[neobop]

Please post link if there some established method to add rim drive to the Sota TT.  That sounds like a fantastic idea.  The plinth, platter, and cabinet are fantastic starting points.   

On older Sota TTs the wow and flutter is quite audible, and bothersome.  I suspect the current models are much improved in that area, but have not heard them.

I have concrete floor, which minimizes or eliminates floor bounce.  I know of persons who owned older VPI HW-19 TTs (suspended and in other ways similar to Sota) and strongly felt replacing the springs with visco-elastic (AKA rubber) grommets vastly improved performance.  Sota now makes and sells the Jewel, same as the Saphire w/grommets replacing the springs.  The Jewel is my favorite current Sota.  If I bought an older Sota, I'd purchase the Saphire and convert it to a Jewel.

It may not look great, but the $6500 Merrill TT may be the world's best high end TT value.     

There is no established method for converting a Sapphire.  I already defeated the suspension and was about to make a new chassis as the old one was warped.  This project dates back a couple of years and it seems like I took too long.  Teres is out of business.  Used Teres Verus motors are few and far between.  The only viable rim drive motor I know of is Trans Fi and I don't know if they sell motors/controllers separately.  I don't think a VPI rim drive will fit and I suspect they're overpriced with a controller.  Plus, I'm not convinced of the quality with an AC motor.   Here's what the insides of an old ceramic platter Sapphire look like:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119851.0

As you get into the thread you'll see what a poor design it is.  The plinth is 1/2" MDF and holds the entire weigh of the table.  It flexes with the weight on the suspension.  My mod took virtually all the weight off the suspension and put it on the subchassis - 4 spikes.  Now all I need is a motor, but I'm not partial to belt drive so it sits unfinished.  The only really nice thing about a Sota is the cabinet, dust cover, and platter /bearing is excellent, but the drive system is crap.  Current models have better motors but are little improved.  The thin little belt is too flexible and wow and flutter is still bothersome. 
Any time you have a suspension with a fixed motor, you have a problem.  If the suspension is excited the belt will stretch and contract with the movement.
neo

[orientalexpress]

speaking of Sota sapphire turntable,i just pick one up without power supply but it come with sme 309 and goldmund matt and clamp.just wondering if it worth it to keep as it is ?or upgrade it with something else from the factory?Thanks

lapsan

[neobop]

Hi Lapsan,

I think you should get it functional and decide if it's worthy.  The real old ones have a 24V DC supply, but Sota changed this on various vintages.  If you call them or email their service department with your serial number, they'll tell you what it is.  If you need a 24V supply to get it going, you can borrow mine which is rebuilt.   

It's unusual to see them with a Goldmund mat/clamp.  Sota sold a Supermat and a big reflex clamp which is more usual on these.  The Supermat is similar to the Goldmund methacrylate mat.  The Goldmund clamp is a screw-on with their name on top.  The big Sota clamp has a lever on top to tighten.

Let us know how you make out.
neo

[James Romeyn]

There is no established method for converting a Sapphire.  I already defeated the suspension and was about to make a new chassis as the old one was warped.  This project dates back a couple of years and it seems like I took too long.  Teres is out of business.  Used Teres Verus motors are few and far between.  The only viable rim drive motor I know of is Trans Fi and I don't know if they sell motors/controllers separately.  I don't think a VPI rim drive will fit and I suspect they're overpriced with a controller.  Plus, I'm not convinced of the quality with an AC motor.   Here's what the insides of an old ceramic platter Sapphire look like:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119851.0

As you get into the thread you'll see what a poor design it is.  The plinth is 1/2" MDF and holds the entire weigh of the table.  It flexes with the weight on the suspension.  My mod took virtually all the weight off the suspension and put it on the subchassis - 4 spikes.  Now all I need is a motor, but I'm not partial to belt drive so it sits unfinished.  The only really nice thing about a Sota is the cabinet, dust cover, and platter /bearing is excellent, but the drive system is crap.  Current models have better motors but are little improved.  The thin little belt is too flexible and wow and flutter is still bothersome. 
Any time you have a suspension with a fixed motor, you have a problem.  If the suspension is excited the belt will stretch and contract with the movement.
neo

Wow, that really takes the air out of my Sota balloon.  I'm glad I know now, though.  The cabinets sure look great.  Have no idea why I thought the plinth was aluminum.

A Linn LP-12 replaced and outperformed my Sota Sapphire.  Ditto Sony's marvelous PSX-8 outperformed the LP-12 by even bigger margin.  Do you like the custom rim-drive TT made in GB?

In the late 80s/early 90s at CES, Fanfare Magazine's then-audiophile reviewer Niel Levinson visited our room and mentioned how terrible is the Sota's wow and flutter, and how much better is the Linn's.  It's funny I never noticed it till he mentioned that, then afterwards that's all I heard every record I played.  All the press and awards the Sota won and it took an almost unknown author to point out the obvious. 

The Sota certainly sounded "big," and was impervious to acoustic breakthrough of any kind, not the case with the LP-12 if set up incorrectly, which was easy to do compared to the Sota.           

[neobop]

Wow, that really takes the air out of my Sota balloon.  I'm glad I know now, though.  The cabinets sure look great.  Have no idea why I thought the plinth was aluminum.

A Linn LP-12 replaced and outperformed my Sota Sapphire.  Ditto Sony's marvelous PSX-8 outperformed the LP-12 by even bigger margin.  Do you like the custom rim-drive TT made in GB?

In the late 80s/early 90s at CES, Fanfare Magazine's then-audiophile reviewer Niel Levinson visited our room and mentioned how terrible is the Sota's wow and flutter, and how much better is the Linn's.  It's funny I never noticed it till he mentioned that, then afterwards that's all I heard every record I played.  All the press and awards the Sota won and it took an almost unknown author to point out the obvious. 

The Sota certainly sounded "big," and was impervious to acoustic breakthrough of any kind, not the case with the LP-12 if set up incorrectly, which was easy to do compared to the Sota.           

People have and develop different sensibilities when listening to a stereo.  It's about music, but exists as a medium unto itself, a minifying of a live musical event or reproducing a studio session designed for the medium.  It's only in comparison to the sound of live music that obviates strengths or deficiencies. 
Many hobbyists are unfamiliar or only moderately familiar with the sound of live instruments.  If someone is comparing the sound of an electronic pop record on two different tables and they both sound good but different, which is correct or more right, the one you're used to hearing?

When going from an inexpensive table to one with a more massive platter the improvement in deep bass, depth and solidity is usually impressive.  Unfortunately, this is often accompanied  by speed stability problems that might go unnoticed.  The heavier platter requires a torque delivery system that often is deficient.  Look at the old Goldmund Reference - servo controlled belt drive with a stout belt and a tachometer.   My business partner had a Reference.  I heard it many times - used to help him set the VTA on his VDH.  It didn't have the speed problems of some lesser tables.

I also had an LP12 in the '80's.  It was pre Valhalla and ran slightly fast, but steady.  I got used to that presentation.  When I realized that, I sold the table and got a Goldmund DD.   The Linn had a presentation more like an idler than a belt drive.  I guess it's no wonder the Sotas' would drive me crazy.  The deck is also overdamped and with a vacuum can be downright tortuous.  People would put an SME V (heavily damped arm) on a Star or Nova and I tried to be diplomatic.  About the most I could do was tell them to use minimal vacuum if at all, and lose the damping fluid in the arm. 

I suspect Trans Fi is one of the better bargains of high end.  The table started out using a Teres Verus motor until that was improved with their own design.  The arm is an air bearing linear tracker.  I haven't heard the table, but I would buy it unheard if..... 

I'm not familiar with the Sony PS-X8.  The 7 is a very good table and the 9 is awesome. 
neo

[James Romeyn]

Maybe I had the PSX-7, RAM is failing at this date, too lazy to check images. 

It's funny to think back about the sound of the Sota Star/SME V I heard decades ago.  That combo received dozens of pro accolades, magazine cover shots including the old beloved Audio (US).  I clearly remember nothing about the sound made me jump up and down.  The sound was big, bold, and lacked any trace of feedback no matter how big the speakers, how deep the bass, and how loud was playback level.  But it lacked emotional spark.   

At the time I had no knowledge of the points you listed.  But now, with decades more experience, I can not more heartily agree with everything you typed defining what's wrong with that particular over damped presentation. 

I have a Frank Vignola live jazz trio CD, playing a guitar my friend builds (F.V. Signature).  I've seen Frank play this guitar live several times, and I played one of Frank's guitars, not that arch top, but Frank's mahogany/spruce flat top he played with David Grisman.  Guitarists may find this difficult to believe, but Frank flattened the frets in six months, and he plays a cadre of guitars.  The flat top was in the shop for re-fret.

It's great to sample systems with that CD.  Maybe 2-3x I heard Frank's guitar reproduced with enough realism to generate similar emotional response as live.  Similar, but not the same, like you mentioned above.  One o the times was ModWright 150SE/AudioMachina speakers (made in CO, solid alloy 2-piece enclosures), another was Aesthetix/Vandy 5A (mid range to die for, right where the arch top lives).       

Another example that demonstrates your point: my friend/guitar luthier Ryan Thorell is a good guitarist, mostly jazz, played in his HS band, won an award in HS.  Even though most professional jazz guitarists have more technical prowess, just hearing Ryan play some riffs in his studio is infinitely more appealing, enjoyable, and satisfying than most reproduced jazz guitar, even by some of the best pros.

So much of the "touch" and "nuance" of a superb instrument played by a good musician comes across only live, and even the best recording played on a superb cost no object system somehow falls short.   

[orientalexpress]

Would a SME 309 tone arm be better match  with Teres turntable or With Sota sapphire turntable?currently the Teres have audiomod tone arm on there now.i also have a lenco L75 sitting around ,I'm thinking  about move audiomod tone arm to lenco and SME to Teres.thank you

Lapsan

[neobop]

Would a SME 309 tone arm be better match  with Teres turntable or With Sota sapphire turntable?currently the Teres have audiomod tone arm on there now.i also have a lenco L75 sitting around ,I'm thinking  about move audiomod tone arm to lenco and SME to Teres.thank you
Lapsan

Hi Lapsan,
Interesting proposition, 3 tables and 2 arms.   Assuming the Sota isn't operational yet can we consider the 2 arms on the Teres and Lenco? 

You say the L75 is sitting around.  Is it refurbished, idler wheel in good shape and nice plinth?  I think that deck has a ton of potential.  Do you frequent Lenco Heaven? 
What about the Teres, belt, rim, or DD ?   Off the top of my head my instinct would be for the 309 on the L75 (damped + lively), but you'd really have to try it.  It also depends on your carts.  The mass of the 2 arms is similar so I think you'd have to find that synergistic combo with either set up.  I'd be making armboards for each arm on each table but it requires a bit of work. 

Some years ago at one point all I had was the Sota w/Alphason 100S.  I found a NOS Sonus Formula 4 on fleabey, made an armboard and mounted it on the Sapphire.  The combo had better synergy with med/high cu carts than with the Alphason, and the 100S is no slouch.   BTW, before I forget, the Sota does much better with the original heavier belt from the '80's.   The newer belts are about 2mm wide and almost thin enough to be transparent.  The original belt was 1/4" wide and maybe 1/8" thick.  It had much better speed performance with the heavier belt.  I don't know what they were thinking but.....  You might get better performance with a dental floss belt.  You tie it in a square knot with the bulge on the outside.  I never tried that.  By the time I read about that I had pretty much given up on the Sota.





neo

[neobop]

I revisited the VE thread about the BIN 323 HOMC mentioned on page 57. 
http://www.lpgear.com/product/BIN323.html
Without having heard this cart I think I have an idea of the sound.  Very musical w/exceptional harmonic nuance, although generally not the most detailed.  In the link it's likened to the Grace F9E for stage and 17D3 for overall sound - not bad company for a $330 cart. 

On Halcro's vintage DD thread on Agon, speed correction timing and implications were briefly mentioned.  This is a critical parameter and a large part of what distinguishes the sound of a 1200 from a L-O7D, two extremes of timing and abruptness.  Timing refers to the amount of speed error necessary to induce correction.  Abruptness refers to the amount of torque applied to said correction.   Any thoughts?

One of the VE posters Bauzace50 had a cart audition/review thing a number of years ago on VE.  He called this a bicycle.  Participants would try a cart for a week or two, write a review and mail the cart to the next participant.   It was very interesting and a lot of fun.  People got to hear carts they normally wouldn't have, but there was an element of risk.  What if someone had an accident or a cart got lost in the mail?
I think the last bicycle was a DL-S1.  I participated in this one along with John the chair guy.  BTW, John loved the cart.  B50 is a member here but he doesn't post, in fear of getting kicked off VE (or something like that). 

I doubt if that would work without someone like B50.   I thought you might find it interesting.
neo

[Halcro]

On Halcro's vintage DD thread on Agon, speed correction timing and implications were briefly mentioned.  This is a critical parameter and a large part of what distinguishes the sound of a 1200 from a L-O7D, two extremes of timing and abruptness.  Timing refers to the amount of speed error necessary to induce correction.  Abruptness refers to the amount of torque applied to said correction.   Any thoughts?


neo

There are many theories and thoughts about this subject Neo, but I doubt that anyone can offer more than subjective opinions?
Then again...how many have had the opportunity to hear side by side (within their own systems) many of the acknowledged 'great' classic Japanese DD turntables of the 70s and 80s to make any comparisons?
Models like the Technics SP10 Mk3, Kenwood L-07D, Pioneer Exclusive P3, Victor TT-101, or Denon DP100M?
I think there is a lot of confusion about the quartz-lock correction circuitry specific to each brand of turntable and to the actions of quartz-lock error correction in general? For instance most assume that the platter is never travelling at the correct speed and is always being corrected as it loses speed. I think this is far off the mark with the platter generally travelling at exactly the correct speed with the correction circuitry acting quite sporadically and benignly only when necessary.
I have no direct experience with any DD turntables in my system other than the

TT-101 and the


TT-81
Both these models use Victor's patented bi-directional servo control with correction applied in both the forward and backward directions.
I have no doubts that there are some who are more sensitive to the actions of DD decks than am I but to my ears there are little differences between well-implemented DDs and belt-drives.
I find greater differences between arms and cartridges but if I must choose a preference.....the Victor TT-101 DD (when it is working) would be it....

Regards

[neobop]

There's a lot more than subjective opinion, but you might need a tech or engineer to figure out the fine details.  The most recent posts on the subject:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1317949815&openfrom&560&4#560

Dover's is particularly interesting:
"Page 4 gives you an overview - the L07D uses a dual mode speed control system - if the speed error is below 3% the phase is controlled with a wide lock range and large phase gain. If the speed error exceeds 3% the servo controls speed rather than phase, and applies higher torque. When the servo mode switches from phase to speed control, the coupling changes from DC to AC to minimise influences from the motor drive circuit and motor offset.

Clearly the L07D relies more on platter inertia and phase locking for coping with stylus drag unless the speed error is very high. This is quite a different design to the Technics SP10 solution which relies on a much more aggressive servo speed control system with the DJ market in mind – the ability to start and stop on a dime was more important to the Technics engineers than the Kenwood engineers. I have listened to many L07D’s and SP10mk3’s at length and in my view the difference in servo design and implementation forms a significant difference in presentation, particularly in timing and coherency."

Lewm:
"Dover, I've got a fully refurbished L07D sitting right next to a Krebs-modified SP10 Mk3 which I bought NOS (before replacing all electrolytics and having Bill Thalmann perform the Krebs mod). These are easily the two best turntables I have ever heard in my system, yet they sound very subtly different. Before the Krebs mod was performed on the Mk3, I would say the difference between the two was greater than it is now, in favor of the L07D. But of course, there are more differences between the two than those having to do with the drive system: The tonearms, tonearm wire, and phono cartridges are all different as well. They both feed into the same Atma-sphere MP1 phono stage. But it's fair to say that prior to the Krebs mods, I tended to favor the L07D (with an EMI/RFI shield installed between motor and underside of platter). The Krebs mod keeps the virtues and advantages of the Mk3, absolute firm sense of pace, while ameliorating the rather "clinical" nature of its sound, as compared to the L07D, which might in fact err on the side of romantic but intensely "musical". (I distrust that word, too.) These days, I could live with either, happily, but might now give the edge to Mk3. The Krebs mod is transformative."

This is a great description of the speed correction differences and is basically what I've heard on my Kenny vs most other DD's.  It's not like you hear it all the time.  It's not even noticeable except maybe on certain types of music (piano) when the correction kicks in.  I was only aware of this a couple of times.  This brings up another aspect.  Can non-quartz servo control sound as good or better than quartz locked?   It might be hard to generalize and hard to find a vintage servo DD in top condition, but I suspect so.  The non quartz tables tend to be lesser models so it's even harder to figure this out.  A top model with the option of turning off the quartz lock might give some illumination although the drive system is probably optimized for quartz. 
neo

[Halcro]

We know that Lewm has had the SP10Mk3 and the Kenwood L-07D in his home system for many years and he states that "they sound subtly different".
Dover I don't believe has had both turntables side by side in his home system for comparison, and is commenting from his listening experiences in other systems in other locations...and he states that..."the difference in servo design and implementation forms a significant difference in presentation, particularly in timing and coherency."
Harry Weisfeld of VPI has the SP10Mk2, the Kenwood L-07D, the Denon DP-80 and Victor TT-101 in his system and declares his preference for both the Kenwood and Victor.
The Victors have the lightest platters of them all and thus require less torque to overcome inertia.
What conclusions you can derive from all this are elusive....but all the above sounds and smells decidedly subjective to me...

Regards

[neobop]

We know that Lewm has had the SP10Mk3 and the Kenwood L-07D in his home system for many years and he states that "they sound subtly different".
Dover I don't believe has had both turntables side by side in his home system for comparison, and is commenting from his listening experiences in other systems in other locations...and he states that..."the difference in servo design and implementation forms a significant difference in presentation, particularly in timing and coherency."
Harry Weisfeld of VPI has the SP10Mk2, the Kenwood L-07D, the Denon DP-80 and Victor TT-101 in his system and declares his preference for both the Kenwood and Victor.
The Victors have the lightest platters of them all and thus require less torque to overcome inertia.
What conclusions you can derive from all this are elusive....but all the above sounds and smells decidedly subjective to me...

Regards

Of course preference is subjective.  There are objective reasons for those differences in presentation of which Dover spoke.  Do you think he was exaggerating or making up some of that?
It doesn't matter.  The how and why these tables sound different is what I'm looking for, but somehow I don't think I'll get more information like the Kenwood speed correction timing. 
Harry got his start building plinths for JVC DD (I think).  I wonder if he had an SP10MK3 would his rankings change? 

My Sony X-50 died.  Well, not completely dead, it's running slow.  I think the motor mount is shot and possibly some electronics.  I was using it for mono.
I'm still contemplating a drive for the Sota platter and it looks like I might have to abandon the plinth and make something like you have.  What are your arm pods made of? 
neo

[Halcro]

Do you think he was exaggerating or making up some of that?

Yes I do. Lew says...."subtle" differences. I believe him..

Your Sony died and my TT-101 is with my Tech for speed issues. We're going to replace 3 or 4 PCB chips and hope for the best...
My TT-81 meanwhile, is doing an excellent impersonation. Who said complexity is necessary...?

My armpods are made from solid cast bronze


which are then filled, sanded and painted with two-pack polyurethane in an automotive shop


after which a 10mm thick linished aluminium top-plate (drilled for the specific arm choice) is screwed in.
If you need drawings.....PM me...

Regards

[neobop]

Cast bronze - very nice.  I was wondering about the black finish.  Now I know.
I'm still not sure about the Sota platter.  The drive system will dictate if I keep the plinth/chassis scheme, or not. 

This thread is becoming a realization of your Agon - Living Dangerously.   My Sony and your Victor must be around the same age (1980 or so?).  Life expectancy extended with cap replacement, but the best laid plans.....   Good luck with the chip substitution.

Somewhere I saw a list of DD tables with easy chip substitution (was it your thread?).  Might be something to consider when thinking about a purchase.
 
I actually have two of these Sonys.  I bought them around ten years ago and the first has what seems like a bent spindle.  It has a wicked wobble that seems unnatural.  That's now a parts table which I've never used except to give away a couple of parts.  I always thought the platter/drive had much greater potential than realized.   It's a brushless/slotless motor with a relatively substantial platter.  I was thinking it might not be worth fixing, but maybe I'll take it to my tech to have a look.  If the drive can be salvaged it might be a good candidate for the Halcro mod.   
Without the semi-auto crap (plastic cams on the tonearm) who knows, it might be a great table. 
neo

[neobop]

We last left off with the vintage DD blues.  It turns out my Sony seems to have intermittent AC going to the table - might be just the cord, but I think the arm is shot.  It tilts inward and it's probably from the semi-auto cam pushing on the bottom of the pillar.  The entire arm is loose including the VTA OTF adjuster.  The arm is the weak part of the table, and I'll see if I can remove the arm and use it as a separate spinner.  It has a substantial platter for a DD, and a BSL (brushless/slotless) motor. 

Halcro, how did you make out with the 101 ?

Azimuth - Most people think the results of azimuth alignment are due to the horizontal angle of the needle in-groove.  It's not.  It's due to the physical orientation of the generator to the record, or a tilted moving system/coils.  John Elison posted this on Asylum and he convinced me.  If a needle is off angle it might twist or rotate the cantilever slightly, depending on type, , but crosstalk is dependent on horizontal orientation inside.
For those who didn't see the thread, I thought you might find this of interest.
neo   

[Halcro]

Halcro, how did you make out with the 101 ?
 

The Victor is still with the Tech awaiting the arrival of several replacement 'chips'.
I'm just hoping this may solve the speed-issue problem based on the 'trouble-shooting' page of the manual.
We have no real evidence that any of these chips is faulty.....
If this doesn't work....the TT101 is just an attractive doorstop..

[James Romeyn]

Man those arm pods are sweet. 

Moderator is invited to delete this if too far OT. 

Please recommend preferred arm board material for this TT, performance wise my all time favorite:

• Solid custom 1.5" plinth, aircraft grade aluminum, 32 lbs
• Empire 208 classic belt drive OEM bearing, motor, brass switch, platter underside lined with Dynamat
• Solid thick maple cabinet
• 1" MDF bass, topside with thick Dynamat lining
• Total 72 lbs

Currently only gravity secures the plinth/cabinet/bass; builder later adds fasteners to securely clamp these three structural members, said to increase performance on another identical TT.

Please also recommend arm board thickness: 5mm above the plinth, thickness exceeding 5mm is countersunk.   

Board fastens with four screws into threaded plinth hole, one screw per corner, M6 or 1/4".  Arm board dimensions 93mm x 93mm.

Thanks!   

[Halcro]

Man those arm pods are sweet. 

Moderator is invited to delete this if too far OT. 

Please recommend preferred arm board material for this TT, performance wise my all time favorite:

• Solid custom 1.5" plinth, aircraft grade aluminum, 32 lbs
• Empire 208 classic belt drive OEM bearing, motor, brass switch, platter underside lined with Dynamat
• Solid thick maple cabinet
• 1" MDF bass, topside with thick Dynamat lining
• Total 72 lbs

Currently only gravity secures the plinth/cabinet/bass; builder later adds fasteners to securely clamp these three structural members, said to increase performance on another identical TT.

Please also recommend arm board thickness: 5mm above the plinth, thickness exceeding 5mm is countersunk.   

Board fastens with four screws into threaded plinth hole, one screw per corner, M6 or 1/4".  Arm board dimensions 93mm x 93mm.

Thanks!

Hi James,
Glad you like the armpods...
Not sure if your following questions were directed at me.....but a few photos would allow for more meaningful input.....

[James Romeyn]

Good timing...I was just about to pack it for the builder/Master Machinist...will take image before I pack.