[Posy]

miklorsmith:

As a true and proper Beltist, I have extensive experience with the pwb stuff. If you want to know how it is alleged to work, you can ask me. But... it doesn't really matter in the end, because people will always believe whatever they are inclined to believe, and that generally means following their prejudices. So even if I go to lengths to explain it to you, you may not believe a word of it. For decades, there have been many products that audiophiles have tried but established science can't find an explanation for, so it gets written off as an illusion, when it isn't.

The cream electret is indeed rubbed on and then the excess is lightly cleaned off (it only takes a micron thickness to work). The silver rainbow foil is indeed adhesive. It is cut in strips 15mm x 2-3mm wide. What and where you place it influences how it will affect sound. Yes, I have tried different foils and the different foils do indeed produce different sonic effects. The silver rainbow foil is the least good of all the foils, but the cheapest, hence the most popular.

I have just read messages where people are trying to guess how this stuff might work, with the usual ideas about how the CD laser mechanism might interact with the foils or how cream electret interacts with the optical properties of a CD... Please don't do that! It clouds everything up, and makes a very little understood phenomenon even more poorly understood. -None- of the PWB products have any effect whatsoever on the audio signal or  acoustic waves, which includes the cd's laser mechanism. They are nothing like the products of anyone else (with the exception of one of Machina Dynamica's), including Mapleshade's, despite whether they appear similar to you. A foil or the cream could have as much or more of an effect on your hot water tank than it does on your CD. (In fact, I would prefer to apply it to those kind of things than CDs). It helps to know where best to apply them, but for beginners, the CD or LP speed logo is a fine place to start.

The spiral tubing is great, I use it at the end of my headphones and USB cables (for my mp4 player). I understand why you say the cable rings add tizziness... don't write them off! Its because you dont have them in the right location. I don't know what cable rings you have or where you have tried them, but i suggest this: attach them to an alligator clip, and listen along the length of a cable, say your interconnect. That will better tell you where to apply them for correct sound. Or simply start by applying them to the input end of the IC, just where the wire meets the connector.



martinr:

>> its quantum physics B.S. as far as Im concerned. Weird stuff but worth a try if you're a tweaker.<<

It's not quantum physics BS, but if you think it is, I'd like to hear specifically why. If you have a better explanation of how the phenomenon works, that doesn't include the usual dismissive placebo theory, I'd like to hear that too.


gooberdude:

I've read some of the threads on AA that you were referring to. So I'm wondering if you're being sarcastic when you say about May's threads on AA, that it says a whole lot about PWB's conviction in their products?

I'm not so sure about the locations you tried for the foil sample you received. I've tried similar locations on a Rega P3, and didn't get good results (other locations on the deck proved to be better however). You might want to stick to the traditional CD logo for your foils. The foils -do- make a noticable difference, not just by my own experience, but I have blind tested them on total noobs. Careful listening and an open mind is usually all it takes for people to recognize their sonic signature. It may not be obvious what changes have taken place, because like all Belt products, they change characteristics that we are not used to having changed, since conventional audio operates on different components of the sound. The Belt stuff tends to make things simply sound more "natural" and less "electronic". Now how do you define "natural" to someone who has yet to recognize that sound?

Try this: Listen very carefully to a good recording, then quickly remove your foils, place them on the CD or DVD logos, many at a time, then listen again for a few minutes. Then quickly remove the foils, leave them adhesive side up on a sheet of paper, move the paper to another room, listen again. If you can't hear differences the first, try a couple more times. Many of these tests fail not because of the product or even the listener's ability, but the test methodology. And you're right, because even in a technical sense, it really does produce positive energy!   

>>What gets me the most about P.W.B. are the prices.<<

Yeah, most people have that reaction looking at the price list, because they don't understand the products at all. Once you get beyond the "does it work?" stage, you look at that price list differently, and realize that the costlier products are far more effective, and simply priced according to the relative value, not their cost of manufacture. It all works out to the same in the end. It might cost you $1k to upgrade your cd player, and if $1k of an alternative means provided better sound than the cd upgrade, it might make more sense for some to take the alernative path. But most people find the foils and cream more cost effective than anything else you can get in this business.

The $850 clip you mentioned, is a good example, for it is a product that affects -everything-. Everything that the device treats improves the overall sound, and the devices you can treat is almost limited to everything you have in your house... hence to "those in the know", the sound can improve in the end -far more- than anything $850 will get you with conventional upgrades. And if you think you can get any clip (or magnet) that looks the same and it will do the same thing, its because you dont know what they can do. Trust me, been there done that! The positive energy of such products comes not in the cost, but in the sonic benefits they provide. I have proven to many that they don't have to cost anything to provide at least some hint of the benefits the products provide.

The ideas, whatever you may think of them, just work. The old guy that runs your recording studios might be even more amazed if Belt's products were installed all over the place, and he did recording tests after the installations, to find that they improved the quality of the recordings! But there isn't a "physical" connection to understand, like a "smoother cd surface", so it would be harder to appreciate in that sense. But try smearing Mapleshade's product all over the place and see how much the recordings are affected!

[navi]

-Stillpoints ERS on the capcitors and digital circuits- wrapped around transformers- great tewak for $30
Lowers BG noise and opens up sound stage- Sounds like Voodoo but really works

-Xindak Silver fuses - Increases dynamics about $15 bucks

Ivan

[gooberdude]

Ya know, a few weekends ago I lined the inside of my power strip with ERS.  I think that's a great place for that EMI paper.   I bought a $20 sheet of it a few years ago to use in my computer...it never did a thing & every other audio use i tried somehow killed the sonics.   it was like a wet blanket.

well i'm not 100% since i've been flipping between amps, but i think there's a lot less noise...more of that eerie 'you are there' stuff.

Balanced power technologies offers this a $50 upgrade that i chose not to do, but its probably worth it.  they use more ERS cloth and put it everywhere.   

ERS might be cool around the wall outlet too...


GB

[Tweaker]

I'm glad I ran across this thread as I had recently purchased a sheet of Stillpoints ERS cloth and wasn't quite sure about the best way to use it. So this afternoon I opened up the Pacific Valve modified Lite Audio nos dac I recently purchased (great dac!), and place a small square on each of the four tall caps. Amazing! Music was now flowing out of a noticably blacker/quieter background, with greater depth to the soundstage. Instruments seem tonally more real sounding now, as well. Taking them off made me almost wince with the grain and hash that I wasn't aware of before. I know little  about electronics but there are two sets of identical capacitors on two different sides of the board and I guessed that the two on the left might be for the digital circuit so I left the cloth on those and took the other two off. The sound become a bit richer, but no other change that I could tell. Put them back on and the sound took on a bit of flatness. Repeated several time, same results. After trying some other locations including the inside top cover I concluded the best sound was with just the two capacitors covered.
I didn't have such good results on an upsampler I have. Hard to get at the innards as the only acccess is from a front cover, but no matter where I managed to put some the sound became very flat. Tried a piece on the ps for my Squeezebox. No difference that I could tell. Maybe only works (if it's going to at all), applied inside the  case? I have a pair of ICEpower based amps enroute. Will be interesting to try some with them.
 

[navi]

tweaker,

Try putting ERS on the actual DAC and wrapping the power cables in the DAC as well- I find that just putting a sheet of ERS in te equipment doesn't really work as well as sticking them directly on the Caps.
It would be interesting to hear what it does to your ICE amps- Let us know how it goes.

Ivan

[shep]

I got a sheet a while back and have been waiting for people to come forth and say where it works best. I sort of used it everywhere in my T amp and a lot inside my cdp but I haven't a clue what is best and would surely appreciate pics of both applications if someone nails this down.

[Tweaker]

I just applied a strip over the dacs in my Lite Audio Dac Ah (NOS with 8 dacs lined up in a row) and the results were pretty bad. Sound became fairly flat. So far, the only place I've found where the ERS helps out, rather than buggers up, the sound is on two of the four tall capacitors. Will try it out next on the DEQ2496, see if it does anything helpful there. I'm of the opinion that this is not a "some is good, more is better" tweak.

[TheChairGuy]

I found the ERS to work not at all helpfully in either my CDP or (former) DAC....it suffocated (kind of overdamped sound) the treble, in particular.

It works on power transformers, electrical outlets, conditioners, on IC's (just a little will do), Power Cords....but was a bad tweek inside the 3 digital/switching power supply amps I've owned. 

The following helpful advice from TweekGeek.com (Mike Garner's) site....who sells the stuff:

Listed below are just a few ways in which ERS paper has been used to control and absorb EMI/RFI.

    * In general, lining the inside of a component's top cover is a good place to start. If you don't want to open up your piece of equipment, then just lay the sheet on top.
    * CD/DVD players - attached to the underside of the top, and attached to the bottom. This covers the power supply, and the digital ICs. Digital is probably the most notorious EMI/RFI polluter in a system.
    * Preamp/ processors - attached in a similar manner as the CD/DVD player.
    * Home theater processors - Treat similarly to the DVD/CD player.
    * Electrical outlets - Cut in the same shape as the wall plate and place over the outside of the wall plate. The ERS is placed on the outside of the wall plate because it IS conductive.
    * Power conditioners - wrapped around power cords, and covering the top, bottom and sides of a power conditioner. A very effective tweak.
    * Power cords - Wrapping the cord with ERS tape. We have had excellent results doing this. 1" tape works well. Multiple layers work well too.
    * Power transformers - Keeps stray rfi and magnetic fields from interfering with the audio signal.
    * Crossovers - Covering the top bottom and sides, as well as wrapping the internal wires. This method needs to be "tuned" to each individual system. You will know when you've added too much ers, when the highs start rolling off, or midrange detail starts disappearing. Be prepared to spend some time on this.
    * Interconnects - Wrapping the interconnect with ERS tape. This too will require some fine tuning. I use a 1/4" strip wrapped around the very end of the RCA connector's outer shell. You may also try spacing the ERS away from the cable via foam pipe insulation.
    * Loudspeaker cables - Fine tuning required here as well. Start at the end that connects to the loudspeaker. You may also try spacing the ERS away from the cable via foam pipe insulation.
    * Video Cables - Component, composite, coaxial, and S-vhs cables all benefit. Wrapping the entire cable provides the most benefit in this case

How much do I need?

    Hitting the level of diminishing returns with ERS is difficult, and system dependant. Below are some minimum guidleines for using ERS.

    * Great results have been achieved by using the ERS tape to wrap power cords and interconnects. If you are odering 1" tape, generally you will need TWICE the length of whatever cord, interconnect, etc. you are trying to wrap. An alternative to wrapping is to lay the ERS length wise down the cord. This may take two, overlapping runs to completely cover the cable, but it is a time saver. ALWAYS do a "test wrap" before removing the adhesive backing!
    * For lining the top cover of a component, a minimum of two sheets are generally needed.
    * For an amplifier, be sure to cover the area above and below the power transformer at the minimum. It takes about 1 sheet to do so.

[1000a]

thanks for the tip if I put 2 pieces anywhere near the outside my DAC and it became flat city on MS.

[1000a]

Where in this amp would you guys suggest I try ERS paper
and damping material (what kind) and where should I try it?

I have the non stick type ERS and I am concerned about conductivity of the paper in a metal chassis.  Is it not going to be dangerous placed under the transformers with the metal chassis so close? 

I do not play this amp with the top on it anymore.




thanks in advance

[1000a]

this is a home brew killer ICs 20.00

http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize021998.htm

[Tweaker]

I found the ERS to work not at all helpfully in either my CDP or (former) DAC....it suffocated (kind of overdamped sound) the treble, in particular.

It works on power transformers, electrical outlets, conditioners, on IC's (just a little will do), Power Cords....but was a bad tweek inside the 3 digital/switching power supply amps I've owned. 

I'm thinking that another good area of applicaton would be to apply over unused inputs of a preamp, or any other gear that has unused inputs. Have not tried yet, (my preamp is in an equipment rack and it's not easy to get at the back), but will report back when I have. Hopefully someone else will try this who has a little easier access to the back of their preamp. 
 

[gooberdude]

The only time prior to recently adding ERS to the inside of my power strip that i really played with it was inside of my computer.

I wanted to use it for LP to harddrive transfers but wanted better performance.  After replacing the DVD drive with a better one & removing one of the 2 drives a terrible noise entered the scene.

I chased it around with ERS paper, a weird process, and then finally stuck a small piece directly over the 2nd unused data cable input that conected my DVD drives to the motherboard - problem solved!   all i needed the whole time was a cable with only 1 input...   so i knew it worked at blocking EMI/RFI, but figuring out what exactly it did (or how to use it) was daunting.   i do not like the fact that its conductive either...

be careful with it around any AC current..

[1000a]

I posted this on the TVC passive thread, below is  tweek for tube amps. 

on my 2 input tubes - Blackbery tube dampers (9pin size)  15. each
on my 2 driver tubes - Peek tube dampers (9pin size)  24.50 each     
[if Blackbery used on driver tubes - 9.50 x2] or 60.00 total 

below is my post from the TVC thread:
Speaking of detail I just swapped out my Teflon Halos 10. ea. on my Jolida amp's input tubes for his newest damper the Blackberry 15. each, jaw drop IMS- detail - was shocking I thought I was mostly there with all the improvements I have gained in recent months- not-a-no-way-not a-chance!  I love it more more more and no etched sound!

this newest round of detail delivered what matters - more air, more separation, a better feeling of 3d. which for me when it isn't analytical = more real. more soul.   So i pulled 2 Teflons off the input tubes changed to 2 Blackberry, pulled 2 Teflons off driver tubes changed to Peek (not as detailed, more body, less glare). 

So I did not even do Blackberries on the drivers and I am floored.  Its fantastic there is always more to be had and a blessing when its inexpensive, cause last weeks improvement is already assimilated - absorbed into my newest perceptions and then I start looking studying digging for more............Hmm is that why we spend all this time on this forum?

from Herbie's site:

With C-ring made of black beryllium copper and soft, proprietary isolation pads, Herbie's BlackBery Damping Instruments deliver the utmost sonic resolution. Herbie's best damping instrument brings out the "Wow!" factor in your tube gear--for small-signal preamp, input, and driver tubes.

I think for MS anyway, his estimate is conservative and modest at best. 90 day return policy, you can not lose.        I am quickly tirering of subtle improvements when recently I am finding major ones for small audio $$.   

[HumanMedia]

Installing a Hammond 193M choke in parallel to my AC sockets.

Check out the threads at Audio Asylum for more info.

[Lkdog]

Alan Maher AC Power Enhancer. It is a broadband AC filter that plugs into your AC circuit.
$75.

Usually has an ad in Audiogon these days.

I bought one and it had quite positive results and I already have a dedicated line.
Lower noise floor and reduced glare and noise.

I ended up getting two more.

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

http://www.audiointerferencesolutions.com/products.html

Biggie.

[gooberdude]

The Hammond choke tweak sounds very interesting...please report back with yiour findings.

[eric the red]

Alan Maher AC Power Enhancer. It is a broadband AC filter that plugs into your AC circuit.
$75.

Usually has an ad in Audiogon these days.

I bought one and it had quite positive results and I already have a dedicated line.
Lower noise floor and reduced glare and noise.

I ended up getting two more.

Is that a stand alone product that acts like a Noise Harvester or do you plug your PC into it? TIA

[Lkdog]

Eric--

You plug it straight into the outlet. The ones I have do not have the ground blade-just the L/N blades.
He feels they are better than the Hammond choke in most setups
if I understand him correctly.

I have three on my circuit now which is a dedicated line with actually 5 duplexes/or ten outlets total and I have a shitload of stuff plugged into them including a heavy duty Isobar ultra 6 power strip.

Seems to work as advertised for me but as always YMMV. Takes a full week to break in and charge up and adapt to your circuit. If you pull it out-the process starts over again.

Maybe he can chime in here. Not sure if he belongs here. His user name (and email address) at Audio Asylum is audionutge@yahoo.com.
He posts a lot on Tweaks/DIY forum.

Really nice guy and loves to discuss the theory and pragmatics of AC filtering.

Beats the hell out of the guy selling phone calls.