Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs

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Big Red Machine

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #20 on: 11 Feb 2017, 06:29 pm »
Poster has a perfect wave unit.

RDavidson

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #21 on: 11 Feb 2017, 06:44 pm »
I understand, but the conversation veered into Direct Stream territory as the Perfect Wave can be upgraded to the Direct Steam.....so we were kind of weighing that option. Sorry, I went into too much detail on that front, and I didn't realize the upgrade was $3k. With DS's on the used market for roughly $3500, then upgrading the PW to a DS would not be a better option than just selling the PW.....even at a very low price unfortunately.

Early B.

Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #22 on: 11 Feb 2017, 08:12 pm »
PS Audio overpriced? The price is what the market will support, dude. PSA is a good, American, company that makes quality products. That's worth something to some people these days, especially the employees in Colorado.

I'll bet 99% of Americans aren't willing to pay MSRP for American made goods out of some deep concern for the American worker. Keep in mind that PS Audio's gear may be "partially assembled" in America, but the majority of the parts are probably made in China. PS Audio's greatly inflated MSRP is likely due extensively to being "made in America."  Their high marketing costs don't help, either.

FWIW -- I own PS Audio's PerfectWave Transport and paid 1/4 of MSRP on the used market several years ago for a modded unit. 

SFDude

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #23 on: 11 Feb 2017, 08:27 pm »
I have had my PWD MkII w/Bridge I listed for a while, with no bites. In the end, it still is a really good DAC that doesn't do DSD. Still awesome for Redbook CDs (which I do not have) and I will likely end up keeping in the end. For anything to sound as good as it does today, you would have to spend about 2-3x more (it is superior to the NuPrime DAC-10 I currently use).

PS Audio will need to firesale off any DSD conversion kits once their new DAC technology comes out. Possibly wait for that? ;) *wishful thinking*

Phil A

Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #24 on: 11 Feb 2017, 08:41 pm »
I'll bet 99% of Americans aren't willing to pay MSRP for American made goods out of some deep concern for the American worker. Keep in mind that PS Audio's gear may be "partially assembled" in America, but the majority of the parts are probably made in China. PS Audio's greatly inflated MSRP is likely due extensively to being "made in America."  Their high marketing costs don't help, either.

FWIW -- I own PS Audio's PerfectWave Transport and paid 1/4 of MSRP on the used market several years ago for a modded unit.

I wouldn't confine that to a single brand.  It's part of the reason for articles like - http://www.stereophile.com/content/rip-high-end-audio#jzwZjGr51dcdQQBf.97

I tried (to no avail) to get a demo of a hi-rez file player from the only local dealer (probably easily within a 50 mile radius and probably more - they are only open 3 days/week and the store isn't big - I might have more equipment and there certainly isn't tons of stuff) they have I'd be interested in) four times (even dragged my own stuff in there).

So, in my opinion, many people interested into high end are just not interested in paying retain on the majority of things.  It gets rough when one has a B&M store where there are expenses.

RDavidson

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #25 on: 12 Feb 2017, 03:30 am »
I don't know, Early B. One man's "over inflated price" is another man's bargain. Sure, some manufacturers offer better value, ie bang for the buck, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those great bang for the buck brands are largely 1. Lesser known. 2. Are almost entirely web direct, with virtually no dealer network. As Phil said, PSA isn't the only US company building stuff in the US nor do they have a unique business model. So are all those other brands offerings also overinflated (regarding price)? Wherever goods are sold the consumer is always paying for at least part of doing business. In some instances more. Others less. But we're talking about high-end audio. With not a lot of consumers we're all paying more for the price of business, regardless of business model. I don't understand singling out PSA here nor understand how that commentary is useful to jarcher. And yes, we all know that a lot of parts come from overseas. But just parts alone don't make the product. We all know that too.

jarcher

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #26 on: 12 Feb 2017, 03:43 am »
So - not to end the interesting broader discussion here  - but the PS PSD MKII w BII sold today for just $1150. Jeez.

I hate to say it but seems to me if people are actually buying new DSDs @ $4k new vs $6k retail or getting excessively high trade ins (basically anything over half of new retail), well then the "MSRP" doesn't really mean anything and the "true" price is actually much lower. That's one way to do sales and marketing, but I think it devalues the product and brand.

But hey - the market & deal obsessed audiophiles brought this on themselves. When everyday we're bombarded by these "get +50% off, buy one get one free, etc etc" for general consumer goods
the US consumer has been trained to expect and demand that everything is going to be available for heavy discount at any moment or at the asking.  I didn't think the US was so much about discount and deal making at least at the retail level until one time last year I actually overheard someone at the sub shop counter ask for a neighbor discount - on a $6 sub!!!!

Anyway - we reap what we sow and now we have phoney baloney pricing practices even in "high end" audio. And the effect is so corrosive and such a vicious circle that more and more companies will probably be tempted to compete towards a race to the bottom.

We actually try to stay away from products and companies with excessive profit margins or discounting practices. It's just bad news all around for everyone involved including the customer who ends up feeling cheated however much they might otherwise like the product.

Rant over & out!

S Clark

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #27 on: 12 Feb 2017, 04:12 am »
There have always been discounters. Before the internet, discounters ran ads in trade magazines.  I remember buying my Teac RTR and Sherwood receiver from an outfit in NY (Somebody's HiFi and Camera?) back in the mid 70's because they were significantly cheaper than the dealers in Dallas.  People will always look to stretch a dollar- unless price simply doesn't count.  When $1k spends like pocket change, paying list is an option.

Early B.

Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #28 on: 12 Feb 2017, 01:17 pm »
If you're gonna charge high prices, at least be able to back it up with the level of quality you'd find for comparably priced products at or near MSRP.

A high end company should strive for high resale value. Think about if PS Audio was selling cars with an MSRP of $20,000. No one would be willing to pay sticker price, so the cars would need to be deeply "discounted" to $10,000 to get them to sell, and used prices for nearly new ones would be $5,000. The  quality of the cars is not going to be comparable to other $20,000 cars, but they'll be built at the much lower $10,000 level or less.   

JLM

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Re: Riddle me this : PS Audio DACs
« Reply #29 on: 12 Feb 2017, 01:45 pm »
I recall almost 40 years ago taking a friend to my favorite shop to shop for a system.  After listening he started bartering very hard with them (it was in his culture to do so) and it embarrassed me.  Seems to me the U.S. was one of the last places to expect paying MSRP for big ticket items. 

But beyond that with the rapid advancements in digital technology it's going to be impossible to maintain value with time.  My approach before I buy is to try to put a price on how much enjoyment you derive from the piece per month, and beyond a general discount for new with warrantee versus used plus cost of selling, keep a running overall value in mind.  If the piece doesn't make financial sense up front, I move on.  Which is why I don't often upgrade and avoid high priced DAC's.