a 'better' supply will give your better sound?
In my particular experience with only (2) ODACS, I have not experienced ANY issues at all, zip, zero, nada....its just been all around excellent performance and with A/B testing indiscernable with my HRT MSii+ USB DAC.
The real point is to date this little $99 dac has performed admirably and provides many of us that cant or will not send thousand of dollars on a dac....stellar perfromance.
Alex
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As always on the web one has to point out that I'm asking a serious question and not making a sarcastic jab, but please expand, what is the question?
Power supplies are circuits, and like other circuits, can be fairly complex things. Other than the basic specification of voltage and maximum current, they have specs like noise, output impedance, and frequency response. That a supply provides enough current at the specified voltage is necessary, like saying, say, that an amplifier needs to provide 100 W into an 8 ohm load. But it's far from the whole story.
-
Dont know if anyone here is interested but you can actually explore the schematic of the ODAC here from a link on this site:
http://www.yoyodyneconsulting.ca/pages/ODAC.html
Its amazing on how the designer and this vendor is so open as to publish the schematics for all the world to see.
Not many vendors are willing to do this.
I copied these specs from this site:
•Frequency Response: +/- 0.1 dB (10 hz - 19 Khz 24/44)
•THD+N 100 hz 0 dBFS: 0.0029%
•THD+N 20 hz -1 dBFS: 0.003%
•THD+N 10 Khz -1 dBFS: 0.003%
•IMD CCIF 19/20 Khz -3 dBFS: 0.0011%
•IMD SMPTE -1 dBFS: 0.0004%
•Noise A-Weighted dBu 24/44: --102.8 dBu
•Dynamic Range: > 111 dB A-Weighted
•Linearity Error -90 dBFS 24/44: 0.0 dB
•Crosstalk 0 dBFS Line Out 100K: --93.5 dB
•USB Jitter 11025 hz J-test 24/44: Excellent
•Maximum Output Line Out 100K: 2.0 Vrms
•Distortion: < 0.005%
•PCB Dimensions: 49.0 x 58.0 mm
For such a dac to deliver this type of performance from USB power is, well amazing!
I would ask you which one of these specs is made "better" by using a "better" DC power supply?
All the best
Alex
:D
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I would ask you which one of these specs is made "better" by using a "better" DC power supply?
I would ask you what you thought you were proving with your voltage and current measurement earlier?
-
Power supplies are circuits, and like other circuits, can be fairly complex things. Other than the basic specification of voltage and maximum current, they have specs like noise, output impedance, and frequency response. That a supply provides enough current at the specified voltage is necessary, like saying, say, that an amplifier needs to provide 100 W into an 8 ohm load. But it's far from the whole story.
Thanks John.
-
John,
This is a thread on the ODAC...and in the course of reading items around the net I have run into a few concerned persons
that have some issues with what they think might be USB power related.
There is a lot of opinions etc and very little real facts....
Being an engineer and working with PC development since 1981 or so....I am familiar with the specs and what USB implementations
over the years are.
So I thought I would share the actual current that the an ODAC draws...when attached to a USB Buss on a PC.
The actual current is rather low with what most USB implementations can "source" if implemented to the spec.
Not trying to prove anything, just share real hard world facts and figures.
How, not by trusting someone, but by actually measuring it.
I the few cases I know about the issues seem to be related to having many devices connected to the USB ports....and getting close to
or over the 500ma limits....not really due to the quality of the DC voltage itself.
This is why I have stated in the past that I only have my USB dac attached on my HTPC because I know that there are limits and I dont want to even go there...
There may be some ripple in the Vcc of PC USB power, and I have not measured that with a scope....but take a look at the schematics and there
are inductors in the circuit to help out here....
In the case where a person replaces a the USB power supply with a 500 ma limit, with one that is 2 amps etc well that would fix any total power
requirements....but be careful on how you connect this and how much stuff is attached.
So the point once again kind sir of the current and voltage measurement I provided....is that the ODAC can run nicely on present day USB power and provide world class
performance that rivals other dacs at a price most of us can afford.....
All the best
Alex
:D
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Again, no one here has discussed pops, ticks or declared the usb power to be insufficient to meet performance specifications. What has been discussed and only by me is that I perceived *improved* sound quality with the external supply. Two separate things altogether. You keep taking one premise and trying to apply to another one altogether not because they are related but because you are personally opposed to it. So maybe your posts are best placed on those forums where there is an actual discussion of odac issues that may be power related.
There is really nowhere for this conversation to go (see pic) until someone else also tries an external power supply and hear for themselves to add another subjective data point. or somebody funds my double blind testing/measurement research (please allocate enough for lots of deep dish pizza).
m'kay, done with this, 'cause somebody's getting tired:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67874)
John,
This is a thread on the ODAC...and in the course of reading items around the net I have run into a few concerned persons
that have some issues with what they think might be USB power related.
There is a lot of opinions etc and very little real facts....
Being an engineer and working with PC development since 1981 or so....I am familiar with the specs and what USB implementations
over the years are.
So I thought I would share the actual current that the an ODAC draws...when attached to a USB Buss on a PC.
The actual current is rather low with what most USB implementations can "source" if implemented to the spec.
Not trying to prove anything, just share real hard world facts and figures.
How, not by trusting someone, but by actually measuring it.
I the few cases I know about the issues seem to be related to having many devices connected to the USB ports....and getting close to
or over the 500ma limits....not really due to the quality of the DC voltage itself.
This is why I have stated in the past that I only have my USB dac attached on my HTPC because I know that there are limits and I dont want to even go there...
There may be some ripple in the Vcc of PC USB power, and I have not measured that with a scope....but take a look at the schematics and there
are inductors in the circuit to help out here....
In the case where a person replaces a the USB power supply with a 500 ma limit, with one that is 2 amps etc well that would fix any total power
requirements....but be careful on how you connect this and how much stuff is attached.
So the point once again kind sir of the current and voltage measurement I provided....is that the ODAC can run nicely on present day USB power and provide world class
performance that rivals other dacs at a price most of us can afford.....
All the best
Alex
:D
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So the point once again kind sir of the current and voltage measurement I provided....is that the ODAC can run nicely on present day USB power and provide world class
performance that rivals other dacs at a price most of us can afford.....
Hi Alex, thanks for responding and I'm sorry I was being a little snarky, that was at 1:30 am for me...
I have no issue with the ODAC. I don't have one, but I am thinking of getting one, simply because its measurements are well-documented and would serve as a point of reference. That is: I can't afford to buy proper test gear, so comparing an ODAC measured with a cheap soundcard, with ODAC measurements as supplied by NwAvGuy, would help confirm that I'm in the ballpark with my own measurements.
It's also possible that I will prefer the ODAC sonically to what I have here already. And it's possible that I may not. In either case, it will be interesting to see if I can find a correlation between what I can measure, with what I can hear. Because this is where threads like this (the direction it has taken anyway) always fall apart. Some people say they hear such-and-such; others say they (or someone else) measured such-and-such; and ne'er the twain shall meet.
To your question about what specs (among those you quoted) would be improved with a different power supply. Possibly none. The ODAC has regulation and filtering on-board, from what I can tell. However, nobody (not even NwAvGuy, I'm fairly certain) would go as far as to tell you that this makes the ODAC "perfect." It's a circuit; power supplies are a circuit; nothing conforms exactly to an idealized model. And, all of those specs that you quoted are constant stimulus signals - just regular sinewaves or a combination of them. In other words, an easy job for any power supply. What would the specs look like comparatively with transient signals? I don't know, and neither do you.
Plus, I didn't notice where NwAvGuy quoted the specs of the USB power supply that he was using when he made his measurements. Do you know what they are?
With regard to claims that the ODAC offers incredible performance from a USB power supply - well, maybe, but I'm not at all convinced that it's unique. I think the days of "it's USB-powered therefore it must be noisy" are well and truly over. I've been measuring some audio interfaces (aka soundcards) and I really don't see that I would gain anything in the "objective specification" department by buying an ODAC. Here, for example, is the CCIF IMD measurement of a USB soundcard that you guys in the US can buy for $149 - the same as the assembled ODAC:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67904)
You can compare this to NwAvGuy's measurement of the ODAC:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67905)
The scales are different but hopefully it's not too hard to compare (?). Perhaps you can tell us which you would prefer, based solely on these measurements?
Yeah, it could be that my measurements are wrong. But if not, the measured performance of a cheap "home studio" USB sound card bests the ODAC. And you get two mic preamps thrown in as well. So what's going on?
Hope this was not too long :)
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Hi John!
Nice reply and not too long, and actually a nice reply, Its good where we can share stuff and get on with life!
I was going to actually measure the ripple on the Vcc line but I got lazy and dont have a o'scope at home anymore, but do at work in the lab. I would think that for the most part the ripple that would be present (and yes I do think there would be some) is probably not a real issue any more but unless you measure etc you never know.
I have run into a few people that again have issues with popping and ticking and other playback stuff and they indeed do think that it is USB power related good or bad. Who knows in their cases maybe they have a crappy USB supply in the pc. The one person who I do respect that was telling me about his issue had another brand dac that did not exhibit the issues on the same pc and it had several supplies...and thought that this was the problem.
So whether someone posted this or that in thread, this being an ODAC thread its nice to have people post stuff that they experience etc..where it be objective or subjective. Yes people do get wrapped around the axle on things even me!! But I hope the good outweighs the bad...move on.
I actually have sent a note to the designer on some issues and have not received a reply. If I do I will share with you guys.
NWavguy has stated that the ODAC is not perfect but compares well with other dacs more expensive I beleive the one he refers to it the $1600 Benchmark DAC1? But in his blogs, and they are long and deep...he does mention other dacs with superior anti-jitter "circuitry"....the design goals he uses from my viewpoint are just wonderful....whether he is right or wrong will be debateable etc...so the old blind A/B testing etc seems to be one way to try to see if something really matters and that leads to heated debate.
I agree that the ODAC with its specs is not the one and only DAC that has great specs ...its not unique, but at the price point and its simplistic design point its definitely in the running for a best in this price point class for performance....when you compare it to a $1600 Benchmark DAC1at $1600 or so? with a $99 dac and honestly have a hard time telling the difference...well maybe the DAC Magic is a better DAC, better built, more supplies, real copper chassis??, better shielding....(I am guessing here), weighs more, looks better etc...makes you feel better etc...great.
Heck I compared it to my HRT MSii+ which cost me $350 with the ODAC and I cant hear any difference. But the lights on my HRT sure look cool when they light up with the various bit depths and sample rates.... :D But sonically with my ears, cans and loudspeakers its a wash....to me.
The IMD CCIF chart that you posted is interesting. But their are more specs than that on the list NWavguy "thinks" are important and affect the potential audio etc.
So yes there are other audio devices that measure the same, better and worse than the ODAC. Its hard to get from a vendor all the specs in this list....another debate.
•Frequency Response: +/- 0.1 dB (10 hz - 19 Khz 24/44)
•THD+N 100 hz 0 dBFS: 0.0029%
•THD+N 20 hz -1 dBFS: 0.003%
•THD+N 10 Khz -1 dBFS: 0.003%
•IMD CCIF 19/20 Khz -3 dBFS: 0.0011%
•IMD SMPTE -1 dBFS: 0.0004%
•Noise A-Weighted dBu 24/44: --102.8 dBu
•Dynamic Range: > 111 dB A-Weighted
•Linearity Error -90 dBFS 24/44: 0.0 dB
•Crosstalk 0 dBFS Line Out 100K: --93.5 dB
•USB Jitter 11025 hz J-test 24/44: Excellent
•Maximum Output Line Out 100K: 2.0 Vrms
•Distortion: < 0.005%
•PCB Dimensions: 49.0 x 58.0 mm
I being the engineer type would choose the better measurement or the one that you provided if that was the only measurement etc...
The thing is here John, which one sounds better to you?
The sound might not be the only thing that influences a person to buy one item or another.
The great news is this is a cheap dac...and you can buy one love it or hate it...and its sure made other vendors take note....and many of us as well.
Now let me go find my Jerome supply ( and yes I really do have one!!) and I will go in and hotwire one of my odacs and see if I can hear anything for the better or worse?
John!! Thanks for the nice reply I look forward to your personal experience with this Dac.
All the best
Alex
:D
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Well, I dunno if I want to buy one now. Doing so to prove a point to you would be completely pointless. One minute you're specs is all that counts, the next you're personal experience is where it's at.
Really not sure where the DacMagic came into this.
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Well, I dunno if I want to buy one now. Doing so to prove a point to you would be completely pointless.
What do you think it would cost to ship a small (5" square) parcel to you from the USA?
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What do you think it would cost to ship a small (5" square) parcel to you from the USA?
Small flat rate parcel is $15 I think.
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Small flat rate parcel is $15 I think.
Ah. That'a an option then....
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Sure, let me know if you want my address to post something to.
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John,
Maybe someone is going to send you one!!! :D
If your happy with what you have I agree dont spend bucks for the ask of spending bucks!....I was totally happy with my HRT MSii+.
But....I wanted to see for myself if this ODAC thing was real or not with my ears, amps and cans....
Theres no proving a point to me...I know what I am hearing, so dont do this for me!! :D
Specs are important to me, its an engineering level set.
The sound is also important.
The two go together (IMO).
If I see a item with great specs, published and verified the at least "I" have a better feeling that
the design might be at some level that I can trust...and if it sounds good then its a win / win for me.
If I see a product with no specs, that to me are important I have to question what are you hiding.
Alex
:D
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Theres no proving a point to me...I know what I am hearing, so dont do this for me!! :D
Then why are you blathering about specs.
I regret (like wushu) getting involved in this thread. It was just the mindless claim that because a power supply meets some basic current spec that it can't possibly sound different that drew me in. See ya.
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Sure, let me know if you want my address to post something to.
Will do. It has two more stops first.
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“If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing.”
- Daniel von Recklinghuasen, an engineer at H.H. Scott and editor of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society
8)
good measurements are nice, but it's not what i listen to. which is why i am interested in what wushu had to say here. alex, not so much...
doug s.
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I'd like to add another measurement. I apologize to Alex, but it's hard to have a discussion when the terms keep changing. But if an item is brought up then I think it's OK to discuss it and not expect to have the argument changed in the meantime. So this is a measurement of a different soundcard, this time the SMPTE IMD distortion:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67914)
Here's the ODAC plot:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67915)
So, why is the ODAC better exactly?
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I agree with that statement doug, as long as your understanding what your measuring and whats in the chain.
John, I give up.
Like you told me in your PM.....I dont have the time to waste.
You enjoy your stuff...I will just go back to my cave!
All the best
Alex
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You enjoy your stuff...I will just go back to my cave!
The odd thing is that I'm not listening to these, I use them for loudspeaker measurements. I suppose I should tho (listen to them) to see.
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By the way... here's a DAC using the same chips (I think) for only $39...
http://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=62&product_id=83
A comparison would be interesting...
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What is NwAvGuy up to these days? His last blog was in May and since the he has only added a few short replies on his page.
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These ODAC cases are pretty cool.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/220114-cases-odac-bamboo-acrylic.html
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Thanks, those are cool looking cases!
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I'll be using it for 2ch as well. I have a Metric Halo LIO-8 currently so I'm curious....
So JT - how does the ODAC compare to the LIO-8?
gab
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So JT - how does the ODAC compare to the LIO-8?
gab
That's a tough question. I'll say that if I had nothing to compare it to I could be very happy. It's a very impressive unit given it's cost. I don't think subjectively it sounds better then the LIO but it's probably better then most. Again, for $150 this is an absolute bargain.
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That's a tough question. I'll say that if I had nothing to compare it to I could be very happy. It's a very impressive unit given it's cost. I don't think subjectively it sounds better then the LIO but it's probably better then most. Again, for $150 this is an absolute bargain.
Thanks Jason. I think I'll order one to compare to (and maybe replace) my Emotiva XDA-1. Anyone heard both (ODAC & XDA-1) and care to comment on the differences?
gab
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I'm thinking about getting an ODAC for use in the car with my Samsung Galaxy S III as the source. I don't want the phone to power the DAC, so I was thinking about using a 5V car charger to power the DAC. I will splice the 5V car charger into pins 1 (+) and 5 (-) of the USB cable. Will this work? Will it also charge the phone? Does it matter if I use an OTG (on the go) cable or not? OTG cables have pins 4 and 5 shorted at (I believe) the phone end of the cable.