Recommend full range driver for OB?

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BrassEar

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Recommend full range driver for OB?
« on: 10 Jan 2017, 01:20 am »
Thinking about an new OB design with a full range driver + helper woofer. I already have a spare pair of Alpha 15s and plenty of birch ply. I would like to KISS and just roll off the Alpha with a coil and roll in the full range with a big cap (or just run it full range depending on the driver). The challenge is picking the right driver from ~250 Hz and up. My quick research found the following drivers that are in my price range.

Tagband 1808, 1772
Mark Audio Alpair 12 or 10
Dayton 220
Omega 7F? Do they even sell these drivers direct?
Other drivers <$500/pr?

I have used the Fostex 126 (Hornshoppe Horns) and I prefer a larger driver for the added warmth. My target size is an 6.5-8-inch suitable for OB. I have another system with Heil AMTs when I want to hear incredible highs. However, my hearing is shot past about 8 kHz but that is another story.

TIA for your thoughts.

mcgsxr

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jan 2017, 01:26 am »
The Mark Audio drivers have a great reputation.

Visaton b200 is one I used with a helper woofer on OB for a long time. 

Wind Chaser

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jan 2017, 02:06 am »
Check this out... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhQidURwrlE

At 5:02 he says, these kick the shit out his Magnepan MG12QRs.

Here's a link to the drivers... http://www.wildburroaudio.com/

JLM

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #3 on: 10 Jan 2017, 04:00 am »
Many small extended range drivers lack mid-bass body and/or have a midrange emphasis (Mark Audio/Fostex). 

Haven't heard the B200, but it's too big to have good high frequency dispersion (important for projecting a large soundstage).

Omega 7F drivers are no longer available.

Have heard good things about the Tangband.

I use Fostex F200A drivers (not your typical Fostex sound) but it is no longer available.  However it's little brother, the F120A should be perfect with a woofer (5 inch, F3 = 65 Hz, AlNiCo magnet, 89 dB/w/m, 8 ohms, Qts = 0.44, $290 each, check out on Madisound.com).  Can be EnABL'd (I had Bud Purvine do mine, look into DIYaudio.com).
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2017, 10:45 am by JLM »

JCS

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #4 on: 10 Jan 2017, 05:37 pm »
I have a pair of F120A which I really enjoy.  Running full range in Metronome style cabinets.

IME, they love tube amps.  With SS, the top end is lost.  Don't know why, but the only SS amp I have tried that comes anywhere close to working w/ the F120A is Pass designed Amp Camp Amp class A monoblocks. 

Cheers, Jim

JLM

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #5 on: 11 Jan 2017, 10:48 am »
I've run my F200A's with tube and solid state.  Had severe tube bass bloom with one, the other tube amp only sounded marginally better than either pair of Channel Island Audio monoblocks with the right tubes.

hurdy_gurdyman

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #6 on: 6 Feb 2017, 07:10 pm »
You might even consider vintage drivers before the mid 1970's. Many 8-12 inch fullrange drivers were available then from brands like Jensen, JBL, Altec and Electro-Voice (EV), to name a few. I have use EV SP12C, LS12, and LS8 drivers. They don't quite have as extended range as some made today, but they tend to be very efficient easy to drive speakers (folks who have measured EV LS12's place the sensitivity at around 95-97 dB). With my LS12's, I use a super tweeter crossed in around 8-10 kHz, which solves the high treble beaming issues. As for bass, it gives good OB bass down to the 60-80 Hz range, tromping little 8 inch drivers in their bass weight, and allowing a lower crossover on a bass driver like the Alpha. The old EV's from the 50's-70's bring around $40-$60 on ePay. Cheap enough to play with, and popular enough to get your money back by reselling them if they are not your cup of tea (or coffee).  BTW, it's hard to beat voice reproduction on the 12 inchers. Male voice has a sense of weight that few small drivers on OB can do. They just don't have the heft there without some kind of cabinet to help them.

Dave :green:

BrassEar

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #7 on: 6 Feb 2017, 10:05 pm »
Thanks for all of the replies.

It was a long journey but I ended up trying a pair of the Audio Nirvana Super Cast 10s. To say I am floored with these drivers is an understatement. These are the best drivers I have ever heard. Now it is time to play with crossover settings and baffle designs...

I am tempted to try two full range drivers on the panel but I am wary of lobing issues (although I have heard many line arrays that sound very coherent).

These AN drivers clearly get an unfair bad rap IMHO.

Poultrygeist

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Feb 2017, 11:12 am »
If you ever decide to go larger the 12 inch Zenith 49CZ series Alnico's are jaw dropping. I've enjoyed the 1808, BoFu, Betsy, 12LTA, and Lowther DX3 in OB's but the old Zeniths are something special. Harvested my Zeniths from a 1950's console which I bought for the tube amp and the 49's sat unused in my garage until I read the "Glow In The Dark" blog. His praise of the Zeniths is spot on.

http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/zenith-49cz852.html

jparkhur

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Feb 2017, 02:55 pm »
Has anyone here done a real xo for the 1808 tang band?   I know it has some rise at the end and wondered if anyone put some caps and coils on it to smooth it out.   I am aware this goes against some peoples listening preferences and thinking... but if you could share?

JP

WC

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Feb 2017, 03:04 pm »
Has anyone here done a real xo for the 1808 tang band?   I know it has some rise at the end and wondered if anyone put some caps and coils on it to smooth it out.   I am aware this goes against some peoples listening preferences and thinking... but if you could share?

JP

Looks like the Pure audio project tang bands are crossed over to the woofers at 450 Hz.

jparkhur

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Feb 2017, 03:11 pm »
I have that xo from him, its really no fix at the top end of the TB.. just xo to woofer..

JP


BrassEar

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #12 on: 21 Mar 2017, 12:06 am »
If you ever decide to go larger the 12 inch Zenith 49CZ series Alnico's are jaw dropping. I've enjoyed the 1808, BoFu, Betsy, 12LTA, and Lowther DX3 in OB's but the old Zeniths are something special. Harvested my Zeniths from a 1950's console which I bought for the tube amp and the 49's sat unused in my garage until I read the "Glow In The Dark" blog. His praise of the Zeniths is spot on.

http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/zenith-49cz852.html

FYI, I have enjoyed your OB posts for quite some time Poultrygeist. I have the AN10s but I have also been playing with a handful of vintage 12-inch drivers from Zenith and Cleveland. These are pretty amazing for the price, they just need a little tweeter help. I think if we (and the GLOW blog) keep raving about these, the prices will skyrocket! I have a set of mule baffles (18 inches wide by 48 inches tall) and I can swap out various 12 inchers to see what I like. What has been most surprising is playing a pair of Zenith 12s in parallel with the AN10s in a psuedo line source array. The sound is stunning. I think it is the large wave launch and combined efficiency. It's all good fun and makes me want to try a 4-12 vintage line array.

PG - you really need to listen to some AN drivers, I think you will be surprised.

BrassEar

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #13 on: 21 Mar 2017, 12:12 am »
You might even consider vintage drivers before the mid 1970's. Many 8-12 inch fullrange drivers were available then from brands like Jensen, JBL, Altec and Electro-Voice (EV), to name a few. I have use EV SP12C, LS12, and LS8 drivers. They don't quite have as extended range as some made today, but they tend to be very efficient easy to drive speakers (folks who have measured EV LS12's place the sensitivity at around 95-97 dB). With my LS12's, I use a super tweeter crossed in around 8-10 kHz, which solves the high treble beaming issues. As for bass, it gives good OB bass down to the 60-80 Hz range, tromping little 8 inch drivers in their bass weight, and allowing a lower crossover on a bass driver like the Alpha. The old EV's from the 50's-70's bring around $40-$60 on ePay. Cheap enough to play with, and popular enough to get your money back by reselling them if they are not your cup of tea (or coffee).  BTW, it's hard to beat voice reproduction on the 12 inchers. Male voice has a sense of weight that few small drivers on OB can do. They just don't have the heft there without some kind of cabinet to help them.

Dave :green:

Thanks Dave, I took your advice and have started down this path. It is truly amazing how good these 50 year old paper woofers with alnico magnets sound today. There is a relaxed purity of tone that most newer drivers seem to lack.

hurdy_gurdyman

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #14 on: 21 Mar 2017, 12:25 am »
Thanks Dave, I took your advice and have started down this path. It is truly amazing how good these 50 year old paper woofers with alnico magnets sound today. There is a relaxed purity of tone that most newer drivers seem to lack.
You are welcome. I was raised back in the 60's/early 70's listening to console stereos with wide-range mostly open-backed speakers. Longed for that agin after many years of never-quite happy with box speakers. Back in 2002 I took some speakers out of an old console someone threw away and mounted them on a piece of plywood and loved the sound! I've been hooked on OB ever since, and both single driver with a bit of help on top and/or bottom as well as coaxial speakers. Currently have a pair of tall narrow baffle with a Hawthorne Audio 15" Augie on the bottom, a Wild Burro Betsy above that, and EV LS12 above that. I use the Betsy for music and the LS12 for movies. I love both both speakers and couldn't choose between them, so keep them both in the same baffle. Maybe this summer I'll make smaller baffles and just keep the Betsy/Augie combo and store the LS12's until a future itch causes me to dig them out again.

BTW, the Betsy's have a lot of the relaxed vintage sound but with a wider range. I'm impressed with them. Not at all harsh, shouty or peaky
Somewhere around here I have a vintage pair of Jensen 10" wide rangers that sound sweet on OB. Might have to hunt them up sometime...

Dave :green:

Poultrygeist

Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #15 on: 21 Mar 2017, 11:07 am »
12" Zenith alnico drivers ( circa 1958 ) over H-frame Alphas. These have the sweetest tone of any wide bander I've heard.



triumph

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Re: Recommend full range driver for OB?
« Reply #16 on: Today at 12:06 pm »
I am using the TB W8-1772 in OB.

They sound great, but they do need help.  Very clear and detailed.

For most drivers, bigger cone means beaming at higher frequencies, giving a small sweet spot.  The 1772 are the least beaming 8" drivers I've heard so far.

Going active is the easiest solution for them. 
But I'm working on integration with 15" drivers in OB as well and a passive network.  It looks ok in simulation, but I will need to test it in real life before I can vouch for it.