CSS Criton 1TR kit - and building off that

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mcgsxr

CSS Criton 1TR kit - and building off that
« on: 10 Mar 2017, 01:35 pm »
I have been playing around with the idea of building speakers for quite some time.  There are so many options out there, including kits.

Creative Sound Solutions in BC, Canada had a kit (I believe they are sold out) called the Criton 1TR.  It uses an Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeter and a 7 inch woofer built by Wavecor.

I knocked out some mules to see how this would work out before putting real effort into a box that looks decent, since I have never heard this exact combo.  Years ago I had heard the RAW HT3 in my house, and that used the same tweeter and similar woofer (but in a 3 way with a mid).

In any case, here is the result of my "woodworking" skills.  I made a few errors along the way, but recovered well enough to finish. 

They are breaking in now.  If they end up sounding great, I will build nice boxes, and enclose the tweeter etc.  I know that there are likely many things to improve on vs the mules I built out of 3/4 mdf.  Rounding over the baffle would help.  Working with more traditional dimensions too (used scrap I had, and have only hand tools).

In any case, here we go:





Below is a shot of my initial testing.  Did not want to risk any of my good gear, so I hooked them up to an old cd/radio combo.  Figured if they made music and did not blow up I would swap them into the main setup.



After proving I did not cross wires and blow anything up - here they are in the main setup.  Good thing the lights are usually off!



« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2017, 03:09 pm by mcgsxr »

Bob2

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #1 on: 10 Mar 2017, 01:51 pm »
Those look pretty good! So how do they sound?

mcgsxr

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #2 on: 10 Mar 2017, 02:50 pm »
Just breaking them in.  Finished up assembly last night.  Lorde and Bob Marley on repeat for the day.  Will advise. 

JLM

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Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #3 on: 11 Mar 2017, 11:36 am »
Cool beans!

Mark, curious minds would like to know: so did you follow the CSS cabinet design; sealed or ported; (not clear) what drivers are these; what is the F3; what order of crossover, crossover frequency, and quality of crossover components used; what (if any) stuffing/lining used; what testing equipment/software do you have?

In my old age have finally settled on 2-way monitors as the best overall speaker design (adding a sub as needed).  Congrats.

mresseguie

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #4 on: 11 Mar 2017, 12:18 pm »
Darn it, Mark!

Don't you realize we're losing sleep awaiting your impressions post. Please try to be a little more considerate of our needs. Honestly!

Cool beans!

Mark, curious minds would like to know: so did you follow the CSS cabinet design; sealed or ported; (not clear) what drivers are these; what is the F3; what order of crossover, crossover frequency, and quality of crossover components used; what (if any) stuffing/lining used; what testing equipment/software do you have?

In my old age have finally settled on 2-way monitors as the best overall speaker design (adding a sub as needed).  Congrats.

Ditto.

Jeff,

Luckily, I was reclining when I read your post. You've been a single driver speaker advocate since I joined AC. Must I read back through your posts to find your discovery, or will you direct me to it? [Folks, this is BIG!]

Michael

JLM

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Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #5 on: 11 Mar 2017, 02:02 pm »
Michael,

I've always said that there is no perfect speaker.  But for near-field listening lovers of small ensembles single driver designs are very hard to beat.  I've also been a fan of transmission line design since the 70's (long before I developed a love for single drivers).  Two-way monitors if designed properly can provide much of the point source (while avoiding phasing issues between the drivers) advantages of a single driver with improved dispersion and dynamics.  And as per the writings of Earl Geddes, Floyd Toole, and others I've come to accept that in-room bass is best produced remote from the main speakers, so the subwoofer route is preferred to full range speakers. 

If you look through the Critic's Circle you'll find that at Duke LeJeune's suggestion I added ambience (Late Ceiling Splash) tweeters to my babies (Brines Acoustics M18-F200).  No crossover, just a cap to protect the tweeters (run parallel to the M18-F200).  It added high frequency response and enlarged the soundstage without effecting the overall single driver presentation.  Since the Fostex F200A driver is no longer available, I'm not sure a viable "full range" driver exists, so the fuzz has come off the peach, and the whole single driver premise is pretty much dead because IMO high fidelity requires covering the entire musical spectrum (sans giant pipe organs).  Note while the F200A is rated 30-20,000 Hz, without a whizzer - in actuality a mechanical crossover - it obviously beams higher frequencies (again no perfect speaker).

Here's the link to my review:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137934.msg1468316#msg1468316

I'm also a believer in needing a 6 inch driver to provide mid-bass body, so small whizzer-less single drivers are less than ideal.

If you stop by you can listen to the EnABL'd M18-F200's with and without the tweeters.

mcgsxr

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #6 on: 11 Mar 2017, 02:32 pm »
Cool beans!

Mark, curious minds would like to know: so did you follow the CSS cabinet design; sealed or ported; (not clear) what drivers are these; what is the F3; what order of crossover, crossover frequency, and quality of crossover components used; what (if any) stuffing/lining used; what testing equipment/software do you have?

In my old age have finally settled on 2-way monitors as the best overall speaker design (adding a sub as needed).  Congrats.

Jeff I will do my best.

Cabinet - CSS designed this kit to fit the 0.38 Parts Express cabinets.  I built my own rather than buying those, as I was unclear how I wanted to implement these drivers.   My cabinets are radically different dimensions, but net out at the same internal volume.

Sealed or ported - Sealed.  I may experiment with a larger ported enclosure based on my past exposure to the RAW HT3 where a very similar woofer was used in a ~1ft box tuned to 28hz.

F3 - 55Hz is the -3dB point of the sealed box.

Tweeter - a CSS modified (unclear how) Aurum Cantus G2si

Woofer - CSS LDW7 - appears to be a modified Wavecor WF182BD04-1 - a 7 inch midwoofer

Xover - 2.5Khz 18db/octave.  Erse/Solen caps used.  Solen inductors. 

Stuffing - I bought 16oz of polyfill.  I would say I have about 6oz left so I figure roughly 5-6oz in each sealed cab.

Sensitivity - low.  Specs suggest 84.5dB.  My twisting of the volume compared to my Focal Electra 906's would lead me to believe it.  The Focals are 91dB sensitivity.  No matter, my Audio Refinement amp has enough juice to power them no problem at the volumes I listen at (low 80's).  I have tried a lot of different combinations of speaker sensitivity and amp power.  In the end I have no issue with low efficiency/sensitivity speakers.  I know that many love higher efficiency, and I enjoyed them when I used them too.

Testing equipment - ears and iPhone with SPL meter.  So totally lacking.  But that is why I bought a proven kit vs attempting to design my own. 

I let them run yesterday, and spent the evening listening.  I will continue to let them break in.

I will say that I am thinking through the next potential box implementation.  They sound good.  This kind of bass would satisfy many (tight sealed).  I may need a little more, so I will continue to explore ported enclosure possibilities.  I would intend to replicate the Xover the same way.

Good fun.
« Last Edit: 13 Mar 2017, 10:34 pm by mcgsxr »

mcgsxr

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit testing
« Reply #7 on: 12 Mar 2017, 02:03 pm »
Good run with them yesterday.  Coherence improving, and bass improving. 

I will let them continue to break in.

Thinking I should not have put "testing" in the title.  It means different things.  I meant these are my test boxes, not that I will actually test their response etc.

srb

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit: test boxes built
« Reply #8 on: 12 Mar 2017, 02:08 pm »
You can modify the original Subject title to something like ...

CSS Criton 1TR Kit: Test Enclosures
« Last Edit: 12 Mar 2017, 04:22 pm by srb »

mcgsxr

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit - test boxes built
« Reply #9 on: 12 Mar 2017, 08:47 pm »
Title updated.

Sad that after over 12 years here I was not clear that you COULD edit a title.  Some other places I frequent you can edit the post but not the title.

Thanks!

srb

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit - test boxes built
« Reply #10 on: 12 Mar 2017, 08:58 pm »
You can also edit the Message icon from the standard notepaper icon to 11 other icons, although I rarely do that.  This post was modified with the Thumbs Up icon!

mcgsxr

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit - test boxes built
« Reply #11 on: 16 Mar 2017, 03:47 pm »
Break in continues, and I am enjoying what these can do.

I am in the process of finalizing a design for a ported version.  I know how the RAW HT3 bass sounded, and I know this woofer was a drop in for those designs, so I am looking to recreate a similar alignment for this 2 way and see how that sounds.

Good fun so far, but the Focals are not for sale yet.

mcgsxr

Re: CSS Criton 1TR kit - test boxes built
« Reply #12 on: 27 Mar 2017, 03:08 pm »
Having given these a full run in, I can say that the tweeter is lovely.  The bass needs to be ported for me to love it.  The mids though are where I miss my Focal's.  Or my old OB Visaton b200's.

So, having come this far, I figured that digging deeper into the rabbit hole for sure is the right answer...

Picked up a set of 5 inch full rangers.  Bought a 6 channel amp.  Will buy either a Minidsp or pro Xover to see what I can brew up.

Thinking 2 way with an Xover of 500Hz from 7 inch woofer (in a ported enclosure) to 5 inch full ranger (in a sealed enclosure).

Will have to see how the full ranger acts (I know it will beam and will require significant toe in as did my Visatons) and see if the ribbon tweet is required. 

The fun continues.