[Guy 13]

Hi all,
I run my Omega 7F Open Baffle dipole directly from my Decware SE84C+ amplifier
without any crossover, capacitor, etc... and it sounds great.
So, I don't add/change anything.

Guy 13



 

[-Richard-]

I think you have captured the most important issue of what our participation in the DIY Open Baffle exploration really means, Mark. It is the elevation and pure pleasure of the subjective experience of listening to music in one’s home, perfectly suited to one’s unique taste, and listening preferences.

That is why we seek to de-couple ourselves from the addiction of feeling that we are limited to commercial speaker choices for our home audio systems. And that besides the fact that we prefer and enjoy the Open Baffle home-audio musical experience over boxed speakers.

In designing our own Open Baffle speakers, around our unique and individual sense of what brings the music fully alive for each of us, which naturally includes our choices for amplification, we can create a predictable experience of the pure pleasure and delight that music brings into our lives.

One size-fits-all is not the spirit of our community. And that leads me to to express how strange it strikes me that so many audio enthusiasts are willing to assume how a system sounds without ever hearing it, opinions based solely on measurements. I do not take issue with this practice. Hopefully we are all having fun with audio and with being participating members of Audiocircle. I am merely suggesting that we may be doing ourselves a disservice to assume that we know how an audio system sounds without ever hearing it. Also, our emphasis on using measurements as a form of ‘reality’, may be an expression of our need for certainty. We live, after all, in an uncertain world; being able to find a sense of certainty somewhere may give us a sense of comfort, and ‘measurements' may seem like a likely candidate for that need for certainty.

For Deborah and I, our 'sound' reference is live un-amplified music.

After all, what does it really mean when we say ‘better’, or ‘more’, or even the idea of ‘performance’?. We can honestly ask ourselves, ‘better’ than what?, ‘more’ than what?, and what do we mean by ‘performance’?. I realize that any audio system can be ‘optimized’, which is to say more finely-tuned to sound closer to ones ideal musical experience. And measurements may help us to that end. But here is precisely where the 'subjective' nature of one’s home audio experience plays such an important part. And there are so many approaches to what constitutes a really effective audio set-up that usually we are awash with too many possibilities, too many choices; it can have a numbing or dizzying effect. Often someone bitten with the excitement of hearing music at home that is really exciting, does not know how to begin, with so many apparent choices.

I want to address those new members of our community that are on the fence and not sure if entering the DIY Open Baffle exploration makes sense for them. I would like to share with you that I think it most certainly does make sense. Both Deborah and I have learned enormously what we actually love about experiencing home audio, that sense of utter aliveness, that spatial dimension, the sense of ‘presence’ that seems to saturate the air of the room. And one can begin very inexpensively, as most of the long-time members of our community, including myself, have done. The learning one experiences about the subjective nature of audio when one embarks on the DIY path is life-altering; at least for those of us who derive great pleasure at finding the home-audio experience exciting.

One learns as one goes along. I honestly do not think it is important to know everything about speaker design to get one’s feet wet. Just jump in and experiment a little. See what happens. Einstein said that ‘imagination is far more important than knowledge’. I would like to add that personal discovery is far more important than having a ‘map’ that is supposed to represent the ‘absolute’ in terms of measurements. Some understanding of driver compatibility is helpful, also how many watts it takes to get a particular driver (or more than one driver) to play at a satisfying room volume.

Suggestions by our members here on the Audiocircle Open Baffle forum is a fantastic resource and source of inspiration and help.

And again, Mark, you are entirely right when you suggest that I am enjoying my present audio set-up. Deborah will not let me change it for now. She is too intoxicated with it.

Lovely set-up Guy 13.

Happy Listening. With Warmest Friendship ~ Richard

[matevana]

After signing-up for the Premium service I chose the highest resolution stream, 320 kbps, that they currently offer.I began to stream music into my new system and was immediately stunned. What I heard, and continue to hear, is the most exquisite musical presentation I have ever heard from an audio system.

That's a pretty bold statement, considering what you are listening to is likely transcoded, compressed, lossy files subject to a fair amount of jitter. Considering the potential design issues Martin astutely points out, "the most exquisite musical presentation I have ever heard from any audio system" begs the question, what is your reference point? What systems have you heard that this apparently trumps all?

[-Richard-]

I read recently, sorry I don't now remember the source, a suggestion that the way some streaming services compress their files actually does something special to the sound of the music. I realize that this sounds counter-intuitive. However, I suspected it the moment I heard the music streaming from Spotify on their currently highest resolution of 320 Kbits. A week or so before I had changed my internet/phone service to a provider that delivers extremely fast download and upload speeds, which could also be helping to deliver the 320 Kbit stream efficiently.

I am not suggesting that this set-up is the last word in home audio reproduction. To suggest that my enthusiasm for what I am hearing 'trumps all' is to misread my intentions in sharing my posts with our community. Admittedly, in the strange world of home audio, with so many hobbyists charged with strong reactions to what they read, writing anything subjective about ones set-up seems to be like setting fires to dry woods.

It could very well be that my next system, if I choose to have a next system, will sound better than this one. Who knows?

I have already mentioned that my reference point is live unamplified music and voice. I built a very lovely fully-keyed double-strung unfretted  clavichord when I was in my twenties and played it often. Tuning it was the hard part. It was extremely sensitive to variations in room temperature and the presence of any moister in the air. It took me months to learn how to tune it correctly, and there are several tuning schemes. The clavichord projects considerably more overtone information than the piano, which sounds quite dull by comparison. The several years I played and tuned the clavichord, taught me how to listen sensitively.

  I no longer have the clavichord, but I currently play a classical guitar daily, not particularly well, but it allows me to stay in touch with the natural beauty of plucked strings. Deborah and I also attend the master classes given at the Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara each year, and live unamplified musical performances at the Santa Barbara Museum of Art in their small but sonically well-designed theater.

My interest in audio started when I was 12 years old. A neighbor studying to be a classical music conductor seemed to know everyone in Brooklyn with a sophisticated audio set-up, and he invited me to tag along with him and his friends to hear what their systems sounded like. My father, who loved music and played the piano, responded to my enthusiasm for audio by purchasing a modest set-up for me a year later. 12" Wharfedale co-axial speakers in an open-back cabinet (essentially Open Baffle) driven by a Pilot tube receiver. I blissfully listened to music for the rest of my life on some sort of audio set-up according to what my budget could tolerate.

When Deborah and I got together, over 30 years ago, we began to visit audio stores, including audio shows, to listen to a wide variety of gear. Deborah's love of music is at least as intense as mine, if not more so. She studied piano in her youth, and her father, who was a avid jazz buff, had a nice all-in-one Magnavox stereo cabinet, ubiquitous in many American homes at the time, driven by a tube amplifier, that the family listened to. I heard it and it was rather nice. It turned out that Deborah was very sensitive to audio gear. For example she cringes at most solid state amplification and prefers the sound of tube gear. She has a better 'ear' than I do and can hear qualities of audio gear far sooner than I can.

I recently spoke to a very nice member of Audiocircle who has almost the exact same set-up as I do; Alnico Lowther drivers, Yamamoto 45 SET amplifier in Open Baffle configuration. His experience and knowledge in all things audio far exceeds mine. He told me "do not change a thing, you are 98% there". He also noted that the Lowther's in his set-up do not go below 100 Hz and probably do not even go below 200 Hz. His crossover for his bass drivers is high like mine. He mentioned that 250 to 300 Hz worked well for him, as it does for me.

Martin's concerns for the Lowther's being over-driven in the bass does not seem to apply in my set-up being that they are driven by a 2-watt amplifier and the bass has a natural cut-off around 250 to 300 Hz, in their small baffle area of my current OB panels.

Please do not take what I have just written as a defense to support my response to what Deborah and I are hearing in our current set-up. Even if I never heard an audio system before, and I wrote enthusiastically of what I thought I was currently hearing, it would still be entirely valid.

I am only giving you, in a brief encapsulation, what you asked for, "... begs the question, what is your reference point? What systems have you heard that this apparently trumps all?"

This hobby is entirely subjective, even if human nature being what it is, we wish for something 'certain', something 'objective' that we can rest upon. If you are happy with your current set-up, than anything 'positive' that I write, or anyone else writes for that matter, should not feel like a challenge.

With Warmest Friendship ~ Richard

[versus rider]

Richard, it's great to read you are content with your set up. The Yamamoto 45 amp is without doubt a fine amplifier and  combined with lowthers, even with their inherent flaws will sound magical but still a compromise. I know I've been there. I am now embarking on another Lowther project even though I am happy with my set up and treated room. I suggest you consider others suggestions for improvements and at least read them as your own posts are extremely long and drawn out. One guaranteed improvement in the bass I can see is to brace  across the magnet to stiffen the frame of the eminence drivers, something I got from a member here and gives cleaner tighter bass and allowed me to run the alphas I used to reach 350 hz and meet my 200hz tractrix horns. Before bracing the magnets 200hz was as high as was bearable. It's a simple mod that doesn't ruin the aesthetics of your baffles. Best regards to you

[matevana]

A week or so before I had changed my internet/phone service to a provider that delivers extremely fast download and upload speeds, which could also be helping to deliver the 320 Kbit stream efficiently.

About 15% of Spotify's premium catalog is comprised of 44.1kHz CD quality samples; the majority are transcoded lossy MP3's.  Regardless of the streaming speed, this is what you are hearing. 

I am not suggesting that this set-up is the last word in home audio reproduction.

Your quote, not mine. That's why I asked for your reference point. If you haven't yet heard some of the quality offerings that are out there, ala Linkwitz, John K, MJK, etc., that is fine... but it also puts your comments in a different light.     

Martin's concerns for the Lowther's being over-driven in the bass does not seem to apply in my set-up being that they are driven by a 2-watt amplifier and the bass has a natural cut-off around 250 to 300 Hz, in their small baffle area of my current OB panels.

You may not be able to hear frequencies in your setup below 250 Hz due to cancellation, but that still doesn't affect cone movement, over excursion and the resulting increase in distortion to the frequencies you are hearing. I believe Martin's comments are very relevant to your situation. Try a simple high pass filter as others have suggested. You have nothing to lose.   

This hobby is entirely subjective, even if human nature being what it is, we wish for something 'certain', something 'objective' that we can rest upon.

I disagree. There is at least as much objectivity to the science behind this hobby as there is subjectivity to the art. I believe there are one or two others on here who might agree.

[-Richard-]

Your quote, not mine. That's why I asked for your reference point. If you haven't yet heard some of the quality offerings that are out there, ala Linkwitz, John K, MJK, etc., that is fine... but it also puts your comments in a different light.

What 'light' are you referring to matevana? I have not heard those 'offerings'. Obviously you have, and you like what you heard. I fail to see what that has to do with my appreciation and enjoyment of my current set-up. Are you suggesting I withdraw my enthusiasm for what I am experiencing with my OB system because you, or anyone else, have heard offerings that you imagine are better?

About 15% of Spotify's premium catalog is comprised of 44.1kHz CD quality samples; the majority are transcoded lossy MP3's.  Regardless of the streaming speed, this is what you are hearing.

This is wonderful news for me!! It means that once my 'source' improves in resolution, I should be hearing far less distortion, far more subtle, detailed, smoother and refined musical reproduction. This is exciting to look forward to!!! Perhaps Tidal with a reasonably sophisticated streamer/dac combination can bring that about. I am waiting for something like the soon to be released Auralic Aries Mini, at $400 before I switch to Tidal. I am currently using my iPad mini as 'streaming device' with its non-audiophile grade dac. The improvements should be substantial.

When something 'hits my ear' in musical reproduction, that sounds like live music, both for instruments and voice, I rejoice. Because I love music. Because I love what music seems to do for me. It sends me into another zone of perception. The more subtle the music the better. I don't generally like noisy, busy sounding music; I do not usually prefer large symphonic works, for example. That is why I prefer small ensembles. The best performance I ever heard of Amy Winehouse was in an English pub with just a guitar to accompany her. The best album I ever heard of Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson was their shared album "Story Tellers" on the American Recordings label, highly recommended. Just themselves and their guitars. God but Willie could make his guitar sing. The Bach pieces I go to practically every day are his sonatas played by just a piano and violin by Tenenbaum and Kapp, highly recommended. It is music's potential to bring about a perceptual transformative experience, to plunge me into depths of feeling, perhaps unreachable by any other art form, that stimulates my interest in home audio.

That I, or anyone, can touch that sense of 'aliveness' with a simple set-up like mine is astounding to me. Enough to prompt me to write about it on this forum and to share it with others who might be considering an OB set-up.

I suggest you consider others suggestions for improvements and at least read them as your own posts are extremely long and drawn out.

I read everything anyone writes very carefully, versus rider, and consider all suggestions. I am extremely grateful to everyone in our community who has offered advice.

One guaranteed improvement in the bass I can see is to brace across the magnet to stiffen the frame of the eminence drivers...

OK, I am thinking about the easiest way to implement that. Thanks!

Warmest Friendship ~ Richard

[matevana]

Are you suggesting I withdraw my enthusiasm for what I am experiencing with my OB system because you, or anyone else, have heard offerings that you imagine are better?

What I heard, and continue to hear, is the most exquisite musical presentation I have ever heard from an audio system.

If someone said, "it is the best car I have ever driven", I might ask, "what other cars have you driven?" The answer would help us understand your perspective.

My question would be the same, regardless as to whether you spent years designing, evaluating, and refining your system or simply slapped two drivers together with a coil.   

Thanks,

[Poultrygeist]

Richard,

I always enjoy your posts and wish that I could be as expressive as you are.

FWIW I've tried my 2a3 SET powered Lowthers and plate amp powered Alphas with an electronic crossover and without.

While folks might say the active produced a more technically correct sound it took away some of that remarkable sense of realism, the purity of sound and depth that comes with an unfiltered SET/Lowther.

Jacob George designer of Rethm Speakers ( which use Lowthers ) says "use the wide bander as a wide bander with no restrictions whatsoever. No filters. And just bring in the bass to fill in what the wide bander can not do."

I've tried Lowthers over H-frames which are fine but double Alphas in parallel per side on flat baffles gives more bass output. It also allows use of a less powerful amp.


 

[-Richard-]

Hi Poultrygeist ~ You are very generous and kind. Your observations are extremely instructive. Dan Mason hated filters, especially when they robbed small-watt Single Ended Triode amplifiers of their precious energy, which they inherently do.

If we could design our own drivers for Open Baffle applications, something Dan could easily have done if a few manufacturers had acted on his suggestions, there would be no need for any filters, active or passive. It is our 'off-the-shelf' use of available drivers with their variable performance anomalies, at least in staying 'flat' through their frequency range, that forces some DIY and professional users to turn to filters to 'tame' peaks or dips.

It is well-known by aficionados of SET amplifiers that they can sometimes help to 'integrate' some or all of those driver anomalies without the use of filters somewhere in the circuit. The 'magic' you refer to, the "remarkable sense of realism, the purity of sound and depth that comes with an unfiltered SET/Lowther", cannot even be imagined unless one hears it for oneself. It is what keeps us, you and I and so many others, continuing to want to bring SET low-watt tube amplifiers and high-db sensitive wide-range drivers together in the OB paradigm. It is a subtle 'aliveness' that is intoxicating once heard, and perhaps just importantly, once understood, as qualitatively different from other amplifier and driver combinations.

I suspect that if someone using 'off the shelf' solid state amplifiers is used to applying filters to drivers, when a driver is exhibiting erratic performance behavior, the idea of not using a filter must seem irresponsible, or suggesting a lack of design follow-through. However, once a sensitive listener understands the potential 'magic' of the SET amplifier and high-sensitivity wide-range driver combination, and has heard what filters do to that magic, they will understand our reluctance to introduce anything into the circuit that would bleach-out or 'flatten' that sense of magic. Personally, I would rather put up with some level of frequency anomaly rather than lose that magic. It is seeking and discovering that magic that keeps me engaged in exploring design solutions to home audio.

Thanks so much for your clarification, Poultrygeist. You have made things exceeding clear.

With Warmest Friendship ~ Richard
 

[Retsel]

I agree with Martin.  High-passing the Lowther on open baffle is the way to go.  If you are going to use active filtration, then you need a really transparent active filtering method or else you will loose something.  If the Lowthers are "trying" to reproduce the bass, they are flopping around and muddying up the midrange.  There are ways to do this with passive filtration, but with a small baffle, you will loose a lot of efficiency.  The 15 ohm Lowthers have 3 mm of X-max, so they can move quite a bit before distortion begins to pick up, even still, let the woofer handle the bass which frees up the Lowther.  If you biamp the system, you can roll off the frequencies to your tube amps, improving their efficiency and their sound quality too.  This is the ultimate set-up.

When I put together my Lowther DX4 based OB system, I used Dick Olsher's Basszilla plans, which included a passive crossover for the Lowther and it avoided the guessing and experimentation about how to do this.  But the Basszilla used a wider baffle with some rear wings. 

Retsel   

[Horizons]

Richard: I have truly enjoyed your posts for years. You should write professionally!

Please continue to share your experiences and enjoying Spotify at 320 KB. Most audiophiles scoff at any compression but blind AB testing reveals that this is purely psychological. I bought the lie too for many years that compressed audio was inferior. However, the latest compression options show that blind listeners cannot discern between >192 KB and uncompressed audio. To be safe, I listen to 256 KB, AAC format. From time to time, I compare to full WAV files on very high end equipment and no one in my family or circle of friends can hear the differences under blind conditions.

http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showforum=1

If all audiophile products needed FDA approval with blind testing for efficacy, 90% of them would never be sold. Better to focus on what IS actually relevant to the audiophile experience - source material, proper amp/speaker compatibility, speaker design, speaker/room interaction, etc.

It sounds like your priorities are properly aligned!

Good listening to you and Deb!

[-Richard-]

Hi Horizons ~ You are very kind and generous. I am extremely interested in your keen observations that "Most audiophiles scoff at any compression but blind AB testing reveals that this is purely psychological." What an amazing insight that is!!

When the recordings are well-engineered, the quality of sound I am hearing streaming from Spotify are startlingly good.

"Better to focus on what IS actually relevant to the audiophile experience" Beautifully said, Horizons.

If I was to try to explain what I thought I was looking for, the quality of sound I was hoping to achieve, before this current set-up came together, it would not reflect what I am now experiencing. I thought I was after, above every other consideration, a kind of 'transparency'. Of course I was basing my projections purely on past experience. However, there is a quality of sound that I am currently hearing that I have not heard before in any audio set-up I have experienced, it is new for me; it is an immediacy that is tempered by being tonally ripe, that hits the ear like a well-seasoned musical instrument.

In this sense, I can say that the current set-up has a 'personality' of its own. It is not simply an 'open window' to the music, it affects the listener in a similar way, and this is just to suggest an example, that an older well-designed musical instrument, like a violin, sounds in comparison to a new instrument. I do not mean that the music is particularly 'colored' in any way, that everything sounds the same. But there is something intrinsically musical, even accessible in the music, as if the various 'mechanical' machinery in the chain of events from the original recording to my room, simply vanish, leaving one freshly in contact with the source. Deborah mentioned "I do not hear anything mechanical in the music, it sounds real!".

I like your emphasis, Horizons, on the role that our conditioning plays on our 'perception'. Very astute observations!

With Warmest Friendship ~ Richard

[flavo]

Hi Richard and thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I'm wondering about your past systems that were inferior to this new one? I'm new to OB so any thing you share is and has been helpful to me.
Were your past OB's well regarded plans that just didn't play well in your home and ear? Or were they more of a throw of it together and see what sticks kind of thing?
I don't want to go cheap the 1st time but $2500 for a pair of drivers just isn't in the cards.
Maybe if you could expand upon what they were a little? And if there is something you remember specifically not liking about them?
Thanks for anything you wish to share.
Michael

[-Richard-]

Hi Michael ~ It is my pleasure to help in any way that I can, especially if you want to get started building your own DIY Open Baffle set-up.

I am not sure why there is a sense that my past OB projects were 'inferior' to what I am hearing now. They were quite good actually, and Deborah and I loved them while we were using them. It is just that what I am now hearing suits our music choices better and has a more 'relaxed' tonal presentation without losing the all-important dynamically charged 'presence' or immediacy that helps to make music sound 'real'.

I honestly don't think it is necessary to spend a lot of money. I certainly did not for most of the 9 years I worked with DIY OB projects. Everything I purchased was 'cheap' by any standard, but the performance was quite incredible, owing I think, to what the Open Baffle paradigm does to charge the room with a 'presence' and 'immediacy' that saturates the air in an entirely different way than how box speakers perform, with their front firing highly directional characteristics.

I mentioned in my original post that started this thread that spending a considerable amount of money on drivers like the Lowther PM5 Ticonals, which as you mentioned is $2500 the pair, does not reflect the 'spirit' of our original intentions as a DIY community to try to avoid high priced components.

I spent that money for a few reasons. One is that I have always wondered what the Alnico PM5's would sound like driven by a well-designed 45 SET amplifier. Over the years I have found myself checking prices for other possible drivers that are as well-designed as the Lowthers and found that they cost, in many cases, even more.

A pair of Alnico drivers designed by the wonderful German designer Holger Adler of Voxative, for example, cost somewhere in the vicinity of $9k. Admittedly, in some iterations they use goat leather for suspension material, wood for a phase plug and their fit-and-finish is extraordinary. Finding a well-designed Alnico driver that is inexpensive may not be possible except on the used market. Used Alnico drivers that are older should be re-charged magnetically. Alnico magnets lose their charge over many years.

I also wanted to work once again with a low watt Single Ended Triode amplifier. The high sensitivity of the Lowther PM5, being close to 98 or 99 db turns out to be easily driven by the 2 watt Yamamoto A08S SET amplifier.

This combination is very relaxed while still being highly charged with dynamic presence; a very seductive and intoxicating musical experience.

The previous set-ups I worked with were not as 'relaxed' sounding. Although, as memory serves me they may have been more revealing, perhaps more transparent, perhaps even allowing for a deeper 'window' into the musical performance. And these set-up's were not expensive. So why do I like the present set-up so much given what I just wrote? I think it is, at least on many recordings, the more 'relaxed' and tonally ripe performance, it just hits my ear in a way that I find deeply satisfying.

I am no longer a young-in-years listener, and I am no longer looking for extreme 'stimulation' in the musical offerings I listen to, certainly in comparison to the way I did when I was younger. Younger listeners can take much more 'information' than I need. What I am looking for is 'depth' in the feelings that music can create. Especially the voice.

There are terrific drivers out there that can sound absolutely fantastic without costing nearly the amount of money I spent on the Lowthers. On the other hand, $2500 is an 'entry' price point for most commercial box speakers and the prices go up astronomically from there.

Once you find drivers that you like and an amplifier that matches their performance parameters, you can experiment until you get the sound you are looking for. That is the beauty of entering into the DIY exploration. And the OB baffles could just be a simple 3/4" plywood piece with some form of anchoring for stability, thus avoiding the problems and complex building strategies needed to implement a well-designed box speaker, assuming that such a thing actually exists, at least without spending the equivalent of a what a modest new automobile cost.

With Warm Friendship ~ Richard

[flavo]

Thanks so much for the reply Richard. I mistakenly took your "on the cheap" comment in your OP and your gushing review as you might have been disappointed with your past speakers in hind sight.
Thanks again!

[raov1]

Richard: I have truly enjoyed your posts for years. You should write professionally!

Please continue to share your experiences and enjoying Spotify at 320 KB. Most audiophiles scoff at any compression but blind AB testing reveals that this is purely psychological. I bought the lie too for many years that compressed audio was inferior. However, the latest compression options show that blind listeners cannot discern between >192 KB and uncompressed audio. To be safe, I listen to 256 KB, AAC format. From time to time, I compare to full WAV files on very high end equipment and no one in my family or circle of friends can hear the differences under blind conditions.

http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showforum=1

If all audiophile products needed FDA approval with blind testing for efficacy, 90% of them would never be sold. Better to focus on what IS actually relevant to the audiophile experience - source material, proper amp/speaker compatibility, speaker design, speaker/room interaction, etc.

It sounds like your priorities are properly aligned!

Good listening to you and Deb!

This is in response to Horizons

I do not dispute many of the things that you proposed

But would advice you to use common sense
A 30 mb song on a CD is approximately 3-6mb on a MP3.  .... So that much data was taken out ... Logic would predict it's  quality. That's what most people use. However ....
Harder it to prove is...
CD has a SNR of ~96db, most systems (I mean hi-end) do not have the resolution to achieve this. The low end MP3s are far far worse .. And will never heard beyond 70-80dB SNR. It may retain a sense of "air and space" fooling one in terms of resolution and quality, but actually providing lower quality sound, including dynamics (30 vs 3 ... No contest). This means that ...
1. You do loose resolution, and it's subtle.
2. One needs a system capable of resolving to this degree (output)
3. One has to have the level of sophistication to appreciate this level of quality (training/experience)
4. Room and electronics have to compromise to reach this level of quality.

So...

[RDavidson]

The reason most can't discern a difference in audible resolution is simply because most people don't listen attentively to begin with. So the difference between the music sounding mostly correct and 100% correct is subtle to most, and it can take a trained ear to hear the difference. Interestingly, the headphone crowd is largely driving the bus in this regard, which is a major reason we're seeing increased sales and services (like Tidal) of high resolution music. Even with rather cheap ear buds, one can hear the difference between lossy music files and lossless. Problem is, the majority (the untrained ears) still feels that lossy is good enough. It helps that lossy files are cheap and convenient. Things are slowly changing though. Storage space is cheap, compared to when mp3's were introduced. I think as video resolution increases audio will follow. My hope is that all music services eventually convert to lossless and only provide lossy where download / streaming speed or data usage is at a disadvantage. This way, everyone is listening to lossless whether they know it or not (most of the time).

[gilbodavid]

Hi all.

I have just spent 3 days reading about open baffle lowthers. This is after having just had a pm6c back from being repaired, which has meant that for the first time in over a year, i have been able to use my Lowther classic 400's. This is a small rear loaded horn with a DX2 firing forward, and and a PM6C firing backward. Thus it acts rather like a dipole or open baffle.

I have been frankly astonished at the detail, musicality, and organic "rightness" of the music, powered by my 15W WAD KEL84 valve amp. And really clean, organic and reasonably substantial bass!!!!!! So of course i had to google, find threads on open baffle Lowthers, and here I go again..

So nice to be reading posts by you again, Richard. I tried the Visiton B200 open baffle a few years ago and really enjoy everything you write, and share your love of hearing the magic, life and soul of performers through hifi gear. I too play guitar, and piano, having a lovely baby grand piano in my living room.

My hifi reference is living for years with stacked one thing audio'd quad 57's, fed by Leak tl12+ monoblocks, and replinthed Goldring Lenco GL75 turntables etc. It is the imaging of quads and their dipole nature that made me an early believer in OB. I have heard most hi end commercial stuff at shows etc and love the Avantgarde Trios. I also have 3 way OB commercial speakers in my lounge at present, made by SD Acoustics, and they sound far better than their reasonably cheap drivers suggest they should.

Hi Martin. I also have really appreciated reading the input by by you on many threads, your incredible experience, and obvious generosity in sharing knowledge. I am amazed by people like you, Scottmoose and Dave from planet 10, who between you seem to have designed, built and listened to huge amounts of speakers!!! I am intrigued by a comment I think I by you that the DX3 is a great compromise in terms of price/performnce for OB.

Also Poltrygeist and Retsel, I have followed your adventures and where you have got to with it are amazing, and will doubtless shorten my journey considerably!!

Richard, I have also been rather astonished by the audio quality coming out of the net and streaming. Radio at 320kb sounds more than good enough through my raspberry pi and IQAudio dac! As does 1440 WAV files streamed from my laptop. A brave new world indeed.

I am thus more and more thinking that the speaker and its relation to the room are the most important thing. Of course a beautiful Yamamoto valve amp cant hurt!!!!! Everything you have said here, Richard, resonates with my thoughts and listening experiences.

I am also intrigued by enabling, which seems to raise the perfomance dramtically.

I would love to hear, Richard, if you try Martin's recommendation of a filter. I am like you wanting to not have a filter, and at the same time, I know that Martin is in that little club of the most experienced and knowledgeable speaker designers that we have contact with. So I am intrigued. If and when I build my own, I shall definately try both ways.

I can also understand your not wanting to change right now. I am at present very happy with the incredible delicacy and organic beauty of the music coming out of my Lowthers, but I am just going to have to do OB  . Either with my DX2's and enabling, or with larger magnet Lowthers if I can afford them...  like most on this thread i love what Lowthers do.

 Cheers, David

[gilbodavid]

Hello RDavidson, I agree totally with what you are saying about learning to hear. The thing is, Richard has said he is a musician, and has trained himself in listening musically.. And I have been recently learning, as a poor musician myself, that musicians have an amazing ability to hear. A friend who is a guitarist hears things in live music I cannot, can hear spatially every note of all the performers, and the rhythmic, tonal quality and pitch of every note intimately. It is astonishing to hear him correct other musicians in our band, including the drummer, and how when he hears a piece of music he instantly learns all the parts of all the vocalists and instrumentalists. Quite amazing really.

I feel like a beginner in musical listening, and am learning a lot. even though for 30 years my professional occupation has been listening.. which is teaching me there are different types of listening.