Bryston Headphone Interface

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DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #560 on: 6 Jan 2012, 05:52 pm »
Have a pair of the Hi-Fi Man HE500's and Audeze LCD2 on the way for testing.

james


My guess is that all of us with orthoplanars are going to be very, very interested in what your verdict will be on these headphones when used with the BHA-1. As a very happy LCD-2 owner I going to be particularly attentive.

Dave

MellowVelo

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #561 on: 6 Jan 2012, 06:06 pm »
Have a pair of the Hi-Fi Man HE500's and Audeze LCD2 on the way for testing.

james

James,

Thanks so much for following up on this after people expressed concern. This is the epitome of good customer service. Like others, I eagerly await your findings.

Fsonicsmith

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #562 on: 6 Jan 2012, 06:49 pm »
I very much appreciate all of the information and feedback from James Tanner in this thead, but frankly, I am a bit concerned. Very concerned. My impression is that Stuart Taylor is the designer, engineer, and decision maker when it comes to this effort. My impression also is that the ultimate product going to the manufacturing plant has been driven by laboratory testing much more than listening. Deciding to reduce power output at low impedances for the sake of lower measured distortion while James frankly admits that a wide range of phones have not been tried with the latest design is "Exhibit A" behind my impression. What happened to the design objective trumpeted by James 20 or so pages ago that the BHA-1 has been designed with newly popular orthostatic and hard to drive phones in mind?
Granted, the debate is tired and wearisome as to the role of laboratory testing and subjective listening and their values in audiophile product design and I don't want to re-hash them here or now. I do have the opinion that lab testing is critical but I also have the opinion that not every aspect of audio reproduction is currently susceptable to objective testing. Sometimes a change of resistor or capacitor or circuit layout causes an unanticipated change in subjective sound that defies any attempt at measurement. Sometimes a less expensive part produces better sound. To me, "connecting with the music" is the most difficult and elusive of qualities in high-end gear and whatever may or may not contribute to such quality is not capable of measurement. Bryston has been criticised in some camps for producing (sometimes) sterile or cold gear. Rightly or wrongly, I don't care to say. I will say that James Tanner's tag line could not be more accurate-a demo here is imperative.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #563 on: 6 Jan 2012, 06:56 pm »
I very much appreciate all of the information and feedback from James Tanner in this thead, but frankly, I am a bit concerned. Very concerned. My impression is that Stuart Taylor is the designer, engineer, and decision maker when it comes to this effort. My impression also is that the ultimate product going to the manufacturing plant has been driven by laboratory testing much more than listening. Deciding to reduce power output at low impedances for the sake of lower measured distortion while James frankly admits that a wide range of phones have not been tried with the latest design is "Exhibit A" behind my impression. What happened to the design objective trumpeted by James 20 or so pages ago that the BHA-1 has been designed with newly popular orthostatic and hard to drive phones in mind?
Granted, the debate is tired and wearisome as to the role of laboratory testing and subjective listening and their values in audiophile product design and I don't want to re-hash them here or now. I do have the opinion that lab testing is critical but I also have the opinion that not every aspect of audio reproduction is currently susceptable to objective testing. Sometimes a change of resistor or capacitor or circuit layout causes an unanticipated change in subjective sound that defies any attempt at measurement. Sometimes a less expensive part produces better sound. To me, "connecting with the music" is the most difficult and elusive of qualities in high-end gear and whatever may or may not contribute to such quality is not capable of measurement. Bryston has been criticised in some camps for producing (sometimes) sterile or cold gear. Rightly or wrongly, I don't care to say. I will say that James Tanner's tag line could not be more accurate-a demo here is imperative.

I agree some things are difficult to measure but over the many years we have been doing this I have found there is definitely a correlation between the accepted measure distortions and the listening experience.  To decide that something that measures better sounds worse is simply not something I have experienced over the 40 so years I have been doing this.

james

won ton on

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #564 on: 6 Jan 2012, 07:14 pm »
ok guys stupid question of the day. is 1000 mW equal to 1 watt

BrysTony

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #565 on: 6 Jan 2012, 07:36 pm »
ok guys stupid question of the day. is 1000 mW equal to 1 watt

Exactly!

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #566 on: 6 Jan 2012, 07:46 pm »
I agree some things are difficult to measure but over the many years we have been doing this I have found there is definitely a correlation between the accepted measure distortions and the listening experience.  To decide that something that measures better sounds worse is simply not something I have experienced over the 40 so years I have been doing this.

james
For almost as long as James has been doing this, I have been buying Bryston gear, and doing so with great satisfaction. Only recently have I become interested in using headphones regularly, and for this reason I have been looking forward to the BHA-1.

I have long known that the headphone jack on my BP is very good. However, I discovered that it is does not make the various headphones I've used, sound as good as on an amp with lesser distortion measurements, in my case a relatively inexpensive Schiit Lyr. Because of the superb quality of other Bryston gear I naturally am expecting the BHA-1 to outperform th BP jack and the Lyr, and with luck a lot of other alternatives.

I share, however, the concerns expressed by others about the changed measurements of the BHA-1, not only because of the potential loss of power needed by planar headphones, but also because of the lack of testing the amp in the context of the headphone market. Not only would it be advisable to see how it performs on HE and LCD models, as James will be doing, but it seems to me that it also would make sense to compare the BHA-1 against competing headphone amps, such as Headroom's top models and the Burson.

One of the things I've learned so far about headphones is that an amp that may have great measurements is likely to be great for pro work, but be ignored by headphone afficianadoes.

At the end of the day, the market will decide, as James well knows, but the Bryston fan club, of which I am a long-time member, would hate to see the headphone community turn thumbs down on the BHA-1 when it comes out of the gates.

Fsonicsmith

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #567 on: 6 Jan 2012, 08:40 pm »
Well, here is the dirty little truth about headphone amps (and let me come right out and say it's only my opinion and take it as one anonymous guy's subjective opinion and nothing more); headphone amps don't do much and mostly sound boring. I suspect most of the problem is with headphones themselves and not the amps. Since the transducers are right up against the head and ears, the sound is constrained. No room acoustics. We headphone enthusiasts have some compelling and misdirected notion that if a headphone amp has a huge case and is filled with lots of goodies it will provide us with what we have been heretofore lacking, that with lot of power or some other voodoo/hocus-pocus (huge tubes jutting out like Woo or Zana Deux or any number of others, wires going everywhere and nowhere as in the Single Power fiasco), the gates of audio nirvana will open and our cans will now have all the unconstrained dynamics and sonic glory that were previously constrained and hidden (sorry for the flowery prose). That is the real nature of the beast. All that said, I do still think that a well designed, powerful amp with low output impedence can make many headphones sound their best. And now back to the BHA-1. We shall see.

myview

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #568 on: 6 Jan 2012, 09:55 pm »
Hi James,

Thank you for the effort in arranging to get the HE-500 and LCD2 for testing.  It is, however, quite well-known in the headphone community that these 2 phones are much less of a load to drive as compared to the HE-6.  I have both the LCD-2 and HE-6 and can subjectively confirm half of that saying.  The manufacturer Hifiman which makes the HE series states quite openly that HE-6 (the current top model in its range) is much more power-hungry than HE-500 - this can kind of confirm the other half of that saying.  I am not saying the world should revolve round the HE-6, but it is indeed an important benchmark to measure how powerful an amp is.  Since you are getting the HE-500, why not also get the HE-6?  If the BHA-1 can adequately drive the HE-6, it very likely can drive any in-production headphone (save electrostatics) in the world.


Hi

The unit will be available with either male or female.

I only had the HE 6 on loan so I do not have a pair at this point.

James

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #569 on: 6 Jan 2012, 10:31 pm »
Hi James,

Thank you for the effort in arranging to get the HE-500 and LCD2 for testing.  It is, however, quite well-known in the headphone community that these 2 phones are much less of a load to drive as compared to the HE-6.  I have both the LCD-2 and HE-6 and can subjectively confirm half of that saying.  The manufacturer Hifiman which makes the HE series states quite openly that HE-6 (the current top model in its range) is much more power-hungry than HE-500 - this can kind of confirm the other half of that saying.  I am not saying the world should revolve round the HE-6, but it is indeed an important benchmark to measure how powerful an amp is.  Since you are getting the HE-500, why not also get the HE-6?  If the BHA-1 can adequately drive the HE-6, it very likely can drive any in-production headphone (save electrostatics) in the world.

It sounds to me that some of these phones should be driven from a power amplifier?

james

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #570 on: 7 Jan 2012, 12:15 pm »
It sounds to me that some of these phones should be driven from a power amplifier?

james

Out of curiosity, I looked at the HiFiMAN website for details on the HE-6.  It's sensitivity rating is very low - which would seem to call for higher power.  Interestingly enough, the HiFiMAN website implies that it would be well matched with a 2-watt/ch headphone amplifier.
 
Freqency Response: 8 to 65 KHz
Impedence: 50 Ohm
Efficiency: 83.5 DB

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #571 on: 7 Jan 2012, 05:04 pm »
Well, here is the dirty little truth about headphone amps (and let me come right out and say it's only my opinion and take it as one anonymous guy's subjective opinion and nothing more); headphone amps don't do much and mostly sound boring. I suspect most of the problem is with headphones themselves and not the amps. Since the transducers are right up against the head and ears, the sound is constrained. No room acoustics. We headphone enthusiasts have some compelling and misdirected notion that if a headphone amp has a huge case and is filled with lots of goodies it will provide us with what we have been heretofore lacking, that with lot of power or some other voodoo/hocus-pocus (huge tubes jutting out like Woo or Zana Deux or any number of others, wires going everywhere and nowhere as in the Single Power fiasco), the gates of audio nirvana will open and our cans will now have all the unconstrained dynamics and sonic glory that were previously constrained and hidden (sorry for the flowery prose). That is the real nature of the beast. All that said, I do still think that a well designed, powerful amp with low output impedence can make many headphones sound their best. And now back to the BHA-1. We shall see.

Thanks, Fsonicsmith, for this comment. It has been my experience, limited though it is, that while headphone amps make a difference, confirms yours that that difference pales by comparison with the difference made by headphones themselves. Perhaps this is why so many headphone enthusiasts buy multiple pairs. With the exception of the high end Stax, it seems you may get a bigger bang out of your buck buying additional cans than buying a high end amp.

But your comment also reinforces the basic point about headphones - by their very nature they are not like listening to speakers. The experience can be very good, indeed, but it is a different one. It makes sense to demand that good headphones (together with good headphone amps) be accurate etc., etc., but it is not reasonable, I believe, to compare the headphone experience directly with that of one's main system.

For me, the chief attraction of the headphone experience is to take it in its own terms. Fsconicsmith, you say, rightly, headphones inevitably have a constrained sound. Depending on the gear you use, that constrained sound can feel very intimate, warm, and most pleasing, which may be why so many headphone enthusiasts like tube amps, and headphones that add to or enhance that kind of sound. For example, many admire the accuracy of HD800s, but it seems only a minority love them.

As to the BHA-1, in terms of the tastes I personally have developed in headphone use, if this new amp is very accurate in all ways, but detracts from rather than enhances the intimacy of the headphone experience I have come to prefer, then I probably will give it a pass. I had a headphone amp that did this (a Grace Designs m902 which is seldom mentioned in the headphone community) that was pricer than the BHA-1, and no doubt was most excellent, but wasn't for me. I gave it to a person doing pro work, which made it perfect for his use, but not mine. I hope, therefore, that the BHA-1 targets the headphone community rather than the pro market.

Dave

DaveNote

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Vipers

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #573 on: 10 Jan 2012, 08:30 pm »
Well after a lot of reading and demoing I've decided to order today a pair of Grado PS1000's in anticipation of the BHA-1 :thumb:

Although until the BHA-1 is available I'm hoping the SP3 will do a pretty good job, has anyone ever tried Grado's own headphone amp?

Any news James on when we can expect the BHA-1?

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #574 on: 10 Jan 2012, 09:15 pm »
Well after a lot of reading and demoing I've decided to order today a pair of Grado PS1000's in anticipation of the BHA-1 :thumb:

Although until the BHA-1 is available I'm hoping the SP3 will do a pretty good job, has anyone ever tried Grado's own headphone amp?

Any news James on when we can expect the BHA-1?

Vipers, I bought a Grado headphone amp many years ago. It was the most egregiously built piece of garbage I have ever owned. And it had a terrible hum. I took it back to the dealer and exchanged it for a V-Cans, which I subsequently traded for a Creek, both of which were far better. I have owned a Grace Designs m902, which was excellent, but did not have the sound I wanted. I run a Schiit Lyr now, which is the best I have had so far, but I would prefer a solid state amp if it were able to perform as well as the Lyr. In any case, I would recommend a Grado amp only to those I dislike.

Dave

SHV

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #575 on: 10 Jan 2012, 10:15 pm »
Vipers, I bought a Grado headphone amp many years ago. It was the most egregiously built piece of garbage I have ever owned. And it had a terrible hum. I took it back to the dealer and exchanged it for a V-Cans, which I subsequently traded for a Creek, both of which were far better. I have owned a Grace Designs m902, which was excellent, but did not have the sound I wanted. I run a Schiit Lyr now, which is the best I have had so far, but I would prefer a solid state amp if it were able to perform as well as the Lyr. In any case, I would recommend a Grado amp only to those I dislike.

Dave

Might also look at the Headroom amps:

http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/amplifiers.php

I have a balanced amp that is about eight years old and is going strong.  This is the newest in that series:

http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-balanced-ultra-desktop-amp-buda.php

I am waiting for reviews of the new Bryston, esp with high power demand transducers to see how that works out.

Steve

Vipers

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #576 on: 10 Jan 2012, 10:20 pm »
I would recommend a Grado amp only to those I dislike.
Dave

Thanks Dave, I actually contacted Grado and apparently they don't make the amp anymore and recomended that I look at Schiit also.

mkaiser

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #577 on: 10 Jan 2012, 10:35 pm »
DaveNote/Vipers,

Graham Slee is also a great headamp manufacturer. Graham now makes a tube amp called the Solo Ultra Linear at affordable price to performance.

DaveNote, based on reading your posts i would recommend you try to find a dealer who carries Graham Slee. I believe the sound signature you are after lies with them.

Mark

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #578 on: 10 Jan 2012, 11:00 pm »
DaveNote/Vipers,

Graham Slee is also a great headamp manufacturer. Graham now makes a tube amp called the Solo Ultra Linear at affordable price to performance.

DaveNote, based on reading your posts i would recommend you try to find a dealer who carries Graham Slee. I believe the sound signature you are after lies with them.

Mark

Thanks, Mark. I'll see if I can find a local Graham Slee dealer. Because I like Bryston equipment so much and prefer solid state gear, I'm hoping the BHA-1 will outperform the Lyr. But like others, I'm a bit hesitant because of James's recently published power ratings on the BHA-1. Yet I am holding out hope because I have yet to be disappointed by buying Bryston.

Dave

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #579 on: 10 Jan 2012, 11:05 pm »
Thanks Dave, I actually contacted Grado and apparently they don't make the amp anymore and recomended that I look at Schiit also.

Very interesting, Vipers. I was disappointed in my Lyr at first. For reasons unknown, it had an irritating hum. However, eventually it faded to the point that it is not noticeable at my listening levels. The makers explanation was that tubes are weird. Not much of a comfort, and one of the reasons I prefer SS.

Dave