I gotta' question - Rubycon

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Lou

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I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #20 on: 29 Mar 2003, 03:19 pm »
Quote from: CE
If you can't do an electrical check on them, how do you know? quote]

Unfortunately your reading skills are as lacking as your contributions. I said I do not have a DEDICATED capacitance checker, not that I do not have one. Not that you would understand what one is, or does anyway.

Lou

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I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #21 on: 29 Mar 2003, 03:21 pm »
Quote from: randytsuch
Hi Lou,
Thanks for both answers  :wink: .
Wondered if you ever compared gates to Nichicons for power supply filtering?  Right now, I just use gates in smaller values because the big ones (above 1000 uf) are TOO expensive for me.  If the Nichicons even get close to gate performance in the bigger sizes, then they would be a good bargain.

BTW, my original question was really aimed at AVA, because I was wondering how they would recommend a hobbiest test/sort caps.  I do appreciate you answers though.

Randy


Hi Randy,

I too stay with Nichicons due to cost. I thought I had answered this, obviously I read it and for what ever reason did not answer it, sorry.

CE

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I agree
« Reply #22 on: 29 Mar 2003, 03:34 pm »
This is Don Rickles saying bye, bye for now. And how do you know what i know?  I don't know what you know, only what you have posted, and some of the claims you made about certain brands of parts always being better. Which appeared to be based on random swapping and deciding, yup, that's an improvment.

Lou

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Re: I agree
« Reply #23 on: 29 Mar 2003, 05:18 pm »
Quote from: CE
This is Don Rickles saying bye, bye for now. And how do you know what i know?


I am glad you agree. Constructive criticism is always welcome of course, but... I can tell because you A. failed to understand that when I said my DMM could measure capactiance, that I did have equipment to measure caps with, and B. due to the lack of any technical input, and a lack logic in your reasoning. Technical people have to be able to apply logic to either design, or to effect repairs in a timely fashion.

Lou

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I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #24 on: 30 Mar 2003, 04:05 am »
Perhaps this will help. If one uses caps like Nichicons, then highs sound as you would expect, attack in bass is good, and the bass is deep. Use Panasonic FC caps and it is as though you have tossed a light blanket over your tweeter, and added fishing weights to the woofers. Since the composition of the dielectric, from batch to batch will not be completely constant, and as the amount on the plates will vary, I suppose we are figuring Q for each cap in each circuit? If so, what resistance are we allowing for traces and wires? Transformers? I just cannot believe you are getting into milliohms and dead on with Q in each amp. Are we checking joint resistance as well? I may be wrong, but I have some doubt that I am.

CE

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Fishing weights
« Reply #25 on: 30 Mar 2003, 11:08 pm »
I read that adding fishing weights to a woofer is a viable tweak.  It gets you HOOKED on the sound.  Or.......you fall hook, line and SINKER for all thr Audio BS, nonsense, that is somehow made to appear as fact.   I think the material used for the sinker is critical. If you teflon coat it, ift's much better.

Lou

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Re: Fishing weights
« Reply #26 on: 31 Mar 2003, 03:54 am »
Quote from: CE
I read that adding fishing weights to a woofer is a viable tweak.  It gets you HOOKED on the sound.  Or.......you fall hook, line and SINKER for all thr Audio BS, nonsense, that is somehow made to appear as fact.   I think the material used for the sinker is critical. If you teflon coat it, ift's much better.


I thought you agreed that mindless insults were not called for here. You may also want to take note that John Curl, who is the primary designer for Parasound, who I know has designed for Levinson, and many others, disagrees with you and AVI about components not having a sound of their own. As you seem to like name droping, as you lack anything more to argue with. Well, except for insults which are completely meaningless. You might also note that Mathew Polk, Polk Audio, perhaps you have heard of them, and Nelson Pass of Pass Audio, formerly Threshold, et. al. find significant differences in speaker cables, which cause audible issues, as does Spectral who will not warrentee their gear if you do not use their MIT cables, or so I am told. So, you are in a much smaller boat than you realize. Have a life jacket handy Mr. Me Too?

Oh, I forgot, Pass explains the issues in technical terms, so there is not need for you to bother reading what he says as you would not understand it anyway.

CE

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The sound ofwire
« Reply #27 on: 31 Mar 2003, 04:39 am »
There is no science involved in "The sound of Wire".  there is however marketing and cool ads.  Do you REALLy believe that the 3 foot AC cord will effect the sound of a Cd player?  Can you put your brain in gear, and contemplate that absurdity of the idea.  I've read posts in other sites where people are claiming to hear the sound of the insulation of the speaker wire, PTFE versus PVC....it is beyond comprehension, the insanity of such claims. Have you looked inside of quality amps, do you see the hookup wire used to the speaker connections?  there is one outfit, who claims they redesigned the ckt traces to eliminate "ckt bounce"!!!??? the effect of the foil trace on the board.  The PCB is absorbing and re emiting the energy of the audio signal, this causing distortion.!!!     These are not mindless insults but the observations of a person (ME), who find some of these claims of audible effects from the most BIZZARE issues mind boggling. an audio amp, is another electronic device, with electrical parameters, that are meaurable and proveable, just because it's audio signal, how does it become so mystical and more withcraft than science? Putting in some magic wire, inside a speaker cabinet, changing the connectors to some magic material, is all BS.  If you change the power cord, to some special powers model, why do they not change the power switch?  I think it needs a special audio indicator neon lamp in it.Hmmmmmmm, I think I'm on to something, I need to start freezing my rocker switch.  Speaking of ROCKER, I think you may be off yours!!!! there is no sound in wire, there is no sound in AC cord caps or cords. I guess all the pro audio amps out there with their simple XLR connectors, ie. HAFLER , Mackie, all need to get some magic wire inside and to those speakers, so when the Rolling Stones perform, it'll sound better? Some of the people you mention are marketing gurus, not electrical design gurus.  DC resistance effects damping factor of an amp, all else is nonsense(AUDIO freqs).  If you can hear the effect of making the speaker wire 12 feet versus 6 feet or  of some special powers material, you are on a planet, not yet discovered. I have found SoundKing 12 ga. from Parts Express.com  $29/100ft roll. flexible, does not turn green from oxidation, like some highly marketed audio brand of BS wire.  If it came in a fancy wood box, they could sell it for $500/ft and call it  Sound Physics/BS*2.  Hyper, conical,Blitzed, Frozen Deluxe Single Crystal,macro-micro mole,
 enhanced Vampire,Hawk,Geo, Bi dimensional,Fluff-in-nated, Geo-Non Isolated, Cored/Plated/UnPlated/Cryo-Treated, Reverse heated, Heated till done.micro waved, Kohler flushed, dried, rehydrated,sun bleached, Ionisphere, Touched by an angel,kissed by the devil, blessed by the pope, micro-maxie,cored,poured,stripped,Popeye conductor, coated with olive oyle, cleaned in sheep blood, enhanced with bio-rhythm feedback, listened to, burned in  with Fry-o-lator, sonic mystery blips. That J.C. dude claims to hear the sound of AC wiring devices.  I've seen his nonsnse.  I may be in a small boat of reality, remember the TITANIC, it was BIG and it sunk.  they had to try and get into the SMALL boat to survive.  I'll stay in my small boat then, cus' at least it full of survivors and sane people. My speaker wire has no sound, neither does the AC cords. 18 and 16 ga zip on two superb sounding amps I use.  18 ga SPT-1  is good for 10 A...I've measured 8A or so peaks at 103 dB on my system, guess it serves it purpose. 4 ohm FOCUS speakers, 12 gauge for some sharp current peaks.  No mystery connectors either.  Basic metal binding posts. Gold plated to not oxidize, that's all.

CE

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Technical terms of wire
« Reply #28 on: 31 Mar 2003, 04:45 am »
I've read a lot of the "white paper" BS published by these wire marketeers.  Load up a lot of nonsense, with psuedo science, and it all looks like it means something.  Do you go along with some others that a Hubbell sounds better than a Leviton wiring device?  A Pass and Seymore, is "sonically superior" to those standard residential grade devices?  There is a company marketing AC devices with an "audio grade" label.(can you say phoney marketing BS) too bad there is no such thing in the NEMA standards.  Go find out the meaning of NEMA, then get back to me on what I may or may not know. I think I am gonna start selling sonically superior light switches.

Lou

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Re: Technical terms of wire
« Reply #29 on: 31 Mar 2003, 06:03 am »
Quote from: CE
I've read a lot of the "white paper" BS published by these wire marketeers.


I believe I did make one mistake. I may be wrong, but I do believe I heard that Mr. Van Alstine once said that if there was a better "sounding" cable/wire, he'd use it. I believe Kimber took the challenge, sent him some of their wire, and he now uses it in his amps. It may have been someone else, but I think it was Mr. Van Alstine.

Anyway, one cannot argue against an uneducated fool who knows it all, so I am done with you, no one can teach you anything, because you are smarter than us all. I was once strongly in your camp, my training was that a wire is a wire, as long as it has sufficent current carrying capabilities, etc. Now I know it takes special wire to run networks, that weave can impose inductance which can cause phase shifts, etc., but you knew that too.

Good Riddence CE

CE

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Phase shift?
« Reply #30 on: 31 Mar 2003, 10:40 am »
At audio frequencys?  Due to wire?  According to the owner's manual with my Legacy FOCUS speakers, The designer of these fantastic speakers B. Duddleston, nothing is of issue in speaker wire BUT the DC resistance which effects woofer damping.  He throuly explains the wire myths, and explains it all with electrical facts and science.  Go to the  www.legacy-audio.com  You can maybe get the pdf of the manual.  You  in fact may learn something based on reality and electrical facts.  So you are saying out of ALL those wires only Kimber somehow made a difference?  Hmmmmmmmm, my magazines are loaded with cool looking wire ads, with neat pictures of wraps, and insulations, and twist and turns, with all sorts of special audio insulation.  I don't know everything, but electrical facts are facts. When the designer of a top end speaker system tells me about the facts of wire, and even in the AVA amp manual it mentions a bit on wire, (wire ga, matters) I would think the EXPERTS are telling me, what is important.  Legacy dude, really explained inductance, capacitance, resistance and why only one matters in audio electronics. Maybe it didn't have the right kind of image and flashy picutre of some coiled, inter woven magic wrap wire, to get your interest.  The electronics system  I work on use all kinds of exotic componnets.  Most of the system start out at about $100,000 each. to about $400,000 you would be amazed at some of the simple wire they use to get results, in certain sections there is need for some exotic coax maybe, for high freq pulse signal.  I thought insults where not allowed?  How do you know of my education level?  If any?  and I thought you where the one who knew it all.  What color ink do you use to mark up your CD's?  May the Shakti be with you.  I think it's son of pet rock.

randytsuch

I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #31 on: 31 Mar 2003, 05:36 pm »
Lou,
Thanks for the answer on the Nichicons.
One other cap I have used with success is a Jensen 4 pole lytic, but it's hard to find.  A friend of Stan Warrens was selling some for a while, and I put a couple in my SACD 1000, and it really helped, but it also drastically increased the capacitance on the =/- 12VDC, which is used by the output stage in the machine.  Went from 2000 to 10,000 uf.  Referenceaudiomods carries a couple different values of the Jensen's, but they cost more than I got them for, which was $25 for 10000uf/63VDC.
One other source of infomation I know of is a guy named panelhead that has compared different caps for signal and PS bypassing, check out this thread, http://db.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tweaks&m=69983
His real name is George, I've emailed him a few times, real nice guy.

As for CE, don't let him get to you.  He was posting on the hi rez board of AA around Oct of last year.  I think he just likes to get people excited.  I just started to ignore him, and I think other people started ingoring him too, and then he just went away.  I think he does not have any fun unless he gets people upset.  He also seems to know everything, having read all the owner's manuals for his equipment.

He has some choice posts in this thread,
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=hirez&n=100452&highlight=ce&r=&session=

CE, so do you just hang out at a board for a month or so, piss off as many people as you can, then move on?

Randy

audiojerry

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I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #32 on: 1 Apr 2003, 04:05 pm »
Mr. CE may or may not be sincere in what he is posting. I am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt and believe he is merely trying to drive home the point that there is far more hype and BS than science in high-end audio.

I do not have a technical and engineering background to counter many of his claims or of others like him who share his views. However, I believe that such individuals want to cling so strongly to their "scientific" values that their mental frame of mind predisposes them from ever being able to hear audible differences in things such as wire geometry, insulation, dielectric, etc.  If their brain allowed them to accept the reality that there are audible differences, their entire glass house of reality would shatter.

Such "engineer" types like to claim that the audiophile community just fools itself into hearing differences that don't exist, and in many cases that me be true, but they cannot accept the opposite possibility that their hearing perceptions may be just as clouded because they could never accept the premise that if it can't be measured or explained scientifically, it couldn't possibly be audible.

Lou

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I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #33 on: 1 Apr 2003, 04:32 pm »
Hi AJ,

I have hardly proven to myself many claims made by audiophiles to be sure. I have some healthy skepticism to be sure. OTOH, I have found some of their claims to be completely true. One other big issue, IMO, is that of system resolution. I do believe that some systems are so dark that you cannot hear many changes as readily as with other systems.

Anyway, while I remain skeptical about many claims, because I have been proven wrong in the past, I tend not to discount them. I have never heard a difference in power cables for example. Nevertheless, I am in a rural area without much industry or commercial users around.

Properly composed a power cord can be made very capacitive and can act as a choke, thus rejecting noise. If this helps the sound of some gear, it helps, and it makes perfect sense. OTOH, if it helps, I would suspect there is a problem with the power supply, which, theoretically should filter this out. One inherent issue is that a power supply is generally designed to filter 60Hz, not 2KHz, thus high frequency garbage can have it's effects.

OTOH, CE is clueless and only wants to debate what he hears from those he wants to hear from. Nelson Pass and Mr. Polk did scientific work on cables, proved their claims in theory and in fact, and CE merely says that SOME of the people I cited were not experts.

Get it? Selective reading. He wants to believe ABC, so he will ever ignore XYZ, even if XYZ is true. Thus to argue with him is akin to beating your head against a brick wall. You have to lose, because you are wasting your time on someone who ignores scientific fact. Because it does not fit into his paradigm, the truth be damned.

Having said that, I suspect that Mr. Van Alstine may think the same of me. :-) I am tenacious, once I come to believe something, it is hard to get me to part with that belief. Unlike CE, with me it is possible, with a very sound argument.

Lou

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Q, not an end all...
« Reply #34 on: 1 Apr 2003, 06:59 pm »
Ok, I was trying to draw out a little more discussion here, but I see it is not going to happen. So, is it changing Q that makes one cap sound better than another? No, it certainly is not. Lower Q is important, but it ignores an important factor in a capacitor.

In any discussion of passive audio components, one consideration that can't be ignored is the dynamic range of the signals involved. This is why only better quality dielectrics are really suitable since their small signal and large signal characteristics track better. As a filter, that means it will filter better. Black Gate caps have a patent for using graphite in their dielectric, no one else has this, Elna, silk in paper in their Silmic line, etc.

Lesser caps add noise and distortion. Folks who work in microvolts design exclusively with teflon caps for a VERY good reason, they have to. Noise and distortion are still noise and distortion even when they're not in series with the signal, even if they are power supply caps. Outside the direct signal path is less critical, yes, but their effects are still there. This is why certain caps have sound. It is because they have a unique dielectric, and design.

So, low ESR is important, and changing caps CAN alter ESR, and this may well have, or may not, audible effects, but what WILL have audible effects is the design of the capacitor. This is scientific fact friends.

End of story."

randytsuch

I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #35 on: 2 Apr 2003, 01:41 am »
Hi Lou,
One thing is this discussion does not really belong in a manufacturer's forum anymore.  I think you are talking about changing caps in general, and the manufacturer is responding in regards to his product.

In terms of Q, I don't really worry about it (especially since I don't know how to calculate it for a circuit  :wink:, I know more about uprocessors and digital stuff, never very good at analog circuits).

I may disagree with you about PS filtering not being as important as signal caps.  I changed some signal caps in a tube preamp one time, and was not really happy with the outcome.  Then, I changed PS caps, and put in freds, and was much happier with the results.  If you don't have clean power, putting in better signal caps may just let you hear the grunge better.

The caps I change tend to be the bypass caps, or the filter caps used in a PS.  Lately, I have been changing some caps in my SACD 1000, and to my ears, it makes a difference.  But, sometime I have increased the value, as well as changing to a BG, so I can't really be sure what caused the improvement, or if it was both.  I still have more caps to change out, and will show how that goes.

Randy

Lou

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I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #36 on: 2 Apr 2003, 02:25 am »
Quote from: randytsuch
One thing is this discussion does not really belong in a manufacturer's forum anymore.  I think you are talking about changing caps in general, and the manufacturer is responding in regards to his product.

Randy


Hi Randy,

What is true in general is also true specifically though. Better caps, better power supplies, his or others....

Quote from: randytsuch
In terms of Q, I don't really worry about it (especially since I don't know how to calculate it for a circuit  :wink:, I know more about uprocessors and digital stuff, never very good at analog circuits).

Randy


If the Q is high you may well have issues with oscillations and stability, bad thing. It is figured using some basic formulas, you have to know total resistanc, capacitance, inductance, etc. I dug this up, it is a fairly good introduction;

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/experiment/lab/expt3/expt3.html

Quote from: randytsuch
I may disagree with you about PS filtering not being as important as signal caps.  I changed some signal caps in a tube preamp one time, and was not really happy with the outcome.  Then, I changed PS caps, and put in freds, and was much happier with the results.  If you don't have clean power, putting in better signal caps may just let you hear the grunge better.

Randy


Well, if the PS is that bad they should never have let the item get out of the development lab. :-( Anyway, I have no idea why you had issues, so I cannot address your problem(s) with the sigal caps. As you changed the PS caps and put in the Freds at the sametime, you cannot really seperate the effects, but unless you had really bad PS caps, I strongly suspect the Freds had the greater effect. You are right about GIGO, garbage in, garbage out, the power supply does matter.

"Taylo Reference Monitors"

Sweet speakers, I have a friend with them, I am getting Ellis Audio 1801b's myself.

randytsuch

I gotta' question - Rubycon
« Reply #37 on: 4 Apr 2003, 01:37 am »
Quote from: Lou

If the Q is high you may well have issues with oscillations and stability, bad thing. It is figured using some basic formulas, you have to know total resistanc, capacitance, inductance, etc. I dug this up, it is a fairly good introduction;

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/experiment/lab/expt3/expt3.html

Well, if the PS is that bad they should never have let the item get out of the development lab. :-( Anyway, I have no idea why you had issues, so I cannot address your problem(s) with the sigal caps. As you changed the PS caps and put in the Freds at the sametime, you cannot really seperate the effects, but unless you had really bad PS caps, I strongly suspect the Freds had the greater effect. You are right about GIGO, garbage in, garbage out, the power supply does matter.

"Taylo Reference Monitors"

Sweet speakers, I have a friend with them, I am getting Ellis Audio 1801b's myself.


Hi Lou,
Thanks for the link.  It was interesting reading, I need to read it carefully when I get some time.  However, it seemed to be aimed at filters, where I can see Q and where matching capacitors would make a difference.  For PS filtering, and bypassing, I still don't think I will worry about Q.

As for my preamp, it had run of the mill el cheapo caps in it, which I changed to Panisonic TSHB's bypassed with solens.  I think you are right about the about the freds, but I still think the caps helped a little too.  I am not sure the preamp is that bad, it was just designed to sell at a fairly low price, so they used cheap parts.  Sounded much better after I modded it, but it's in the closet now.

I do like my Taylo's, but I am wondering about other monitors.  One of these days, I am supposed to get a chance to audition the GR Research Criterions.  They have been getting good reviews and I think there is an audition set somewhere in the midwest, you may consider giving these a try.  Check out the forum here, and just send GR an email if you want to get on the audition list.

Randy