AudioCircle
The Commercial Zone => Audio Shows and Events => Rocky Mountain Audio Fest => Topic started by: Pez on 15 Oct 2012, 06:19 am
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Pez's Picks
It's very hard to pour through all the rooms you hear and come up with something that you feel really stands out. You would be surprised how many people say 'I don't know.... hmmmm' when you ask them 'What rooms did you like' If you ever go house shopping and see 16 places in one day all the houses start looking alike. Now imagine seeing more than 50 in three day... Add booze, late nights, and jet lag into the equation and you might start to see where we're coming from. None the less it is important for me to highlight the rooms that I felt really stand out.
I want to point out that we did not take price into consideration on any system but one in which the manufacturer had listed the price very prominently (that vendor didn't make the list anyway so it's a moot point) So without further adieu..... In no particular order
most surprising in show
Zellaton room (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110588.msg1141925#msg1141925)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/250919ba2d78e33ae818928200f2ef13.jpg)
Wide band driver huh? Metal driver (vendor assured us it wasn't just metal)... Wow can you get any worse in my mind? Wait... Holy cow... These are phenomenal!!!! As I said imaging was incredible and they were soulful... Just really really great room
Emotiva (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110562.msg1141666#msg1141666)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/fdf77b6f21e478ac50efa6b7e417b245.jpg)
This is one of the best in show because they just sounded so wonderful and probably among the best 5 bookshelf sized speakers I have heard at this show ever. That's saying a lot as this show is saturated with bookshelves.
Voxativ (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110610.msg1142239#msg1142239)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/b69fde3aa53f83efab5b2171498dc5c1.jpg)
What can I say, I know these won't make Tyson's list, but this is truly the first single driver speaker system that made me say 'I get it' It may not do everything perfect nor really blow my mind with tonal balance but they sounded very nice.
swankiest room
Vivid Audio room (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110610.msg1142277#msg1142277)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/b13c25fa2b801ea874ec66ad6236ba1d.jpg)
This wasn't the best in show for sound, but the atmosphere they created in this room was just so damn retro cool I couldn't help myself, I had to make special mention. I'm not saying the sound was bad, it was actually pretty good. But when it looks this good it doesn't need to make any sound at all. 8)
Best in Show
Analysis Audio room (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110562.msg1141577#msg1141577)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/1cba9a06969b83900d37edece9521b38.jpg)
Easily the best 3D imaging period. Felt like you could walk out on the stage.
Vapor Audio room (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110588.msg1142018#msg1142018)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/1f79e4a7fc110b3cec133cc5357b9eaa.jpg)
The legends were true these are bad ass!
Daedalus Audio Day 3 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110610.msg1142330#msg1142330)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/34974410b34950c29cb57df82f13c50a.jpg)
The day 1-2 Daedalus room was pretty rockin', but it wasn't until the Argos were put into the main system that my jaw dropped. Refinement knob was cranked to 11. These speakers have finesse and grace, but also will kick your ass if you want them to.
Tri/Acoustic Zen (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110610.msg1142357#msg1142357)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/6cb20d3c8bb7f5198acb47cf19b570ef.jpg)
other years this room has made the list and this year is no exception. Gorgeous sound very romantic without being tubby or strained. Power like you wouldn't believe, yet grace that will melt your heart. They did it again this year, but bested every other year.
HUGE SCREWUP!!! I forgot to mention AMR!!!
AMR/Avatar (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110562.msg1141671#msg1141671)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/8a598ab5c3def3248ccbb0993b42b435.jpg)
This room did everything soooo well! The reason I think I forgot to mention this room is because it was almost my best of the best until I heard the Odyssey/GIK room. Any way these guys blew it away this year. They really deserve kudos.
BEST OF THE BEST
There can be only one. Normally I spend some time really contemplating 'well this room did this really well, but is that enough to trump this other room which did this well?' but this year one room stood head and shoulders above the rest. Price point be damned, magic hocus pocus BS on a spec sheet be damned, and most of all excuses be damned.
This years absolute best of what I saw at this show is:
Odyssey Audio/GIK Acoustics (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110610.msg1142293#msg1142293)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/3547845da21eef1aad44fc034f26d3a7.jpg)
This system absolutely hit it out of the park. The equipment setup was superlative, the room treatment went above and beyond ANYTHING I have ever seen at these shows. And the equipment was absolutely gorgeous... That said gorgeous equipment was everywhere at this show and no that's not what I am basing this off of. What struck me was how I just melted into the music and felt an elation that is hard to describe no matter what I was listening to. The emotion just took over and I found myself truly enjoying the music. Not the gear, not the traps, not the lack of bass over hang or slap echo or the perfect tonal balance. It was just me and the music washing over my being. If someone took me into this room and said 'This is my system, I have been building it for the last 5 years and this is the final result' I would have been blown away, but Odyssey and GIK accomplished one of the best sounding systems I have ever heard PERIOD at a trade show no less, where setup time is limited and the rooms are small and oddly shaped. :o Congrats guys you created something special here that I will remember for years to come.
Tyson's Picks
Unlike Jason, I'll just have a boring top 10 list, and not any of his fancy schmancy categories. I do feel that there were 3 rooms that were sort of head and shoulders above the rest, so I will note them separately. Otherwise the list is in no particular order.
Top 3
These are the rooms I thought were particularly spectacular this year. Again, unlike Jason, I have a hard time picking a clear winner as I thought they were all phenomenal. Not that they all sounded the same, far from it. They each had their own strengths and weaknesses (but mainly strengths). Without further ado:
Odyssey and GIK
I put both Odyssey and GIK in the title for a reason. Every year we go to the Odyssey room and every year we like it. It's a good "rockin'" room. But every year it lacks in soundstaging, clarity, detail compared to the very best systems. It's never cracked our top 5, let alone number one. And every year there is little to no attention paid to room treatment. That changed this year. Dramatically. Bringing in GIK Acoustics was a game changer. I've said it before and I'll say it again - EVERY vendor sound be a GIK customer (and every audiophile should too, for that matter). They are the Rolls Royce of room treatments. Putting their stuff in your room is like upgrading your DAC, your amp, your preamp, your cables, AND your speakers, all at one time. We always felt the Odyssey gear was being held back by the room and this year proved it. Imaging, soundstage, detail, tonal warmth, microdynamics, emotional engagement, all were there in spades. Congrats guys, this room makes the Best of RMAF with a bullet!
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/3547845da21eef1aad44fc034f26d3a7.jpg)
Zellaton Room
Every year there is one room that comes out of nowhere and knocks us on our butts. This year it was the Zellaton room. They contain every single element of speaker design I normally hate - single wideband midrange driver, no tweeter, metal based drivers, a recipe for disaster, IMO. When I sat down I was ready to trash the room and bolt out the door. Then they put on some music and the magic happened. Imaging, soundstage, clarity, coherence, focus, they did it as well or better than any other speaker. Without being shouty, without being spitty, with a wide sweet spot. While I would not say they were "warm", and they certainly aren't the most dynamic speakers around, I will say that they were an almost perfect window into the recording and the music. Great stuff!
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/250919ba2d78e33ae818928200f2ef13.jpg)
Avatar Acoustics
AMR, First Sound, and Avatar are certainly a winning combo! Perhaps the greatest "all-rounder" room we heard at the show. Nothing stands out over anything else, because this room did great in every single category I can think of. They have been an excellent room for several years not, but this year they got it all dialed in and it took them right to the top of the best at show. Great job guys!
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/8a598ab5c3def3248ccbb0993b42b435.jpg)
Top 10
These are the final 7 vendors that made Best of RMAF this year.
Cabasse
Jason did not like this room at all, but I loved it. They just sounded so BIG and mean and muscular. Like a big muscle car, effortless torque and oozing power even when just idling. And it's a quad concentric design - 4 drivers with the same physical/acoustic center, how cool is that? Maybe not a perfect system for everyone, but if you are the type that listens to music "from the gut", these are definitely worth a look.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/de3ae5d0f56c07a270e17122218ebf94.jpg)
Vapor Audio
"Oh, you have to go hear the Vapor audio room". Oh, do I? I always sort of want a room to suck when everyone is raving about it. Not sure why, maybe a personality defect. Or as Jason might say "It's because your a dick". Anyway, that's how I was feeling about hitting the Vapor room this year, after missing their after hours RMAF debut last year. But the proof is in the listening. And the Vapor room just killed it. Phenomenal room and easily makes my Best at RMAF list.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/1f79e4a7fc110b3cec133cc5357b9eaa.jpg)
GR Research
Hey, what can I say, I'm a GR Research customer (bastardized V2's baby!), and thus am a fan. I love the room every year (Super V's up till now). But the Super 7's do well everything the Super V's do well and then seriously raise the bar in the areas of transparency, speed, clarity, imaging and soundstaging. If you heard them on Friday or Saturday, you did not hear them at their best - there was a setting in the DAC that caused them to sound bright. But that was fixed by Sunday and they were back on the Best of RMAF list, with ease. Don't let the pics fool you, these are BIG speakers, and best of all they SOUND big in all the best ways.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/b1a05129efcbe59c86ef45d20f03cc58.jpg)
Analysis Audio
We never like this room. Big Apogee clones always sound sterile and lifeless. In fact, last year we didn't even bother going to their room because we'd had such consistently bad impressions. But this year we went on a lark and they were glorious. I think they did a lot more to treat their room this year. Regardless, the soundstage was spooky real. Like "walk into it" real. And the tonal balance was not the normal thin/metallic sound we normally hear. Bass was still "light" but that's pretty much par for these big panel type speakers. But the strengths FAR outweigh the weaknesses, IMO.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/1cba9a06969b83900d37edece9521b38.jpg)
Emotiva Audio
They could have cost $10,000 for all I knew. That should answer those questions of "Was it good for the $$, or just great, period?" They were just great, period. The fact that they are so inexpensive (which I found out later) is just gravy.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/fdf77b6f21e478ac50efa6b7e417b245.jpg)
Estelon
Not as great as last year, when they just crushed it. This year was the next-lower-down model in their lineup and the room was still great, just not AS great. I still think it's one of the coolest looking speakers around.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/99e5035041af57b9ded5e43c13f9e862.jpg)
Daedalus
It's the same every year with Daedalus - progressively better sound each day at the show. This year saw not one but 2 new speakers debut. I thought the Orpheus was good but the Argos speakers that were set up on Sunday were phenomenal. Daedalus makes the list based on what we heard on Sunday, for sure. Also a shout to Lou, who's one of the coolest guys in audio.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/34974410b34950c29cb57df82f13c50a.jpg)
Special Award - Best DBT
Precision Transducer Engineering
They had actually set up blind testing, taking an analog signal from a turntable and digitizing it. One input had the original analog signal and the other had the digitized version. We had scorecards and everything. After a few minutes of switching back and forth to acclimate, we were ready to take the test. We had to mark if the signal was analog or digital, and it might change between switches, and it might not. End of the test I'd missed one, which kinda bummed me out, but they told me that I had done "excellent", and only one other person at the show had been able to hear the difference to that extent. That's cool. I love this type of stuff :D I think the guys running the room and giving the test were dismayed that some people (a very few, evidently) could hear a difference. I suspect that they, themselves, could not.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd370/pezacolypse/RMAF%202012/52e02aa3237987857bd57ad0ee2e7d59.jpg)
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Wish the Odyssey site had details on these speakers. Any idea of the price and efficiency?
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The speakers were $3500 of the $5900 total system cost. Not sure about efficiency but he's driving them with a Stratos, at about 150wpc, to breathtaking levels if needed.
I agree, the Odyssey/GIK guys did a terrific job again this year, best ever :thumb:
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I agree, the Odyssey/GIK guys did a terrific job again this year, best ever :thumb:
+1. I couldn't agree more. This room was all about the music. Easily one of the top 3 rooms I heard at the show this year.
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Jason, so glad you've seen the dark side (single driver design). They're not for everyone and certainly not for every genre/occasion.
But somehow on Sunday at the 2012 AKFest those Odyssey speakers didn't come close to doing it for me (in a big room with some GIK). They just sounded completely dull. And others seemed to agree as the room was nearly empty every time I poked my head in while the Vapor (both) and Hawthorne rooms were busy.
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Please see the list again folks, I left out AMR Avatar. :oops:
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Awesome job again this year guys! Even better really.
Do you find out/know anything about those diffusors in the Tri/Acoustic Zen room? Wondering who makes them... Might that be Nittobo Acoustic Engineering Co.? Never have I seen an approach like that.
Thanks
Jason
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I really liked the Avatar/AMR room too. Those $6,000 Italian speakers are very nice, covered with Italian leather. They were very musical, great imaging and a terrific 3-D soundstage. Perhaps the most amazing thing about the room (AMR Amps, First Sound pre; Freickert TT, Tri Planar arm with a Lyra Kelos cartridge), was the $399 iFi phono stage that had dip switches for adjusting cartridge loading. I was blown away how good that little phono stage did. It was about the size of the RMAF program, maybe an inch narrow and a 1/4 inch thicker. I would haighly recommend this phono stage for someone getting into or back into vinyl.
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Jason, so glad you've seen the dark side (single driver design). They're not for everyone and certainly not for every genre/occasion.
Agreed. And Omega is as good/better than Zellation and Voxativ at 1/10 the price. The guy demoing the Zellation speakers had a selection of very simple music played at low volumes. I asked him to turn it up and it might have hit the high 80's for SPL, lol. He also had an all vinyl setup so I couldn't play my own tracks, so I really don't know exactly how they compare to some others. Feastrex just destroy every other speaker I've ever heard with the right material though, nothing even comes close IMO. They aren't versatile or loud though...
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the Vapor (both) and Hawthorne rooms were busy.
Who brought Hawthorne? :o
Are there any pics?
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Anyone have a link to the phono stage? A Google search for iFi only yields "if I ...." as in "If I search for iFi I will only get results for If I". :lol:
I really liked the Avatar/AMR room too. Those $6,000 Italian speakers are very nice, covered with Italian leather. They were very musical, great imaging and a terrific 3-D soundstage. Perhaps the most amazing thing about the room (AMR Amps, First Sound pre; Freickert TT, Tri Planar arm with a Lyra Kelos cartridge), was the $399 iFi phono stage that had dip switches for adjusting cartridge loading. I was blown away how good that little phono stage did. It was about the size of the RMAF program, maybe an inch narrow and a 1/4 inch thicker. I would haighly recommend this phono stage for someone getting into or back into vinyl.
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Awesome job again this year guys! Even better really.
Do you find out/know anything about those diffusors in the Tri/Acoustic Zen room? Wondering who makes them... Might that be Nittobo Acoustic Engineering Co.? Never have I seen an approach like that.
Thanks
Jason
I looked at the Nittobo site but didn;lt see anything like this on their pages. They look like they might be pretty easy to DIY. I am also interested in checking these diffusers out on the front wall behind my Apogees.
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Anyone have a link to the phono stage? A Google search for iFi only yields "if I ...." as in "If I search for iFi I will only get results for If I". :lol:
It's an AMR company repped by Avatar Acoustics. Contact Dean for more info. Apparantly, RMAF was the products debut. http://www.avataracoustics.com/home.html.
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The tweets in those Emotiva bookshelves look like air motion transformers, NOT classic ribbons.
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Agreed. And Omega is as good/better than Zellation and Voxativ at 1/10 the price. The guy demoing the Zellation speakers had a selection of very simple music played at low volumes. I asked him to turn it up and it might have hit the high 80's for SPL, lol. He also had an all vinyl setup so I couldn't play my own tracks, so I really don't know exactly how they compare to some others. Feastrex just destroy every other speaker I've ever heard with the right material though, nothing even comes close IMO. They aren't versatile or loud though...
DaveC,
Since we mentioned on your thread that the subgroup of rooms you saw and reported on were, in general, different than Pez/Tyson's it would be interesting to hear your top picks of RMAF. Obviously, from the above comment, Omega is one.
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Who brought Hawthorne? :o
Are there any pics?
Different show, AKFest this summer.
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Thank you,
iFi has not made the website yet but I bookmarked it. Now if I can only remember to check it later. :wink:
It's an AMR company repped by Avatar Acoustics. Contact Dean for more info. Apparantly, RMAF was the products debut. http://www.avataracoustics.com/home.html.
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Thank you,
iFi has not made the website yet but I bookmarked it. Now if I can only remember to check it later. :wink:
Michael Fremer has a brief write up on his Analog Planet site, http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ifi-micro-iphono-fits-palm-your-hand.
I forgot to mention that it alows one to choose different EQ curves too.
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Thank you. Definitely an item I want to know more about. :thumb:
Michael Fremer has a brief write up on his Analog Planet site, http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ifi-micro-iphono-fits-palm-your-hand.
I forgot to mention that it alows one to choose different EQ curves too.
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Added my top picks to the first post above. Overlaps with Jason's picks, but not exactly the same.
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Those Zellatons look badass.
(and go Emotiva go!)
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Different show, AKFest this summer.
Oh sorry, I thought he was talking present tense, not future. My bad.
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Odyssey Kismet Reference Monitors, couldn't find the name at first.
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The Analysis room featured the new Arion tubed linestage and Arion hybrid [ 6H30 for input ] class "D" monoblocks this year. Last year was the previous SS version.
For Swap Meet Audio it is an honor to be associated with two of your best room selections. We are very proud to rep and sell most these products. Thank you again. FYI the Analysis are not Apogee clones. granted they look similar however designed and built from the ground up in Greece. The Omega this year featured an outboard crossover designed by Mike K.
charles
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Outstandingly enjoyable coverage. Even better that it was a 2 man effort...gave us the ying and yang.
Tell me, did you guys cover the Legacy Aeris speaker in the blog?
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Unfortunately we missed a lot at this show. It's impossible to see everything. Or even majority of things. Let that sink in for a minute, 3 full days busting our asses, maybe saw 1/3rd of the show. If you count the fact we missed CanJam we probably saw 1/4th of the show.
Any way what you see is everything we saw. :o
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Is RMAF bigger than T.H.E. Show (CES) ?
..... just curious.
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The tweets in those Emotiva bookshelves look like air motion transformers, NOT classic ribbons.
That is correct, I spent some time talking with the gent running the room and he verified they are using an AMT.
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Thanks.
Given that I use Heil AMT speakers, I am acutely aware of them. You call them Oskars in the US.
Precide makes the best AMTs in my informed opinion. Their big Heils are crossed at 650hz with a 12db 2nd order crossover filter, while ESS used a 24db crossover filter at 900hz. This is why the Kithara has energy down to 400hz!!! They use the best materials for the membrane. They always run them in a dipole config...never monopole like the many imitators. The Swiss manufacturer was a very close personal friend of the late Dr Heil.
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Unfortunately we missed a lot at this show. It's impossible to see everything. Or even majority of things. Let that sink in for a minute, 3 full days busting our asses, maybe saw 1/3rd of the show. If you count the fact we missed CanJam we probably saw 1/4th of the show.
Any way what you see is everything we saw. :o
Tell me about it. Zurich is a MUCH smaller show and last year I only saw half of it in 5 hours. This year I hope to do better.
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Jason and Tyson,
Thanks a lot to both of you for your kind comments and precise review regarding our room at the show. Klaus and I always felt very good and satisfied with the sound quality we produced at past shows over the years...but this year was something so very special!! It is absolutely clear in my mind (and to my ears) that you must use some form of "professional acoustic treatments". This year indeed made the diference...you guys made the comment last year, and we listened!!
Below is my take of both you guys :o
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69453)
Thanks again for the great coverage of the show...I don't know how you guys make it every year...just superb and to the point!!
All the best.
Alex
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Can we see a picture of the room treatments?
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Is RMAF bigger than T.H.E. Show (CES) ?
..... just curious.
I've never been to either one, but from what I've read, CES is MUCH MUCH larger than RMAF.
But CES is all the main stream (Sony, Bose, etc...) audio, video, and any kind of electronics you can think of including automotive stuff.
Bob
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I went to CES last January, that's why I asked.
THE SHOW which is near CES is what I focused on. It looked just like RMAF, but I didn't know if it was bigger or smaller in scale.
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I went to CES last January, that's why I asked.
THE SHOW which is near CES is what I focused on. It looked just like RMAF, but I didn't know if it was bigger or smaller in scale.
The audio portion of CES is in the Venetian, on mainly 5 floors of one wing (27-31). It is set up VERY much like RMAF. The Flamingo hosts an alternate RMAF-like setup called T.H.E. Show and is set up in the basement and 2 floors or so of the Flamingo. Together, in my estimation, they don't equal RMAF at all. Also, a few vendors reserve a large alternate penthouse kind of setup away from both the Venetian or Flamingo, for reserved guest and higher end dealers. Those are, of course, tougher to attend.
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Together, in my estimation, they don't equal RMAF at all.
The whole show, or just the audio part of it?
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The whole show, or just the audio part of it?
The Venetian (audio portion of CES), plus the THE Show (all audio) does not equal the size of RMAF (it might be close, but I still think RMAF is bigger). Oh, and I forgot about the mezzanine ballroom areas at the Venetian too, but that's only another 20 vendors or so. CES as a whole is freaking enormous, but 80+% of it is at the Convention Center and is non-audiophile (tvs, electronics, portable electronics, etc etc).
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+1 on the AMR/Rosso combo. I am just a bit biased though :lol:
Tony
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The Venetian (audio portion of CES), plus the THE Show (all audio) does not equal the size of RMAF (it might be close, but I still think RMAF is bigger). Oh, and I forgot about the mezzanine ballroom areas at the Venetian too, but that's only another 20 vendors or so. CES as a whole is freaking enormous, but 80+% of it is at the Convention Center and is non-audiophile (tvs, electronics, portable electronics, etc etc).
Thanks Ted. That's what I wanted to know.
I saw just about everything (high end audio related) in the Venitian and the Flamingo, etc., last January. I was thinking about skipping it next January and trying RMAF in 2013 instead. Sounds like it would be totally worth it, plus it's good to take a little break from seeing the same stuff over and over.
:thumb:
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I am not so sure RMAF is bigger than CES (high end audio only) plus T.H.E. Show. Last year between the CES high end audio at the Venetian and T.H.E. Show at the Flamingo I counted over 240 suites or rooms. That is based upon show literature showing the floor plans.
Many suites at the Venetian had more than one system set up. Definitely not ideal conditions but overwhelming in the amount of equipment present.
There is a lot of overlap between RMAF and CES/T.H.E. Show but there also quite a few vendors who only exhibit at one event. The focus of the shows is quite different with regards to target audience.
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Can we see a picture of the room treatments?
Sorry I didn't get any more pics of the treatment, but if you look at the Odyssey room pics I took you'll see that they had the new scopus traps, diffusors, and the soffit bass traps. In the rear I remember seeing basic monster traps and quite honestly I forget beyond that... :duh:
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I am not so sure RMAF is bigger than CES (high end audio only) plus T.H.E. Show. Last year between the CES high end audio at the Venetian and T.H.E. Show at the Flamingo I counted over 240 suites or rooms. That is base upon show literature showing the floor plans.
Many suites at the Venetian had more than one system set up. Definitely not ideal conditions but overwhelming in the amount of equipment present.
There is a lot of overlap between RMAF and CES/T.H.E. Show but there also quite a few vendors who only exhibit at one event. The focus of the shows is quite different with regards to target audience.
That's interesting. I've done both and definitely got the impression that RMAF was bigger. (high performance audio only - and not the stuff on the main convention floor like car audio companies, Low end best buy type stuff, and companies that don't actually sell gear like DTS) I'll have to pay more attention to the room/exhibitor count this year.
One thing I'll say though, is RMAF is for sure more convenient and much friendlier. CES is an industry show, so it's a lot of dealers and distributors doing business and it doesn't cater to consumers, who aren't technically even supposed to attend. RMAF is all in one building and it's all about the potential customers. (and the press, I suppose) If I had to pick one I'd take RMAF every time in a heartbeat, both as an exhibitor and attendee.
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I am not so sure RMAF is bigger than CES (high end audio only) plus T.H.E. Show. Last year between the CES high end audio at the Venetian and T.H.E. Show at the Flamingo I counted over 240 suites or rooms. That is base upon show literature showing the floor plans.
Many suites at the Venetian had more than one system set up. Definitely not ideal conditions but overwhelming in the amount of equipment present.
There is a lot of overlap between RMAF and CES/T.H.E. Show but there also quite a few vendors who only exhibit at one event. The focus of the shows is quite different with regards to target audience.
I guess you might be right about the size. I guess I wasn't counting all the pieces parts. Close, either way. And although CES is technically a dealer/industry show the feel of the Venetian rooms is very similar to RMAF IMO.
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Sorry I didn't get any more pics of the treatment, but if you look at the Odyssey room pics I took you'll see that they had the new scopus traps, diffusors, and the soffit bass traps. In the rear I remember seeing basic monster traps and quite honestly I forget beyond that... :duh:
Below are a couple pictures showing some of the room treatments used at the show (a couple more not seen). The GIK forum has the complete list with specs.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69465)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69466)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69467)
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Of course I'm happy to be on your Best of list, but I just wanted to say thanks to the both of you for the service you're providing to the community here with coverage. I know what you're doing it a lot of work, and certainly in ways takes the fun out of the show for you. But hopefully you won't get burned out on doing it, and will continue for years. We truly do appreciate it!
I also have a feeling that you're putting the pressure on the other reviews sites out there to step up their game in show coverage. How you do it really puts them all to shame. And forcing them to do a better job again will benefit us all.
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Of course I'm happy to be on your Best of list, but I just wanted to say thanks to the both of you for the service you're providing to the community here with coverage. I know what you're doing it a lot of work, and certainly in ways takes the fun out of the show for you. But hopefully you won't get burned out on doing it, and will continue for years. We truly do appreciate it!
I also have a feeling that you're putting the pressure on the other reviews sites out there to step up their game in show coverage. How you do it really puts them all to shame. And forcing them to do a better job again will benefit us all.
TRUE THAT ! :D
+A BIG thanks to Pez and Tyson for the coverage !!
And congrats TurboFC3S (Ryan from Vapor Sound) for having two of the best rooms at RMAF2012 !!
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Ryan,
Thanks for the kind words, and it was great to meet you.
We actually got a tentative feeler (not quite a job offer) to write for one of the mags. We politely declined. As soon as money is involved, everything goes to shit. So we are just going to keep doing what we are doing. It's a lot of work but we love doing it.
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Sorry I didn't get any more pics of the treatment, but if you look at the Odyssey room pics I took you'll see that they had the new scopus traps, diffusors, and the soffit bass traps. In the rear I remember seeing basic monster traps and quite honestly I forget beyond that... :duh:
The panels in the rear of the room are the same size as the Monsters but are our new FRL panels. They are a damped membrane design. They're not on our website yet. Basically, the perform a bit lower and better than the Monster but cut off at 300Hz so as not to overdeaden a space and allowing us to use more of them. They fall in coverage range between the broadband and the Scopus. They run $149 each. There will also be a corner version similar to the Tri Trap but a larger triangular footprint and 2' tall and stackable. Price TBD on those.
Thanks again to Tyson and Pez for a great job. It's gotta be exhausting.
Bryan
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Ryan,
Thanks for the kind words, and it was great to meet you.
We actually got a tentative feeler (not quite a job offer) to write for one of the mags. We politely declined. As soon as money is involved, everything goes to shit. So we are just going to keep doing what we are doing. It's a lot of work but we love doing it.
Too bad, I was going to offer you guys a job too!
Either way, great work, great coverage and good photos. I'll be sure to put a link here on our FB page and direct some traffic your way. Next year, look me up, I'll be happy to buy you guys a few beers!
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Tyson and Pez, when are you going to do this show? LoL
HIGH END SWISS 2012
Location: Mövenpick Hotel Zürich-Regensdorf
Date: October 19th to 21st 2012 – Friday to Sunday
Opening hours:
Friday from 10am to 6pm Import to calendar
Saturday from 10am to 6pm Import to calendar
Sunday from 10am to 4pm Import to calendar
Entry fee: 10,00 CHF per day
Trade visitor badge: 10,00 CHF, valid for all days only with pre-registration
Show Guide: Available up from October 2012
For more Information please call:
Tel.: +49 (202) 70 20 22 - Fax.: +49 (202) 70 37 00
or by mail
Brands: http://www.highendsociety.de/index.php/brand_names.html
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Too bad, I was going to offer you guys a job too!
Either way, great work, great coverage and good photos. I'll be sure to put a link here on our FB page and direct some traffic your way. Next year, look me up, I'll be happy to buy you guys a few beers!
Appreciate the offer, I really do. But it's not just the $$. As long as it's just me and Jason doing it on our own, we can say "that rocked" or "that sucked", make bad jokes (sometimes at other people's expense, but usually directed at ourselves) without any fear that we are helping or harming anyone, after all we are just 2 guys and we don't even agree with each other most of the time. On the other hand, if we were working for a magazine (any magazine), then our words would have much more of a stamp of authority and thus more power and thus more ability to help or hurt people.
I like helping people. I don't like hurting people. So staying independent and just being "a couple of dudes having fun" lets me keep the ability to state my opinions without varnish and not worry too much if someone is gonna take what I say as gospel. Particularly since Jason is usually right there with me saying I'm full of shit :P
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Hey!
Pez, Tyson, you two make a good team covering the show, with commentaries and good photos. :D
Looking through these make me wish I was at the show.
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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Like Siskel and Ebert, Abbott and Costello, Kirk and Spock... Well actually If I were both Kirk and Spock and Tyson was just one of the red shirts on the away team. :thumb:
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Like Siskel and Ebert, Abbott and Costello, Kirk and Spock... Well actually If I were both Kirk and Spock and Tyson was just one of the red shirts on the away team. :thumb:
Abbott and Costello,,,, that'll work. :jester:
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Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire.
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Appreciate the offer, I really do. But it's not just the $$. As long as it's just me and Jason doing it on our own, we can say "that rocked" or "that sucked", make bad jokes (sometimes at other people's expense, but usually directed at ourselves) without any fear that we are helping or harming anyone, after all we are just 2 guys and we don't even agree with each other most of the time. On the other hand, if we were working for a magazine (any magazine), then our words would have much more of a stamp of authority and thus more power and thus more ability to help or hurt people.
I like helping people. I don't like hurting people. So staying independent and just being "a couple of dudes having fun" lets me keep the ability to state my opinions without varnish and not worry too much if someone is gonna take what I say as gospel. Particularly since Jason is usually right there with me saying I'm full of shit :P
Understood. But seriously, it's all about personal preference, so I don't see the harm in what you guys are doing, even when you think something sucks. I've heard so many of these components at many shows; sometimes they sound awesome, sometimes they sound terrible. I guess I often see the shows as more of a measure of a manufacturer's ability to set a system up than how their stuff necessarily sounds!
Keep up the good work!
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Just a big thanks to you both.
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good work guys, I really appreciate what you do. even though I often disagree, your fresh perspective is helpful as well as entertaining.
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Let me add my thanks to Tyson and Pez for their extensive coverage. This was my first RMAF and I was able to use some of your comments to lead me to exhibitors I might not otherwise have heard (but I am bummed out that I didn't get to all the rooms you praised). I agree with many of your top picks (and always found your comments thoughtful), but would add the Nola KO, Wisdom, TAD, Coincident, Tocaro and Vandersteen 7 (although I'm not fond of Vandersteen's lower-level speakers) to the list. And, of course, I'm partial to Salks, owning a pair of HT2s myself.
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TAD
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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We completely missed the TAD room this year. When we tried to visit they were full to the brim. No way unfortunately. :(
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Awesome job again this year guys! Even better really.
Do you find out/know anything about those diffusors in the Tri/Acoustic Zen room? Wondering who makes them... Might that be Nittobo Acoustic Engineering Co.? Never have I seen an approach like that.
Thanks
Jason
These are from AGS technology or Acoustic Grove System (but some spellings come up under "Groove" also. I guess a subsidiary of Nittobo Acoustic Engineering... They are the SYLVAN and ANKH diffusors. Cost is high, ranging somewhere around $2700. USD :o
Might be an eisier DIY diffusor than a QRD.
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We completely missed the TAD room this year. When we tried to visit they were full to the brim. No way unfortunately. :(
The main TAD room set up by Andrew Jones was playing their new $29k/pr speakers (no Be on the midrange) with TAD electronics. It sounded good, but maybe not quite as good as a couple of other rooms with similarly priced speakers but much cheaper associated equipment (Rockport, Estelon, Verity). JMO of course.
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(http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/img/s1/v54/p1193585616-3.jpg)
"Andrew Jones intro’d his entry-to-the-TAD-system loudspeaker, the $29,800 Evolution One (powered and sourced by TAD electronics). Like the CR1 and the Reference One, the three-way E-One uses TAD’s coincident driver, a beryllium tweeter and (in this case) magnesium (rather than beryllium) midrange, with two slightly smaller (7”), less-all-out woofers made of Aramid fiber—all in a rounded-top, ported enclosure. On Boz Scaggs’ rendition of “My Funny Valentine” the smaller TADs had, as usual, very good low-level detail, excellent grip in the bass, and superior weight and transient response. Indeed, though a mite dark in balance (like all TADs), they were quite lovely and powerful on this cut and on Muddy Waters’ “Good Morning Little Schoolgirl.” But, like the Wilsons and the Serenities, they were ultimately prettier-sounding than they were realistic. Since realism improved on Bill Kenton’s version of “How Long Has This Been Going On?” it will clearly take more listening to reach a reasoned judgment." - J. Valin, TAS
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We completely missed the TAD room this year. When we tried to visit they were full to the brim. No way unfortunately. :(
I went by the TAD room early Fri when it was nearly empty. Last year I thought it was the best room at the show. This year it was another very good room among lots of very good rooms. It had a bit of mid bass bloom that was almost certainly the room. I went straight after spending time in the GR room to make a back to back comparison. This year I thought that the Super 7 and associated gear was the better sound.
By the way, if there was a better buy at the show than the Dodd preamp at $899, I didn't see it or hear it. Considering that the original version was all the rave at $3300 a few years ago, and the new version takes less tubes and less amps, it's a no brainer.
Scott
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"... But, like the Wilsons and the Serenities, they (TAD E-1's) were ultimately prettier-sounding than they were realistic." J. Valin
I couldn't disagree more with this statement with regard to the TADs. I visited his room at least 3 times Saturday and it was very real to me. Maybe slightly bettered by the TAD CR-1's up in the Zesto room, but that was mostly vinyl.
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I couldn't disagree more with this statement with regard to the TADs. I visited his room at least 3 times Saturday and it was very real to me. Maybe slightly bettered by the TAD CR-1's up in the Zesto room, but that was mostly vinyl.
+1
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I think Mr. Valin was depressed because there were no Magico speakers at RMAF for him to praise.
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Ha! I've been trying to get in the Magnepan room for 9 years now. It's never happened!
I wish these guys weren't always so "absolute" about all of this. It's a show...
I've heard TAD, Wilson, Magico, you name it all sound great and all sound marginal.
One of our reviewers, Jacob Heilbrunn, who also writes for TAS has a pair of Wilson XLF's
and they sound awesome in his room, with his gear. Same with the other three.
Just got the new Magicos in and they sound pretty impressive. Yet different than Wilson
or TAD.
To me, it's like comparing a Lexus, BMW, Audi and Mercedes. All somewhat different, all
excellent cars, yet each one appeals to a different person and the guy that loves Audi
doesn't much care for the other three and vice versa.
It's only hifi!
:)
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But, like the Wilsons and the Serenities, they were ultimately prettier-sounding than they were realistic. Since realism improved on Bill Kenton’s version of “How Long Has This Been Going On?” it will clearly take more listening to reach a reasoned judgment." - J. Valin, TAS
..hmm
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Ha! I've been trying to get in the Magnepan room for 9 years now. It's never happened!
I wish these guys weren't always so "absolute" about all of this. It's a show...
I've heard TAD, Wilson, Magico, you name it all sound great and all sound marginal.
One of our reviewers, Jacob Heilbrunn, who also writes for TAS has a pair of Wilson XLF's
and they sound awesome in his room, with his gear. Same with the other three.
Just got the new Magicos in and they sound pretty impressive. Yet different than Wilson
or TAD.
To me, it's like comparing a Lexus, BMW, Audi and Mercedes. All somewhat different, all
excellent cars, yet each one appeals to a different person and the guy that loves Audi
doesn't much care for the other three and vice versa.
It's only hifi!
:)
You're so right Jeff. I love my Audi but I'd have to trade it for the TADs :wink:
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I went by the TAD room early Fri when it was nearly empty. Last year I thought it was the best room at the show. This year it was another very good room among lots of very good rooms. It had a bit of mid bass bloom that was almost certainly the room. I went straight after spending time in the GR room to make a back to back comparison. This year I thought that the Super 7 and associated gear was the better sound.
By the way, if there was a better buy at the show than the Dodd preamp at $899, I didn't see it or hear it. Considering that the original version was all the rave at $3300 a few years ago, and the new version takes less tubes and less amps, it's a no brainer.
Scott
Dodd has a $900 preamp? Not a buffer or a kit? Is it worse than the $3300 model? That sounds interesting. I still want to do the Dspeaker next, but it might be fun to try a preamp in front of it later..
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You're so right Jeff. I love my Audi but I'd have to trade it for the TADs :wink:
:lol:
I loved my 335 but would've traded it for TAD's too. 911, not so much. :wink:
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The $4500 Peachtree did a great job driving the big TADs. Unfortunately, they are worth 4 of my Subie WRXs.
I really liked these speakers, and they are capable of playing at crazy high SPLs too.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/RMAF%202012/RMAF2012011.jpg)
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Dodd has a $900 preamp? Not a buffer or a kit? Is it worse than the $3300 model? That sounds interesting. I still want to do the Dspeaker next, but it might be fun to try a preamp in front of it later..
I wouldn't absolutely bet the farm on it, but I'm pretty sure that I heard that right when I was talking to him. Give him a call to make sure.
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It's not on the website. I won't bother him, he's busy enough. No hurry on that anyway. But, do you know if it also had variable gain like the one listed?
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It's not on the website. I won't bother him, he's busy enough. No hurry on that anyway. But, do you know if it also had variable gain like the one listed?
Now that I really couldn't say- I doubt it at that price. I caught the price in an overheard conversation, thought to myself "Damn, I paid a lot more than that for mine" and moved on. Tell you what, since I started this, I'll call Gary tomorrow and find out if I had it right. Then I'll get back to you.
Scott
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Thank you, because if I get the Dual Core and decide to add a nice pre to it, $900 is in my wheelhouse.
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and come to think of it the Dual Core has adjustable sensitivity anyway.
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and come to think of it the Dual Core has adjustable sensitivity anyway.
Yes, the DC has an ANALOGUE preamp built into it.
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Well that's the one area where the reviewer was kinda iffy http://www.avforums.com/reviews/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-8033-Dual-Core-review_361/Review.html , however he was running it off the stock wall wart power supply (eww). Rodge827 has one running with 12V battery supply and it has replaced his Warspeed ldr, which is what I am using and love. He says the Dual Core off battery is excellent, and just as transparent as the Warpspeed, which tells me the sound quality is superb. Either way it might be fun later on to put a different pre up front and let the unit boogie with everything else from correction on out to dac.
I'm sure that 12V battery instead of 9V wall wart will be a large improvement to the preamp section.
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Understood.
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Dodd has a $900 preamp? Not a buffer or a kit? Is it worse than the $3300 model? That sounds interesting. I still want to do the Dspeaker next, but it might be fun to try a preamp in front of it later..
I just talked to Gary, and I had it right.... $899 for a preamp. So like I said, this is one of best buys, if not the best buy, at the RMAF. And what's even better, it does include the remote...... Actually, I think it deserves a different thread.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67823)
Scott
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Hi Guys,
Finally back home...somewhat rested..........slept 15 hours...........11 days, 5 at the show non-stop, 2 system installs on the way back, 3200 miles, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
Thanks a mill to all of you for making this RMAF show truly great. This has been my 70th show, and it was one of the best, performance, business, and fun-wise. You know who you guys are, a big, big thanks from me and Irina.
As to the show, here are some of my thoughts.
- GIK's are very good, no surprise. For once, I didn't have to fight the room, and actually, achieved somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 % of what I have at home, in my show room.
- Melting away, awash with emotions, goose bumps all over, true realism. Thanks for the vine, but man, I'm preaching this forever.
- The Kismet reference monitors, yup, they are awesome in every respect, (Beryllium, baby) but speakers always get the lion share of attention. just look at all of the threads here. Let's not forget the rest of the system, including big kudos to Alex for designing the Suspiro phono stage. man oh man, it is good.
- And yes, it was a Stratos stereo plus SE running(ALBEIT SOME MODS TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST) in order to bring the system cost below 6 K.
- Attendance was definitely down big time this year, which was a good thing. We set up the room as a non-compromise high ender, meaning there was really only 1 chair for the ultimate sweet spot. Some serious attention has been paid to this spot, having Bryan come in and set up the GIK's, clearing my head, and working for 3 hours straight until 4 am to get the absolute best interaction with the room. Funny, how your mind always seem to play tricks, but somehow, it was obvious when it was "there". Very obvious, because it was so wide, deep, precise, and natural, AWESOME !!!!!! GIK, baby. Anyway, we seemed to have a lot more serious listeners who were able to listen for longer periods of time without feeling bad that they took away chair time from others. That's what I would have wanted as a show goer.
- During the show, I promised to behave myself, and guess what ??? I did. It helped that I left most of my crazy stuff at home. So, it was fantastic when Jonathon, Standub and others brought their heavy music to rock out on.
- The best moments for me at a show is when a listener brings his own music. I usually put in the disc, and hand over the remote and tell him/her to go nuts. For one, and for whatever reason (actually, we all know why) other exhibitors don't do this at all. But what is the point then when you can't hear your own music to evaluate system x y z ???
In addition, this is a great way to hear new tunes.
- Same goes with the lighting. If there is a truly dedicated listening group who wants to stay for a while, I tend to turn off the lights for several reasons. Obviously, it sounds better in subjective terms, but also, it discourages people to just come in and walk around or talk, etc. Everything seems to be more serious, and yet, more relaxing at the same time. It's a bit tricky, and I'm doing this at shows for over 20 years, but when it works, it works well.
- This brings me to our music. We don't have any "audiophile" music, even though this is misleading since our tunes from regular over the shelf records sound fantastic. What is "audiophile" anyway ??? Many of you asked us about our play lists. Well, there are many, of course, but the main show pieces on disc were:
Stevie Ray, Tin Pan Alley
Pink Floyd, The Wall
Lou Reed, Walk on the wild side
Radka Tonnef, The moon is a harsh mistress
Anna Lotte Larsen, The Rose
Shostakovich Symphony # 9, Inbal / Vienna
Rawhide, Kunzel / Cincy Pops
As for LP's:
Alan Parsons, The Raven
Joan Baez, Diamonds and Rust
Pink Panther Soundtrack
Supertramp / School
John Hiatt, Have a little faith in me
Cracker, I can't forget you
AND OF COURSE MILES, Time after time live
It was nice to catch up with many of you AC'ers. And as for Tyson and Jason, same goes as last year. A great job, great ears, great sense of what systems actually do, great writing, and yup, you are completely, wonderfully looney for doing this the way you do it.
Finally, in retrospective, it is fantastic to have a wife that not only supports my crazy job, life style, and hours, but who is always game to just "go". And a big shout-out to our 2 dogs, Precious the Pom-a-poo, and Powder, the Samoyed-Border mix. They are incredible travel companions, who make my trips so much more fun. Oh yeah, the black hills and Badlands are badass.
Late,
Klaus