Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?

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jdaun

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Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« on: 30 Nov 2017, 06:22 pm »
I recently purchased some Audyn True Copper caps, to install as bypass caps (in the tweeter circuit of my Hawthorne Audio OB crossovers).

Trying to determine which direction to install these caps.
Not sure if these caps have a preferred polarity. 
Information on the internet is generic and confusing, and I can't find any info specific to Audyn caps.

The wire leads are about the same length on each end of the cap (within about an 1/8th of an inch) so I don't think that's any indication.
End caps are both black color.
The casing of the cap has an arrow printed on it, not sure if that indicates the directionality? 

Here's a link to a photo:   https://photos.app.goo.gl/PHvIyWEcVKCAfw7o2

Any help would be appreciated!

Speedskater

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #1 on: 30 Nov 2017, 06:38 pm »
Directionality in film capacitors is only important in very sensitive circuits. With the outer foil connected to the ground plain.

Audiophile58

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #2 on: 30 Nov 2017, 06:55 pm »
Some companies state this such as a Duelund
Which btw their Silver oil bypass cap is exceptional ,as is the New Jam caps
The Audyn Copper Now has the Plus version even a bit more refined through Hifi collective.

nicoch

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #3 on: 30 Nov 2017, 07:03 pm »
just look the arrow  :thumb:

ohenry

Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #4 on: 30 Nov 2017, 07:19 pm »
I think the arrow points toward ground or lower potential.  Many film caps have a band denoting the outer foil end.  The Audyn is a bit weird in the way it's marked in my limited experience.

It may be a good idea to PM a guy like Jeff at Sonic Craft as he really knows caps.  Good luck with your project.

Speedskater

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #5 on: 30 Nov 2017, 11:37 pm »
The outer foil can matter, but only in the very sensitive parts of a circuit and then only if the printed circuit board has a lot of ground area.

JakeJ

Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #6 on: 1 Dec 2017, 03:08 am »
Could the arrow indicate direction of signal?

Johnny2Bad

Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #7 on: 1 Dec 2017, 07:54 am »
Broadly speaking capacitor manufacturing lines don't differentiate between the inner and outer foil leads; they are marked pretty much at random orientation. Even when a band is marked on the cap, you will probably find that it does not indicate the outer foil, but is just "there". Many years ago (and I mean many years ago) the band did mark the outer foil, but it's just there today as some kind of traditional way to mark caps.

If you believe that the manufacturer marks the outer foil, you should confirm that via a query. Most of the time you will learn that the markings are not indicative of orientation, and you will have to measure them with a 'scope.

Create a test lead from Coax and a BNC connector (or whatever is appropriate for your 'scope). Length is not critical but it should be long enough to be able to move it away from equipment that might introduce noise (including the 'scope itself). Perhaps 18 to 24" (400~600mm).

At the BNC end, connect the centre conductor to the Scope positive, and the shield to the Scope Common.

Attach two short leads to the other end of the Coax cable (a few inches/cm, long enough to comfortably reach the leads of the size of caps you want to test, but no longer). Connect the outer (shield) of the Coax to one alligator clip and another clip to the inner conductor of the Coax.

Hook up the two leads of the cap to the two alligator clips, and view the sine wave trace on the 'scope, while holding the body of the cap in your fingers. Then reverse the clips and view the trace again.

The orientation where they Scope trace has the lowest amplitude is the correct orientation (cap outer foil is connected to the shield alligator clip). Mark it somehow (sharpie, tape you remove later if you want a "clean" looking cap in your project, etc)

By holding the cap body in your fingers you are acting as an antenna and inducing the scope trace. The outer foil acts as a shielded element, reducing the induced amplitude.

When installing, the outer foil should be connected to the lower impedance side of the circuit. You may need a schematic to determine that point, while in other cases it will be obvious.

Connecting the caps oriented properly in circuit will reduce the susceptibility of the circuit to induced noise. In the absence of such noise (yeah, right) there should be no difference in measured performance (they are, after all, bipolar caps), but we live in the real world ;-) Also measurable and audible are not always the same thing.

If intended for a passive crossover application, it may not matter much, although in some "capacitor shootouts" it's said it does. In active circuits, that's another matter entirely.

nicoch

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #8 on: 1 Dec 2017, 10:31 am »
we cannot write a better post !  110% right

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #9 on: 1 Dec 2017, 01:09 pm »
http://jimmyauw.com/2010/04/24/observing-inner-and-outer-foil-of-some-popular-capacitors/

The above link shows differences on the oscilloscope.

Auricap has a primer on how to best use their caps in coupling and crossover applications:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/auricapxo-lead.pdf

But first you need to know which side is the outer foil on your Audyn cap. Either email the manufacturer or figure it out with the oscilloscope.

Whether there are sonic differences opens yet another can of worms...but in the interest of scientific enquiry, I wholeheartedly recommend a measurement done properly.

Best,
Anand.

jdaun

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #10 on: 1 Dec 2017, 04:08 pm »
Thank you all for your responses.

I emailed the manufacturer, and received the following reply:

Quote
Hello Jesse,
 
thank you for your inquiry.
 
The Audyn True capacitors do have no polarity
 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen/With best regards
Intertechnik
i. A. Tanja Dux
 
--------------------------
I.T. Intertechnik Kerpen GmbH
Europaring 28
50170 Kerpen
www.intertechnik.de
www.lautsprecherbau.de
Tel.: +49 (0)2273 90840
Fax.: +49(0)2273 908435
GF: Andreas Wolf
USt. ID.: DE121857034
HRB Köln 41814
-------------------------


Speedskater

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #11 on: 1 Dec 2017, 04:34 pm »
An easier way to identify the outer foil.
Lay the capacitor on a metal surface.
Connect one test lead of a sensitive capacitance meter to the metal surface.
In turn, connect the other test lead to the capacitor's leads.
The one with the higher value is the outer foil

Speedskater

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Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #12 on: 1 Dec 2017, 04:39 pm »
Could the arrow indicate direction of signal?
With an audio signal, as much signal flows one direction as the other. Any directional difference in a cable is distortion!

However some shielded cables have the shield terminated differently at each end.  Don't use this type of cable when connecting a battery powered unit to an AC powered unit.

Johnny2Bad

Re: Polarity/directionality of Audyn True Copper caps?
« Reply #13 on: 2 Dec 2017, 10:48 am »
An easier way to identify the outer foil.
Lay the capacitor on a metal surface.
Connect one test lead of a sensitive capacitance meter to the metal surface.
In turn, connect the other test lead to the capacitor's leads.
The one with the higher value is the outer foil

Interesting, I'll have to try that (and can confirm with 'scope). I've got a DER EE LCR meter and a Tek 2236 (military) analog (and the usual half dozen DMMs).

I believe that more people have (or would buy) a PC-based 'scope than an ELR meter, as they can be had inexpensively via the usual offshore sources and even commercial offerings aren't terribly expensive, but maybe inexpensive DMMs with that function would work on values above a certain threshold of capacitance.

Also someone primarily into speaker building vs bug or board projects might find the LCR more useful, so for those people your tip sounds quite practical.

The 'scope method is most valuable if you've got a box of caps you want to mark for a project, or just to sort out the parts bins, as it's quick for repetitive use.

Thanks for the post.

With regard to sonic differences, it's one of those (rare) instances where the objectivists and subjectivists must certainly agree that orienting the cap with the outer foil to the lower impedance point shields the capacitive elements from noise. So carry on then, using best practices and retreat back to your camps ;-)