AudioCircle

Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 02:35 am

Title: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 02:35 am


In my opinion... this video hits the nail right on its head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII)
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: twitch54 on 6 Jan 2018, 02:53 am
less audiophiles hopefully means more music lovers .......... not a bad thing IMO
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 04:27 am
Are you saying audiophiles are not music lovers?   What is your concept of an audiophile?   NuPrime makes audiophile equipment. 


:scratch:   Did you watch the video????????
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: srb on 6 Jan 2018, 04:47 am
What is your concept of an audiophile?

Someone who obsesses over the directionality of non-directional component parts?
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 04:55 am



Looks like no one has watched the video...   It mentions qualities in music that audiophiles look for in recordings.    Music lovers.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 6 Jan 2018, 04:55 am

In my opinion... this video hits the nail right on its head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII)


No wonder I've migrated back to classical music    :o
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 04:58 am
Someone who obsesses over the directionality of non-directional component parts?



Why are you obsessing over that issue?   That video covers what has been happening to the quality of music recordings and trends that have been destroying sound quality, no matter what direction your fuses are orientated.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 05:01 am

No wonder I've migrated back to classical music    :o


Yup....   for me I have migrated to live jazz and live music in general.   Many European jazz musicians intrigue me, because many of them have had a classical background and blend the two.  Being a musician makes me note the timbre of the instruments.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 6 Jan 2018, 05:02 am


Why are you obsessing over that issue?   That video covers what has been happening to the quality of music recordings and trends that have been destroying sound quality, no matter what direction your fuses are orientated.


Yes.  European SACD recordings of classical performances do NOT follow this para dime.  (Guess that is one of the reasons why I'm listening to them).       
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 6 Jan 2018, 05:05 am

Yup....   for me I have migrated to live jazz and live music in general.   Many European jazz musicians intrigue me, because many of them have had a classical background and blend the two.  Being a musician makes me note the timbre of the instruments.


+1  Agree.


Thanks for posting this video.  It states clearly what I've been noticing for some time, but have not been able to work out why this was happening. 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Letitroll98 on 6 Jan 2018, 07:10 am
Well, the video describes the state of pop music perfectly.  However I rarely if ever listen to pop music, it's mostly grating on my ears.  I have a couple of pop lp's and cd's, some artist struck a chord with me and I bought an album.  In the car I mostly listen to the University of Penn station, they may play absolutely anything, except heavy rap and classical, at any time of the day.  Blues, jazz, alt rock, classic rock and folk, Austin City Limits type of country, spacey mood music late at night, tons of new artists, all sounding great.  So I recognise what the video says is true, it just doesn't impact me at all.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: spence on 6 Jan 2018, 11:47 am
Why? Because the phone has completely consumed their time.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JohnR on 6 Jan 2018, 12:11 pm
Would anyone happen to have a link to the research referenced in the video? (I could only get 4 minutes into it before deciding it's basically schlock reporting.)
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: seikosha on 6 Jan 2018, 12:34 pm
Why? Because the phone has completely consumed their time.

Exactly.  It’s as simple as this.  Anyone around kids a lot kids can see it.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: macrojack on 6 Jan 2018, 12:52 pm
The number one reason for reduction of audiophile participation is realization of life expectancy (death). A few other prominent factors include loss of money, loss of health (especially hearing), loss of interest, and sometimes a change of interest. In my own case, there has been a gradual softening of requirements over the past 20 years. Nowadays, I'm more interested in watching than listening. Rap is repulsive, simplistic, repetitive, idiomatically obtuse and socially repugnant to me. Pop music seems to have abandoned any essence whatsoever and communicates so superficially and pretentiously that it fails to communicate anything useful to me. Everything else one might find without extensive digging is probably time worn, nostalgic or both.
Consider for a moment that "audiophile" is an artificial construct invented to designate who is a "mark" for exploitive pricing and fantasy specs. Some of us have found that we would prefer to avoid that title. We are among the missing ....... and our presence among the missing has become significant enough to generate specious reporting and speculative repercussions.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 6 Jan 2018, 02:21 pm
Thanks for the link.  I thought I was getting old and out of touch (with modern pop music).   :roll:  :lol:  :oops:

We have become a society of convenience, instant gratification, constant entertainment, and virtual realities.

Vinyl and tubes don't fit any of those attributes and can seem so 19th century to today's youth.

NuPrime fits in today's world: compact, energy efficient, digital friendly, simple aesthetics, and affordable.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Photon46 on 6 Jan 2018, 02:23 pm
That was pretty well produced short summation of the state of the popular music industry IMO. Your post's title might be more relevant to the video if it were "Why do we seem to care less about music today?" or something like that. Lot's of people in the sixties who loved music never became audiophiles and most professional musicians aren't audiophiles, so exposure to and understanding of good music doesn't mean one is going to develop an obsession with audiophile issues.

That said, one big reason for people's declining in complex music is the constant sensory saturation and infinite entertainment choices in our environment. Like the narrator mentioned, when we can get access to any song in the world, if the song doesn't grab us instantly we move on. We who grew up in the sixties didn't have access to every video, tv show, movie, podcast, or song at our fingertips instantly. We had fewer choices and we had to pay for each choice. The state of the music business is just a side effect of the broader picture in entertainment.

The one part of the video that was a bit too overgeneralized was where the narrator suggests that if you need repeated exposure to music to love it, it means you have been brainwashed into appreciating it. I get what he means in reference to mass market pop music, but it's not true for a lot of good music. I didn't like 2nd Viennese School music at first, I had to learn to appreciate Schoenberg and Berg. As well as numerous other examples.

Loved that "Millennial Whoop," I hadn't heard that one before!
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Phil A on 6 Jan 2018, 02:38 pm
For one thing, there are less high end audio stores than there used to be.  There are various reasons for it - some discussed here - https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/decline-high-end-audio-sales-new-outlook/

It seems the electronics that are most readily available are based on convenience vs. sound quality. People getting interested in music are going to hear the music on that type of convenient platform and the vast majority will never experience it on a good home system and probably don't really care about it.  Just look at the commercials on TV for Alexa, Google Home, etc.  They can hear music conveniently and do other things.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JDoyle on 6 Jan 2018, 04:27 pm
IMHO, the point that hits the nail on the head is the "risk" point that video makes. It's not like there isn't any new stuff with new bands trying new things (THERE IS!  :D). It's just harder to find, be exposed to and be pushed to listen to.

There are many reasons and many people to blame (including the listeners themselves  :( ).

I think we can all help though.  In this new year, ask yourself what you could do to expose something new to someone. I did this last year by making some compilation disks for my 30 something nephews. I gave them stuff that they never heard before... Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, early Genesis, King Chrimson Tommy Bolin and others.  I told them they must give them "the 5 play promise", before they stopped listening.

Truth be told, they didn't all love everything, but we compared notes and one in particular did enjoy most. We plan to share more back and forth soon  :thumb:

JD
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Jon L on 6 Jan 2018, 05:16 pm
For one thing, there are less high end audio stores than there used to be.  There are various reasons for it - some discussed here - https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/decline-high-end-audio-sales-new-outlook/


That's a rather involved article, but I do agree that young people or newcomers simply do not have a physical place they can go and experience that "high end sound" and realize MP3 playing via bluetooth is not enough.  They DO have tons of easy access to youtube videos, on-line games, compressed entertainment, etc, so that's the way they spend their time. 

On the upside, if one did get the "bug," it will cost so much less money now to assemble a spirited system compared to a decade or two ago.  Speaker driver technology and digital technology (both DAC and amplification), in particular,  have yielded some beatiful gear at reasonable prices IMO.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 05:17 pm
Thanks for the link.  I thought I was getting old and out of touch (with modern pop music).   :roll:  :lol:  :oops:

We have become a society of convenience, instant gratification, constant entertainment, and virtual realities.

Vinyl and tubes don't fit any of those attributes and can seem so 19th century to today's youth.

NuPrime fits in today's world: compact, energy efficient, digital friendly, simple aesthetics, and affordable.

Don't underestimate the younger people who can think for themselves.   You'll find them in vinyl stores.... even discussing the virtues of the tube sound.  I witnessed to it.  I do not buy vinyl any more.   Just went in to browse.  Overheard a conversation and chuckled to myself... and also felt a sense of relief.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2018, 05:27 pm
Young people are much more likely to be aware of audiophile gear than previous generations. What they dont care about is enermous ugly speakers from the 70's, overly complicated solutions, and most of all it isnt them who wouldnt buy a tube amp and a bunch of midrange gear, it is their pocket books they inhereted from baby-boomers. They cant afford to care, but hopefully that'll change.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: nickd on 6 Jan 2018, 05:38 pm
Lots of good points here, cellphones etc.

I do think the personal and portable, has inspired the popularity of headphones thus reducing stand alone systems.

That and a huge cultural shift to more crowded living spaces. New tract homes usually have a TV over a fireplace. Not a spot in the house for a pair of floor standing loudspeakers. And where would you put any components?

As the recording industry money dried up, so did any focus on recording quality and mastering. Most of the stuff we are hearing today was recorded in a “Home studio” using a laptop computer. Then mastered on a pair of $300.00 plastic pro monitors.

Good sounding microphones, analog tape and Altec’s in the mastering suite are sorely missed indeed.

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 05:46 pm

Vinyl and tubes don't fit any of those attributes and can seem so 19th century to today's youth.

NuPrime fits in today's world: compact, energy efficient, digital friendly, simple aesthetics, and affordable.


I think you should take a peek over in the Head-Fi forum.  Serious Headophiles.  Nuprime is well known over there by the younger generation. Also,  many tube head amps are being listened with.  They discuss power cords and fuses, too.   

Headphones are the main thrust over there.... it seems to be where the younger audiophiles are heading while they are not able to yet afford a full system. Heck at their age we were buying Kenwood receivers and Advent speakers.  At least that is what I saw at that time.  It was the older folks buying the Nakamichis and the Luxman.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: WGH on 6 Jan 2018, 06:01 pm
In this new year, ask yourself what you could do to expose something new to someone. I did this last year by making some compilation disks for my 30 something nephews. I gave them stuff that they never heard before... Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, early Genesis, King Chrimson Tommy Bolin and others.  I told them they must give them "the 5 play promise", before they stopped listening.

Once we are gone there will be nobody to teach the young ones how excellent the original music was, instead they will use Bruno Mars (meh) as an example of how good music used to be instead of all the Motown he mimics.

There has always been bad music, a local DJ liked to play obscure tracks from famous bands, the result was 25 minutes of really horrible music by really good bands. Now there is more bad music to sort through but it can be done, the proof is in the 109 GB in my New Music folder, none of it is current pop.

Young music listeners probably get better sound on their headphones than we ever did with our Kenwood receivers and Advent speakers. A friend still uses Advent speakers and although they were well regarded in their time they sound horrible by today's standard.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: brother love on 6 Jan 2018, 06:17 pm
Based on the linked YouTube video, is the OP inferring that the decline in Pop music quality has resulted in there being less audiophiles? If so, it is a lame assertion. Speaking of which, why is this thread in the Nuprime forum anyways?

That aside, I would argue with many of the points in the referenced video:

Re: Millenial Whoop & complex instrumentation- 3 chord songs have always been a mainstay in pop music. What about blues music? Some great stripped-down songs are powerful & grab you by the throat.

Compression-related issues & limitations had their place back in the 60’s too.  Music was toned way down due to the limits of transistor radios & cheap stereos. Then there was 8 tracks & cassettes after that.

As far as “quality” goes … for every “Day in the Life” or “Like a Rolling Stone”, there were a plethora of  “Yummy, Yummy, Yummy” or “Sugar, Sugar” type songs. To compare songs of Dylan, Beatles, etc. with Justin Bieber, etc. is a ridiculously lazy exercise.  It’s like comparing “The Graduate” to “The Emoji Movie”.  What’s the point? There are best of/ worst of for every year, decade, etc..

The brainwashing point was legit, but it also applied to buying an album. Repeated listenings of the same songs after you plucked down hard earned cash was also a reason to like something in spite of early impressions.

As far as the actual thread title re: less audiophiles …

Entertainment choices are so much more extensive AND accessible than they were back in the 50’s- 60’s (where back in the day … to see a movie, you had to go to the theater, there were 3 channels on TV, radio/ albums/ reel-to-reel were only music sources outside of live performances.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 06:26 pm
Based on the linked YouTube video, is the OP inferring that the decline in Pop music quality has resulted in there being less audiophiles?


There will always be audiophiles.   Just more frustrated audiophiles.   People who can never discover that they are an audiophile.

If you have the gift for a musical instrument?   You'll walk around feeling not right and empty about something undefined if there are no instruments around for you to discover your gift with.   
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: charmerci on 6 Jan 2018, 06:31 pm
Literally, the first thing that I notice is that there are hardly any good intros (about 20 seconds to a 1:30) anymore. The Doors were good at it. Now, it's a few drum hits, a quick lyric or a bass riff then it's right into the music with all the musicians playing the whole 3 minutes without stopping. In other words, arrangements have been thrown out the window.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 6 Jan 2018, 06:36 pm
Compression-related issues & limitations had their place back in the 60’s too.  Music was toned way down due to the limits of transistor radios & cheap stereos. Then there was 8 tracks & cassettes after that.



Compression was used differently back then.   It was to prevent peaks that would cause the stylus to jump out of the groove, or distort.  Now. with digital not having this dynamic range limitation?.. They jack up the volume on all instruments in an unnatural way.   Its not the same thing. 

Back then they also had to pump up some of the lower level sound as to rise above the groove noise inherent with record playing.  But not like what they are doing now.  Back then is was to adjust to the limits of the playback record player, or tape overload.  Now with high dynamic range of digital its being abused and keeping listeners from really enjoying full range in a way that was never possible before.   

Its become the "junk audio" industry, just like some big food producers are doing in destroying the nutritional qualities of foods, just so that the shelf life can be extended for more money in their pockets.  The shelf life is extended because even bacteria can not live off of it effectively.  The love of money is the root of all evil.  Not money.  The love of money is.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2018, 06:38 pm
Negative space has become almost a lost art form.

Lots of young people love music. Lots of young bands, some good. Problem? Money. They can't afford anything worth a damn to play on let alone record with.

You have to take to heart... Mainstream until 70's = pretty good. 80's was a mix. 90's it was pretty bad. Now mainstream is basically unbelievable trash. *All* the young music lovers get this and either listen to old music or independent non-top-40 stuff.

Here's a local place (https://thebartlettspokane.ticketfly.com/). Check out any of the bands playing there on their bandcamp/myspace/etc.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: WGH on 6 Jan 2018, 06:47 pm
The video mentioned the simplification of modern lyrics, he must not have heard the original 1959 version of Woo-Hoo by the Rock-A-Teens, it was a big hit when I was growing up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cLsFtGE8zU

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/Rock-A-Teens_Woo-Hoo.jpg)
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: WGH on 6 Jan 2018, 06:57 pm

...big food producers are doing in destroying the nutritional qualities of foods, just so that the shelf life can be extended for more money in their pockets.  The shelf life is extended because even bacteria can not live off of it effectively.

The bad news: New Twinkies have a shelf life of 45 days
The good news: Twinkies never had any nutritional value
More good news: According to Hostess, it takes forty-five seconds to explode a Twinkie in a microwave.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Elizabeth on 6 Jan 2018, 07:02 pm
Fwer audiophiles because audiophile companies are putting themselves out of business.
Plus complexity.
Most of us are old(er). When we started a great stereo had a turntable, and speakers, and either a receiver/separate amp preamp. and a few free cables, or at most a few dollars worth of wire.
And you had a stereo.
Then Cd got added, then streaming
And add in wires,
Then all of our OWN bickering.
Anyone interested at all would read this stuff, look at the prices, and find some other hobby!

Also with the rise of gaming.. most young folks if they had a few hundred bucks, would spend it on a Playstation or XBox. And not on a stereo.
Though I agree headphones do seem to be the way to a future revival of audiophilia.. When all those young'ins get a house, and a real job.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: charmerci on 6 Jan 2018, 07:04 pm
The video mentioned the simplification of modern lyrics, he must not have heard the original 1959 version of Woo-Hoo by the Rock-A-Teens, it was a big hit when I was growing up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cLsFtGE8zU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cLsFtGE8zU)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/Rock-A-Teens_Woo-Hoo.jpg)

Sure - it happened back then but take a week in '59 then '69 - listen to the top 10 hits and then compare one week in Dec. '17. NO comparison!!!
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: deadhead on 6 Jan 2018, 07:07 pm
I believe some of the issue is access.  In the 70's there were places like Tech Hifi where teens were welcome to come in and listen/play around.  It was a different segment of the market than the high end stores.  I don't see those kinds of places for my kids (21 and 25) to explore.  Going into Best Buy for example isn't the same experience.  The knowledge base is much lower and they're trying to be everything to everyone.

We, as a group, have figured it out due to necessity.  We spend the time researching online and direct to consumer.  We've already done the legwork and have an idea of what we want.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: charmerci on 6 Jan 2018, 07:36 pm
I just listened to Woo-Hoo. I'll break it down to show you why that song is far more complex than a modern hit.

Intro - single voice followed by -
2) guitar with a riff that then changes in the middle
3) add drums
4) add vocals
5 add saxophone
6) stop everything - drum solo
7) cowbell to drum solo
8 - stop cowbell add guitar with change of guitar riff (8 with a para keeps turning it into a  8) !)
9) re-add cowbell
10) resume vocal and sax
11) guitar solo
12) add interplay with drum
13)resume vocal
14) ending that doesn't sound like any of the rest of the song

It's actually an incredibly complex song with lots of arrangement. All in less than 2 minutes!
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: bacobits1 on 6 Jan 2018, 08:57 pm
AND....that's why "Pretty Woman" is such a classic! Really listen to it. Superb!

Way too much trash today. This came from the RAP hip hop junk.
Don't get me started on the absolute drivel on TV.
What shit these people are getting huge pay checks for!
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: WGH on 6 Jan 2018, 09:05 pm
Plus complexity.

When newbies come over they ask what all the black boxes are for, I start describing the music server and can see there eyes starting to glaze over, moving to the DAC (which they never heard of) I start loosing them, at the pre-amp and amp I've completely lost them. At that point I don't even mention prices. But they always love the way it sounds, to them it is like watching a movie. I like movies too but will never buy the equipment to make one, my friends will never buy the equipment to make music.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: neekomax on 6 Jan 2018, 09:33 pm
I think the answer to the OP's question might have to do with the eminently uninteresting AND errant tone and themes of the discussion here: "Old stuff was great, new stuff is shite".

Hey you kids! Off of my lawn with your hippity hoppin and rappity rappin! Lawrence Welk is REAL music!  :lol:

Dudes, there's galaxies more, and more interesting, and better recorded, and more varied, music now than ever. Just 'cause no one's spoon feeding the best of it over airwaves to the masses is nothing to get all huffy or despondent about.

 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2018, 09:54 pm
When newbies come over they ask what all the black boxes are for, I start describing the music server and can see there eyes starting to glaze over, moving to the DAC (which they never heard of) I start loosing them, at the pre-amp and amp I've completely lost them. At that point I don't even mention prices. But they always love the way it sounds, to them it is like watching a movie. I like movies too but will never buy the equipment to make one, my friends will never buy the equipment to make music.

So true. But the buy in for all-in-one isn't cheap. The LIO is a fabulous all-in-one, and not expensive at all for what it is, but is still a price tag where many people are going to be thinking for more than a moment about it. I see nothing wrong with the pricing, but rather that paying someone to do something well is such a burden on the income level.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Photon46 on 6 Jan 2018, 10:24 pm
I think the answer to the OP's question might have to do with the eminently uninteresting AND errant tone and themes of the discussion here: "Old stuff was great, new stuff is shite".

Hey you kids! Off of my lawn with your hippity hoppin and rappity rappin! Lawrence Welk is REAL music!  :lol:

Dudes, there's galaxies more, and more interesting, and better recorded, and more varied, music now than ever. Just 'cause no one's spoon feeding the best of it over airwaves to the masses is nothing to get all huffy or despondent about.

The narrator in the video that this discussion is supposed to be about never said that "new music is shit." The issue is the quality of the majority of stuff at the top of the charts these days. As the narrator stated and I think most of us would agree, there is still a lot of great music being made by many excellent artists. However, the music industry isn't taking any chances on losing money by promoting unfamiliar artists.  So, one has to get past the Billboard charts to find good stuff. That wasn't the case in the past, mass market tastes were more diversified and there wasn't the present reluctance we see on the part of major labels to invest in new artist R&D.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 6 Jan 2018, 10:46 pm
So true. But the buy in for all-in-one isn't cheap. The LIO is a fabulous all-in-one, and not expensive at all for what it is, but is still a price tag where many people are going to be thinking for more than a moment about it. I see nothing wrong with the pricing, but rather that paying someone to do something well is such a burden on the income level.


There are a number of ways to get a good sounding system.  One of my relatives just re-did his den with a Yamaha AVR, two subwoofers, and Monitor audio in wall speakers.  While I'm sure many here would not consider it audiophile, it sounds pretty good for both movies and music (and it was not expensive by high end pricing.)  I have a Devialet unit, which provides the same all in one approach as LIO (in a similar price range).   The reality is that there just is not the interest in getting a high quality sound system.  What interest I've seen in higher quality audio with younger folks is in the portable DAP market.  There are a number of good sounding options available in the DAP arena today, as well as quality headphones. 


Today's popular pop/rock music just does not interest me.  There are some excellent music/artists out there (James Hunter and Joe Bonamassa come to mind), but it's not easy for them to get mainstream exposure. 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2018, 10:59 pm
I think the interest has a relativity to ability to spend. When people look at something they wager whether it'll detract from more important things to them. The flow has direction aligned with interest on a hierarchical structure.

Simple fact, no one can afford to make amazing things for people at the cheap level of what China can do. But China does not do, it is simulacra, merely the idea rather than the full on function.

I'm working on speakers right now. And I think I'm working on unlocking something special. But there is no good way to make it cost nothing. It simply is an impossibility. Even the cheapest goodish speakers you can buy today straight outta china cost $300 (Elac).

Maybe the industry is partly to blame, since no one is offering anything very "new" most of the time. That's problematic with the poor quality of mastering/mixing today. The medium of recorded music as a whole is surprisingly unimpressive.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: WGH on 6 Jan 2018, 11:24 pm

Today's popular pop/rock music just does not interest me.  There are some excellent music/artists out there ..... but it's not easy for them to get mainstream exposure.

I thought "The War on Drugs" was a mainstream band, especially after 6 albums. I played "A Deeper Understanding" during our Saturday morning workout and Maria (60), Suzie (45), and her son Brock (16) had never heard of the band. Next week I'm bringing Thievery Corporation - The Temple of I & I and expect the same results.


Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Doublej on 6 Jan 2018, 11:52 pm
Because audiophiles have remained stagnant while the world has changed.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 7 Jan 2018, 12:12 am
I just listened to Woo-Hoo. I'll break it down to show you why that song is far more complex than a modern hit.

Intro - single voice followed by -
2) guitar with a riff that then changes in the middle
3) add drums
4) add vocals
5 add saxophone
6) stop everything - drum solo
7) cowbell to drum solo
8 - stop cowbell add guitar with change of guitar riff (8 with a para keeps turning it into a  8) !)
9) re-add cowbell
10) resume vocal and sax
11) guitar solo
12) add interplay with drum
13)resume vocal
14) ending that doesn't sound like any of the rest of the song

It's actually an incredibly complex song with lots of arrangement. All in less than 2 minutes!


And,  its sounds like its a real band playing together in a real room. 

 Not some patchwork of isolated musicians playing on a flat surface like we hear too often today.  They played raw and let the flubs fall where they may.   

People got excited when they played and danced to the music.  Today its too cautious and calculated.....  IMHO.  The best music I played was live and without a click track.  When the people on the floor smiled and laughed, and got more exercise than they would in gym class.   We had fun and did not have to get high to get into the music...  In one word?  " Enthusiasm. "   Today its all politically correct...  or its become immoral to be moral.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rocker9999 on 7 Jan 2018, 12:13 am
A lot of music made today - isn't worth "hearing any better" - than its already being presented.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: mgsboedmisodpc2 on 7 Jan 2018, 12:29 am
 if you are into head phones and stream your music can you be considered an audiophile
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 7 Jan 2018, 12:46 am
I think the answer to the OP's question might have to do with the eminently uninteresting AND errant tone and themes of the discussion here: "Old stuff was great, new stuff is shite".

Hey you kids! Off of my lawn with your hippity hoppin and rappity rappin! Lawrence Welk is REAL music!  :lol:

Dudes, there's galaxies more, and more interesting, and better recorded, and more varied, music now than ever. Just 'cause no one's spoon feeding the best of it over airwaves to the masses is nothing to get all huffy or despondent about.


Maybe....  we should read the comment sections of YouTube videos of music of the era when music still had a melody and great harmonies.   I have seen a good many sad comments by young people wishing they were alive then, or could hear music played like that today.

And,  its not about the age I grew up in.  If you love music, the styles of earlier generations will move you too when they wailed and swung.   A clarinet solo of Benny Goodman is surprisingly much like a style that Eric Clapton played in some of his solos.  I would have never noticed that until... my dad surprised me when the band I was in had rehearsal over the house.  We had a lead guitarist who was surprisingly good and would wail with finesse.   My dad told me on the side that the guitarist is excellent and would have made a great  clarinetist during the swing era.   At that time the thought stunned me.  Then years later while listening to Sing Sing Sing I finally got what he meant.

Back in earlier generations they may have had a sound and a restraint that we do not immediately relate to....  but when soloing, some of the greats were shredding with all their soul.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 7 Jan 2018, 12:49 am
if you are into head phones and stream your music can you be considered an audiophile


YES!   Interestingly,  some of the biggest fanatics with fuses and power cords ARE the head phone users...  Not to mention using all sorts of exotic USB filters.  They make me look moderate in certain ways. 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JerryM on 7 Jan 2018, 01:03 am
if you are into head phones and stream your music can you be considered an audiophile

Not in my book.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: HT cOz on 7 Jan 2018, 01:22 am
I watched half the video but don’t buy into it.  It’s all available today you just have to go find it.  I liked this series to better tie the past to the present http://soundbreaking.com (http://soundbreaking.com)

I listen to all kinds of music including Pop and Rap and enjoy it.  I listen on headphones and in the house on good systems and in my horrible car system.  I enjoy Audiophile system building and finding the synergy between components.  I’ve built my own speakers and gear, its fun.  Each generation finds a way to make their contribution and these young kids today are also finding their way on YouTube and their computers.  They are making music and connecting with each other.  Bravo to them!  They like headphones and some of them will grow into a bigger system someday.   
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Elizabeth on 7 Jan 2018, 02:02 am
I would say anyone is an audiophile who wants better sound (than average)
There is no requirement IMO than wanting better than average sound quality.
So yes a headphone only user can be an audiophile.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: charmerci on 7 Jan 2018, 02:54 am
I think the interest has a relativity to ability to spend. When people look at something they wager whether it'll detract from more important things to them. The flow has direction aligned with interest on a hierarchical structure.

Simple fact, no one can afford to make amazing things for people at the cheap level of what China can do. But China does not do, it is simulacra, merely the idea rather than the full on function.

I'm working on speakers right now. And I think I'm working on unlocking something special. But there is no good way to make it cost nothing. It simply is an impossibility. Even the cheapest goodish speakers you can buy today straight outta china cost $300 (Elac).


I think another fundamental problem is simply psychological.
In 1975 - if you were earning 3 bucks and hour that is the equivalent of $14+ today and $300 is over $1400.

Things sound and "look" more expensive but they really are CHEAPER!!!  :o That $300 ELAC speaker that Folsom mentioned would have "only cost" $63 back then!
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Folsom on 7 Jan 2018, 03:11 am
Because audiophiles have remained stagnant while the world has changed.

That also reads like, "Over the decades audiiphiles have refused to take the blue pill and believe that physics no longer apply to audio reproduction, they're lost in the past unable to make themselves believe a bluetooth tube charged by USB creates ultra fidelity"
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: neekomax on 7 Jan 2018, 03:29 am
That also reads like, "Over the decades audiiphiles have refused to take the blue pill and believe that physics no longer apply to audio reproduction, they're lost in the past unable to make themselves believe a bluetooth tube charged by USB creates ultra fidelity"e

What, pray tell, is a 'bluetooth tube'?

And I think the "red pill" is arguably that which is demonstrably effective on the sound field in question, and therefore can take the form of things that an older audiophile might be unfamiliar with, and hence mistrust. And the 'blue pill' might include things which do not effect the sound field in discernible, or desirable ways, like expensive cables, 4 figure DACs, or metaphysical 'tweaks'- cable lifters, resonators and the like-, yet which might be more acceptable to the old guard for whatever reason.

Take care when casting stones, glass housed brethren.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: reillyzing on 7 Jan 2018, 03:32 am
The answer is, audiophiles have started pissing off the wrong people.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: neekomax on 7 Jan 2018, 03:33 am
The answer is, audiophiles have started pissing off the wrong people.

Um. Who dat?
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: sumoking on 7 Jan 2018, 03:39 am
I think the boomers are getting older and not able to spend money on this hobby anymore due to other priorities and the younger generation growing up on MP3 files just don't care.

Its a dying breed and it always serve a niche market and never be mainstream.

Think about it, when we were starting out, it was cool to hear Pink Floyd in high fidelity.

What are the same aged kids listening to these days?

Some kind of RAP or HipHop?  Give them some booming subs and they are set.



Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: mgsboedmisodpc2 on 7 Jan 2018, 03:45 am
JerryM the headphone market has price markup comparable to the audiophile market..and let us not forget the headphone market generated more revenue than any segment within the audiophile market due to smart phones and music services. So the toys of the audiophile have just changed abit..no floor stand speakers and instead ear speakers.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 7 Jan 2018, 03:46 am
Because audiophiles have remained stagnant while the world has changed.


Stagnant?   How old are you?   You must be quite young to say that.

We have great advances in audio today, even in average equipment, because of what audiophiles were demanding years ago...   
From amplification, to speakers, to improved interconnects and cables.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: reillyzing on 7 Jan 2018, 04:30 am
Um. Who dat?
Was not meant to be taken seriously..

I don't know that the number of people interested in hearing their music sound better has dwindled that much, but for those who listen predominantly to modern pop and rock, revealing speakers and amps won't make many of those mixes/mastering sound better.. The interest in achieving better sound is always going to be there, in my opinion, but record companies and current musicians are not making it possible because of their mixing and mastering choices.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: neekomax on 7 Jan 2018, 05:45 am
The narrator in the video that this discussion is supposed to be about never said that "new music is shit." The issue is the quality of the majority of stuff at the top of the charts these days. As the narrator stated and I think most of us would agree, there is still a lot of great music being made by many excellent artists. However, the music industry isn't taking any chances on losing money by promoting unfamiliar artists.  So, one has to get past the Billboard charts to find good stuff. That wasn't the case in the past, mass market tastes were more diversified and there wasn't the present reluctance we see on the part of major labels to invest in new artist R&D.

No one cares about Billboard charts or any other gate-keeper bullshit anymore. That's the whole point: The internet age is about the constructive (and yes, destructive) chaos of a world without gate keepers: Radio DJs, MTV, critics, charts, "mainstream" validation, stupid awards given by self congratulatory guilds of self proclaimed professionals, you name it, the internet age cares not about it.

What does it care about? Well, that's the good news. It cares about whatever niche thing you do. Don't care about rap, or think it sucks? Guess what, nor (so) do I! Fantastic. Let's hang out online and bond over what we DO like.

These days, there's not a second of my day that is disrupted by that which I deem undesirable, in good part thanks to the way I use the internet. And that freedom is available to us all. Hallelujah! You know when it wasn't? When I was 10 in 1985, and I relied on FM radio and MTV to grace me with whatever major label offering was shoveled my way in great abundance, 'round the clock.

The notion that we're not living in the most golden of ages, in which the sheer panoply of music and art and all kinds of great stuff - from today AND from the past - isn't happening is completely silly. Know what I'm saying?

And if people dig it on headphones, or bluetooth speakers, or $75,000 line arrays in purpose built 800 sq. ft. rooms (lucky them), who are we to judge?
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 7 Jan 2018, 06:38 am
...but for those who listen predominantly to modern pop and rock, revealing speakers and amps won't make many of those mixes/mastering sound better..

Although it does so in different ways than when compared to the effect of revealing gear on other more "audiophile" music genres, I would respectfully disagree with this statement.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 7 Jan 2018, 09:33 am
Answer: we're not. I was reading these same "doom and gloom" editorials when I was 14; I'm 60 now. It's never been a mainstream hobby, it never will be. Get over it. Nothing to see here, move along, folks.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 7 Jan 2018, 11:28 am

I think you should take a peek over in the Head-Fi forum.  Serious Headophiles.  Nuprime is well known over there by the younger generation. Also,  many tube head amps are being listened with.  They discuss power cords and fuses, too.   

Headphones are the main thrust over there.... it seems to be where the younger audiophiles are heading while they are not able to yet afford a full system. Heck at their age we were buying Kenwood receivers and Advent speakers.  At least that is what I saw at that time.  It was the older folks buying the Nakamichis and the Luxman.

I did headphones while living in the dorms, made sense, but as soon as possible I was back to in-room listening.  Back then hi-fi was about the only cool high tech game in town.  Now disposable income can go to cell phones, AV systems, video games, and computers.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 7 Jan 2018, 11:37 am
Fwer audiophiles because audiophile companies are putting themselves out of business.
Plus complexity.
Most of us are old(er). When we started a great stereo had a turntable, and speakers, and either a receiver/separate amp preamp. and a few free cables, or at most a few dollars worth of wire.
And you had a stereo.
Then Cd got added, then streaming
And add in wires,
Then all of our OWN bickering.
Anyone interested at all would read this stuff, look at the prices, and find some other hobby!

Also with the rise of gaming.. most young folks if they had a few hundred bucks, would spend it on a Playstation or XBox. And not on a stereo.
Though I agree headphones do seem to be the way to a future revival of audiophilia.. When all those young'ins get a house, and a real job.

You can still have in-room listening quality without breaking the bank (more so now than ever before, adjusted for inflation).  Example:  computer (given that we all have one); Meridian Explorer 2 ($200); RCA/XLR adaptors ($6); XLR cable ($15); JBL LSR305 speakers ($250/pair); Tidal ($20/month) = $471 + $20/month for access to 45 million tracks including MQA.  If your computer is a laptop, the entire system can be quite portable.  Or substitute Koss Porta Pro headphones ($50) for the adaptors, cable, and speakers for a nice, more portable headphone based system = $250 + $20/month.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 7 Jan 2018, 11:41 am
Not in my book.

-1

Tital is Redbook/MQA quality.

Snobbery is one of the factors that turn folks off from hifi listening.  I made that mistake a year ago at a friend's place.  He brought me to his bedroom to show off his new AV system which consisted of a huge curved screen TV and a tiny 5.1 system with teeny wires and I told him exactly what I thought of it.  20 years ago I'd convinced him to buy very nice $400/pair speakers for his living room system and I was very disappointed. 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 7 Jan 2018, 11:46 am
Was not meant to be taken seriously..

I don't know that the number of people interested in hearing their music sound better has dwindled that much, but for those who listen predominantly to modern pop and rock, revealing speakers and amps won't make many of those mixes/mastering sound better.. The interest in achieving better sound is always going to be there, in my opinion, but record companies and current musicians are not making it possible because of their mixing and mastering choices.

+1

The point of the video is that we've dumbed down modern pop music to the point that there's no point in having higher fidelity playback.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Photon46 on 7 Jan 2018, 12:21 pm
No one cares about Billboard charts or any other gate-keeper bullshit anymore. That's the whole point: The internet age is about the constructive (and yes, destructive) chaos of a world without gate keepers: Radio DJs, MTV, critics, charts, "mainstream" validation, stupid awards given by self congratulatory guilds of self proclaimed professionals, you name it, the internet age cares not about it.

What does it care about? Well, that's the good news. It cares about whatever niche thing you do. Don't care about rap, or think it sucks? Guess what, nor (so) do I! Fantastic. Let's hang out online and bond over what we DO like.


The notion that we're not living in the most golden of ages, in which the sheer panoply of music and art and all kinds of great stuff - from today AND from the past - isn't happening is completely silly. Know what I'm saying?

As with all things it seems, there are good things and less so good about this current state of affairs. First thing that strikes me as bad (from an artist's perspective) is is that a previous pathway towards earning a living, royalties from sales, has mostly disappeared from the equation because everyone now expects music to be free or nearly so. Live shows are the only way to earn a livelihood now and that gets old.

Recording technology has gotten a lot less expensive to get to a certain level of quality, but there's still no substitute for having the resources of a recording label, producer, and engineer behind an artist. As the video mentions, major labels just won't put resources into developing artists with unproven sales potential anymore.

As to "no one cares about gatekeepers anymore," that strikes me as only partially true. Those few that make it past the gatekeepers enjoy great wealth and the rest cater to their niche audience and struggle to survive. That has always been true but the qualities of those allowed through the gate now have been become more rigidly defined. Again, all this talk about the wonderful infinite choices of the digital age is spoken from the consumer's side of the equation. The constant fractionalization of markets for artistic product means it get's harder and harder to be a serious full time artist IMO. Whether we're talking about news, opinion, & information, music, or visual art - we can now find near infinite sources to cater to our personal perspectives and biases. Great for the individual but at the same time that variety diminishes the communal experience of societal togetherness. If we place the desires and wants of the individual first in our value hierarchy, that's great. If we suspect there may be worthwhile values other than individualism, there may be downsides to all this.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: neekomax on 7 Jan 2018, 02:09 pm
+1

The point of the video is that we've dumbed down modern pop music to the point that there's no point in having higher fidelity playback.

There's been terrible, 'dumbed down' pop since the '50s. Of course there's lots music worthy of higher fidelity playback. That it's not 'on the charts' or whatever there even is now is of little concern to me. 

And somebody brought up bass. Bass is relevant to the discussion. You know what has pretty unsatisfactory bass? Most recordings before 1965. I'll take most modern stuff with bass into the 30s, thank you very much. Sounds way better, and is more fun to listen to. YMMV.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: neekomax on 7 Jan 2018, 02:16 pm
As with all things it seems, there are good things and less so good about this current state of affairs. First thing that strikes me as bad (from an artist's perspective) is is that a previous pathway towards earning a living, royalties from sales, has mostly disappeared from the equation because everyone now expects music to be free or nearly so. Live shows are the only way to earn a livelihood now and that gets old.

Recording technology has gotten a lot less expensive to get to a certain level of quality, but there's still no substitute for having the resources of a recording label, producer, and engineer behind an artist. As the video mentions, major labels just won't put resources into developing artists with unproven sales potential anymore.

As to "no one cares about gatekeepers anymore," that strikes me as only partially true. Those few that make it past the gatekeepers enjoy great wealth and the rest cater to their niche audience and struggle to survive. That has always been true but the qualities of those allowed through the gate now have been become more rigidly defined. Again, all this talk about the wonderful infinite choices of the digital age is spoken from the consumer's side of the equation. The constant fractionalization of markets for artistic product means it get's harder and harder to be a serious full time artist IMO. Whether we're talking about news, opinion, & information, music, or visual art - we can now find near infinite sources to cater to our personal perspectives and biases. Great for the individual but at the same time that variety diminishes the communal experience of societal togetherness. If we place the desires and wants of the individual first in our value hierarchy, that's great. If we suspect there may be worthwhile values other than individualism, there may be downsides to all this.

These are good points, in general. I'm a musician who still gigs, but made my (modest) living for about a decade playing shows in my 20s. So I do consider both sides of the equation.

It is hard to be a full time artist, always has been, but with super cheap recording tech, crowdfunding and viral marketing replacing label support and more numerous record deals, it's just hard in a new and different way than it was.

Music ain't going nowhere. 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: mfsoa on 7 Jan 2018, 02:29 pm
Although it does so in different ways than when compared to the effect of revealing gear on other more "audiophile" music genres, I would respectfully disagree with this statement.

I agree with Jonathon. In many cases I find that music that sounded poor on less revealing equipment can sound much better on very revealing equipment, as things that used to be mushed and distorted together are now resolved and revealed to actually consist of valid musical information.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: charmerci on 7 Jan 2018, 06:28 pm

Snobbery is one of the factors that turn folks off from hifi listening.  I made that mistake a year ago at a friend's place.  He brought me to his bedroom to show off his new AV system which consisted of a huge curved screen TV and a tiny 5.1 system with teeny wires and I told him exactly what I thought of it.  20 years ago I'd convinced him to buy very nice $400/pair speakers for his living room system and I was very disappointed.

Maybe it wasn't your snobbery! Anyway, I hope this guy isn't your friend anymore!!!  :lol:
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JohnR on 8 Jan 2018, 03:13 pm
The notion that we're not living in the most golden of ages, in which the sheer panoply of music and art and all kinds of great stuff - from today AND from the past - isn't happening is completely silly. Know what I'm saying?

I do. I can't help working through old stuff on Tidal. I mean it's right there. Right now Speaking in Tongues. It scares when I look at the release date and see almost 35 years ago. Stuff I couldn't afford to buy when it was current. Now I've got it all.

OK not all. But a lot. Even the Beatles.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JohnR on 8 Jan 2018, 03:58 pm
OK I'm listening to Sgt Peppers on Tidal....

......

What did I miss? Is this seriously the benchmark the guy in the video is talking about?
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 8 Jan 2018, 07:08 pm
OK I'm listening to Sgt Peppers on Tidal....

......

What did I miss? Is this seriously the benchmark the guy in the video is talking about?

With respect to timbre, I think he's speaking in terms of the music - not the recording.

He goes on to say that the vast majority of "pop" music of today merely consists of nothing more than electronic keyboards, drum machines, sampling and software.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: twitch54 on 8 Jan 2018, 07:10 pm
Are you saying audiophiles are not music lovers?   What is your concept of an audiophile?   NuPrime makes audiophile equipment. 


:scratch:   Did you watch the video????????

No, I'm just tired of stupid 'gear-o-philes' that are more interested in their flavor of the month.

Sorry, this is not a rant against you but I see way too many individuals that fit the description !
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: montesquieu on 15 Jan 2018, 10:59 pm
Great thread. Who remembers these days?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoPXQ9fotZM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoPXQ9fotZM)
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 15 Jan 2018, 11:27 pm
Because audiophiles have remained stagnant while the world has changed.
To be an audiophile is necessary an amount of audio equip knowledge not to mention electronics and music, current generation have none of this, most of today adult think MP3 is hi-fi since it is digital music in a fantastic phone in a fantastic ear-bud.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Eduardo AAVM on 16 Jan 2018, 01:16 am

Stagnant?   How old are you?   You must be quite young to say that.

We have great advances in audio today, even in average equipment, because of what audiophiles were demanding years ago...   
From amplification, to speakers, to improved interconnects and cables.

I have more or less the same thought, classic hard line audiophiles consume themselves into extinction, they are not open to grow, expand or to explore new paths, not very oftem, they are very attached to tradition depending the generation they belong. Big bulky, exotic CNC cases and nonsense characteristics are still very important for them.

I am 45, been somehow into audio Hi-Fi since I was 13 or so, 90s were great but many things have changed atop of them I consider enviromental and efficiency issues, raw material availability.

That's what I love of NuPrime and value oriented companies, for me they are the present and future of Hi-Fi/high end audio.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Jan 2018, 01:57 am
That's what I love of NuPrime and value oriented companies, for me they are the present and future of Hi-Fi/high end audio.
Unfortunately I like tube amps, which is destined to become the golden egg hen of manufacturers and dealers in view of various current audio tubes manufacturers made a agreement to standardize audio tubes time life in 1000 hours only.

So Class D may be the only way viable to the average budged audiohile to get some decent music in home.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Jan 2018, 02:45 am
Maybe we are dying off? 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Jazzman53 on 16 Jan 2018, 02:47 am
Maybe we are dying off?

I'm afraid you're right about that.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 16 Jan 2018, 01:01 pm
Why? 

- We're snobbish in so many ways (budget, musical genre, brands, source formats)

- We're not open minded

- We're old and live in the past

- We hold on to old, fussy technologies that few under age 50 relate to (vinyl, tubes, separates)
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 16 Jan 2018, 05:30 pm
Why? 

- We're snobbish in so many ways (budget, musical genre, brands, source formats)

- We're not open minded

- We're old and live in the past

- We hold on to old, fussy technologies that few under age 50 relate to (vinyl, tubes, separates)

That may be true for some.  But those are really sheep audiophiles.  They do not think for themselves. 

That kind has conformed to a cult of thinking and became closed and locked in time .  A true audiophile is open minded and seeking even better than before. Many younger anti-audiophiles are just as closed minded and resentfully reactionary. 

Its become a battle like Muslims fighting Catholics.  Both are wrong... but both swear they are right.  A true audiophile takes long quiet walks into the audio field and pastures ... and remains open and and seeks for what is growing in the wild.  For in every generation we find brilliant designers and engineers who have been born amongst us.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 16 Jan 2018, 06:12 pm
I think another reasons is most people aren’t inclined to simply sit in a chair and do nothing else but listen to music no matter how high the fidelity. The bulk of my listening is casual and background. Casual meaning I’m sitting in the sweet spot but preoccupied with something else, while background meaning I am away from the sweet spot. There’s little merit to having a high performance system if that’s the only way one listens to music, but I also feel the the state of today’s pop music has contributed to the lack of interest in this hobby.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: bladesmith on 16 Jan 2018, 06:49 pm
That might be the million dollar question.
I remember when a sit down meal was a family ritual. Now, its all a fast food lifestyle, these days.
Its not about quality, its about quantity these days.
So many distractions in life, so much complication.

 :scratch: 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: stlrman on 16 Jan 2018, 07:16 pm
I am going to agree with Windchaser. I sold my Vapor Audio Breeze because I could not sit in the sweet spot and listen to a whole album. I moved into home theater which I am delighted with. A 120 inch screen , Cheap Andrew Jones floor standers, a nice 10 inch Polk sub, and my wife , daughter are in heaven watching movies and Nelflix!!  Sure I'd like to own a nice 12 inch, but we are getting plenty of bass!

Also I think very good sound can be had with cheaper headphones these days. Maybe not amazing sound , but very good . I went from $ 1,000 iem's to $20 Avio headphones. I was thrilled with Avio sound!
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 16 Jan 2018, 07:45 pm



It all goes hand in hand with the "quality of life."   When a culture becomes dulled down, there goes the quality of the finer things in life.  Communication overload dulls us down.  Just like trying to eat a full box of candies makes our taste buds go blank after having too much.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Jan 2018, 08:09 pm


It all goes hand in hand with the "quality of life."   When a culture becomes dulled down, there goes the quality of the finer things in life.  Communication overload dulls us down.  Just like trying to eat a full box of candies makes our taste buds go blank after having too much.
Correct, so usually audiophiles are urban people that are up to here w/the overloading silly news and news manipulations every day if you can sense the thread of the skein.

Being open mind implies being mind corrupted or at least enduring that process.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: simoon on 16 Jan 2018, 11:08 pm
less audiophiles hopefully means more music lovers .......... not a bad thing IMO

False dichotomy.

I believe that the vast majority of audiophiles are music lovers.

Most audiophiles I talk to (I belong to the Los Angeles, Orange County Audio Society, the largest such group in the world) state that they are into audio mainly because it allows them to get closer to the music.

But here's the rub. Even for those minority of audiophiles that are into the equipment more than the music, I am not sure what the big deal is. If it brings them joy, isn't that enough?

I am a music first audiophile. But on certain days, I can enjoy the hell out of just listening to the equipment. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.
 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: simoon on 16 Jan 2018, 11:39 pm
Maybe we are dying off?


Some of the posts on this thread seem to be real USA centric.

I've watched many videos on YT of reports of audiophile shows in Munich, Warsaw, Tokyo, Hong Kong, and other European and Asian locations, and the people attending have a decidedly different look than in the US.

You see many more late 20's and early 30's people walking around. Many more complete families, or at least husbands and wifes.

The percentage of 50 year old +, males, listening to the "audiophile approved" female vocal recordings, are visibly lower than US audio shows.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 19 Jan 2018, 08:08 pm
Wow, I will add my 2cents.
This is a topic we manufacturers most concern with. 
Audiophiles/music lovers who are in their 50s are enjoying their audio hobby as high-end components are getting cheaper and better. Internet allows them to find a lot of good non pop musics. Those who are older are downsizing with all-in-one integrated amp.
These customers are keeping the few high-end manufacturers on "life support".  I kid you not.
Just look at the industry. Most audio brands have been bought and consolidated.  And if they are still around, just a shadow of their former self. How many high-end audio companies are truly investing in R&D instead of just packaging or customising off-the-shelf stuff?

I think the problems that drive high-end audio to the ground (lets be honest, high-end audio has been on life support for several years already) are well understood. There are enough blames to go around - greedy manufacturers and dealers, the trend, lots of expensive gadgets (my family spent thousands of $ on phones and tablets) to take your time away, easier to travel,  the music industry, lifestyle change (do families still gather in the living room after dinner?), and so on.

At some point a vicious cycle started to spiral out of control.  And here we are.
NuPrime is probably one of the last few (may be the only one left) high-end manufacturers still working on fundamental amplifier R&D (by the way, we just achieve a breakthrough but that's not the point here), and we have some tough decision to make. Do we just give up and focus on making premium < $1000 all-in-one and just go with the flow, until we get put out of our misery by some premium Amazon or Apple speaker, or we find a way out ?

We reached the following observations:
In some part of the world (Asia, Europe), high-end audio is down but not out. Younger consumers don't want to pay for insane prices but are starting to look for good sounding stereo components.  As the Millennials get older and into their 40s, their lifestyle will change, and some will start to pay attention to audio (again).  We are seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel, and this is what gives us hope.
But a lot of work lies ahead.
We have to spend a lot more effort on educating consumers about audio.
We have to continue to innovate and make our products even more affordable.
We are a tiny company. All we need is a small slice of a small premium audio market and we will be doing just fine.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rollo on 19 Jan 2018, 08:30 pm
  Somewhat of a decline however nothing to dwell on. Exposure to product is what is needed. look at LP and TT sales. Ya see one in lots of TV commercials and movies now.
  In most Schools Music Appreciation class has been eliminated. That does not help. Music therapy is huge right now. Music for healing is getting more popular as well.
Financing of expensive systems should be made more available at a fair rate. Bring back Brand Stores. Hey I could see a Nuforce store.



charles
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 19 Jan 2018, 08:34 pm
There is no way high-end business can support a store. The economic is just not there.
That's why most high-end audio retail store are out of business.  There is no going back.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: twitch54 on 19 Jan 2018, 08:50 pm

I believe that the vast majority of audiophiles are music lovers.

to that I agree

Quote
Even for those minority of audiophiles that are into the equipment more than the music, I am not sure what the big deal is. If it brings them joy, isn't that enough?

sure, if it brings them joy, great ! But here's the other angle........the majority of the audio forums are there for discussion about equipment (all well and good) I merely point that out for there many folks that get more obsessed with the equipment discussion themselves than the joy said equipment can bring into ones music.

Quote
I am a music first audiophile. But on certain days, I can enjoy the hell out of just listening to the equipment. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

I get your point !

For the record, I'm a 64 year old 'music first audiophile' myself, I've done my job for my 39 year old son is one as well......nuff said !
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: milford3 on 19 Jan 2018, 08:57 pm
Another BIG reason why retail high end audio retail stores are out of the loop is the internet.  Just visit the web site, order, and it's shipped to your front door.  The buyer just needs to do a little of home work.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 19 Jan 2018, 09:02 pm
Wow, I will add my 2cents.
This is a topic we manufacturers most concern with. 
Audiophiles/music lovers who are in their 50s are enjoying their audio hobby as high-end components are getting cheaper and better. Internet allows them to find a lot of good non pop musics. Those who are older are downsizing with all-in-one integrated amp.
These customers are keeping the few high-end manufacturers on "life support".  I kid you not.
Just look at the industry. Most audio brands have been bought and consolidated.  And if they are still around, just a shadow of their former self. How many high-end audio companies are truly investing in R&D instead of just packaging or customising off-the-shelf stuff?

I think the problems that drive high-end audio to the ground (lets be honest, high-end audio has been on life support for several years already) are well understood. There are enough blames to go around - greedy manufacturers and dealers, the trend, lots of expensive gadgets (my family spent thousands of $ on phones and tablets) to take your time away, easier to travel,  the music industry, lifestyle change (do families still gather in the living room after dinner?), and so on.

At some point a vicious cycle started to spiral out of control.  And here we are.
NuPrime is probably one of the last few (may be the only one left) high-end manufacturers still working on fundamental amplifier R&D (by the way, we just achieve a breakthrough but that's not the point here), and we have some tough decision to make. Do we just give up and focus on making premium < $1000 all-in-one and just go with the flow, until we get put out of our misery by some premium Amazon or Apple speaker, or we find a way out ?

We reached the following observations:
In some part of the world (Asia, Europe), high-end audio is down but not out. Younger consumers don't want to pay for insane prices but are starting to look for good sounding stereo components.  As the Millennials get older and into their 40s, their lifestyle will change, and some will start to pay attention to audio (again).  We are seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel, and this is what gives us hope.
But a lot of work lies ahead.
We have to spend a lot more effort on educating consumers about audio.
We have to continue to innovate and make our products even more affordable.
We are a tiny company. All we need is a small slice of a small premium audio market and we will be doing just fine.


Very interesting observations.  There is much validity in your points.


I think Devialet is one company that continues to push the envelope with R&D and product innovation.  There is no other product quite like the Expert/Expert Pro all in one units. Granted, you pay for this innovation, but the used market for their gear is more affordable from a high end aspect.


Mcintosh is another high end company that has managed to survive (despite some missteps in the past). 


The high end is a niche market, and will continue to be.  To me, the most reasonable means to get high end sound is to get a upscale portable Digital Audio Player (DAP), and a good pair of phones to go with the player.  The better Astell&Kern units can also act as a music server for home audio, as well as a excellent portable stereo device.


There used to be many more hobbyists in audio, in that there were more people who would build their own gear either from scratch or from kits.  Some of my most enjoyable listening still comes from homemade custom tube amps.  That just doesn't happen near as much today.   
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 19 Jan 2018, 09:07 pm
Another BIG reason why retail high end audio retail stores are out of the loop is the internet.  Just visit the web site, order, and it's shipped to your front door.  The buyer just needs to do a little of home work.


All true.  The internet has changed the business model dramatically.  The one big limitation on the internet is that one can't hear the prospective purchase over the net.  That requires an in person audition.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 19 Jan 2018, 09:10 pm
Mcintosh was sold. Devialet is funded by a billionaire and I doubt they will ever get a return on investment. My comment is on the economics of this business not about their sound quality.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Jan 2018, 09:17 pm
Exposure to product is what is needed.

That might be part of the problem. Too many people who are not into this hobby have been exposed to nothing more than expensive mediocrity due to a proud owner of some very nice gear so poorly set up it fails to make a positive impression.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 19 Jan 2018, 09:24 pm
Mcintosh was sold. Devialet is funded by a billionaire and I doubt they will ever get a return on investment. My comment is on the economics of this business not about their sound quality.


No doubt the economics is a tough road to hoe.   The point I was trying to make is that the high end market will survive in some form, as there will still be a market (however it evolves). 


One could argue that the market always will have upheaval.  What happened to the higher end market during the golden age (Fisher, H.H. Scott, Leak), or the likes of Dynaco, which upper mid fi for the masses?


Personally, I'm just happy that products like Devialet exist in the market today, as they provide a benchmark for others to provide comparison.     
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 19 Jan 2018, 10:00 pm
Personally, I'm just happy that products like Devialet exist in the market today, as they provide a benchmark for others to provide comparison.   

Normally I don't challenge such a statement but you are in Nuprime circle, so I beg to differ. Devialet is an engineering marvel (I bet everyone loves to see the woofer moves), but as far as a great amp is concerned, it is not.  It is still playing catch up. I have customers who wrote to me that they sold their $4000 Devialet after discovering NuPrime amp. But if you are referring to engineering (hardware, software, system, industrial design) achievement as a benchmark, that I totally agree. And they have a complete system where you can pair and group speakers. It takes hundreds of engineers and in excess of $100M to create this.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 19 Jan 2018, 11:33 pm
I was referring to the engineering achievement of creating a complete package in their enclosures.  I was not referring to which particular unit has better sound.  Keep in mind that replacing a Devialet requires a a preamp/power amp/DAC combination, not just a amp. 


Nuprime does indeed have a excellent reputation for providing gear with great sound quality.  I have no doubt your latest mono amp sounds outstanding, and I'm always game to listen to excellent equipment.   
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 20 Jan 2018, 12:25 am
I was referring to the engineering achievement of creating a complete package in their enclosures.  I was not referring to which particular unit has better sound.  Keep in mind that replacing a Devialet requires a a preamp/power amp/DAC combination, not just a amp. 


Nuprime does indeed have a excellent reputation for providing gear with great sound quality.  I have no doubt your latest mono amp sounds outstanding, and I'm always game to listen to excellent equipment.
The STA-6 seems suited to a fullrange driver or two-way OB, the site feature says:
STA-6 is designed with enhanced even-order harmonic circuitry that produces sonic characteristic similar to NuPrime STA-9, but leaning toward neutral with a slight hint of warmth
Question:
The STA-6 have the same even-order harmonic circuitry from the STA-9 circuit or a different?
In view of the current tube prices and related short time life this circuit is a very interesting option.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 20 Jan 2018, 01:45 am
Normally I don't challenge such a statement but you are in Nuprime circle, so I beg to differ. Devialet is an engineering marvel (I bet everyone loves to see the woofer moves), but as far as a great amp is concerned, it is not.  It is still playing catch up. I have customers who wrote to me that they sold their $4000 Devialet after discovering NuPrime amp.

The ST-10 has set a standard.   It is everything I ever wished my past tube amps to be.  They never could achieve what the ST-10 produces.    One of them was a McIntosh MC275.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 20 Jan 2018, 01:51 am
Why? 

- We're snobbish in so many ways (budget, musical genre, brands, source formats)

- We're not open minded

- We're old and live in the past

- We hold on to old, fussy technologies that few under age 50 relate to (vinyl, tubes, separates)


Technically..   Classical music lovers live in the past, well beyond their own past.   

Quality music tends to make you into a fan no matter what era its came from. The more open minded and the more mature someone becomes,  the more he can welcome various types of music that was not simply geared for his time of adolescent hormonal blossoming. 
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Elizabeth on 20 Jan 2018, 03:05 am
I enjoyed Classical music since a teen. But it took me until I turned 40 to begin to enjoy Jazz.
When I was young I just did not like Jazz, it made me feel annoyed and frazzled. The best I could do was Brubeck, Time Out.
A while after Ken Burns Jazz came out I watched it on DVD. Suddenly I 'discovered; what Jazz was about'. and started to listen to it all the time.

So I can relate to the 'not being mature enough' comment.
I did not like Jazz mainly due to not having a clue as to what it was about. Once it became clear what was going on, how it worked... I am sad I left it out of my life all those years.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 20 Jan 2018, 12:01 pm
One of the challenges I see for audio manufacturers is to provide a truly user friendly computer source for typical audiophiles, who are approaching or at retirement age.  Something high-end that doesn't require working in IT.  Far to few IT folks have sensitivity to this.  This has the potential to reach a huge market but so far no audio solution is available to compete with price/ease of use with say Netflix.

I'm still waiting for the technology to mature.  We're about 110 years behind the automobile.  The earliest cars were hardly driver friendly, they were barely reliable, and almost no roads outside of cities existed that could be easily traversed.  Even the basic technology hadn't been settled upon.  We are at a similar stage of development for computers in general.  We still require typing skills to operate.  Computers crash all the time for unknown reasons.  The internet is a hodge-podge.  Our software changes monthly.

Vinyl fans live in their own world as they celebrate sales that are increasing from microscopic market share to slightly larger microscopic market share.  That's not the future.  The vast majority want convenience and immediate gratification before quality.  Herein lays one the challenge for attracting the younger market - most audiophile gear is neither convenient (learning curve) or inexpensive enough to allow for immediate purchase.  Most of the world perceives audio as a commodity where quality means nothing.  To them good enough is indeed good enough.  Yet audio manufacturers focus all their attention on marketing $$$$$ gear to a tiny percentage of the population - an obvious strategy perfectly suited for dinosaurs.

Our Cheap and Cheerful, and Headphone circles are on the right track for reaching future audiophiles.  Compromised sound, yes.  But within immediate reach, fits into modern lifestyles, and usually simple enough to be accessible to all.  The small NuPrime integrated amps make for a great next step when coupled with affordable monitors, laptop, and subscription service like Tidal.  Integrating into the TV would be another gateway, perhaps supporting a 2.1 system.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: mav52 on 20 Jan 2018, 01:05 pm
Whats happens. life happens. things change the young crowd is driven by mobility not setting in a single spot listening to music.  Their smart phones have the capability to provide them music anywhere they want either via ear buds or a simple plug into a USB port in their car or on their TV to a AVR.  The future is the young crowd and right now they cannot set still without their smartphone up in front of their face.  case in point, we were at the movies and looking around people had their faces stuck to their smart phone texting, playing games.   The culture is moving in another direction and its taking High End Audio with it and its driven by mobility.  IN the many years of CES the "audio side with its high price show items, has pretty much died while the mobility side is improving year after year.  Smart this and that, voice recognition in so many product offerings running your life is shown and that is the direction the industries are going.  Cranking out $50k speakers and amps ain't going to cut it for the young crowd.  Sure headphones will work for some, if they can put down their smartphone long enough to listen to music LOL.   The old Audiophile guard is dying, hell I'm 65 and my gear I guess will be sold off as my kids or grandkids are not interested, but they will take my OLED TV and ipads and cars in a heart beat.

Technology is already here to support mobility
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: geowak on 20 Jan 2018, 01:30 pm
All good points, from what I read. As much as I like audio and enjoy listening to quality hi-fi, it is in the end just some insanely priced box of wires (out of reach for the average reasonable consumer) to buy. To me, the comments about audio priced for the young crowd and budget minded are keeping it going along with the rich or semi-rich who have $100k invested in their system. Mags like The Absolute Sound and Stereophile really drive home that point. I have seen some UK mags and the prices are more down to earth but not by much. The IPOD made the audio world change because it was mobile and affordable.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Elizabeth on 20 Jan 2018, 01:44 pm
When I was young, Every kid listened to AM radio. In the car, and at home.
Audiophiles only existed as rare animals.
Now the kids have earbuds and a small player or use the computer or their smartphone.
Same difference.
Still audiophiles only exist as rare animals.

Never did audiophiles rule the World. We have always been marginal.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Doublej on 20 Jan 2018, 02:06 pm
One of the challenges I see for audio manufacturers is to provide a truly user friendly computer source for typical audiophiles, who are approaching or at retirement age.  Something high-end that doesn't require working in IT.  Far to few IT folks have sensitivity to this.  This has the potential to reach a huge market but so far no audio solution is available to compete with price/ease of use with say Netflix.


If someone asked me for a computer friendly source I would tell them to get a Spotify Premium account at $10/month. If they were of retirement age I would also tell them to check out Concert Vault for live content that might interest them, $4/month.

Seems pretty easy to me.

What I am missing?
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: S Clark on 20 Jan 2018, 02:50 pm
When I was young, Every kid listened to AM radio. In the car, and at home.
Audiophiles only existed as rare animals.
Now the kids have earbuds and a small player or use the computer or their smartphone.
Same difference.
Still audiophiles only exist as rare animals.

Never did audiophiles rule the World. We have always been marginal.
Well said Elizabeth.
For the vast majority, a high end system was a Pioneer receiver and a Dual turntable.  When I moved up to a Teac RTR and Advent speakers, that was as good as it was going to get for a young married guy.  I didn't even know anyone with separates. 
Audiophiles have always been <.01% of the listening public.  I doubt if our numbers have significantly changed.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: kaka89 on 20 Jan 2018, 03:16 pm
I'm a 28-year-old dude who just joined this club last year. I can share some of the difficulties when I started this hobby.

#1 Space:
Space probably is the most expensive thing of being an audiophile in a big city like Hong Kong. My listening area, living room, is about 10 x 15 ft, probably worth 230K USD already. It is a luxury to have room to put a pair of speakers.
As you all know, room acoustic is one of the most important performance factors. And the market is really lacking solutions that can help overcome this room acoustic problem. (Dirac Live + MiniDsp is probably the only one)

#2 Store:
In general, it is very difficult to find a place that allow you to listen to the gadget you want, and compare it with others. And without enough comparison, you cannot truly be into this hobby, and find the sound signature that you are looking for.
One of the fun parts of HIFI is to continuously improve the sound. If you never heard a better sound, the systems will be just one of the many gadgets in one's home.

Head-fi is doing a much better job in the above aspects, and this is the reason why headphone is selling extremely well in my city. Everyone is talking about it.

Lastly, I think streaming service is a great area of opportunity. A newcomer like me don't have a music library with, and Spotify and Tidal is a great start for us. We have instant access to millions of song, allow us to explore different music with no cost.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: roscoe65 on 20 Jan 2018, 03:26 pm
I am in agreement.  There was a momentary period of the Gold Age of Hifi in the 1950’s and 1960’s before television took over as the principal home entertainment device.  In those early days, radio was the most important source of media, and consumer bought radios and later receivers (and if they had more money, tuners).  This really persisted until the 1980’s when HT took over (and MTV took on the role of enabling music discovery).  As radio faded as the principal source of home entertainment, so did hifi.  At the same time, the quality of radio (and recording in general) took a nose dive.

For the majority of people, the only exposure they have to high end audio is in the local Magnolia section of Best Buy.  The days of spending Saturday’s wasting time at the local audio store are gone.  If I were entering the hobby today and was confronted with this I would likely stop at home theater.

However, while conventional audiophiles are dying on the vine, there has been an absolute explosion in headphone listening.  Today’s young listener receives his media from streaming (or piracy).  He has been watching “TV” and listening to music with headphones on his laptop or phone.  He didn’t have a TV in his room growing up and likely now is in college or sharing space with roommates.  Listening as an audiophile has always been a pretty solo thing, and headphones are a natural fit.

Young listeners today balk at spending more than $300 for desktop speakers, but will spend $3,000 for a headphone rig.

EDIT:  I wrote this post before the previous one was posted.  However, I am just as much in agreement with our friend from Hong Kong.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: dB Cooper on 20 Jan 2018, 04:48 pm
Would anyone happen to have a link to the research referenced in the video? (I could only get 4 minutes into it before deciding it's basically schlock reporting.)

Here's what I was able to find: https://helix.northwestern.edu/blog/2012/08/science-agrees-pop-music-really-does-sound-same

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: SteveFord on 20 Jan 2018, 05:02 pm
The times have changed since I was a kid in the 70s.  The record stores would have a stereo section and maybe even a head shop.  The owners were into it and you could hear all sorts of things you couldn't afford for yourself.

Recently this one woman listened to my stereo and her jaw dropped.
She said where could someone go to find stuff like this and my answer was you can't as there's no place that carries all of the stuff that I have.  The closest place would be maybe around Baltimore which is 50 miles away but in order to source all of the different components to put it together you'd be running all over the country.
That's what make sites like this so great - you find someone whose ears you trust and take it from there.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: simoon on 20 Jan 2018, 11:45 pm

Technically..   Classical music lovers live in the past, well beyond their own past.   

This is not true, for me anyways.

I listen to almost exclusively classical music composed in the mid to late 20th century, and contemporary (21st century) periods, and a little early 20th century. So, most of the classical I listen to, the composers are probably still alive.

I do not listen to anything composed earlies than about 1920.  Music from all earlier periods does nothing for me.

For me, classical is an evolving art form.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: S Clark on 20 Jan 2018, 11:47 pm
Yeah, I found that comment poorly stated, or poorly informed.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: simoon on 20 Jan 2018, 11:53 pm
The times have changed since I was a kid in the 70s.  The record stores would have a stereo section and maybe even a head shop.  The owners were into it and you could hear all sorts of things you couldn't afford for yourself.

Recently this one woman listened to my stereo and her jaw dropped.
She said where could someone go to find stuff like this and my answer was you can't as there's no place that carries all of the stuff that I have.  The closest place would be maybe around Baltimore which is 50 miles away but in order to source all of the different components to put it together you'd be running all over the country.
That's what make sites like this so great - you find someone whose ears you trust and take it from there.


Almost everytime one of my girlfriends son's friends hears my system, they comment on how incredible it sounds. They are able to easily tell the  difference between what they hear on their portable audio, and a real system. What we can hope for, is that the experience of hearing a real system sticks with them, and they get into the hobby in the future.

I guess we are a bit lucky here in LA. There are a few good brick and mortar high end shops still around. A few are pretty recent.

It looks like many people are using regional audio shows (RMAF, THE Show, AXPONA, Munich, etc) as substitutes for brick and mortar stores. They do their auditioning and shopping at the shows.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JerryM on 21 Jan 2018, 12:15 am
The problem here in my part of So Cal is that it's really difficult to become an audiophile now. When I was an up and coming teenager, there was Pacific Stereo and Federated (remember the 'Fred Rated' commercials?) along with Radio Shack. It was easy to put together a great system for whatever your budget happened to be. Hell, I still have a pair or RS Mach IIs up in the attic.

Now, there are no 'stereo-centric' stores like that. Most of the prices we audiophiles play with are simply beyond a young person's means. Then when they do want to jump in, they want Bose.   :duh:
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 21 Jan 2018, 01:09 am
Recently this one woman listened to my stereo and her jaw dropped.

Ideally, that is what should happen anytime an outsider is exposed to our hobby.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 21 Jan 2018, 01:29 am
Well said Elizabeth.
For the vast majority, a high end system was a Pioneer receiver and a Dual turntable.  When I moved up to a Teac RTR and Advent speakers, that was as good as it was going to get for a young married guy.  I didn't even know anyone with separates. 
Audiophiles have always been <.01% of the listening public.  I doubt if our numbers have significantly changed.


I don't know if you're old enough to remember....back in those days I used to sell Pioneer.  Where I worked we sold Pioneer, Sansui, Hitachi, Kenwood, etc.  Those were very good.  Teac was definitely high end for reel to reel.  Yamaha receivers were semi high end.  Yamaha sat between them and the high end.  Luxman was high end back then.  Bang and Olufsen was high end as well.  McIntosh was ultra high end.

That time was an era of many happy listeners who were just beginning to learn about audio truths.  Truths that later evolved and led us to what we now see in high end today.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Doublej on 21 Jan 2018, 01:34 am
The problem here in my part of So Cal is that it's really difficult to become an audiophile now. When I was an up and coming teenager, there was Pacific Stereo and Federated (remember the 'Fred Rated' commercials?) along with Radio Shack. It was easy to put together a great system for whatever your budget happened to be. Hell, I still have a pair or RS Mach IIs up in the attic.

Now, there are no 'stereo-centric' stores like that. Most of the prices we audiophiles play with are simply beyond a young person's means. Then when they do want to jump in, they want Bose.   :duh:

If you are willing to drive an hourish there's Upscale Audio.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 21 Jan 2018, 01:36 am
Recently this one woman listened to my stereo and her jaw dropped.
She said where could someone go to find stuff like this and my answer was you can't as there's no place that carries all of the stuff that I have. 
In the TV area this solution is ready and very cheap, any 32'' Led TV is cheap and offer good image at an remote control click.
This give an idea of how much backward audiophilia is.
Ideally, that is what should happen anytime an outsider is exposed to our hobby.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JerryM on 21 Jan 2018, 01:48 am
If you are willing to drive an hourish there's Upscale Audio.

Oh yeah, Uncle Kevvy is great. I have a lifetime supply of NOS Telefunkens from Upscale.  8)
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: JLM on 21 Jan 2018, 11:33 am
The problem here in my part of So Cal is that it's really difficult to become an audiophile now. When I was an up and coming teenager, there was Pacific Stereo and Federated (remember the 'Fred Rated' commercials?) along with Radio Shack. It was easy to put together a great system for whatever your budget happened to be. Hell, I still have a pair or RS Mach IIs up in the attic.

Now, there are no 'stereo-centric' stores like that. Most of the prices we audiophiles play with are simply beyond a young person's means. Then when they do want to jump in, they want Bose.   :duh:

If you think Southern California is lacking in audio shops come to the center of the country.   :( :roll: :oops:

One audio shop within 60 miles of me (mostly A/V).  No one there has ever attended an audio show, the only sources are CDP and DVD players, their best brand of speakers are Paradigm.  It's been years since I bothered stopping in (while in the area).  Asked them if they'd ever heard a stand alone DAC, a chip amp, or CD quality internet streaming.  Their answer was no, and at that point I gave up on them.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: bacobits1 on 21 Jan 2018, 12:20 pm
My area is not so great either. I joke every time I go in and see the offerings. Nothing for the average shmo. No returns on ordered items no discounts. Nice!
B&M is dead. There is no attraction to go in any of these places. If you have a large pocket of money....
You don't have the brains to choose wisely. It's a "here's 20 k set me up situation". Who the hell is buying 5 k power conditioners?
The key word is dollars newbies won't or don't have the $$ for this?
We're getting old and leaving this Earth. :lol:
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Freo-1 on 21 Jan 2018, 03:58 pm
This area of the country has a fair number of shops within 2 hours of driving to evaluate systems/equipment.  While that is somewhat helpful, it's still not the same as auditioning in your own home listening space. 


Reviews of components are a mixed bag at best.  It seems like almost all the reviews are positive overall, which really isn't helpful.  If the review contains measurements, and you have enough of a background to work out what the measurements are showing, that is more useful.


So, most of us either go on instinct, or will make decisions on equipment purchases based on what we have already been exposed to. 


To me, the best way to spread the word about high quality sound reproduction is to demonstrate our systems to our friends when they stop by to visit.   
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 21 Jan 2018, 06:19 pm
Genez, thanks for starting this conversation. I will like to address what we can do as a manufacturer to survive is this age and help new audiophiles discover and enjoy this hobby.
First and foremost, to provide as much information as possible for consumer to make an informed decision or become curious enough to explore further:
- link to online forum audiocircle.com
- provide customer written blogs (we have a program asking people to write an article and offer gift as reward)
   http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/customers-blog/
- provide information about how we design our products (we are not a box maker, you get original R&D here). 
- provide information about audio basics.  How to appreciate better sound, how-to guides.
- advertise on social media like Facebook (we need to do a better job of getting in front of new music lovers to tell them there is better equipment and how to get them).

And most importantly, develop affordable products. 

In some countries (especially France where we have a good following), there are still a lot of young people interested in 2 channel audio and looking for better sound.  But the price for a good system has to be under $1000.  I think this is the entry point for this hobby. Once it becomes a hobby, people will continue to upgrade and expand their systems.
Manufacturers such as NuPrime are already offering high-end audio at very affordable price. As time has changed, we need to adapt and get in front of new potential customers.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: simoon on 21 Jan 2018, 06:48 pm
The problem here in my part of So Cal is that it's really difficult to become an audiophile now. When I was an up and coming teenager, there was Pacific Stereo and Federated (remember the 'Fred Rated' commercials?) along with Radio Shack. It was easy to put together a great system for whatever your budget happened to be. Hell, I still have a pair or RS Mach IIs up in the attic.

Not sure where you live in So Cal, but there are several good shops in the area.


Brian Berdan's shop in Pasadena, Audio Element has systems starting at under $1000 and going up to the extreme high end.

Ahead Stereo on Beverly has a fair amount of lower priced and mid fi.

Shelley Stereo in the Valley caries a pretty wide range of equipment.

The Source in Torrance has a very large store, with many showrooms.

There's also: Audio High on La Brea, Venice Audio, Monaco in Pasadena, Evolution Audio in Agoura, Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica, Audiophile Zone in Vista del Mar, Weinert Design in Los Angeles, Speaker City in Burbank, Brooks Berdan in Monrovia, and others.

Like I said ini my previous post, Los Angeles has a fair amount of brick and mortars.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 21 Jan 2018, 07:00 pm
But they don't carry NuPrime (this is NuPrime circle so I have to point out).
Summit Audio (John Casler contact is listed on our website).
We selling high-end products at mid-fi price, so a lot of dealers don't want to carry them.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: bacobits1 on 21 Jan 2018, 07:09 pm
Of course these places go after high margin sales. NO doubt NuPrime makes nice stuff, but never heard any products.
I like the form factor too! I do think you are better off with direct sales model the products will speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: 2bigears on 21 Jan 2018, 07:10 pm
 :D Answer is simply:  why do we see more homeless people. Why is it that a 500 dollar blip in a home budget would send 50% scrambling ,,,,  Jim Morrison ,, This Is The End ,,,,, ha.   Listen and learn.   :D
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 21 Jan 2018, 07:51 pm
When a culture has a majority of happy invigorated people, a good audio system is simply a basic need in life for every household.

When a culture has been victimized by a manipulative agenda of elitists over a period of generations? ..  The people lose their sense of vigor and happiness.    Audio is no longer a basic accepted norm and need.  It then becomes therapeutic as a means to cope. When a people are happy many will seek. When a people are suffering the consequences of bad choices made over the years by those in charge?.. What's there if be enthusiastic about?

When people used to laugh and clap their hands without the need of LAUGH machines.... or canned laughter in entertainment?  Audio was a hot item.  When society followed wrong ways that only made the narcissists happy and everyone else to suffer?  Audio became a castle to hide oneself in as a means for escaping the world around them, rather than celebrating the world around them.   

That is why happy songs with funny clever lyrics we don't hear hardly anymore.  Romance in songs or melody has been hidden away in some dark sanitarium.  Why instrumental music that once made your foot tap and bring a smile to the face is not being recorded today.... And,  why audio has been taken over by a tyrannical darkened recording industry that will not give us recordings that showcase the joys of experiencing the room in which the music was performed by musicians playing together.   Today,  musicians may be thousands of miles away and adding their part to a track without having a live interchange with the other performers.  Progress?  I don't think so. 

So, who wants a more accurate system for hearing bad news?  If a majority musicians could begin to fly right and would recapture the zest for life other generations once knew? The demand for truly better sounding equipment would have more of a demand.  Instrument tone?  A happy sounding melody?   Clever, joy inducing, rhythms that are not drug induced?   Can't move a depressed people with that kind of sound unless they can identify with it.  Its been gone for some time now.

The world is a mess today , but its always been.  But never to this extreme. .  Its one reason why I believe vinyl records are having a comeback to time travel to a time before the world got so dragged down to the level we find ourselves today.   Digital can be superior.  But without superior quality musicianship?  Its being wasted upon a world digging itself down in dissipation from mental abuse.

I was a musician who could have made a very good living playing professionally.  I quite cold turkey in the late 60's because I had eyes to see where the industry was heading.   I had relatives embedded in the music industry and could have found connections. I rejected it with deep sadness. It let to depression for years.  But, I knew I wanted to keep my sanity.   I knew it had to be done, or most likely I would not be alive today to post here.

What good is high end audio if their are not people being high on life?  Too many audiophiles have become neurotic obsessive, in their desire to find a hiding place to feel happy and enthusiastic once more.   As long as the majority of conformists conform to the lifestyles the media keeps fostering upon us, we will not be a happy people again...

Clean up the Swamp first..  And then high end audio will follow with a celebratory victory march.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 21 Jan 2018, 08:04 pm
:D Answer is simply:  why do we see more homeless people. Why is it that a 500 dollar blip in a home budget would send 50% scrambling ,,,,  Jim Morrison ,, This Is The End ,,,,, ha.   Listen and learn.   :D

Jim lived to a ripe old age of what?   He was no one to listen to for advice.   Great music... depraved lyrics.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 21 Jan 2018, 08:09 pm
Ordinary people have no culture to sit to listen music or audio equip detailed knowledge, they are totally dominated by TV shows and news, last year a neighbor on my building retired, he had an old CRT TV, the next month he bought a 32 "LED TV, I thought he would buy an air conditioner since his apto gets sun from noon until the night in the summer, its awful hot in summer in his apto. Future of audio is difficult.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: simoon on 23 Jan 2018, 05:58 pm
But they don't carry NuPrime (this is NuPrime circle so I have to point out).
Summit Audio (John Casler contact is listed on our website).
We selling high-end products at mid-fi price, so a lot of dealers don't want to carry them.


But this topic was more about audiophiles in general. Not specifically about NuPrime.

The poster I was responding to, also seemed to be commenting on the lack of brick and mortar stores, in the So Cal area, in general, not specifically where to listen to NuPrime.

Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: rustydoglim on 24 Jan 2018, 07:43 pm
Fair enough.  But I am still the dictator in this little circle.  :lol:
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: 2bigears on 24 Jan 2018, 09:29 pm
 :D a few peeps mentioned to sit and listen with the lights out and eyes closed is just not what people do anymore. They want to be hyper stimulated or simply numbed out with dumb ass tv.   A good set of speakers run 2 grand to ten grand. That's one little piece of the system. Plus the room is the most important part of any system.  A dedicated treated room is a must or just go buy a mini system and be happy.  Simple economics also plays a big big factor.  The middle class is going away fast. The backbone of an economy. This is just a few reasons. Is there even enough good new music to warrant a big investment ? Lord have mercy.   :D
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Elizabeth on 24 Jan 2018, 09:44 pm
I agree that in OTHER COUNTRIES audio is not vanishing. In fact it is growing.
Particularly in China and somewhat in Germany.
So the 'death of the Audiophile' is exclusively an American phenomenon.
Title: Re: Why do we seem to be seeing less audiophiles?
Post by: Genez on 24 Jan 2018, 09:53 pm

But this topic was more about audiophiles in general. Not specifically about NuPrime.

The poster I was responding to, also seemed to be commenting on the lack of brick and mortar stores, in the So Cal area, in general, not specifically where to listen to NuPrime.

This is specifically the NuPrime forum section... Then, may we suggest you start a "Brick and Mortar" forum in Audio Circle?  :D

When I am in forums headed by other brands I find myself leaving certain brand names left out of the conversation.

Audio Advisor carries NuPrime and provides a 30 day trial/return policy.   I have found that a home audition - in your system - is the very best way to hear a component to really know what it offers.  It can sound totally different in the shop.... I know.   I used to work in one.