Stereo Maestro's with a pair of Panorama's and an R-DES

budyog · « **on:** 27 Sep 2006, 06:59 pm »

I received my 2nd Maestro about 4 months ago, finally got it in to the house and set up about a month ago, played it on its own for several hours to get it a little broken in, then put the new version of the R-DES in line and made about 30 some adjustments with the SPL meter and now I got my pair of Maestro’s at +4 db from 17Hz to 80Hz and holy cow does it sound sweet!

I have been using a single sub for about 10 years including a couple Velodyne models and then a year or so ago being that I love ACI speakers & company and went from the Sapphire3s to the Panorama’s, I had to purchase the big one. I sold my Velodyne HGS-15X immediately. The Maestro blew it away in all sub aspects. I have wondered what stereo Maestro’s with the Panorama’s would sound like. Then Mike said they were changing the look so I placed my order for the very last Maestro to match my other older version Maestro. And all these years I was told bass is non-directional.
It may be if it is recorded that way. I have listened to many recordings and can’t believe some of the very low bass sometimes more to one side or the other. I have always been a fan of a big sound with a stereo system and now I really have it.

This set up with the R-DES in line and tuned the way I have it gives me extreme punch, low Hz down to 16 (that is where the test disc starts) up to around 80 and then the Panorama’s kick in and take it from there. I have lots of headroom with the 2 Maestro ICE amps which are only set a bit over ¼ volume.
The sound is very full from wall to wall and floor to ceiling. With everything dialed in so well, even my Panorama’s sound better, which is very hard to imagine? I am sure it is because with a sub on each side, I have a fuller sound coming out. Things sound more even and precise.

Looking at the graph I plotted out with the R-DES interface, it is amazing how much I had to remove to get an almost flat response. If you have a sub and do not have an R-DES, get one. It is a super piece of equipment. I will even tweak mine some more to get it closer to +1, 2 db down the road and also set up a few other options being that the R-DES has a total of 4 choices.
I have also notice that I am not playing my system as loud as before to get the same results. A pair of Panorama’s and a pair of Maestro’s and an R-DES has brought me up to another level in my quest for my ultimate hi-fi system; of course everything else downstream must be added to the equation of why my system sound sooooo good!

I will be updating my photo gallery soon; I made some pretty cool stands for my Panorama’s sitting on top of my Maestro’s.

Here is my tip to couple my Maestro’s to my harwood floors and my Panorama’s to the Maestro’s. I am using Con-Tact brand, non-adhesive Ultra grip Liner. It works great. Nothing moves. Everything is solid to my floor! I have tried floor spikes with hardwood floor protectors and just did not like them. I also have my ports plugged and the ACI 85Hz high-pass filter in line to the Panorama's.

I am sad to hear the ACI is discontinuing the Panorama’s. They are a very fine speaker, built like a tank, can take all I have to give and just get better sounding with age. Mike, you outdid yourself with them and the Maestro. What a setup. I am happy, happy, happy!

MaxCast · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Sep 2006, 07:23 pm »

Hey Bud,
Are you running the Panorama's full range?

opnly bafld · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Sep 2006, 09:57 pm »

Quote from: budyog on 27 Sep 2006, 06:59 pm

I also have my ports plugged and the ACI 85Hz high-pass filter in line to the Panorama's.

MaxCast · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 01:13 am »

Quote from: opnly bafld on 27 Sep 2006, 09:57 pm

Quote from: budyog on 27 Sep 2006, 06:59 pm
I also have my ports plugged and the ACI 85Hz high-pass filter in line to the Panorama's.

Thanks

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Oct 2006, 11:53 am »

Budy:

One of these days I want to make it up "north" to hear your system. I know the care and time you've expended to dial that system in. I agree with you on R-DES, yes it takes a little work, but it can turn very good bass quality into GREAT bass quality. I'll say the same thing about stereo subs. Neither of these approaches is for the folks who can't or won't expend the extra effort to make it come together. Both approaches are perfect for someone like you who wants the very best sound and is willing to put the time into making it happen. Notice I didn't say money

You're system isn't inexpensive by any means . . . but I know people who have more money in just their main speakers or just their electronics who are not even close to what you have. Congratulations, I'd love to see some pictures!

budyog · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Oct 2006, 11:00 pm »

Mike, as I have said many times, the invite is always open, I am easy to find and I think you will find it quite enjoyable but you would probably have to spend the night, remember I said, I have 2 and sometimes 3 Summits on tap all the time! aa Here would be you and me!

I owe you!

You know what is also really nice is that even at very low volume, the low end is so strong, not loud, strong and there. Remember the days of the loudness button? That R-DES is such a nice piece of equipment. With all the room peaks gone, it so nice to here the low end the way it should sound. tight and clean through the whole range, and boy do these Maestro's go looooooooooooowwwwwww!

Talk about live concert feeling

Whoosty, this system rocks my socks off!
Having 2 subwoofers is the only way to go

Pictures coming as soon as I get my camera back, hopefully next week!

budyog · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Oct 2006, 10:50 pm »

Here are a couple of pics with my custom I-beam stands!
There are many more in my gallery.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;user=3646

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Oct 2006, 05:14 pm »

Very cool stands!

Eric · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Oct 2006, 05:33 pm »

Cool set up

budyog · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Dec 2006, 05:55 pm »

I just have to say, WOW Mike! What a set up. Last night I was pushing my system to a new limit and boy was it sounding SWEEEEET. I was putting mega watts into those wonderful Panoramas’s. The new Larry Coryell, Victor Bailey and Lenny White SACD “Traffic” is recorded almost like direct to disc with a single point microphone, very few effects and in a church. It is beautiful. I had it crank so loud, I finally blew a 5 amp, amp speaker fuse and the Panorama’s took it with ease and having good source material and super AVA equipment before the Panorama’s helps make the whole package. I was not putting any crap into them, just 3 superb musicians cranking out some super fusion jazz, shaking our pant legs and totally blowing me and my buddy away, again aa. Thanks for building bullet proof, superbly sounding speaks. They rock!

Happy Holidays to all!

budyog · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jan 2007, 03:27 pm »

I was listening to my system the other day after many months of not touching a thing and now that the other sub is near broken in. I rechecked my responses with the DB meter. Boy things have changed. After a few tweaks, I got those measurements closer to flat again but still working on it but I have been noticing something else over the past few years. Every time something sounds so good I tend to sit up at the edge of my couch closer to the speakers by a couple of feet and it always seemed to sound better, bigger and fuller. I would move forward to about 9' from the speakers in the center compared to my 12' where I normally sit. My Panorama’s are about 9' apart, so I tweaked them out, facing almost straight forward. What a difference it has made.
I am going to be moving them a little closer to each other and firing them straight forward in the next few days. I have never faced my speakers straight forward. I do no, If one likes it, then that is how it should be. Just curious if you have any thought Mike? Do a lot of people put them closer together and face them straight forward?

Never to old to try something new and maybe learn something!

.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Jan 2007, 03:53 pm »

A couple of things are happening. As you change angles, you are changing the amount of reflected sound and where it is reflecting from. Generally, the correct amount of toe-in yields a rock solid center image with plenty of soundstage width. By eliminating the toe-in, you are probably reducing the "solidness" of the center image slightly, but creating a sense of greater expansiveness.

Also, when you move the speakers closer together or change your listening position you change how the speakers are interacting with the room and the at the seat frequency response changes slightly.

You point out something VERY important . . . there is NO substitute for taking the time to experiment with speaker and listener placement. It can be the difference between good and GREAT sound. Thanks for bringing it up, I hope more folks will spend some time with this . . . fun, informative, and productive

Joe Kramer · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Mar 2007, 06:16 pm »

Hi Budyog,

You have a very nice system!

I have a couple of questions concerning your stereo Maestros.
I am currently using a multi-channel SS pre-pro, but want to try stereo subs in a two channel setup. I would like to split the output from the preamp and use ACI’s in-line filters, probably the 85 Hz. But will consider the 65 Hz unit.
My concerns are:
A) Is the 6 db/octave filter steep enough? Do you feel it should be steeper? and
B) Will there be loading problems with a tube pre driving a SS power amp and the sub?
I am curious how others are driving stereo subs? Would I be better off using the balanced filters from ACI, with single ended adapters? (ie: 12db/octave?)
Thanks,
Joe

oris98 · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Mar 2007, 07:47 pm »

Hi Budyog,

How big is your room ? and what is the dimension ? I am using a pair of Force for stereo sub as well. I always wondering if upgrading to a pair of Titian or Maestro will give me much for my 17'x17' room.

Thanks.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Mar 2007, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: Joe Kramer on 6 Mar 2007, 06:16 pm

Hi Budyog,

You have a very nice system!
I have a couple of questions concerning your stereo Maestros.
I am currently using a multi-channel SS pre-pro, but want to try stereo subs in a two channel setup. I would like to split the output from the preamp and use ACI’s in-line filters, probably the 85 Hz. But will consider the 65 Hz unit.
My concerns are:
A) Is the 6 db/octave filter steep enough? Do you feel it should be steeper? and
B) Will there be loading problems with a tube pre driving a SS power amp and the sub?
I am curious how others are driving stereo subs? Would I be better off using the balanced filters from ACI, with single ended adapters? (ie: 12db/octave?)
Thanks,
Joe

Joe:

What are you using for main speakers? That's what we need to know to recommend the high-pass filters.

budyog · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Mar 2007, 08:48 pm »

Quote from: Joe Kramer on 6 Mar 2007, 06:16 pm

Hi Budyog,

You have a very nice system!
I have a couple of questions concerning your stereo Maestros.
I am currently using a multi-channel SS pre-pro, but want to try stereo subs in a two channel setup. I would like to split the output from the preamp and use ACI’s in-line filters, probably the 85 Hz. But will consider the 65 Hz unit.
My concerns are:
A) Is the 6 db/octave filter steep enough? Do you feel it should be steeper? and
B) Will there be loading problems with a tube pre driving a SS power amp and the sub?
I am curious how others are driving stereo subs? Would I be better off using the balanced filters from ACI, with single ended adapters? (ie: 12db/octave?)
Thanks,
Joe

Thanks Mike for chiming in on this one. You would be able to answer this much better then me!

With my Panorama's I am using the ACI 85Hz filters into my AVA-350 and the other set of preamp outs to my R-DES, then Y-cording it into my 2-Maestro amps using the 4th order with a 24DB octave rolloff so I can fine tune using the rolloff on the Maestro amps.
That seems to sound very good to me.

Quote from: oris98 on 6 Mar 2007, 07:47 pm

Hi Budyog,

How big is your room ? and what is the dimension ? I am using a pair of Force for stereo sub as well. I always wondering if upgrading to a pair of Titian or Maestro will give me much for my 17'x17' room.

Thanks.

My room is 14 x 17 with a 9 foot ceiling. They kick arse! But I do recommend the use of an R-DES. It is the key to good strong tight bass! Well worth the extra cash.

mfsoa · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Mar 2007, 09:14 pm »

Budyog,
First of all someone who lists Gentle Giant and BrandX in the same thread deserves an Attaboy!

A few questions for you please:
- I'm not sure I follow your connection to the stereo subs. Sounds like your preamp has two pairs of outputs one of which goes to the filters-AVA-Panorama. But then

Quote

the other set of preamp outs to my R-DES, then Y-cording it into my 2-Maestro amps

I'm confused about the Y-cording. Isn't the R-DES a stereo (or dual mono if you will) unit that has L/R inputs and L/R outputs (the same EQ is applied to each channel, right?), so you wouldn't need any Y-connectors? Or are you using a ".1" output for theater use? - Maybe that's my answer. Just trying to visualize how you have this set up.

- Have you noticed any change in sound w/ the 85 hz filters? Are they totally benign?

Thanks

-Mike

oris98 · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Mar 2007, 10:51 pm »

My understanding for RDES is it is a mono EQ device even it has L/R Input and Output as you pointed out same EQ apply to both. That is the reason why I didn't go for RDES. If you really want to run stereo subs, you need two RDES (one for each channel) and apply separate EQ curve to each channel.

Please let use know how you like the 85hz high pass filter ? THanks.

mfsoa · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Mar 2007, 11:09 pm »

I thought the conclusion from another thread was that the R-DES will pass a stereo signal without summing the channels - (like the Velodyne SMS does) but that it does apply the same EQ to both channels. Of course ideally you would want to have separate EQ for each side, but I wonder how you could possible measure them independantly to get the proper eq for each. If you did one at a time, you would be ignoring interaction w/ the other - Do 'em together and you can't tell which needs what!
Anyway I'd still like to know about the R-DES. Needing 2 for 2 subs changes the $$ equation.
I haven't been able to find the manual online.
Thanks, anyone who knows!

budyog · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Mar 2007, 11:20 pm »

Quote from: mfsoa on 7 Mar 2007, 09:14 pm

Budyog,
First of all someone who lists Gentle Giant and BrandX in the same thread deserves an Attaboy!

A few questions for you please:
- I'm not sure I follow your connection to the stereo subs. Sounds like your preamp has two pairs of outputs one of which goes to the filters-AVA-Panorama. But then
Quote
the other set of preamp outs to my R-DES, then Y-cording it into my 2-Maestro amps

I'm confused about the Y-cording. Isn't the R-DES a stereo (or dual mono if you will) unit that has L/R inputs and L/R outputs (the same EQ is applied to each channel, right?), so you wouldn't need any Y-connectors? Or are you using a ".1" output for theater use? - Maybe that's my answer. Just trying to visualize how you have this set up.

- Have you noticed any change in sound w/ the 85 hz filters? Are they totally benign?

Thanks

-Mike

Mike, yes, My AVA T7SLR has 2 pre outs. One goes to sub amps and one goes to the mains.
I use a Y cord out of the left channel of the R-DES to both the left and the right input of the left Maestro amp and another Y cord out of the right of the R-DES to the left and the right input of the right Maestro amp.
I have not noticed any change with the 85HZ filter in-line except nothing below 85HZ. They must be benign! Since I went to 2 Maestros, I put the 85s back in. I tried the 65s but at higher volumes, that was to much of a strain on the Panorama woofer when I had 1 Maestro. The Maestros work wonderfully from 85 and down. I think I actually have them rolling off around 80.

I am a big fan of both Gentle Giant and Brand X. Some of Phill Collins best stuff. and knowbody can touch Gentle Giant!

Quote from: oris98 on 7 Mar 2007, 10:51 pm

My understanding for RDES is it is a mono EQ device even it has L/R Input and Output as you pointed out same EQ apply to both. That is the reason why I didn't go for RDES. If you really want to run stereo subs, you need two RDES (one for each channel) and apply separate EQ curve to each channel.

Please let use know how you like the 85hz high pass filter ? THanks.

This question came up on here before about the R-DES being mono. So I called Sean at AV123 and asked him. He said no, the R-DES is a stereo digital sub EQ. If you have doubts, call him and ask him to address this issue on AC.