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Industry Circles => LampizatOr => Topic started by: wisnon on 15 Oct 2014, 09:26 pm

Title: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 15 Oct 2014, 09:26 pm
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=801119686606028&id=341207619263906

Part three.

Take a read and LIKE the page if you find it interesting.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 15 Oct 2014, 10:06 pm
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=797747880276542&id=341207619263906

and

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=792775320773798&id=341207619263906

Parts 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: worldcat on 15 Oct 2014, 11:56 pm
I was wondering how the sophias would sound in the Big 7 :nono:
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 16 Oct 2014, 12:52 am
Will have to see what is said about the Lampi rectifier.  I got my Lampi and have work to do before unpacking.  Going to start with the stock before dropping in the WE 274b and the RCA 45s.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 2 Nov 2014, 04:54 pm
Part 4: 101Ds

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=806085616109435&id=341207619263906
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 2 Nov 2014, 04:55 pm
More rolling feedback from the UK: (page 9)

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32378-Lampizator-Level-7&p=593054
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 20 Nov 2014, 06:15 am
Late to the party here, but will start adding some feedback as well once I've had a chance to listen for a while through a variety of different tubes.   Have a couple different sets each of 6A3's (GE; Tung Sol), 2A3's (Kenrad dark glass; '52 RCA), 45 ('40s National Union ST-14), 101D's (stock psvane; psvane WE replica; WE NOS metal base), 300B's (TJ Full Music SE carbon plate) and a few different rectifiers (stock; WE nos 274B; psvane 274B WE replica; nos tung sol 5ar4; bendix 5r4wgb; Mullard CV378 '66) which I look forward to reporting on.  Been holding the power tube constant (stock) and trying the others for extended sessions.  Spent the most time with the stock psvane 101D's, GE 6A3's, the 2A3's, NU 45's, and just starting to listen with the psvane WE replica which may need some hours on it to break in.  Have the 2nd WE 101D coming shortly so that I can use a well matched pair of metal base (omg what is going on w the pricing of these tubes?? is that you guys pushing the market  :icon_surprised:).  The quick summary so far is that the National Union 45's are the most "perfect" and well balanced of all the tubes, sound gorgeous yet have fantastic clarity, extension, separation, and very controlled bass.  These are my clear left brain favorites.  My right brain favorites so far are definitely the Ken-rad's - sweet, involving, emotional, bass is not as well controlled as the NatU's and not quite the same clarity, but these are "moving" to listen to.  Definitely put the psvane 101D (regular) and the RCA 2A3's into a different category, and the GE 6A3's are in between these two categories, leaning closer towards the Ken-rad's than any others.  All these tubes are quite well matched (have a tester here for checking).  The TJ Full Music 300B's while sounding very good in some amps in the past also did not impress so not going to spend more time with those.  Will continue to report back on the others before moving on to the rectifier tubes.

Lastly, YMMV.  My system is neutral to lean in the low/mid bass, but very transparent and fast so that will no doubt affect the absolute impressions, so will try to provide relative perspectives as well (Lampizator B7 -> Miyajima Wo1 pre -> ASR Emitter II amp -> modded Quad 57's).
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 20 Nov 2014, 12:01 pm
Fascinating!
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 20 Nov 2014, 12:16 pm
Have you tried Globe 45s?  Where do you live?

Also, anyone using 6a3s with what look like springs on the top plate?  I have pairs of those and no springs.  My Bakelite base tubes are here tomorrow or so.  Also a U52 Rectifier to compete with the WE 274b I have.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 20 Nov 2014, 01:51 pm
I've not tried globe 45's, but as a general take away (always exceptions), the 45's are probably may the best tube grouping so far.  I have some of the Cunningham CX-345's (balloon shape / "globe") arriving in a couple days.  In the NY area
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 20 Nov 2014, 02:31 pm
I am in Brooklyn.  I have basically all the tubes you have, save the 300bs.  I prefer the 101d WE's I have to the 45s in my system.  Could be the speakers I have. They give me that extra holographic sound I am looking for.  I have a bunch of globes I got from a tube contact of mine.  I may sell some tubes to fund a preamp purchase, but the 101ds and my 274b will not go.  U52 from Mullard coming shortly.  Also have a 5AR4 mullard to try as well.

Any Lampi people looking for 2A3s (JAN RCAs), 6A3s (Sylvania/RCAs) or 45 globes, feel free to reach out to me.

Shawn
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 22 Nov 2014, 08:37 am
Part 4, the recti roll!

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=820742874643709&id=341207619263906
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Angaria on 22 Nov 2014, 01:14 pm
May want to give the JJ2a3-40 a try - may fav 2a3 by far and not that expensive.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 24 Nov 2014, 04:04 am
I am going to sell off some of my tubes.  Keep a pair of 6A3s, globe 45s and my 101ds as I need to raise some cash.  I still cannot believe how good the WE 101ds sound.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 24 Nov 2014, 12:20 pm
Found this quote on an amp forum somewhere:

"Generically speaking, direct heated rectifiers sound sweeter in the mids. Those rectifiers with the highest voltage drop seem to sound the sweetest. The indirectly heated rectifiers, like GZ32 and GZ34, seem to yield more and tighter bass, but add a harshness to the mids. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, decisions, decisions... Try them all and you will find a favorite".

5R4 and 274bs tend to have big voltage drops and are directly heated.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 24 Nov 2014, 12:52 pm

Recti info :

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/rectifiers.html

https://www.kcanostubes.com/content/rectifier-comparison-and-interchangeability-chart

http://www.300guitars.com/articles/rectifier-tube-voltage-drop-chart/

http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/rectifiers.html

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 25 Nov 2014, 02:59 am
Tennis balls WEs are in.  The sound is different than with the STs.  I have not figured out which I like better.  There is more bass and it seems a bit more forward in the vocals, but I need to spend more time with the tennis balls to form a full opinion.  They need to burn in a bit too.  They are 95 years old after all. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 25 Nov 2014, 03:44 am
Ok.  I forgot I changed my USB cable last night.  Swapped back to the loaner I got (and will buy).  I am back to the dynamics I was looking for that I thought sounded different.  I think it is pretty close to the same sound with possibly more bass.  The 3d nature of the music could stop traffic. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 25 Nov 2014, 06:39 am
Aint nothing like the real thing, huh?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 25 Nov 2014, 06:39 am
How do you get the tennis globes to work, given the short pins of equal size?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 25 Nov 2014, 02:32 pm
The pins on my sockets are tight enough to work.  I also buit adapters using old UX tubes and UV tube sockets.  It really isn't hard.  I don't use the adapter because I hear no sound difference.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 25 Nov 2014, 04:55 pm
Ok.  I forgot I changed my USB cable last night.  Swapped back to the loaner I got (and will buy).  I am back to the dynamics I was looking for that I thought sounded different.  I think it is pretty close to the same sound with possibly more bass.  The 3d nature of the music could stop traffic.

Hi, what USB is this?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 26 Nov 2014, 04:37 am
DanaCables.  Pretty much changed all I thought I knew about USB cables.  It replaces a WyWires Silver USB cable which sounds terrible compared to the Dana.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 4 Dec 2014, 10:42 am
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=801119686606028&id=341207619263906

Part three.

Take a read and LIKE the page if you find it interesting.

Part 5:

https://www.facebook.com/#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=826873644030632&id=341207619263906
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shahed on 24 Dec 2014, 06:40 am
I have tried following tubes in my 2a3 two box level 7 dac: Electro Harmonix, Ken Rad, EML mesh plate and very recently Sophia Electric 300B carbon plate 2.5v version.

Both Ken Rad and Sophia Electric 2.5v 300B is significantly better than EH and clearly better than EML meshies to my ears in my system. Ken Rad is tiny bit more warm than Sophia Electric and has slight less details. While Sophia Electric 300B has more inner resolution and almost as warm as Ken Rad. Treble extension is slightly better on the Sophias compare to Ken rads.

So far, my favorite is Sophia Electric 300B carbon plate.  Btw, I just received the Sophias yesterday, it has less than 3/4 hours on it. So I believe with some burn in, it should sound even better.

But I've a question. The two box level 7 dac has its tube socket pretty close together and the Sophias are quite fat. As a result when I put the Sophia 300B in the dac, they are very tightly placed and touching each other like the picture below. I want to know if the two tubes are touching each other, is it bad for tube life or compromising sonics in any way?


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=111080)

 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 25 Dec 2014, 10:16 am
Can you lean them apart just a bit so they dont touch? I cant see that touching can be a positive.

Also, what are the other tubes you refer to, for example the Kenrad and EH? Surely they are not all 300b 2.5v tubes, as I see you refer to EML 45s.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 9 Jan 2015, 01:53 pm
For anyone using / planning on using WE101D's globes with the small UV4 pins, a new adapter is being manufactured in Asia and listed on eBay now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191476590105?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D191476590105%26_rdc%3D1
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 9 Jan 2015, 02:23 pm
Great find Silverlight.  You can do the same thing with an old UV4 tube socket and a UX tube base, but the cost will be about the same as this and you have to wire it up yourself.  Will also work for the ST shape 101ds.  I am going to order a pair so I don't have to futz with my sockets anymore.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: jriggy on 9 Jan 2015, 02:24 pm
Hey Shahed,

Glad to see your system moving forward.

If there is nothing else you can do, maybe you could talk to Steve at Herbie's Audio Labs and see if he can tell you something. He should be able to let you know if you can use one of his small disks of teflon or something else to rest between them. Or custom make a disk made of the material that touches the tubes from his tube dampeners... Seems like with them touching, it would create unwanted vibration through the entire surface of the glass. You should be able to wedge just the right piece of material between them...and Steve will know.

Best of luck.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 10 Jan 2015, 11:08 pm
I have about all the tubes and many others being posted about.
From top to bottom.
The 101D is the most detailed of the bunch and the pavane metal base and the we101D are out the same
I have some brass sockets made for adapters. But you can get them to work without.
Given. I am a detail analytical guy I first fell in love with them. But grew tired and the intense details
For me the Sophia electric is a nice tube and they seem to span a wide ways in sound from various types of sound. The carbons are a bit rolled off on top so it a trade below in air and staging but the they do look cool.
The other se 300 B are better for me. There is a new 2.5 volt I dk not have as yet. But a trusted ear seats the edge the 6a3.
Next is the 2A3 I have a few pairs none of witch were a favorite
The eml makes some really good tubes. My fav is the anniversary globes as they give the details but more meaty then the eml 45 bottle tops.
Next is the 6A3. This is the tube to get. But not the cunnunghams. As they are nice they are just too laid back for me. Now the 6A3 is a numerous tube to enjoy. They're is many versions and each has a variation of perfection. Again my views
You can get the sylvanias or Tung sols. Both are good
Weather green letters or white but strong testing yields better sound
Even the 6b4G and socket adapters is fine and cheap too.
I also have Elrogs 300B the current fav for now.
Now for us one tube recto people this to is cool to roll. But it must be new or like new. No 80 year old fav for me. Eml or Sophia electric is both very good
And aloud it mesh they all have effect. The big 7 is marvel of a dac and it can be transformed to so many styles of presentation. It has to about the most Versatel dac out there.
One to bother with are out there. The small 6A3 new stinks it's a short tube and needs a socket adaptor it's just not good for men
Also the sventka tubes also
There is varitinns of a vt52 not good either
It's all a gamble in rolling but the lampi is not.
And being able to change the mood by tube rolling is a level of bliss I never new existed until this dac.
Luke keep playing and keep making us happy.
I have many more tubes not posted about as well it's a fun ride and keeps one excited and interested.

Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 11 Jan 2015, 03:46 am
Thanks for the write up.  I have a lot of the 6a3s.  They are not my favorite of the types.  That said, do you use the ones with circular springs at the top or flat tops?   The Cunningham/RCA/Sylvania should all sound the same as they are from the same factory as I understand.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shahed on 11 Jan 2015, 04:19 am
Thanks Jason for the tip! I've been using this adapter from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221607723006. That did the trick. However, Sophia Electric 300B carbon was picking up vibration/rattling noises. So I've returned it. My Lampizator dac is being updated to support 45 tubes this week. So, I'll try some 45 tubes soon.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shahed on 11 Jan 2015, 04:22 am
Which tubes in Lampi level 7 will give the most warm, musical sound with punch bass? So for the ones I tried, Sophia Electric 300B carbons were the best but Ken Rad 2A3 was very close and probably a tiny bit more musical and warm. I didn't like EML 2a3 mesh.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 11 Jan 2015, 04:42 am
Alrainbow - great feedback on the various tubes.  I've tried a few different 6A3's, they're excellent, but did prefer Kenrad 2A3's (per Shahed, I did find them warm and musical as well).  I think the main point which Alrainbow made well is that the Lampi7 if fantastic for allowing great tubes to shine with their respective strengths, and then the rest is system-dependent in terms of how the best of each type of tube will perform in any given system with respect to "synergy" or "matching" or emphasizing particular aspects.  Will be trying a series of other tubes as well (some commented on here and a few others), and will pass along feedback but definitely with a big "YMMV".  I've switched up the rest of my system since I last used the Lampi and so wouldn't be surprised if my preferences have changed for example.  Most importantly, really appreciate like the others that we have the opportunity to roll so many tube types, its provides many degrees of freedom.
happy listening!
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 11 Jan 2015, 12:39 pm
Warm sound? Vintage 45 globes like Cunningham CX345 or RCA 245.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 11 Jan 2015, 01:43 pm
Tube sound is what we like I do not feel some are better than others.  Although some are further from my desires. 
On a side note lampi has a new product called a head dac . I have one it also uses a driver tube . More to roll.
My favorite is the vt99 tung sol . 

 I agree with th cunninghams is warm but it also puts you further from the music as well. Not for me too much tubby sound but very plesent to the brain.

 I have about 12 pairs of 6A3 and at least 5 pairs of sylvanias . Various shapes in pairs . At some point I'll put a sound signature to each type . But they do vary a bit . I also have now 4 tube Amps to roll with so the 300B can be rolled in one as well as various drivers . Also various el34 for the ES headphone amps.
The lampi is a marvel by itself . It fun to find the type that fits the mood or setting up a system for the perfect sound.
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 24 Jan 2015, 10:05 am
Hi,

Does a Mullard GZ32/CV593 rectifier work for Big7? Are there significant diffence between tennis ball 101D's and other versions? Thanks.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 24 Jan 2015, 10:57 pm
GZ32 works. Basically any 1.5-3 amp recti works.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 24 Jan 2015, 11:38 pm
I have two pairs of 101D tenissi balls. My he we101D nos and the ps vane metal bass.  The ps vane had the signature perfect for the nos.  and given the nos are nearing 80 years old
They do perform very well.  But I feel the ps vane is more detailed overall.  Now given you want that hyper detail it's fine in the B7. If you have a one tube Recti that matters as well. 
But the signatures remains but how much and where we sit changes
Hope this helps. 
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 24 Jan 2015, 11:48 pm
finally got around to swapping in some Western Electrics (waiting for the good UV4 to UX4 adapters from Hong Kong), and was waiting on the WE 274B for this as well.  They are definitely my favorite so far, but the rectifier made the biggest difference.  The 101D's were a nice change, but I have a number of others yet to try to compare like the psvane metal base 101D (so will reserve judgment on preferences).  the WE274B magically transformed the sound in a way I haven't experienced before, really pulled into the music  :o  Edging closer to that feeling I get from vinyl...




(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113631)


Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 12:50 am
Try the eml 274B mesh.  It's a fav for me.  The eml line of tubes overall covers a good ground of sound types
With all of them being good for the type.  Sophia electric as a Recti is also good for B7
My fave rite tube so far is the Elrogs 300B. But they are very far from a 101D sound.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 25 Jan 2015, 01:42 am
Have not tried the EML yet, but I agree that the WE 274b really pushed it up a notch.  Anyone try the Sylvania 274b yet?  I have one, but have not popped it in yet.  The U52 from Brimar is not as good as the WE 274b in the amp. 

I have 101D tennis balls and 101d ST shapes.  I prefer the tennis balls, but it is a marginal difference.  That said, I am waiting for the OK to let people know about the other tube I have tried that was better than the 101d to me.  That said, it is another WE tube.

Shawn
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 25 Jan 2015, 01:48 am
May try the Elrog's at some point once I narrow down the current inventory (they're not cheap... http://www.trueaudiophile.com/elrog-300b-vacuum-tube-hand-made-in-germany-on-telefunken-machines/ (http://www.trueaudiophile.com/elrog-300b-vacuum-tube-hand-made-in-germany-on-telefunken-machines/)), but have plenty of fun ahead to keep me busy when I have time to try the various tubes I've got here.  I don't have an alternate use for 300B's, so only have one pair around here from a prior amp and didn't like them as much as some of the others I've tried.  The nice thing is that I'm not feeling the need any more to experiment so something's working right at this point which is a great thing.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Audioclyde on 25 Jan 2015, 01:58 am
While I'm using in different equipment, IMHO the Sylvania 274B is very, very good--pretty darn close to the WE 274B (which isn't surprising given my understanding of their heritage).

I have an EML 274B with really low hours if anyone is interested; I personally much prefer my Sylvania JAN 274B.

I have Takatsuki 300B's headed my way for use in my new amps (once the amps are broken in)--I couldn't afford a pair of the matching 274B's.  When my wallet recovers, I want to try the Elrog 300b's also.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 01:59 am
The eml 45 bottle is nice but it's annaversary globe is better in low end impact. Also an overall impact or meet as some say.
But if you like the 101D have you tried any 6A3. They are a step up in relax sound but main gain the details.
Also I have the U.S. airforce 596 it can be bought as real new nos. it too is very good. But in pairs I recommend it over any Sophia electric Recti
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 02:05 am
The eml 45 bottle is nice but it's annaversary globe is better in low end impact. Also an overall impact or meet as some say.
But if you like the 101D have you tried any 6A3. They are a step up in relax sound but main gain the details.
Also I have the U.S. airforce 596 it can be bought as real new nos. it too is very good. But in pairs I recommend it over any Sophia electric Recti

Is the eml solid or mesh ?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 25 Jan 2015, 03:33 am
Once again, in my system, 6A3s are not as good as 101ds.   I will point out that Silverlight's 101Ds are the metal base WE.  Probably made in the teens or early twenties.  Mine are bakealite bases.   FYI  Gopher may have another tube cooking as well.  These cost a whopping $15 each and are supposed to be awesome. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shawbros3 on 25 Jan 2015, 04:47 am
Doesn't the WE 274b cost an arm and a leg :o  If it's the best one so far of the bunch, someone might want to try out its cheaper cousin the WE 422a.  That tube really made my Melody Preamp sing.  Also, the Mullard CV378 fat bottle was a damn good one as well.  I wish I could have tried the 274b tube family in my Big 7 when I had it, but mine ran 6x5's.

Anyone try the EML 300B-XLS or the AVVT 32B SL's in the output seat?  Those two worked well in my Coincident amps.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 25 Jan 2015, 01:22 pm
Hi, guys, thanks a lot for the response. I asked about GZ32 and WE101D since there are NOS available. Especially GZ32 with huge stocks online. I suppose it is safer to start with NOS rather than used ones. I have already ordered one GZ32 NOS made by Telefunken. I will then pick from either WE101D's or Psvane complete replica.  :lol:



Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 01:55 pm
The metal base is the we101d. Most feel this is better than the white base. But agin your choice. They both are a hyper detail analytical presentation
Enjoy
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 25 Jan 2015, 02:06 pm
Not sure what you mean Al.  Metal base WE were made from production until about 1928-1930.  1930 to 1940 were bakalite base, but same tubes.  I have heard pairs of both.  They sound identical to me.  Metal base versions are a bit harder to find, but according to a friend, also are a lot higher to find with good testing outputs.  As always YMMV. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 03:15 pm
Sorry I meant the pavane metal base are the better ones. I have a pair of the black Bakelite base ones.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 25 Jan 2015, 03:41 pm
Once again, in my system, 6A3s are not as good as 101ds.   I will point out that Silverlight's 101Ds are the metal base WE.  Probably made in the teens or early twenties.  Mine are bakealite bases.   FYI  Gopher may have another tube cooking as well.  These cost a whopping $15 each and are supposed to be awesome.

Which $15 tube is that?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 25 Jan 2015, 04:20 pm
There are two versions of Psvane 101D. The grey metal base version is the complete replica:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113669)

The other much cheaper version is white bakelite base.

I am considering either the metal base replica or the real NOS WE 101D.  :lol:
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 07:58 pm
Ok I cannot he the photos to load. 
But I have the metal and the nos.
the metals bests the the nos. 
how in overall details and clarity.
Although the nos does have more weight
But the 101d is a detail tube so the ps avane replica metal bass is the one I would choose.
As we all are fans of the old tubes myself included we should not become delusional as to what is better. Not all that is vintage is better at least not for me. 
But again this is my choice. And with piano and percussion. The paino is a complex percussion instarsmint to hear. It has overtones as well as first impact. So details that decay fast are not always the best but too slow stinks too. 
This was done with a woo Wes all tricked out tubes
And yes some nos as in the vt99 tungsol and the pavane eml34
With the stax 009. Headphones.
Woth this combo there is no where to hide imperfections.
The B7 is a great dac for sure.  I have a ps audio DS as cool as it is the level of drop is pretty far
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 08:01 pm
Music used was both pcm and dsd. 
For anyone who has the tumbleweed album
Try come down in time. It's so up close and personnel it's amazing with this combo.
And amoreena as well. Although the first one is just a cut above in quality
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 08:18 pm
Also for what's it's worth with certain tubes the Sophia electric princess 274B bests out the eml mesh cleanly.
Yet thus combo is far better in my woo amp.
The tube rolling game almost makes no sense at times.
The princess is just more abiut being there Ina big way. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 25 Jan 2015, 11:24 pm
Hi is this the Sophia Electric 274b, or Sophia electric Princess 274b mesh? Thanks
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 11:41 pm
It has a black base and seems to be a mesh.  It seems best so far.  I have adew others to try. Again this is all conjecture from me. And I am not so called expert just a guy like most who here who has a bunch of tubes and understands the changes between them.  I will,Ty others and get some notes going. But one the g is clear the recti mattersplenty and the combo of output doES too. So it's complex more than before.  And my hea dac when it comes is like this and has a driver tube as well.  But hey that's the fun of this. To roll tubes and hear our beloved music all,over agin is never work but a joy .  As I own a msb stack it plays great but there is little to do in change. Although there is some filters but they fall very short of what tubes can do. Hope this is understood.
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Jan 2015, 11:58 pm
Aslo some tubes like the 101d and the prinsess gets me so close I hear the tape hiss. Now this is always a good sign of greater details. 
When my aprtment is done ot will hOuse two infinity setups. One is the RS1B and the other the infinity IRS V.
Now this does not make me an expert and I a,not but it does help to add to my views with both headphones and speakers.
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 26 Jan 2015, 02:55 am
So re the WE 101D metal base versus the PSVane 101D metal base replica's, definitely a very different sound.  Tried the psvane tonight for the first time, and so have to warn they're not burned in.  I had them run for a few hours before listening, but I'm sure they'll need more.  The psvanes are definitely more detailed in the highs (more extended) and there's more bass and deeper - more technically perfect for sure.  Much more "modern" or closer-to-solid-state type of sound (not judging this as better or worse).  However the ease and natural presentation of the original WE's is my personal preference, and the soundstage and greater depth to the presentation is seductive (and the sound has a meatier, more emotionally impactful sound).  The psvanes in my system sound more like hi fi playback, audiophile award winners, but the old WE's brings a different "life" to the music.  Not as perfect, but extremely engaging and pushes me to my right brain and away from analysis.  All just my experience with this particular pair of tubes given their age and as has been pointed out, may or may not be predictable or extendable to another pair.  I'll test them with the Amplitrex here at some point here to get a sense for their output and how well matched they are.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 26 Jan 2015, 09:43 am
Silverlight,

You are basically saying the same thing as AL, though you have different conclusions on what you both PREFER.

Nice to see this confirmation.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 26 Jan 2015, 02:31 pm
Psvane 101d 1:1 replica and eml 5u4g are the default tubes in the new flagship golden gate. They are certainly among the best from tubes in current production. However, vintage tubes are always seductive.  :P
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 26 Jan 2015, 02:47 pm
Anyone tried a super 45 (VT-52)?  I am not buying anymore tubes, but thought I would ask if anyone had any experiences with them.  I would ask someone who does to post.

So, this is what I have to sell (and will post this in the for sale forum in a few days).  Offers accepted.  Includes paypal and shipping in the US:

OSRAM 5U4G tube (same internals as a U52.  Paper label is gone, so the tube is blank)  $150
Pair of RCA 45 Globe tubes $175 (generic boxes remaining)
Pair of NOS RCA 2A3 (Amplitrex tested and matched, but different year tubes. generic boxes.) $225
Pair of NOS Cunningham 6A3 tubes $125
Pair of GE 6A3 tubes $125 (generic box)
Pair of Sylvania 6A3 tubes $125

Maybe part with 1 pair of WE 101d ST shape (different years, same construction) make an offer.

Shawn

Shawn
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 26 Jan 2015, 03:03 pm
Lol I have a couple of pairs. They are ok but not winner along the lines of a 6a3. But now my B7 is new again with one Recti tube so I can try again lol. You need an adaptor as well. Of course I have them as well.
I can tell you about a tube I did not like. It's the carbon version of the 45 by Sophia electric. Nice tube but rolled off highs big time. To rolled off to me as in dull
They do not mJe them anymore from what I understand.
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 27 Jan 2015, 02:29 am
Withdrawing the 101Ds.  One to many low ball offers for me to deal with.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 30 Jan 2015, 03:06 am
Friend brought over some VT-52 tubes to try.  Data on the tube is here:  http://www.vt52.com/info/vt52/vt52_electrical.html.  I have tried them in 45 mode and 2A3 mode.  I think 2A3 worked better because of the added heater voltage.  Not as good as the 275A or 101D tubes I have used, but good in their own right.  I feel they compress the midrange slightly as compared to those tubes.  Not sure how much the VT-52s go for, but it has to be cheaper than the other Western Electric tubes. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 30 Jan 2015, 09:50 am
By structioner the 275A looks like the 6A3 cunninghams but a bigger inside. For the Cunningham globes or bottle new I both were nice but to relaxed for me.
The vt52 was an odd sound not plesing to me.  But I am at the odd end of the pool,in my taste . I like analitycal and detailed. It's what I call real again for me not saying its how we all should feel. So tubes that bring things forward and intense is my desire.  Less tube sound is where I am at.
Also the new revision of my B7 has chaged the tubes sounds a bit. Going from two to one recti and what ever else is done has changed the tube rolling sequence. They all still matter but no the same as before .

Just a few thoughts to add to this really cool thread. Let's keep,it going please .
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 30 Jan 2015, 03:45 pm
What rectifier are you using?  Oddly, I find that rolling the rectifier/tube combination actually matters.  A JAN 5U4G can sound better than the WE 274b with 6A3s. 

As I said in another thread.  I like a bit of technical, but I really want the sound to be there.  In your example of Elton John, I really want to hear the guitar string vibrations cutting the air.  That said, I don't want to lose the feel of the music for the sound of the pick.  I find the older 101Ds do that better for me.

The 275A is the WE answer to a 2A3 like tube (5v filament voltage).  I like it better than the 6A3s I have heard, but I haven't yet gotten to hear a pair of the Brimar 6A3s.  I may have found a single to complete my pair.  Now to actually by it.  Anyone here tried Brimar 6A3s? 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 30 Jan 2015, 08:36 pm
Friend brought over some VT-52 tubes to try.  Data on the tube is here:  http://www.vt52.com/info/vt52/vt52_electrical.html.  I have tried them in 45 mode and 2A3 mode.  I think 2A3 worked better because of the added heater voltage.  Not as good as the 275A or 101D tubes I have used, but good in their own right.  I feel they compress the midrange slightly as compared to those tubes.  Not sure how much the VT-52s go for, but it has to be cheaper than the other Western Electric tubes.
Prices are close to 6A3. They are a 7v aviation tube at altitude and 6.3v at sea level.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 30 Jan 2015, 10:25 pm
I tried them in the old B7. Not the new one
Ill try that over the weekend
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 1 Feb 2015, 04:01 am
My big7 should arrive soon.  :lol:

I've decided to go with Psvane 101D complete replica. There are NOS WE101D St for about $800/pair in my area but I am not sure about how it will perform. Many thanks to all for the inputs. My loudspeaker is DIY open baffle with Voxativ full range drivers with a bit help from dedicated woofers at the low frequencies. It is very relaxed, musical and dynamic and I guess it could handle a lot of details.

For the rectifier, my GZ32 should arrive soon as well. However, I am wondering how good a Psvane 274B complete replica (not the cheaper regular one) will be? Would it be close to the original? Anyone tried it already? I am trying to find a GEC U52 as well.

Thanks.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=114045)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=114046)
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 1 Feb 2015, 04:17 am
I have the psvane 101D replicas per above (metal base) and also have the psvane WE 274B replica.  I've not tried the latter yet, but can compare to the NOS WE274B (which I'm currently using as my benchmark) and provide some relative feedback.  Will put a few hours on it before listening and will provide a few notes.  Hopefully this weekend.


My big7 should arrive soon.  :lol:

I've decided to go with Psvane 101D complete replica. There are NOS WE101D St for about $800/pair in my area but I am not sure about how it will perform. Many thanks to all for the inputs. My loudspeaker is DIY open baffle with Voxativ full range drivers with a bit help from dedicated woofers at the low frequencies. It is very relaxed, musical and dynamic and I guess it could handle a lot of details.

For the rectifier, my GZ32 should arrive soon as well. However, I am wondering how good a Psvane 274B complete replica (not the cheaper regular one) will be? Would it be close to the original? Anyone tried it already? I am trying to find a GEC U52 as well.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 1 Feb 2015, 04:57 am
Thanks, Silverlight.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Audioclyde on 1 Feb 2015, 12:49 pm
Sleep_fox,

Different equipment and you may have already seen it, but there is a long thread reviewing rectifiers over on Head-Fi--titled something like 'Dubstep girl's massive rectifier review'--where the WE replica Psvane 274Bs are very favorbly talked about.

Best,

Randy
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 1 Feb 2015, 01:13 pm
They are good from my one experience with them.  That said a 40s Sylvania 274b is cheaper and is really nice.  Would imagine they are on par or close. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 1 Feb 2015, 01:39 pm
I think we all have our own perspective to what is good. There is a couple of pavane tubes I plan to purchase.
Also I am of the club that new made very close to real now as in ps vane replica are a better way to experience nostalgia in tube rolling and much cheaper . With that said tube rolling with real old nos or new nos if available is very much like playing vinyl . It's all about the past playing in the now . Something mythical or mystical. Was it really better then lol as we're older and I am going on 58 it just had to be hahahahaha .
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 1 Feb 2015, 03:45 pm
Randy, thanks. And yes I know the link. It is just too lengthy to follow.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread

I did follow its recommendation on GZ32 but  tried Telefonken made instead (on the way). I am seeking U52 (too many versions) just in case that 101D replica gets too analytical (Well it may help, it may not, that is part of the magic that makes tube rolling interesting). I may try WE422A some time but the original WE274B is certainly hard to find and costs a lot. 



Sleep_fox,

Different equipment and you may have already seen it, but there is a long thread reviewing rectifiers over on Head-Fi--titled something like 'Dubstep girl's massive rectifier review'--where the WE replica Psvane 274Bs are very favorbly talked about.

Best,

Randy
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Audioclyde on 1 Feb 2015, 03:55 pm
I'm running a Sylvania JAN 274B in my amp and really like it; so much so I bought a back up.  Not inexpensive but awfully good.  I actually prefer it in some ways to the more expensive EML 274B mesh that I also have.

I have 1 Wycombe fat bottle cv378, and hope to find a mate as I will need two when my SET mono's that are being made right now arrive.  I had a GEC U52--sounded great but shorted out on me, so I'm leary going that way given the cost of a pair.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 1 Feb 2015, 04:05 pm
Ok. The talks about Psvane WE274B 1:1 replica is around here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread/585

Looks like it is a great choice but it may need 200 hours of burning in.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 1 Feb 2015, 04:42 pm
Starts here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread/480
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 1 Feb 2015, 05:20 pm
Who here is using or has used the ps vane replica we300b. Great sound hyper detailed. It very microphonic in my woo WA5 amp. Now with headphones no big deal but wow of this was speakers.
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shadowlight on 1 Feb 2015, 06:53 pm
Any pointers for source where I can get Sylvania 274B from?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 1 Feb 2015, 07:36 pm
They pop up on Ebay fairly often.  I would wait for that.  Otherwise, contact http://www.vacuumtubes.com.  His prices are not perfect, but he finds things...
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shadowlight on 1 Feb 2015, 09:36 pm
They pop up on Ebay fairly often.  I would wait for that.  Otherwise, contact http://www.vacuumtubes.com.  His prices are not perfect, but he finds things...

Thx.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 19 Feb 2015, 04:57 am
Finally heard a 6A3 I like.  A pair of BRIMAR, made in England 6A3 tubes.  A bit more forward in the mid range than the 275As, but still a really nice sound.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 19 Feb 2015, 11:41 am
Where did you find those 6A3s?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 19 Feb 2015, 11:47 am
Pic please. I have a pair of vt52 an equivelent I think. No cap on top do yours have a cap ?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 19 Feb 2015, 04:48 pm
I have VT-52s and 6A3s.  This is looks like two VT-52s sandwiched together.  See the pics (not mine).


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115282)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115283)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115284)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115285)
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 19 Feb 2015, 05:07 pm
Thanks I might have a pair. I'll see tonight
They do look familiar but it could be the color as in rca or something.
I'll post a pic of mine as well
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sleep_fox on 22 Feb 2015, 05:22 am
Hi, I finally go with Psvane WE101D 1:1 replica and Brimar 5Z4GY rectifier. At the end of that rectifier rolling thread by Dubstep, people are stocking up this rectifier so I cann't help buying one also. I did buy a Psvane 274B replica but cann't wait for the burn in period and it is still siting at the closet.

My system is still under constant tweaking (which sadly is normal for diying loudspeaker), but I certainly believe that Big7 and the above tubes are right for me in terms of details, dynamics, and musicality. I do hear a lot of things unheard before and hear more clear images. Lots of thanks to every one! Cheers! 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: jbrrp1 on 21 Mar 2015, 11:10 pm
"FYI  Gopher may have another tube cooking as well.  These cost a whopping $15 each and are supposed to be awesome."

Has Gopher ever revealed this mystery tube?  I am curious, as I acquired a Big 7 a month ago and am tube rolling a fair bit now.  So far, I like Ken Rad 6A3's + Psvane WE 274B replica the best.  I have also tried the standard supplied Psvane 101D globes (I believe this is the second up in their line), a pair of National Union 45's, and I am currently breaking in a pair of Psvane WE 101D replicas (detailed, but maybe too much for my system and tastes).  Only tried the originally supplied Shuguang 274B at rectifier.

Anyone know the mystery tube?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 24 Mar 2015, 05:12 pm
CX-301

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-59-TESTED-GOOD-GLOBE-RCA-UX-201A-RADIO-TUBES-TYPE-01A-CUNNINGHAM-CX-301A-/311323352713?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item487c515e89
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Gopher on 24 Mar 2015, 07:17 pm
They are great with the right rectifier, but may be the single lease reliable tube I've ever encountered.   I have 5 and 4 are bad...  2 DOA,   2 died during usage...  They sound nice but I can't recommend them.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 25 Mar 2015, 12:06 am
Has anyone tried any of the SS recti ,s.  ????
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 27 Mar 2015, 05:47 pm
An FYI on the 01As.  Old radio guys swear by the below on these 01As with thoriated tungsten filaments.
REJUVENATION OF VACUUM TUBES
Lane S. Upton

With the ever increasing scarcity of old tubes, it is becoming more important that we try to save as many as possible. Over the past two years I have been experimenting with the rejuvenation of these older tubes. This work has been based primarily on present day techniques used at Eimac and on data given in various books published in the 1920's Using the methods described herein, I have had approximately 85% success in returning inactive tubes back to usable transconductance. The failures have primarily been due to filaments being burned out during application of the excessive voltages required. The tubes which failed either had filaments that had been weakened from long hours of operation, or were marginal at the weld joints. None of these failures were opened for investigation as they are still valuable for display purposes.

The primary failure mode of these older tube types is a loss of electron emission from the filament or cathode. With the wide inter electrode spacing used in these tubes, a short is very rare except in the case of a broken filament wire where the oxide has flaked from the filament or cathode and has touched the grid. The loss of electron emission typically shows up in the tube tester as a weak tube or one which will not raise the meter needle. If a tube tests normal and does not show any erratic indication on the test meter, no attempt should be made to improve it by rejuvenation.

The equipment required for rejuvenation is relatively simple. In addition to a tube tester, a variable filament supply is required with a meter of reasonable accuracy for measuring the applied voltage. In place of a separate filament supply, a filament voltmeter may be connected to the tube tester and the filament voltage switch and "line" adjustment used for voltage control. For the thoriated tungsten filaments it is preferable that no grid or plate voltages be applied during rejuvenation. With the oxide emitter tube, voltages should be applied during rejuvenation. The removal of plate and grid voltages can be readily accomplished by the construction of an adapter socket with filament connections only. The voltage applied to the filament during rejuvenation mush be carefully controlled to the values given. The accompanying graph shows the results of various voltages applied to a thoriated tungsten filament during rejuvenation. It shows that a voltage lower than the recommended value will eventually result in a fairly good tube, while too high a voltage will result in a tube which will remain weak.

Emission loss is generally due to contamination (poisoning) of the emitting surface. The vacuum and the original outgassing of the elements in these older tubes was not near the present day standard, therefore, they contain considerable residual gases. The poor emission usually is the result of either the emitting surface being poor in storage, or, immediately upon being heated the filament/cathode was poisoned by the residual gases which had condensed on the emitting surface. The function of rejuvenation is to drive off these condensed gasses and to replenish the electron emitting layer on the surface of the filament/cathode.

Vacuum tubes have essentially three basic types of emitters. These are: pure tungsten, thoriated tungsten, or a directly or indirectly heated oxide. The type of emitter in a given tube can be determined by its operating color at rated filament voltage. The pure tungsten filament operated bright white, the thorated tungsten filament runs orange to yellow, while the oxide emitter operates in the dull red region.

The pure tungsten filament needs little rejuvenation as its operating temperature makes it self-cleaning. Operation at 110% of rated filament voltage for up to 30 minutes should clean them up. This type of filament was used in such tubes as the UV200, UV201, and in many types of transmitting tubes.

The thorated tungsten filament is probably the major one to be dealt with by the collector. This filament is a composition of tungsten and thorium with the tungsten acting as the heat source while the thorium is the emitting source. This filament was used in tubes such as the UX200A, UX201A, UV99, UX99, UX120, UX210, and in many of the later (and present day) transmitting tubes. Two methods are used for rejuvenation of these filaments. If a tube is only weak or gives erratic readings, the first procedure should be tried. If a tube is completely dead (but the filament lights up) then the second procedure should be used. 1) operate the filament at 135% of the rated voltage for 30 minutes. Test the tube, and if the tube has improved but is still not to rating, continue for another hour. If at the end of this time the tube is still not up to specification, use the following procedure. 2) In this procedure the filament is run white hot to strip the emitting surface completely clean, then the surface is restored using the above procedure. Operate the filament for 15 to 20 seconds at 350% of rated voltage with no other voltages applied. Then, operate the tube under the conditions given in the first procedure. Test the tube every 30 minutes, and if the tube is not up to rating after two hours, it has reached the end of its useful life. Note: Do not attempt to test the tubes at the end of the first step, as there will be no emission.

Typically the oxide emitter consists of a layer of strontium and/or barium oxide deposited on a heated surface. In the directly heated type, this layer is placed directly on the surface of the filament. Typical of this type are Western Electric tubes such as the VT-1 and VT-2 and the WD11, UX226, and UX280. The indirectly heated cathode is the more modern type of emitter consisting of a metal sleeve with the oxide layer on the exterior and the filament mounted in the interior. The indirectly heated cathodes include the ac heater types such as the 24, 27, and the Kellog tubes. These tube types should initially be operated at the rated filament voltage for at least one hour and then checked for quality and stability. If they still are not satisfactory, then the following procedure should be used. With the tube in the tube tester, increase the filament voltage to 120% of rating while carefully watching the plate current or tube tester meter reading. The meter reading will slowly increase, hit a peak, then start to decrease. At the point of maximum reading, reduce the filament voltage back to rated value. Continue to operate the tube at rated filament voltage for at least four hours, then test. When two tests spaced one hour apart provide the same reading, the tube is rejuvenated as much as possible.

The rejuvenation of the old tubes can be very rewarding especially considering that some of the would otherwise be in the junk box. It does take some time for this work as there are no short cuts, but it is something that can be done without constant attendance. While not all the tubes will come up to 100% or rating, at least many tubes can be brought up to the point of being usable. As these old tubes become more scarce this may be the only way we will have of getting the old sets operating.

Copyright 1978 California Historical Radio Society, all rights reserved.
No part of this publication may be reproduced in any form, or by any means, without prior written permission from CHRS, except that you may make "fair use" of quotations of text fully attributed by you to the source (CHRS Journal) and author.

CHRS
PO Box 31659
San Francisco, CA 94131
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 28 Mar 2015, 12:19 am
They can work without an adaptor , but it's not the best fit. I ordered some nice porcelain and brass adaptors .
But don't count out the so vane metal base either .
Al
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 9 Jun 2015, 05:41 am
My 1625 amps are cooking in their new caps (Jupiter).  Liking the 101D tubes more than the 275As right now...   
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 28 Aug 2015, 09:15 pm
Has anyone tried a 596 rectifier in the Big 7?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 1 Sep 2015, 10:17 am
Has anyone tried a 596 rectifier in the Big 7?

No. Do you have a link to it?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 1 Sep 2015, 11:21 am
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_596.html (http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_596.html)
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 1 Sep 2015, 09:55 pm
you need a base adapter, but give it a shot and report back. Not sure what the voltage drop is like…that is a big influence ion the sound.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 25 Sep 2015, 06:32 pm
Continuing the tube rolling theme...

I received my Big 7 last week and have been burning it in with the stock Psavne 101D and a Sylvania 5U4G.  It sounded very nice around day 3.

Today I replaced the 101Ds with a pair of NOS National  Union 45s.  Wow.  A completely different sound.  Much deeper bass and much more romantic.  This is a great combination which I will stick with for a while before I try a pair of KR Audio 300Bs.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Gopher on 25 Sep 2015, 06:58 pm
Awesome to hear, David.

Shawn was goodly enough to let me listen to his Western Electric 275As in my home and they were really spectacular, vascilating between my present number 1 and 2 spot for favorite.  They did intimacy, holography and emotion really well--amazing presence. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 25 Sep 2015, 07:06 pm
I have a pair of KR 300Bs, not the PX4s.  I assume that's what you are referring to.

BTW, am I next on the Shawn WE 275a trial list?  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: guf on 25 Sep 2015, 07:27 pm
Continuing the tube rolling theme...

I received my Big 7 last week and have been burning it in with the stock Psavne 101D and a Sylvania 5U4G.  It sounded very nice around day 3.

Today I replaced the 101Ds with a pair of NOS National  Union 45s.  Wow.  A completely different sound.  Much deeper bass and much more romantic.  This is a great combination which I will stick with for a while before I try a pair of KR Audio 300Bs.

I only have National Union 45's and the Emmision labs that my Big 7 came with. I primarily use the NU but every once in a while I try the EMLs hoping they are going to be better. I'm not drawn to the music nearly as much.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 26 Sep 2015, 10:06 pm
Continuing the tube rolling theme...

I received my Big 7 last week and have been burning it in with the stock Psavne 101D and a Sylvania 5U4G.  It sounded very nice around day 3.

Today I replaced the 101Ds with a pair of NOS National  Union 45s.  Wow.  A completely different sound.  Much deeper bass and much more romantic.  This is a great combination which I will stick with for a while before I try a pair of KR Audio 300Bs.

LoL

I just swapped some of those and some 6a3 with a pal who had the metal base Psvane 101ds he did not like in his system. I had 2 sets of the 45s and 6a3s, so was interested in trading, plus I knew he would LOVE the NUs.

I think it was Luang who turned me onto the NUs.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Gopher on 27 Sep 2015, 04:39 pm
Another strong recommendation I'll make is for the KR Px4 tubes.   These are the other tube fluctuating in and out of my first and second place.   They offer most of the presence and holography of the 275as but add scale and dynamics to the mix.  They aren't quite as magical with small scale intimate vocals and stuff (but very close) however they are more versatile overall and the stage and imaging is really great.  I hear sounds coming at me almost from my rear with these.

Check em out!

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 27 Sep 2015, 05:02 pm
All tubes are tradeoffs.  Even my WE 300Bs have some weaknesses.  I find I like the 275As more on many tracks and even favor them overall to my 300Bs in my system.  I know that sounds nuts seeing as 275As are 1/2 the price or less than the 300Bs, but I am not one to wax poetic over prices...   I may track some KRs down.  In other news, my uTracer is up and running.  Let the DHT tube matching begin! 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 27 Sep 2015, 06:08 pm
Decided to try my 596 rectifier today.  This is one tall tube.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=128686)
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 27 Sep 2015, 06:13 pm
That is one of two rectifiers that I have not tried extensively that I would try.  That said, I am not willing to pay the price of the 596/adapter... 

Shawn
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 27 Sep 2015, 06:18 pm
The tube can be purchased for less than $200.  The adapter is about $40.  Find a tube and I'll lend you an adapter.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 27 Sep 2015, 07:35 pm
David, how does it sound compared to other well known rectis? What output tubes have you tried with them? What is the voltage drop on this tube?

Also, I think I got these adaptors on Ebay for like $15...
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 27 Sep 2015, 08:34 pm
Right now I am using the NU 45s.  The KR 300Bs will be next.

Why does voltage drop matter and if it does why don't people just use a good old GZ34?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 28 Sep 2015, 08:05 am

Why does voltage drop matter and if it does why don't people just use a good old GZ34?

http://www.tubemaze.info/sound-of-rectifier/

The type matters too, ie Directly heated vs IH.

Indeed, one of my fav rectis is the Phillips metal base GZ34.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 1 Oct 2015, 09:37 pm
Whoa

I hate to post impressions of tubes after 20 minutes but I am really liking these Sylvania 6A3s.  Compared to the National Union 45s the music feels much  more alive.  Maybe the 45s are too romantic for me which is unusual  since I like  romantic.  The music seems much more three dimensional  with the 6A3s but it not harsh in any way.

Very interesting.

BTW, my  play list for  auditioning is:

Garcia Grisman - Friend of the  Devil
Patricia Barber - Bye Bye Blackbird
PB - If I Were Blue
Oscar Peterson - People
OP - The Days of Wine and Roses
Lee Morgan - Search for the New Land
Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing
Dire Straits - In the Gallery
Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby
Dexter Gordon - Love For Sale
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 1 Oct 2015, 09:44 pm
The bass is definitely lighter on the 6A3s than the 45s.  I will need to see if a different rectifier can rectify that.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 2 Oct 2015, 11:07 am
The bass is definitely lighter on the 6A3s than the 45s.  I will need to see if a different rectifier can rectify that.

What settings are the 6A3 playing on? 2a3/300b or  45/101d?

Also, many people in earlier threads loved the 6a3 and considered it the best value for money tube.

Some nice inexpensive rectis here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brimar-5Z4G-Rectifier-Tube-Tested-/252103756463?hash=item3ab28e0aaf
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-SUPERB-RARE-5R4GY-CV684-BRIMAR-BVA-BRITISH-made-BLACK-carbonized-plate-274B-/271996764137?hash=item3f54453fe9

and http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-GZ34-5AR4-RECTIFIER-TUBE-D7-/281810117239?hash=item419d312277
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 2 Oct 2015, 11:40 am
What settings are the 6A3 playing on? 2a3/300b or  45/101d?


2A3, for now.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 2 Oct 2015, 11:43 am
2A3, for now.
That is the official setting, but most seemed to prefer it on the 45/101d setting, even if a bit underheated. If you go back into some old threads here, you will see the discussions.

Try and see what you think...
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 2 Oct 2015, 12:30 pm
I must preface this with the statement that I have no actual knowledge of the circuit.  However, from the tubes, the switch between 45/101D and 2A3/300b isn't a voltage switch.  I imagine it isn't a heater switch at all.  It may have a current limiting function or a resistance function for the anode voltage or the grid bias, but the 45 and 2A3 both have 2.5 volt heaters (amperage is different) and the 300B and 101D have heaters over 4 volts.  I imagine the heater voltage winding on the Lampi is 2.5 or 3 volts (I suppose it could be a constant current transformer with variable voltage, but that seems unlikely). That is why the filaments on the 6A3 and higher voltage tubes barely light up.  How he gets enough electrons off the directly heated cathodes in this instance is a good question in my eyes.  Frankly, I would love to understand the circuit more. 

And I also should say that I have run plenty of tubes slightly out of spec on the heaters (7dj8s instead of 6dj8s, 8bq5 and 10bq5 instead 6bq5, and 12sn7 instead of 6sn7).  All work.  Some better than others and it is highly circuit dependent.  My 6bq5 amp sounds awesome no matter what is used.  However, I could not use a 25SN7 in place of a 12sn7.  The cathode was too starved to function.  This raises more questions than answers about operating points, indirect vs direct heat, triodes vs pentodes, etc. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 2 Oct 2015, 12:41 pm
So for Norman's rectifier spots, the first Brimar is a Russian made Brimar.  LANGREX is a good seller and it is likely a fine tube.  The 5AR4 is a good old Mullard (if it tests well).  $59 is a bargain for it if it is still good.  Note that the F32 is the tube type, not the date code.  F32=5AR4, F31=5R4, etc.  The other Brimar is a tube I don't recognize completely.  I need to study it more.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 2 Oct 2015, 02:01 pm
So for Norman's rectifier spots, the first Brimar is a Russian made Brimar.  LANGREX is a good seller and it is likely a fine tube.  The 5AR4 is a good old Mullard (if it tests well).  $59 is a bargain for it if it is still good.  Note that the F32 is the tube type, not the date code.  F32=5AR4, F31=5R4, etc.  The other Brimar is a tube I don't recognize completely.  I need to study it more.

Thanks Shawn, it's good to have a tube afficionado like you to steer us right.....You certainly know the good stuff from the fakes.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 2 Oct 2015, 02:09 pm
I must preface this with the statement that I have no actual knowledge of the circuit.  However, from the tubes, the switch between 45/101D and 2A3/300b isn't a voltage switch.  I imagine it isn't a heater switch at all.  It may have a current limiting function or a resistance function for the anode voltage or the grid bias, but the 45 and 2A3 both have 2.5 volt heaters (amperage is different) and the 300B and 101D have heaters over 4 volts.  I imagine the heater voltage winding on the Lampi is 2.5 or 3 volts (I suppose it could be a constant current transformer with variable voltage, but that seems unlikely). That is why the filaments on the 6A3 and higher voltage tubes barely light up.  How he gets enough electrons off the directly heated cathodes in this instance is a good question in my eyes.  Frankly, I would love to understand the circuit more. 

And I also should say that I have run plenty of tubes slightly out of spec on the heaters (7dj8s instead of 6dj8s, 8bq5 and 10bq5 instead 6bq5, and 12sn7 instead of 6sn7).  All work.  Some better than others and it is highly circuit dependent.  My 6bq5 amp sounds awesome no matter what is used.  However, I could not use a 25SN7 in place of a 12sn7.  The cathode was too starved to function.  This raises more questions than answers about operating points, indirect vs direct heat, triodes vs pentodes, etc.

I cant recall but I made a post here months ago, based on what I was told by Lukasz. The circuits is based on watts, not voltage and the 6a3 is underheated in the 101d setting, but most here prefer the sound. When I tried, both settings sounded the same to me. I also think, but am not sure, that recent builds of B7 and GG changed/optimized the operating point of the 2a3 setting to favour more the 300b specs. This could explain why you Shawn and others prefer other tubes in the GG compared to what was your favourite when you used the B7. Andy, who does not post here, has a Gg and a B7 and says that the Sophia CP 2.5v is great in his B7, but not so great in the GG, where the Elrogs and Anniversary 45 are kings. I need to ask him if he tried any primo 300Bs like the Psvane WE replica, Takatsuki, Kron or vintage WE.

Here is what Lukasz said:
The 2A3/300b setting can work up to 6.5watts, while the 45 setting is up to 4.5watts. This is voltage times amps.

As the 6A3 is 6.3v x 1amp, its should correctly be in the 2a3 setting, however, many/most report that it sounds better in the 101d setting, which means it only gets about 4.5w when it's specs demand 6.3w. This means its underheated and when I googled that,, it says underheating can shorten tube life. however, that comment was in context of its use iun POWER amps and here they are used as preamps with maybe 5% of its rated capacity, so very little stress. In addition, its one of the more economical tubes out there with price per pair varying from $80 to $150...so people are not scared to use it as they see fit.

Finally 6a3 in any setting will run cool in the Lampi as the voltage drop from the power supply is just 0.5v times the moderate amperage of 1.0 means the heat needed to be dissipate is just half a watt per tube!
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 2 Oct 2015, 06:20 pm
Actually, the Brimar isn't a fake.  Just a tube that they sold that wasn't made in the UK.  I have some earlier Brimar foreign tubes that are awesome. 

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 3 Oct 2015, 02:38 am
I started tonight listening to the Sylvania 6A3 on the 45/101D setting.  I didn't think it sounded very different than on the 300B/2A3 setting and it certainly didn't sound better.  If I had to choose a setting it would be on the 2A3.

Next, I rolled in a pair of KR Audio 300B balloons.  As of now these are my favorite Big 7 DHTs.  They have a similiar 3D sound as the 6A3s but a much fuller and enjoyable bottom end.

Tomorrow I will roll a couple rectifiers including a metal base GZ34.  By the weekend I hope to be done with tube rolling for a while and just enjoy the music.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 3 Oct 2015, 11:03 am
So for Norman's rectifier spots, the first Brimar is a Russian made Brimar.  LANGREX is a good seller and it is likely a fine tube.  The 5AR4 is a good old Mullard (if it tests well).  $59 is a bargain for it if it is still good.  Note that the F32 is the tube type, not the date code.  F32=5AR4, F31=5R4, etc.  The other Brimar is a tube I don't recognize completely.  I need to study it more.

The seller for the Foreign Brimar is none other than:

Dave
Arizona Tube Supply
http://www.arizonatubesupply.com/
(602) 803-6290

He also has more 1944 JAN RCA 5r4gy for $88 a piece. This is the double angled getter WW2 fabled recti, that many claim threatens the WE 274b.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 3 Oct 2015, 11:05 am
I started tonight listening to the Sylvania 6A3 on the 45/101D setting.  I didn't think it sounded very different than on the 300B/2A3 setting and it certainly didn't sound better.  If I had to choose a setting it would be on the 2A3.

Next, I rolled in a pair of KR Audio 300B balloons.  As of now these are my favorite Big 7 DHTs.  They have a similiar 3D sound as the 6A3s but a much fuller and enjoyable bottom end.

Tomorrow I will roll a couple rectifiers including a metal base GZ34.  By the weekend I hope to be done with tube rolling for a while and just enjoy the music.

Interesting…it could be as Shawn speculated that the more recent B7/GG have a changed anode supply? People who saw a preference had older units.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 3 Oct 2015, 04:59 pm
The metal base GZ34 is a great compliment to the KR Audio 300Bs.  Bass is fuller than with the 596 and there is more clarity and air in the mids.  I am enjoying evolution of the sound with the Big 7 as I find a nice tube combination.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 3 Oct 2015, 05:06 pm
If the PO ever pays my claim for my metal GZ34/101D, I will buy another...
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 3 Oct 2015, 05:09 pm
Is the GZ34 direct headed?  Which fall into the other category?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 3 Oct 2015, 05:44 pm
GZ34 should be indirectly (so is the 5V4G and the 422A).  5U4G, 5R4 and 274b are directly heated.  For all intents and purposes, this should be a meaningless difference in the DAC (assuming the filter caps are good).  Cheap equipment is a different story...  Anyway, directly heated will have the electrons start moving fast (so really that means that the B+ voltage will come up and hit the plate, etc. before the filaments in the power tubes have heated up if the power tubes were not directly heated as well).  In my experience, it is under 5 seconds. The indirectly heated tubes will slowly bring up the B+ as the cathode heats and the electrons start to move.  In my experience, there is about a 5-10 second delay for an indirectly heated rectifier to bring up the B+...  Some varieties of indirect tubes had longer times to come up to operation (often preamp tubes).  So, I hope that helps.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 3 Oct 2015, 05:49 pm
That's all I needed to know!  Thanks Shawn.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 3 Oct 2015, 08:02 pm
http://www.tubemaze.info/sound-of-rectifier/
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 3 Oct 2015, 09:04 pm
Voltage drop importance is a matter of the circuit usage, not just the tube.  There are other factors as well   So it isn't as if a 274b with a big drop is worse than a 5AR4 (smallest drop).
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 3 Oct 2015, 09:28 pm
The article implies that big voltage drops are better in general...
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 3 Oct 2015, 10:10 pm
I was just saying.  Dave was discussing his Gz34/ 5AR4, with the smallest voltage drop.   
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 10 Oct 2015, 05:11 pm
Shawn lent me a pair of Western Electric 275As.  Wow.  The midrange is perfect.  They cleared up some of the congestion I was hearing with the KR Audio 300Bs.  They are slightly less full in the lowest registers but only by a tad.  I would trade that for midrange perfection any day.

This is the best pair of DHTs I have heard in my Big 7.  Now I need to find a pair!
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 10 Oct 2015, 06:41 pm
Have you tried 101d yet - how did you like the replicas compared to KR Audio.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 10 Oct 2015, 07:16 pm
I tried the Psvane 101Ds which came with the Big 7 and I didn't care for them.

I am now listening to a pair of Sylvania 6B4Gs (with adapters).  I like them.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 10 Oct 2015, 07:17 pm
Ok. Is your reference music more vocal based or full symphony orchestra? Thanks
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: dminches on 10 Oct 2015, 07:25 pm
Combination of rock (grateful dead, garcia, dire straits, The who, etc.), jazz (coltrane, miles, gordon, rollins) and female vocals (patricia barber, rickie lee jones).  I don't listen to much classical at all.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 10 Oct 2015, 07:27 pm
Ok, my friends who don't listen to classical don't like the 101d replica. Birth i and the lampi distributor here love it (and now audiophile Bill ) but we primarily use orchestral for reference
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 3 Nov 2015, 02:33 pm
Selling Psvane WE Replica 101d matched pair at $350 plus postage from London. Original Price $550

I have the original ST Shaped match quad which I pulled out of the box and they working fine, I also have KR, Ayon 32bs (300bs on steroids), so selling these.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 3 Nov 2015, 03:45 pm
What do you think of the 32Bs?
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 3 Nov 2015, 03:56 pm
What do you think of the 32Bs?

Must buy
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 3 Nov 2015, 04:36 pm
There had a very rounded, solid controlled, thick for guitar, great dynamics and bass kind of sound. On some music they were downright the best. We had a shootout with KR, JJ, 101D replicas, EML solid plate 45s, and Original WE 101D. Original 101d and Ayon 32b were the best but very different. KR was very good, again different, and will come used, while Ayons will not come used as they usually get sold with Ayon amps, not as separate valves. But you can buy from distributor or so
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 3 Nov 2015, 09:18 pm
Hi can anyone tell me if these specs work?

It has 2A at 515v. Will it run underpowered and is that ok? I don't mind if the tube has shorter life, but I don't want the dac to get damaged.

http://www.ayonaudio.com/ayon/ayon-super-triode-power-tubes/aa-32b-s.html
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 3 Nov 2015, 09:36 pm
Hi I don't think I can yet recommend the Ayon because of the 2a current
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 12 Nov 2015, 02:35 am
I am pretty sure I just had a religious experience listening to David Bowie on my GG.  275As, my new favorite rectifier and some remastered Bowie. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 12 Nov 2015, 02:39 am
The Ayon will be drawing at least 9 watts on the filament.  Norman has stated 6.5 watts is the max.  Normal 300B is 6 watts.  You could seriously damage a power transformer pulling that much current if it isn't rated to that level.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: PhilipAC on 12 Nov 2015, 12:38 pm
Selling Psvane WE Replica 101d matched pair at $350 plus postage from London. Original Price $550

Hi Bonzo

Do you still have them? If so, what sterling price would you accept (I live in Reigate)?

Cheers

Philip
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 12 Nov 2015, 12:43 pm
Hi Bonzo

Do you still have them? If so, what sterling price would you accept (I live in Reigate)?

Cheers

Philip

250.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 12 Nov 2015, 06:05 pm
The Ayon will be drawing at least 9 watts on the filament.  Norman has stated 6.5 watts is the max.  Normal 300B is 6 watts.  You could seriously damage a power transformer pulling that much current if it isn't rated to that level.
Max for the auto blancing circuit. I do think the Trafo will be specced way in excess of that, so the real risjk is early tube death due to under heating. That could mean the 20 year like gets cut in half of more.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 12 Nov 2015, 06:07 pm
I am pretty sure I just had a religious experience listening to David Bowie on my GG.  275As, my new favorite rectifier and some remastered Bowie.

Sounds like the GG/Komputer Bughead demo session I heard in Poland on Monday. Big WOW.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: bonzo75 on 28 Nov 2015, 09:02 pm
Hi I am selling my Emission Labs 5u4g recti at $150, or GBP 100, plus postage from London (roughly $40 for the US). In original box and very few hours.


Also selling WE 422a Date code is "5726" (Year 1957, week 26). Selling at GBP 320 or $500 plus postage from London. Working fine.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: Crashem on 21 Dec 2015, 07:40 am
So I am in process of trying to determine whether to upgrade to B7 or stretch for that GG.  In any case, starting shopping for tubes and came across this listing.  Look at flyer and bought it.  Did I just score a deal?  It looks like it is a metal base Mullard GZ34 and that the seller misinterpreted the date codes.  Am I right that metal bases weren't made into the 60's?  Although it is a F32 series which I usually associate with the black base 60's verion.  Any of you tube experts, your knowledge is needed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/361418290633

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: deuter on 9 Jun 2016, 08:23 pm
Something that I posted on another forum about the KR Audio tube 242.

Usually when I change tubes, rectifier and the DHT's I go back to the old tube and do some critical listening back and forth to understand and solidify what the differences are.

I replaced the Psvane 101d Hifi with the 242, when I first tried them I had just got home and wanted to check if the tubes were working, etc
No plans to listen to music or expect anything as I was tired.
You know what as soon as I played music I knew straight away these were special and I just packed away the 101d's didnt even think about swapping around to know what the differences were. They were that obvious.

To all that say buy the top model you can and don't worry about upgrading your tubes, you are so very wrong.
I believe the performance of my DAC has improved atleast 30% and I'am being very conservative.
I could easily say its huge.
I'am very thankful to Eunice Kron to assist me in getting these tubes so quickly and at a very fine price.
And lastly for building such beautiful tubes. Its mind blowing how they build such gems.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 9 Jun 2016, 08:41 pm
I would rather shoot those 101D tubes with a gun than listen to them...  I have hated them since day 1.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: genjamon on 9 Jun 2016, 09:06 pm
I recently moved to a new house.  The new listening room is a combination living/dining room - 20ft x 25ft with sloped ceiling front to back going from 8.5ft to around 10.5ft.  Lots of thick carpet.  The old house audio room was 11ft x 20ft x 7-8ft, with hard laminate floor, and a big wall of picture windows.  So, the new room has a LOT less room reflections to deal with and is much more heavily damped.  Needless to say, the system synergy was all wrong for the new house when I set things up.

I've been playing with a lot of system tweaks to try and get things right.  But tube swapping on the Big7 was not high on my list - though it absolutely should have been.  I had originally leaned quite quickly to 300B tubes in the B7.  I hated the stock Psvane 101D from the moment I heard them.  Almost sent the Big7 back under the 1 week trial period - but then a buddy brought over some cheap 2A3 and 300B tubes he had as spares on the last day.  The 300B's were just right.  But what I should have remembered when moving to the new house was how DIFFERENT each of the tubes sounded.  Changing tubes on the B7 doesn't just lead to small changes - the sound signature can change quite dramatically.

But, since I'd invested somewhat heavily in some used Takatsuki 300B's, which are known as probably the best new production 300B's out there, and maybe in the same league as the best of all time, I thought anything I would put into the Big7 in the new house would be markedly inferior.  WRONG...

Last weekend I swapped in some vintage Sovtek 2A3's and RCA Cunningham 45's, as well as giving those stock Psvane 101D's another listen. 

With the Tak's, I had been battling a sound that was just too thick in the midrange, a bit bloated in the bass, and didn't have the attack/transients, or high frequency extension to really open up the sound and engage the listener.  It had really excellent soundstage depth, but the thickness and bloatedness, and lack of attack just made everything sound like the music was not as immediately there - like you were sitting way in back of the hall.

The 2A3's brought some better balance to the sound, more control in the bass, a bit more attack, and a slight bit more high frequency extension.  A bit more "there".  You could hear it wasn't as good of a tube as the Tak's, a certain kind of refined detail was missing, and a touch of a kind of harshness that you know a higher quality tube would do away with.  But the overall sonic signature was a better fit with the room.

The 45's brought even more balance, with more control in the bass, even more attack, good high frequency extension, and awesome soundstage depth to boot.  And a bit higher quality tube than the Sovteks.

The stock Psvane 101D's, really lit things up in terms of upper midrange attack and high frequency extension.  At the expense of some of the balance, and with a very forward dynamic sound that removed that soundstage depth from the 45's.  But a bit of a brittle sound, and strident enough to be fatiguing. 

So, the 45's were the best fit of all these sonic signatures.  I'm really curious what a higher quality 101D would do in my system, knowing that the stock Psvane's are not at all the the same league.  Maybe a Psvane Replica 101D would do it for me.  But those KR 242's or PX4's do sound really interesting to try.  But then again, going with some new production 45's might be interesting as well - I've read a little bit saying the EML 45's are as good or better than any vintage 45's. 

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on the options given what I've said about my impressions above?  I don't think I'm going to be able to afford more than one of these sets of tubes in the near future.

***P.S. I don't want any of the above to be interpreted that I think the Takatsuki 300B is not as good as these cheaper tubes.  Completely on the contrary.  In my other room, I listened to all these same tubes.  And also several other pairs of 300B's, including some NOS AVVT's and Genalex.  The Tak's were heads above the other 300B's in refinement, and also quite a bit higher quality and more refined than the 45's, 2A3's, and 6A3's I tried.  It's just that the 300B sound in the new room is much better damped and also has some bass modes that still need to be tamed.  The 300B sound turns to thick with not enough higher frequency energy to energize the room.  In the old room, I needed a bit of that bass roundness and midrange richness to counteract an otherwise bright room.  Very different situation here - the exact opposite in fact.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 9 Jun 2016, 09:36 pm
PX4s sound right for you.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: deuter on 10 Jun 2016, 07:13 am
I would rather shoot those 101D tubes with a gun than listen to them...  I have hated them since day 1.

That's funny, just sell them if they are that hated by you.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: deuter on 10 Jun 2016, 07:25 am
I recently moved to a new house.  The new listening room is a combination living/dining room - 20ft x 25ft with sloped ceiling front to back going from 8.5ft to around 10.5ft.  Lots of thick carpet.  The old house audio room was 11ft x 20ft x 7-8ft, with hard laminate floor, and a big wall of picture windows.  So, the new room has a LOT less room reflections to deal with and is much more heavily damped.  Needless to say, the system synergy was all wrong for the new house when I set things up.

I've been playing with a lot of system tweaks to try and get things right.  But tube swapping on the Big7 was not high on my list - though it absolutely should have been.  I had originally leaned quite quickly to 300B tubes in the B7.  I hated the stock Psvane 101D from the moment I heard them.  Almost sent the Big7 back under the 1 week trial period - but then a buddy brought over some cheap 2A3 and 300B tubes he had as spares on the last day.  The 300B's were just right.  But what I should have remembered when moving to the new house was how DIFFERENT each of the tubes sounded.  Changing tubes on the B7 doesn't just lead to small changes - the sound signature can change quite dramatically.

But, since I'd invested somewhat heavily in some used Takatsuki 300B's, which are known as probably the best new production 300B's out there, and maybe in the same league as the best of all time, I thought anything I would put into the Big7 in the new house would be markedly inferior.  WRONG...

Last weekend I swapped in some vintage Sovtek 2A3's and RCA Cunningham 45's, as well as giving those stock Psvane 101D's another listen. 

With the Tak's, I had been battling a sound that was just too thick in the midrange, a bit bloated in the bass, and didn't have the attack/transients, or high frequency extension to really open up the sound and engage the listener.  It had really excellent soundstage depth, but the thickness and bloatedness, and lack of attack just made everything sound like the music was not as immediately there - like you were sitting way in back of the hall.

The 2A3's brought some better balance to the sound, more control in the bass, a bit more attack, and a slight bit more high frequency extension.  A bit more "there".  You could hear it wasn't as good of a tube as the Tak's, a certain kind of refined detail was missing, and a touch of a kind of harshness that you know a higher quality tube would do away with.  But the overall sonic signature was a better fit with the room.

The 45's brought even more balance, with more control in the bass, even more attack, good high frequency extension, and awesome soundstage depth to boot.  And a bit higher quality tube than the Sovteks.

The stock Psvane 101D's, really lit things up in terms of upper midrange attack and high frequency extension.  At the expense of some of the balance, and with a very forward dynamic sound that removed that soundstage depth from the 45's.  But a bit of a brittle sound, and strident enough to be fatiguing. 

So, the 45's were the best fit of all these sonic signatures.  I'm really curious what a higher quality 101D would do in my system, knowing that the stock Psvane's are not at all the the same league.  Maybe a Psvane Replica 101D would do it for me.  But those KR 242's or PX4's do sound really interesting to try.  But then again, going with some new production 45's might be interesting as well - I've read a little bit saying the EML 45's are as good or better than any vintage 45's. 

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on the options given what I've said about my impressions above?  I don't think I'm going to be able to afford more than one of these sets of tubes in the near future.

***P.S. I don't want any of the above to be interpreted that I think the Takatsuki 300B is not as good as these cheaper tubes.  Completely on the contrary.  In my other room, I listened to all these same tubes.  And also several other pairs of 300B's, including some NOS AVVT's and Genalex.  The Tak's were heads above the other 300B's in refinement, and also quite a bit higher quality and more refined than the 45's, 2A3's, and 6A3's I tried.  It's just that the 300B sound in the new room is much better damped and also has some bass modes that still need to be tamed.  The 300B sound turns to thick with not enough higher frequency energy to energize the room.  In the old room, I needed a bit of that bass roundness and midrange richness to counteract an otherwise bright room.  Very different situation here - the exact opposite in fact.

Why not ask Lukasz as he would know best given he built the DAC.
Everyone will state preference but given you want to buy one set I would not like to provide any biased opinion.
I will say there are good things said about the PX4 and there is next to none information about the 242.
Lukasz knows the tubes well and should be able to provide you some sound recommendation.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 14 Jun 2016, 01:43 pm
That's funny, just sell them if they are that hated by you.

Oh I got rid of them in time.  I have a tube hoarding problem.  I find it hard to send tubes away...  I often find a use for the few ones I have sold... 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 24 Jul 2016, 11:34 am
Good morning all. 
I just got my B7 DAC back. 
It has the following features.
Mundorf copper silver 2.2 cap s
R2r PCM/dsd non switching
SE output two tubes
As it is still running in I would some tube feed back it arrived with the Kron 5u4g , Kron px25
Also does anyone have the psvane we275b recti in the lampi.  Going throw my tubes I found them. 
Also eml mesh 275b if anyone has these tubes or A DAC setup simaler to mine I would appreciate feed back.
So far I hAve two comments the PCM is very nice it is now close to dsd meaning little to no edge anymore. Now I am not sure if it's the combo of it all or not.  But I have rolled many tubes and feel it's the r2r not tubes or even caps .
The next is the background with the stock set is extremly detailed and plays from bal k back ground now better than my msb stack does.
The px25 is a 300b class tube and it took a while of burn in to hear this. It seems the setup,is so detailed it fooled me as to the class of tubes it was.  It seems to hVe the weight of a 300b but still,has the clarity of a 45
So far the stock combo is very nice and I am searching to find others who can weigh in .
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shadowlight on 13 Feb 2017, 10:17 pm
Raising the thread from the dead. 
I am a proud owner of B7 with R2R upgrade in place, with superclock and DSD 512 upgrade planned for future.  I recently picked up matched pair of JAN CRC 1945 WWII 5R4GY and looking for output tube recommendations (would like to keep the cost under 250 for the pair if possible).  I have a pair of ElectroHarmonix 300B Gold tubes that I am going to roll into the DAC with the JAN rectifier instead of the existing PSvane 101d and Shugang 274b.

I have gone through this thread, the one on Whatsbestforum and Audioshark about tube rolling in B7.  What I am finding is that the px4, px25, kr242, tak 300b, elrog 300b, Lampi eml 45 are the top output tubes with Tak 274b and WE 274b as the rectifier of choice.  The prices on those tubes are out of question so what is the next tier down.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 13 Feb 2017, 11:21 pm
Before I through my hat in the ring I have one reccomendation
Buy a solid state recti from any where just to have
You will be surprised how it sounds. Also 300 B tubes can be a bit bloated on the bottom end
The solid state recti fix 'tis and adds some shimmer and overall clarity

Now it's your turn
What speakers do you have
What source do you use
And lastly please describe how it sounds now and what you would like as a change
The recti is about 20 $ try one
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shadowlight on 13 Feb 2017, 11:51 pm
Before I through my hat in the ring I have one reccomendation
Buy a solid state recti from any where just to have
You will be surprised how it sounds. Also 300 B tubes can be a bit bloated on the bottom end
The solid state recti fix 'tis and adds some shimmer and overall clarity

Now it's your turn
What speakers do you have
What source do you use
And lastly please describe how it sounds now and what you would like as a change
The recti is about 20 $ try one

Sorry, should have mentioned that in my original post.

Speaker: Zu Audio Druid V
Preamp: DIY transformer coupled 4P1L
Source: NAA with HQPlayer
Amp: Triode Lab 2a3 / Response Audio 3205 Extereme (Modified Jolida 302/502) using KT77 as power tubes.


With the 101d I am finding the sound to bit harsh when up converting everything to DSD256.

Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 14 Feb 2017, 01:13 am
Upsample all ? Even dsd or just pcm ?
Sweet spot for pcm upsample is dsd 512 but 256 is still better.
The 101d is a very analytical tube it needs great stuff to sound good
Not a rock tube but good for classical or small jazz
Also a bit thin in notes thickness. A 45 is mid and better
Your recti are ok but an eml 274b mesh would be better there 45 meal bottle necks are nice
Try eBay for abused pair of eml output tubes used is fine Ina lampi but not for recti unless it's used lightly
A used pair of px242 or 4 is also nice middle ground again used outputs are fine and saves bucks
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shadowlight on 14 Feb 2017, 01:24 am
Everything up sampled to dsd 256.  Any particular 45 tube to look for?  Will search ebay on your recommendation.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 14 Feb 2017, 02:53 am
Two
Eml mesh 45 bottle head
Also a 242 by Kron it's rally nice tube relaxed sound a bit heavier is the px4
But please try a solid state as well
It may help a bit with the 101d the
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: silverlight on 14 Feb 2017, 03:15 am

But please try a solid state as well


Is this safe for the Big7 (and it's tubes)?  I know the output tubes are not running a high voltage, but it's a fast onrush versus a tube rectifier
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: wisnon on 14 Feb 2017, 11:49 am
No problem when I tried in the Atlantic.

For Recti, try the double mica (ceramic spacer) 5r4gy. Brands are Halton/Zaerix/CIE/Fivre/Brimar etc. EBay and should be less that $50.
Those 1945 JAN RCAs are also well appreciated. New production, try the Kron 5u4g with their very high vaccuum seal.

For output tubes try the vintage RCA 45 tubes from the 1950s (ST shape). National Union is a VERY good brand and they could be even $100 a pair! 6A3 is another inexpensive output tube to try at circa $150 a pair.

The PSVANE metal base 101ds for for $600 a pair. If interested, PM me for a nearly unused pair for a very attractive price.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: shadowlight on 14 Feb 2017, 08:12 pm
Thx guys, will be on the look out for some of the tubes recommended.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 14 Feb 2017, 11:04 pm
Solid state recti are fine for lampi dacs also many Amps as well
But with non lampi stuff always ask the maker
Google solid state recti for lampi I did some posts on them some
Love them but either way of playing back ground music or burning in new tubes or burning in your new dac with crazy tubes it's still very good to have
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 14 Feb 2017, 11:44 pm
I think the worry is that the B+ will hit the plates before the tube is fully warm and you could get cathode stripping.  Not a huge concern, but because the filaments are constant current, there is a greater risk.  I always worry more about sleeping sickness because the filaments are left on with no B+ In some LampizatOrs.  The cathode is heated and constantly releases electrons. Without a positive plate voltage/current, they build up around the cathode and (unscientificly) reverse the cathode's charge by creating a form of capacitive effect.  It is not going to happen overnight, but the length of time that some people leave heaters on without B+ scares me.  Read more by googling cathode interference resistance.
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 15 Feb 2017, 12:15 am
I have both of my lampi dacs shut down the heaters from the button in the front
Like has them on all the time something about loosing an Atom  or something each time we turn them on. For me I will nkt leave any tubes on when nkt home or using it and no Amps either a fail can be destruction of your speakers and some
I do let them all warm up for 30 mins or so from critical playing
What I do know is the b plus is a bit higher ona solid state recti over s tubetubes are half wave I think and recti are four diods so full wave a little more voltage
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: sfox7076 on 15 Feb 2017, 07:00 am
Well, I imagine it is more the voltage drop over the silicon is less than a tube.  Not sure how one would use a bridge instead of half wave by just a drop in. 
Title: Re: Big7 tube shootout!
Post by: ALRAINBOW on 22 Feb 2017, 07:48 pm
Sorry I was retarded at at post hahaha. Good trick if one could
Thanks