Electric car talk

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 12475 times.

Occam

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #80 on: 4 Feb 2011, 04:16 am »
......
I am personally not one to believe that the earth is anywhere near that old. That to me is too much speculation and takes too much of a blind leap of faith to believe.

Different leaps for different peeps.  8)

persisting1

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #81 on: 4 Feb 2011, 04:32 am »
Religion?  Really?   :duh:

Len_Dreyer

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #82 on: 4 Feb 2011, 04:44 am »
Different leaps for different peeps.  8)

Well said. While recently in Philly, my brother's electric heating plant couldn't warm the house above 60 degrees. Long story short, there was no problem with the system. There is no natural gas system in his neighborhood. One of the options discussed was a geo-thermal system. Drilling done to the water table, said to be 65 degrees, then pumping that heat mass up to the house and either heating or cooling it at that point. System upgrade was estimated to be $30K. My brother balked considerably until I pointed out that his car cost more.

Len

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #83 on: 4 Feb 2011, 05:59 am »
I'd rather pay 4 cents per mile and have 4 wheels (I've seen the Top Gear episodes of the 3 wheeled Robin tipping over.)   :roll:
But up here in the great white north, and driving 40,000 miles per year (wifey does another 30,000 miles per year), I'd need a minimum 100 - 200 mile range.

At the Xprize a three wheel competitor went throgh the lane change and almost went over.  I have to find the youtube for that.  The Alias range is about 110 miles.  It doesn't tip over.

lonewolfny42

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 16918
  • Speakers....What Speakers ?
Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #84 on: 4 Feb 2011, 06:17 am »
Many ZAP videos here....Link...

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10660
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #85 on: 4 Feb 2011, 11:12 am »
We built an EPA 5 star house about 5 years ago (builder got $20,000, I got all the bills including the cost to certify).  Thought long and hard about going with a horizontal non-contact geothermal system.  But the upcharge was $10,000 (which I could have put into more insulation/etc. and then have less need for the system - plug the hole, then find a more efficient way to fill it).  But my real gripe was that for the system to have the lowest life cycle cost the length of underground loop would be minimized.  So, as Len said, the system only would work down to 20 degrees F.  After that an electric grid would kick in and you'd be heating with the least efficient method available as conditions get their worst.  That urked me to no end.

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10660
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #86 on: 4 Feb 2011, 11:31 am »
Is a 3 wheel design really necessary to conserve energy/upfront cost?  One pothole or snow bank and you'd be done.  I recall that at Oldsmobile's 100th anniversary one of their oldest, curved dash, models hit a pothole the day before the big parade and flipped on it's nose and broke the "sacred" curved dash.  Fortunately Olds still had a carpenter's shop (mostly to crate special tools) and they somehow fixed it overnight.  Ironic isn't it, that after 100 years of "progress" the roads are in worst shape?

Frankly this vehicle looks more like an enclosed golf cart than a car, except golf carts have 4 wheels.  Maybe a good idea for retirees in Florida.  BTW my Toyota dealership had some electrics for sale a couple of years ago, they looked like very small cars (like I'd imagine you might find in Toyko) and cost roughly $20,000.  They were licensable, but we don't have enough of an urban setting here for them to make sense.

My 1978 Rabbit weighed 1700 pounds (no power doors/windows, A/C, automatic transmission, air bags, etc.).  Now the Mazda 2 is being praised for coming in at 2200 pounds.   :scratch:  Maybe we need to go backwards.  Lighter car needs a smaller/lighter engine, which allows for a lighter/smaller car that could use a smaller/lighter engine, etc., etc.  Nowadays typical small cars weigh over 3000 pounds and need a 1.8L for an automatic to get a good combination of mileage and performance (or a 1.5L for a manual transmission).

sts9fan

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #87 on: 4 Feb 2011, 03:50 pm »
Quote
That to me is too much speculation and takes too much of a blind leap of faith to believe.
Into
Quote
My evidence comes from the one that created us all, the heavens and the earth. I live in "one nation under (him)". All of my currency says that it is "in (him) that we trust".... Maybe you've heard of him. I can't think of a greater authority. I'll stick with him.

Anyone else see issues with this? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #88 on: 4 Feb 2011, 04:07 pm »
sts9fan,

I think it is safe to say that there are those that believe in evolution and those that believe in creation. I have no issue with the mention of the existence of either in regards to our Earth, it resources and the conservation there of as part of a shared interest in audio, electric cars, etc. A debated discussion between the two isn't going to fly so let's not go there.

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #89 on: 4 Feb 2011, 08:04 pm »

Is a 3 wheel design really necessary to conserve energy/upfront cost?

The three wheel design is done to save money on DOT approvals.  4 wheel certification is very expensive.  Trust me the Alias is not a golf cart.

geezer

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 389
Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #90 on: 4 Feb 2011, 11:56 pm »
We built an EPA 5 star house about 5 years ago (builder got $20,000, I got all the bills including the cost to certify).  Thought long and hard about going with a horizontal non-contact geothermal system.  But the upcharge was $10,000 (which I could have put into more insulation/etc. and then have less need for the system - plug the hole, then find a more efficient way to fill it).  But my real gripe was that for the system to have the lowest life cycle cost the length of underground loop would be minimized.  So, as Len said, the system only would work down to 20 degrees F.  After that an electric grid would kick in and you'd be heating with the least efficient method available as conditions get their worst.  That urked me to no end.

My experience with geothermal heating/cooling is very different. I have a ground source heat pump with a closed loop of about 500 feet of tubing six feet down. Mine is a three-stage system. In stage one, the compressor runs at 60% capacity; in stage two it's at 100% capacity. Stage three is where the 10KW electric element kicks in. Since it was installed about 7 years ago we've had several instances of temperatures at about -5 degrees F, and once it went down to -10. (This is near Pittsburgh.) Never has it gotten to stage 3, and it went to stage two no more than a dozen times, and each time only for brief periods (Usually cycling between stages one and two).

My unit is a brand called Water Furnace made by Northern Leader (which is a Canadian company, I think).

I chose to go with the geothermal system at a time when my gas furnace and whole house air conditioner had to be replaced. The geo system cost only about $5000 more than a new gas furnace and traditional AC system would have. My heating/cooling annual bill is now about $1000 less than it was, so I passed the break-even cost point a couple of years ago, and now I'm reaping the reward. Of course there's also the factor that it's "green."

By the way, I looked at three companies before the one I chose to go with. One was rejected because under close questioning he showed considerable ignorance about how the system works. The other was rejected because his price was almost double the one I went with. You have to do the research.

Using the system is very convenient. I set maximum and minimum temperatures, and the system automatically either does nothing or produces heating or cooling as necessary.

I would urge anyone needing to replace a traditional HVAC to look very hard at a ground-based geothermal heat pump system.

Oh yes: I forgot to mention that when the system is heating or cooling there is some excess waste heat that it has to throw out. This goes to help the heating of water in the water heater.

geezer

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 389
Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #91 on: 5 Feb 2011, 12:11 am »
To each his own. My evidence comes from the one that created us all, the heavens and the earth. I live in "one nation under (him)". All of my currency says that it is "in (him) that we trust".... Maybe you've heard of him. I can't think of a greater authority. I'll stick with him.

By now there are mountains of evidence that He arranged for the earth to come together at about 4.5 billion years ago, and the universe about 13.3 billion years ago.

If you can tell me where in the Bible you find that He says otherwise I'd like to have the reference.

(My question is not frivolous. Although my faith does not agree with yours, I respect your beliefs. I think that anyone who ridicules any person's deeply held beliefs is an intellectual bully and an ass.)

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #92 on: 5 Feb 2011, 12:57 am »
Quote
If you can tell me...

PM sent.

TomS

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #93 on: 5 Feb 2011, 01:40 am »
Water Furnace is actually here in Ft. Wayne IN.  Lots of them in the area and they do a great job in our climate.

Len_Dreyer

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #94 on: 5 Feb 2011, 03:46 am »
Geezer & TomS, I'm going to pass the Water Furnace info onto my brother. Thanks.

On the electric car front, I looked at a couple of 2008 Zap Xebra pickups on Monday. They are new/unused & the asking price is $6,500. I did a little online research & here is some of what I found. The first models in 2006 had fiberglass bodies and the vehicles had a lot of inherent problems. In 2008, they came out with an upgraded version which included a metal body but there were still a few problems. Zap discontinued the Xebra line. My guess is that Zap is liquidating old inventory now.  While researching I ran into a number of recommended mods that included: adding an additional battery, beefing up the suspension for the front wheel & adding gauges that would give battery life info, better odometer readings etc. etc. Some of the more interesting information to me concerned how to use the batteries. One example involved a recommended break-in process for new batteries. Another informed that if the vehicle sat for a few days the battery charge was less than optimal. Generally speaking all this new info tended to turn me off to the purchase idea but given a few days I'm thinking about it again. One of the things I realized is that there needs to be a better education process that includes the pros & cons in order to promote these newer/non-mainstream technologies, geo-thermal and electric cars.

Len

HAL

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 5192
Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #95 on: 5 Feb 2011, 04:28 am »
We have a WaterFurnace and love it!  We have vertical wells instead of the horizontal loop.  Water temp is around 55 degrees all the time.

Len_Dreyer

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #96 on: 5 Feb 2011, 04:48 am »
Hal :thumb: I think I misheard my brother concerning the ground water temperature after reading more. If anyone is interested here's a brief summary of: geothermal heat pumps.

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #97 on: 5 Feb 2011, 07:07 am »
One of the things I realized is that there needs to be a better education process that includes the pros & cons in order to promote these newer/non-mainstream technologies, geo-thermal and electric cars.

Did you drive the truck?  We sold alot of them.  I think you know you have a successful product when it is easy to find mods and upgrades to make it better.  The simplicity of the design is its strength.  There are some still here in Santa Rosa that we lease to UPS every year for Christmas short trip deliveries.  The perfect application for an electric vehicle. 

Batteries are fickle forms of energy storage in long multi battery strings.   

Len_Dreyer

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #98 on: 5 Feb 2011, 06:38 pm »
Did you drive the truck?  We sold alot of them.  I think you know you have a successful product when it is easy to find mods and upgrades to make it better.  The simplicity of the design is its strength.  There are some still here in Santa Rosa that we lease to UPS every year for Christmas short trip deliveries.  The perfect application for an electric vehicle. 

Batteries are fickle forms of energy storage in long multi battery strings.

No, I haven't driven one yet.

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #99 on: 7 Feb 2011, 07:54 pm »
Len,

The line is discontinued.  If you have any tech questions and concerns pass them on to me and I'll be happy to get you some answers from the service department.  My favorite ZAP product is the Xebra Truck.  I borrow the shop truck for around the house projects all the time.