AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Low Wattage Systems => Topic started by: JoshK on 9 Apr 2012, 05:14 pm

Title: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 9 Apr 2012, 05:14 pm
This is the always asked question when venturing into the low watt class of amplifiers.   So my contribution to this circle is to attempt to summarize some key features for making your speaker/room/amp handjive.


One can get away with surprisingly little watts if the right set of conditions are met.   I long owned a pair of 91db/w 4ohm MTM speakers which are not the easiest load.  I like spectrally dense music in general and I like to play moderately loud, say upper 80dbs on average (not headbanger, but above polite conversation levels). I had a medium sized room for which I sat a normal 2m back.   I had a 10w SEP (single-ended pentode) amp that would hardly ever flinch at this task.   This leads me to my next point:

The recovery time of your amp upon clipping as well as how nice/ugly it clips have a big factor in choosing an amp that does not have a huge power reserve on tap.  If the recovery time of the amp is near instantaneous and the clipping is soft (i.e. compression rather than true wave-form clipping) then it is hardly even noticed.  This drives a lot of what I like about some of the better lower powered amps.

There are lot of folks that believe in huge overkill when it comes to power reserve.  I am not one of them.  If these amps were as good at the one watt level as some of the simple low powered amps then it would be a no-brainer, but for most of us here, we believe that is simply not so. 

Many of this brute amps employ lots of feedback.  Take a look at a typical THD vs power curves for these amps and you'll notice something funny in the (typically) less than 10w range.  THD rises!  Why is that?  Because of the feedback.   Unfortunately this comprises 99% of your listening.  So do I want to trade off the 99% for the 1% crescendo?  Not me.

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: rollo on 9 Apr 2012, 05:44 pm
  Very good info here thanks for sharing and taking the time to do so.


charles
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 9 Apr 2012, 05:46 pm
Its intended as a start.  We can flush out the details with time.  I just foresaw the numerous questions in this regard and pre-empted.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Diamond Dog on 9 Apr 2012, 06:06 pm

There are lot of folks that believe in huge overkill when it comes to power reserve.  I am not one of them.  If these amps were as good at the one watt level as some of the simple low powered amps then it would be a no-brainer, but for most of us here, we believe that is simply not so. 

Many of this brute amps employ lots of feedback.  Take a look at a typical THD vs power curves for these amps and you'll notice something funny in the (typically) less than 10w range.  THD rises!  Why is that?  Because of the feedback.   Unfortunately this comprises 99% of your listening.  So do I want to trade off the 99% for the 1% crescendo?  Not me.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60861)

 :scratch:

D.D.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 9 Apr 2012, 06:18 pm
I do not wish this to denigrate into the typical SS vs Tube war, but what exactly is confusing DD?  Your picture says what I am saying.

What is not pictured in that graph, is although the level of THD is low, the spectral distribution of the THD is undoubtedly comprised of upper harmonics for which our hearing acuity is far greater.

Additionally, crossover distortion which is very hard to measure in those standard methods, has been demonstrated to be audible. 

I am making some broad generalizations which are to be used merely as guides for the novice, not set in stone guidelines for what has to be.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: medium jim on 9 Apr 2012, 08:12 pm
I would love to have my Altec A7's that were something like 102db as I could run SET. 

Jim
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 9 Apr 2012, 08:57 pm
I do not wish this to denigrate into the typical SS vs Tube war, but what exactly is confusing DD?  Your picture says what I am saying.

What is not pictured in that graph, is although the level of THD is low, the spectral distribution of the THD is undoubtedly comprised of upper harmonics for which our hearing acuity is far greater.

Additionally, crossover distortion which is very hard to measure in those standard methods, has been demonstrated to be audible. 

I am making some broad generalizations which are to be used merely as guides for the novice, not set in stone guidelines for what has to be.


Good post!  Thanks, Josh.

I tried to get a discussion about this awhile back with a question:   "Is all wattage created equal?".

The intent of that question was to get into subjects like low wattage amps, class A vs. class AB,  single ended vs. push/pull, etc. and what sonic differences can be picked up.

Some of the distortions heard when listening are not easily measured, but as you state, can be audible.

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: R_burke on 9 Apr 2012, 09:49 pm
I use Manley Mahi monoblocks and they have both Triode and Ultralinear mode which changes the output.  Additionally they have "adjustable" feedback which also changes the output.  The specs also take into consideration the load they are driving

Here are the advertised specifications:

into 5 ohms:   TRIODE   UL
        FB MIN:   18W   20W
        FB STD:   27W   42W
       FB MAX:   28W   46W
into 8 ohms:   TRIODE   UL
       FB MIN:   14W   24W
       FB STD:   24W   40W
       FB MAX:   25W   41W
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: TONEPUB on 9 Apr 2012, 10:11 pm
Single driver speakers work great, the greater the sensitivity the better and I've found the simpler the crossover the better, though
there have always been a few exceptions to the rule...


Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2012, 12:41 am

Good post!  Thanks, Josh.

I tried to get a discussion about this awhile back with a question:   "Is all wattage created equal?".

The intent of that question was to get into subjects like low wattage amps, class A vs. class AB,  single ended vs. push/pull, etc. and what sonic differences can be picked up.

Some of the distortions heard when listening are not easily measured, but as you state, can be audible.



Its a loaded topic.  I was being quite general.  Plenty of exceptions, but the guidelines certainly lead you down the right thought process hopefully. 

Single drivers don't have as many issues with phase angle through the crossover region, which makes them easier in general, but there are exceptions in both camps.  I think part of the issue is the speakers need to be designed with those goals in mind.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: bunky on 10 Apr 2012, 12:53 am
I run a 93.5 db pair of Silverline Sonata Mk III with a 18 watt SET amp and it can play louder than i need it to in my 14' x 25' listening room.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Apr 2012, 01:16 am

  • If you have a pair of speakers in mind and your choosing the amp, the size of room size, your listening volume habits and how demanding is your taste in music all factor into the equation of how few watts can you get away with.  The bigger the room and/or how far away you sit play a big part as loudness decreases with the inverse square, i.e. you need four times the power for equal loudness at 2m as you do at 1m.  If you listen to little girl with a guitar music you will need less power than full scale orchestral, large choral, dense progressive metal, etc. If you like to headbang while listen to music or play at rock concert levels you obviously need more power.

One can get away with surprisingly little watts if the right set of conditions are met.   I long owned a pair of 91db/w 4ohm MTM speakers which are not the easiest load.  I like spectrally dense music in general and I like to play moderately loud, say upper 80dbs on average (not headbanger, but above polite conversation levels). I had a medium sized room for which I sat a normal 2m back.   I had a 10w SEP (single-ended pentode) amp that would hardly ever flinch at this task.   This leads me to my next point:

The recovery time of your amp upon clipping as well as how nice/ugly it clips have a big factor in choosing an amp that does not have a huge power reserve on tap.  If the recovery time of the amp is near instantaneous and the clipping is soft (i.e. compression rather than true wave-form clipping) then it is hardly even noticed.  This drives a lot of what I like about some of the better lower powered amps.

There are lot of folks that believe in huge overkill when it comes to power reserve.  I am not one of them.  If these amps were as good at the one watt level as some of the simple low powered amps then it would be a no-brainer, but for most of us here, we believe that is simply not so. 

Many of this brute amps employ lots of feedback.  Take a look at a typical THD vs power curves for these amps and you'll notice something funny in the (typically) less than 10w range.  THD rises!  Why is that?  Because of the feedback.   Unfortunately this comprises 99% of your listening.  So do I want to trade off the 99% for the 1% crescendo?  Not me.


Excellent observations. 

My current low wattage amp is a Pass Labs M2, a 25 watt zero feedback class A push pull unit that sounds a lot like a lower powered tube amp.  There is something about class A and zero feedback that just sounds so right. 

Will look into some DIY SET designs with my tech buddy, who has a large cache of iron and tubes to choose from. 

These speakers are from Cary, and work pretty well with as little as 10 watts: 



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60878)


Of course, want to learn more about speakers with these low wattage beauties.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: medium jim on 10 Apr 2012, 01:30 am
A good friend of mine has a pair of Avantgarde Trio's that he tells me are 107db.  However, he currently is driving them with a pair of Marantz 9's in triode (40watts).  Funny thing, I have the same amps and drive my less than efficient Magnepan's...

Another wonderful speaker for low wattage is Klipsch corner horns or LaScala's.

Jim
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Apr 2012, 01:45 am
A good friend of mine has a pair of Avantgarde Trio's that he tells me are 107db.  However, he currently is driving them with a pair of Marantz 9's in triode (40watts).  Funny thing, I have the same amps and drive my less than efficient Magnepan's...

Another wonderful speaker for low wattage is Klipsch corner horns or LaScala's.

Jim

I have listened to K-Horns with custom crossovers connected to McIntosh 225's.  Very lifelike sound with some types of music.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2012, 01:48 am
The only Klipsch I heard were cornwalls, iirc.  They were good in some ways but a bit harsh when driven hard.  I think modern horns/CDs can do better, but Mr. Klipsch was infamously cheap. 
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Diamond Dog on 10 Apr 2012, 02:02 am

JoshK : re SS vs. tube - I actually have both in my current system and am currently seriously considering a pair of SE/PP monos so I don't really have a dog in that fight...If you guys are gonna go to DEFCON 2 whenever someone from outside this segment of "The Hobby" has a question or is looking for a clarification on something, it doesn't bode well.

Freo-1 : Maybe you can let us all know at the outset whether this is the kind of Circle which is going to promote the concept of welcoming new people exploring the idea of low-wattage systems or if it's the kind of Circle which basically serves as a treehouse where a few existing enthusiasts get together to slap each other on the back...

D.D.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2012, 02:09 am
JoshK : re SS vs. tube - I actually have both in my current system and am currently seriously considering a pair of SE/PP monos so I don't really have a dog in that fight...If you guys are gonna go to DEFCON 2 whenever someone from outside this segment of "The Hobby" has a question or is looking for a clarification on something, it doesn't bode well.

D.D.


That is fine.  I am open for real discussion, but when your post consisted merely of a chart (which showed precisely what I was talking about), and an emoticon, it looked a though you were merely trolling.   If you had a serious question, you could have simply articulated such rather than a passive aggressive bait.

Let me rephrase that.  Did you actually have a question, or were you merely taking a stab? 

There is no back slapping "in-crowd" that you suspect.  I was in the "other" camp for most of my audiophiledom, but I learned that that wasn't what I find realistic in sound quality.  Then again neither are a lot of hi-eff/low watt systems.  Its a delicate balance.  I also like other designs, but there is something special about a SET amp and the right system when it gels.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: smk on 10 Apr 2012, 02:32 am
I think as well SPL/W/m & listening volume habits, one of the most important but overlooked thing low-wattage amps speakers which you hit on is the speaker load throughout the bandwidth.

I have a pair of 94/dB/m speakers SDLs & they work just fine in my small listening room with 2 watts/channel as long as exercise discretion with the volume control.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JohnR on 10 Apr 2012, 11:06 am
JoshK - thanks for getting right to a number of key issues.  :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Ericus Rex on 10 Apr 2012, 11:59 am
That is fine.  I am open for real discussion, but when your post consisted merely of a chart (which showed precisely what I was talking about), and an emoticon, it looked a though you were merely trolling.   If you had a serious question, you could have simply articulated such rather than a passive aggressive bait.

+1
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: eclein on 10 Apr 2012, 01:40 pm
As for speakers...when I had my 6.5 watt integrated I was using it with JBL-L830 3-ways/bookshelf and they are fine.. 90db sensitive-sound great.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60898)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Apr 2012, 04:22 pm
That is fine.  I am open for real discussion, but when your post consisted merely of a chart (which showed precisely what I was talking about), and an emoticon, it looked a though you were merely trolling.   If you had a serious question, you could have simply articulated such rather than a passive aggressive bait.

Let me rephrase that.  Did you actually have a question, or were you merely taking a stab? 

There is no back slapping "in-crowd" that you suspect.  I was in the "other" camp for most of my audiophiledom, but I learned that that wasn't what I find realistic in sound quality.  Then again neither are a lot of hi-eff/low watt systems.  Its a delicate balance.  I also like other designs, but there is something special about a SET amp and the right system when it gels.


Well stated.   8)

While discussion and differences of opinion are encouraged, need to ensure that postings that offer other views/questions don't come across sounding as being condescending or trolling.   Just ask questions and offer viewpoints in a straightforward manner, and all will be fine.

As a First Watt owner, both tubes and transistors are at play here.  The main emphasis is low power, regardless of the source.   :thumb:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Ericus Rex on 10 Apr 2012, 05:44 pm
I have very fond memories of my Bedini 25/25 (25 watts/channel pure class A SS).  This was the amp that convinced me that pure class A is the only form of SS worth listening to.  It was almost as involving as a tube amp and far more involving than many other ss designs I auditioned.  I used it with somewhat efficient speakers; started out with Meadowlark Kestrel Hot Rods (89 db iirc), then traded them in on Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods (also 89 db?).  While I had that amp a number of other speakers went in and out of my system as I had a very generous local hi-end shop who'd let me take all sorts of things home to try;  Spica TC-50's (used in the shop - I bought the pair for my Mother), various Totem models, PSBs...I can't remember everything I took home.  And that little champ of an amp always grabbed the speakers by the balls and told them what to do.  I sold it only b/c the transistors were getting very rare, as they had been out-of-production for 15+ years by the time I got the amp, and required to be replaced in complete matched septets per channel.  I didn't want to be stuck with a boat anchor so I sold it and got a much newer Pass Aleph 0s...which I didn't like as much.  Now it's all tube for me.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: macrojack on 10 Apr 2012, 05:47 pm
I know! I know! Choose me!

Efficient speakers?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: saisunil on 10 Apr 2012, 06:49 pm
Our kids are growing and I want to go back to toobs ... actually I am expecting to receive a PP el34 based amp today - but love to get into SET with high sensitivity speakers - may be one of danny's upcoming designs ...
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2012, 09:22 pm
PP EL34 amps with triode strapped and heavy into ClassA 10-11w sound awesome.  I have one.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Apr 2012, 10:43 pm
What about a DIY SET with something along the lines of a 211, 805, or 845 tubes?

Which one of the above would work the best, and what driver tubes would be recommended?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: saisunil on 11 Apr 2012, 12:29 am
I love the way big tubes like 211 or 845 look ... errr sound ;-)
I have also heard that for big tubes like that - you better have nice trannies and nice circuit to round it up ...
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 11 Apr 2012, 12:42 am
I love the way big tubes like 211 or 845 look ... errr sound ;-)
I have also heard that for big tubes like that - you better have nice trannies and nice circuit to round it up ...
Indeed. Winding good transformers for those is no small order.  I'd go for the gm70 myself. Cheaper.  Copper versions available.  Check out vinyl savor blog for a 211 circuit, would work perfectly.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 11 Apr 2012, 12:45 am
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.ca/search/label/211
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 11 Apr 2012, 12:48 am
It's actually an amp I'm planning to build.  Except I am going common cathode for the driver to overcome miller cap.  Have almost all parts already.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: doug s. on 11 Apr 2012, 04:49 am
synergy is definitely important.  i had a 5wpc decware amp that would not drive my 14 ohm coincident victory's at all, even tho they were crossed over to subs at 80hz.   that's cuz the amp had only 4 ohm taps, so it was effectively putting out only ~1.5watts into the victory's load. the decware amp wouldn't go loud, and it sounded like crap.  my other low-power amps, did fine, even off 8 ohm taps.  so yes, you need to match amp and speaker carefully, even more so when using low power amps and high-efficiency speakers.

regarding x-overs, i believe the low-power amp situation is where active x-overs beg to be used, so there are no issues of passive x-overs sucking power and/or dealing w/other possible phase/impedance issues...  you can match a specific amp to a specific driver.

doug .
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 11 Apr 2012, 05:01 pm
Very good summary Josh. The importance of a benign impedance curve is often misunderstood

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60861)

The graph may be pretty, but it has been clearly shown that it has NO correlation to sonics and is pretty much meaningless. One has to go back a step and see the data before it was collaped to get any idea.

Do note that the rise at the bottom in a noise + THD chart like this is the noise becoming a greater proportion of the signal as the signal level drops.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 11 Apr 2012, 05:03 pm
PP EL34 amps with triode strapped and heavy into ClassA 10-11w sound awesome.  I have one.

Me too.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 11 Apr 2012, 05:07 pm
What about a DIY SET with something along the lines of a 211, 805, or 845 tubes?

Scary high voltages usually and difficult to build/not very common OPTs (ie $$$). Not to mention HEAVY. I have a transformer suitable for PP 805.... one has to take care lifting just it.

There is a 211 SE at the local hifi emporium that has been collecting dust for years it would be nice to be able to afford.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: sebrof on 11 Apr 2012, 07:41 pm
In general terms, sensitive speakers with benign impedance, depending on the amp 8 ohms usually works best.
I have had KHorns with a 3-watt DIY 2A3 amp and it worked well (although I think in the end my room was too small for KHorns).
I have had the same 2A3 amp on Zu Omen, Tekton Katz Meow and Tekton Lore speakers. All sounded pretty good.
Currently running the Lores with an 18-watt PPP EL84 Manley Stingray and I think it's the best of all combinations I've been able to assemble.

So many ways to make good music, big watts, small watts and everything in between,
but I have found that in a small room (mine is 12' x 13' x 9') lower power/higher sensitivity works best.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60986)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: ZENTISH on 11 Apr 2012, 08:03 pm
Hi, If you get a chance go and listen to Sonist speakers, they are designed to work well with low wattage amps. There are models ranging from 1700.00 to around 6000.00. I own a pair of the Concerto 2's which are stand mount and they work VERY well with my 5 watt amps. 8)

  Tish
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 11 Apr 2012, 09:24 pm
8 ohms

8 ohms is not the loudspeakers impedance ... it is the nominal impedance,and tells you VERY little.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: DavidS on 11 Apr 2012, 11:54 pm
I have spied that same 211 - think it is a Topaz?

My Decware 84zs is just barely enough power for my new Fruglehorns in a small room - now the 211 would be an interesting match with the FHorns - hmmm may have to do a weekend borrow although probably debate-able what would weigh more the amp or bags of silver to purchase the amp.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 12 Apr 2012, 12:01 am
Speaking of 211...I just ordered a pair of 211 mono block (mentioned earlier) from Germany.   Tax return was not expected, plus a friend paid back a loan, so I decided to splurge.  I have followed Thomas's work for years and I really like how he builds things...and I don't seem to find the time anymore.


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vXNRb3ox73A/TY4POH56kDI/AAAAAAAAALM/H1bopfTk90o/s400/211-6HS5-5.jpg)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: bunky on 12 Apr 2012, 01:48 am
i heard a couple of pairs of 211 SET monos at the Capitol Audiofest.i believe one pair were Audio Note  :drool:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 12 Apr 2012, 01:58 am
I have spied that same 211 - think it is a Topaz?

That's the one. A 1st class amp, still sitting due to the Audio Note invasion. Even at dealer cost enuff to buy a good used car. They also probably still have some of the Antique Sounf Labs (i think i saw an 845 or 211). They'd be easier on the pocketbook but at a price. Did you ever borrow our RH84?

dave

PS: Chris has the Dayens
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: acresm22 on 12 Apr 2012, 02:04 am
Speaking of the RH84, I'm currently listening to this amp made by Wayne Rathan of Waamamps. Sounds very nice on my Klipsch LaScalas.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72459.0
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: zeke on 12 Apr 2012, 04:09 am
Audio Note E's, Tekton Lores, and Altec A7's, all sounded great with a Audio Note 300b amp, Burgess 45/2A3 amp, and Rawson F3 clone amp.

imo even tho a low watt amp may drive a 92db sens speaker satisfactorily, the amp usually sounds better driving a 95+ db sens speakers.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: sebrof on 12 Apr 2012, 12:37 pm
8 ohms is not the loudspeakers impedance ... it is the nominal impedance,and tells you VERY little.

dave
I mentioned "benign 8 ohms impedance" which I meant to be a flat 8 ohms, or at least relatively flat. My understanding is a simple crossover is a good place to start to get a flat impedance which Lores and Omens have (although the Omens are 12 ohms nominal). I think, anyway. I dunno.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: cheap-Jack on 12 Apr 2012, 02:17 pm
Hi.
i heard a couple of pairs of 211 SET monos at the Capitol Audiofest.i believe one pair were Audio Note  :drool:

Yea, Audio Note of Japan builds & sells the MOST expensive amps on this planet. I am talking about the 211 SET monoblock pair - "Ongaku".

"Ongaku" means music in Japanese. Tagged USD190,000 a pair, delivering only 2x27W. Undoubtedly the most costly music watts even made - qualified for the Guinea Book of World Record.

I was fortunate enough to be invited to audition "Ongaku" along with entire
Audio  gear. Sound excellent indeed though I doubt only the rich & famous can afford it.

c-J
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Ericus Rex on 12 Apr 2012, 02:43 pm
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vXNRb3ox73A/TY4POH56kDI/AAAAAAAAALM/H1bopfTk90o/s400/211-6HS5-5.jpg)

What's the ETA of those beauties, Josh?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 12 Apr 2012, 03:16 pm
August at best.  Mine will have the caps in black too.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: rollo on 12 Apr 2012, 03:55 pm
   Well the average Joes' 211 is the Consonance Cyber 211. Very similar circuit design to Audio Note. Very close. If you are willing to gut the sucker and add improved parts IMO as we did it will not be embarrased by the Ongaku. Actually closed than one might think.
   The 211 tube is our favorite for SET. The issue is the tubes. They are not cheap. GE, RCA, United oh my. Newer tubes current production are a hit and miss in sonics and reliability. We are not dealers for Consonance.



charles
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JoshK on 12 Apr 2012, 04:01 pm
My monoblocks come with NOS GE 211s.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: doug s. on 12 Apr 2012, 04:20 pm
nice set amps can be made w/6c33c tubes.  and 6c33c tubes are not expensive.  but some of these really are not low power amps.  i have a pair of audio mirror 6c33c amps that are relative bargains, imo, but at ~40-45wpc, they don't technically qualify for this circle.  that's what having a pair of 6c33c's per channel will do.   :lol:  audio mirror makes another amp, similar topology, w/6as7 tubes; for 20wpc:

(http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AudioMirror_files/am-intro_B.jpg)

doug s.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: macrojack on 12 Apr 2012, 05:15 pm
DougS - I have the Audio Mirror 20 watt version. Very good bargain indeed. And look what this guy did to his:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AudioMirror.htm

Since I don't get out much, tell me how these Audio Mirror products compare to the best. I really have no idea.

I've been in this town for almost 12 years and there still has never been one High End audio show. Can you believe it?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: doug s. on 12 Apr 2012, 05:25 pm
DougS - I have the Audio Mirror 20 watt version. Very good bargain indeed. And look what this guy did to his:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AudioMirror.htm

Since I don't get out much, tell me how these Audio Mirror products compare to the best. I really have no idea.

I've been in this town for almost 12 years and there still has never been one High End audio show. Can you believe it?

macro, i thought you might chime in - i know you own the 6as7 wersion.   :wink:

ya, i saw that guy's work - his amps are what i cc'd here in the pic i posted.  while i do not have much experience w/esoteric gear, what i hear, and what i have heard, tells me that these amps, even stock, offer 95% of the best of what's out there...  my amps compared favorably to $10k modded asl hurricane monoblocks, driving the ribbons of vmps rm40's, from ~280hz on up.  i am sure troels' rebuilt a-m amps are exceptional...

doug s.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 12 Apr 2012, 07:08 pm
I mentioned "benign 8 ohms impedance" which I meant to be a flat 8 ohms, or at least relatively flat.

One really needs to see the curves, with both magnitude & phase.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 12 Apr 2012, 07:10 pm
Hi.
Yea, Audio Note of Japan builds & sells the MOST expensive amps on this planet. I am talking about the 211 SET monoblock pair - "Ongaku".

What about the $350k Wavac?

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: macrojack on 12 Apr 2012, 07:24 pm
Well, I'm going to nip this little pissing contest in the bud. My Audio Mirrors are $450K. And that includes a bushel of tubes.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: cheap-Jack on 12 Apr 2012, 07:45 pm
Hi.
What about the $350k Wavac?

dave

Which Wavac? Its flagship model:- SE-833 V1.3 (150W) retailed for USD69,000 only. Per watt price still can't touch that Audio Note.

c-J
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 12 Apr 2012, 07:49 pm
Which Wavac?

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index.html

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: cheap-Jack on 12 Apr 2012, 08:05 pm
Hi.
http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index.html

dave

Click to Positive Feedback On-Line issue 21. Full review of the said model with retail price for USD69,000.00.

c-J
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 12 Apr 2012, 08:20 pm
I don't really care ... the sales tax on even the cheap one is more than i have into my hifi...

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: bhobba on 12 Apr 2012, 11:53 pm
I think its very important to get speakers that don't have wild impedance swings.  My speakers are an easy to drive load and even though they are about 90db sensitive my 8W Trafomatic Set drives them just fine - surprisingly so:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5463

This was back in the days when I used a 15W Leben - now I use an 8W Trafomatic SET.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 21 Apr 2012, 05:18 pm
nice set amps can be made w/6c33c tubes.  and 6c33c tubes are not expensive.  but some of these really are not low power amps.  i have a pair of audio mirror 6c33c amps that are relative bargains, imo, but at ~40-45wpc, they don't technically qualify for this circle.  that's what having a pair of 6c33c's per channel will do.   :lol:  audio mirror makes another amp, similar topology, w/6as7 tubes; for 20wpc:
doug s.
I wonder If you could run your AudioMirror 6C33 in summer version, with only one 6C33?? (by umpluging one tube supply) to listen a SET amp.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: doug s. on 21 Apr 2012, 05:44 pm
I wonder If you could run your AudioMirror 6C33 in summer version, with only one 6C33?? (by unplugging one tube supply) to listen a SET amp.

not sure if the amps could be run w/only one power tube, but, even then, the amp would still idle at over 300w, and a pair of single-tube 6c33c amps would still throw off a lot of heat...

i have several low power single-ended amps to choose from, but these are only making ~5wpc, so speaker choices are certainly different.   :lol:

doug s.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: seldenr on 29 May 2012, 09:29 pm
Fantastic thread Josh:
I spent about 4 years looking for the right speakers and went through some typical subjects (NHT, Coincident, Audio Physic, Dynaudio, Reference 3a) until I heard the Avantgarde Duo Omega (NOT the original Duo, which did not integrate well at all) in Singapore.  I bought a pair and was never happier.  Then sold them due to change in room.  BAD idea.  Wish I had them back.

As I recall they were/are 107db sensitive with 14 ohm nominal.  The interesting thing (to me and maybe to some others) was the year-long search for an amp.  I still play music as often as I can (amateur status), so I value dynamics, accurate timbres and that elusive sense of presence. 

So I spent some money buying several amps and begged and borrowed others so I could have as many amps as I could get in my room at one time.  Here is a general summary of the amps and winner.  And no, I do not have anything to do with the winner, no affiliation, etc.  Just one guy's (ok, three, since I had other musician friends come repeat my test) opinion.

I really, really wanted to like the Cary 300B monoblocks the best, but although they were gorgeous in the midband, they had little bass and little high end.  So I tried the Bel Canto 211 based amp.  Similar midband, better bass, but not transparent.  A little like some mist between the musicians and me.

Tried (and also wanted to like) the Consonance 845 based monoblocks, but again could not make them sound as realistic as I would like.  What was great fun was the little Berning ZOTL headphone amp (I think about 1.5 watts) that worked fine.  Not in the running, but it was interesting that such low wattage was sufficient.

Then up next was the Art Audio PX25.  In less than 2 seconds both myself and my sax-playing non-audiophile buddy stood up and said "that's it!!"  It had realism that we could not believe.  At 6 watts total we could only get the preamp to about 11:00, and it was throwing us out of the room.  Bass?  I thought the amp must have a solid state driver (even though the Avantgardes have a powered sub the bass always reflected the essence of each amp, which was interesting).

Horns sounded so real, and kick drums felt like you were in the same room.  There was one particular sax solo on a Gordon Goodwin DVD-A disc that, with eyes closed, you would almost swear was in the room.

Next up was the version 2 of Audiopax KT88 based monoblocks.  They were also terrific, and probably came in 2nd (as much as I wanted to 300B to win, and KT88 tubes have never done much for me).  But it still did not have the clarity, live factor, dynamics or natural timbre to the instruments as the PX25.  By itself it was fantastic, but side by side was not in the same league.

Was it the Art Audio or just the PX25 tube itself?  I don't know and hope someone else might have experience with other PX25 amps.  I do know Art Audio's claim to fame is their proprietary transformers which they say are made in-house. And that is a big factor as you have pointed out.

My $0.0002 opinion of the combination.  And would love to hear if anyone has tried any other PX25 based amps.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Shogun on 30 May 2012, 02:35 am
If money is not a issue and want something better than a Lowther without their weakness.

Rethm Trishna, a 6,5 inch wideband and dual woofers. 2w is enough because the woofers are handle by its own amplifier.
http://www.rethm.com/trishna_details.html (http://www.rethm.com/trishna_details.html)

Feastrex 5 inch fullrange alnico driven by the Feastrex 10w amplifier. Impressive!
http://www.miketangaudio.ca/Feastrex_Product_Information.pdf (http://www.miketangaudio.ca/Feastrex_Product_Information.pdf)

I haven`t heart it, but a owner of Festrex said the fielcoil version, it is something.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: DaveC113 on 30 May 2012, 03:09 am
If money is not a issue and want something better than a Lowther without it`s weakness.

Rethm Trishna, a 6,5 inch wideband and dual woofers. 2w is enough because the woofers are handle by its own amplifier.
http://www.rethm.com/trishna_details.html (http://www.rethm.com/trishna_details.html)

Feastrex 5 inch fullrange driven by the Feastrex 10w amplifier. Impressive!
http://www.miketangaudio.ca/Feastrex_Product_Information.pdf (http://www.miketangaudio.ca/Feastrex_Product_Information.pdf)

I haven`t heart it, but a owner of Festrex said the fielcoil version, it is something.

Those are both very good choices, the Feastrex drivers are very, very impressive... it's been a while since I heard them, last time was at RMAF a few years ago where they were used open baffle with a subwoofer and active EQ. It was one of the best systems I've ever heard, but not exactly cheap.

For those on a budget, I haven't heard a better value in single driver speakers than Omega. I have the 4.5" XRS model driven by an EL34 SET in triode mode with no feedback. It makes ~5 wpc. For $4-5k a pair of Omega speakers with Omega sub and something like a Decware EL34 SET amp approaches some seriously high dollar systems costing 10x the price.

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Docere on 7 Jul 2012, 05:28 am
Hi all,

Disclaimer: I do not own a low power system, but have been reading, loosely researching and contributing to discussions about them for a while. I am finally having a system built: GPA 604-8H-III in a Scott Lindgren designed MLTL; I will build the amps (firstly, an all film-cap version of the 6c6 – 2A3 Radiotron amp; secondly, an optimised direct-coupled version, using low DCR power supplies etc.). So, please take my opinion with this in mind.

Firstly with regard to SET amplifiers, it is not simply the low power and variation in the ‘reflected’ load that provides a challenge, but also the high output impedance/ low damping ability (this is more important, I think). High sensitivity addresses the power challenge; relatively even impedance and minimal phase angles address the reflect load challenge. Plenty has been discussed and written about this.

Driver Qts is another factor that has been discussed in detail by the likes of Nelson Pass and others, yet still seems to be ignored by most folks. Qts is a measure of the driver’s ability to damp itself – to control / stop itself. The lower the Qts the greater the driver self-control. Speaker system Qtc refers to how well the speaker system – cabinet and driver combination – is damped, which relates mostly to bass performance (lean, dry, just-right, soft). The lower the value the more damped the system. A zero feedback SET amp has high output impedance and offers little control over a driver / speaker system; an ideal speaker system should not need much control from the amplifier. If you have an efficient speaker that sounds slow, soft… boring, it may use a mid-high Qts driver and/or be not well enough damped.

I have only touched briefly on the few factors especially relevant to speakers for low power high output impedance amplifiers. Of course, then there are other factors relating to the design of speakers in general. Speakers designed for ideal operation with low output impedance solid state arc welders amplifiers are not likely to be ideal for high output impedance amplifiers; they might work OK, but…

I opted for a custom design so that I would have a greater chance of success. I can’t tell you how well the system works because I have neither the speakers of the amp yet. Give me time.

Cheers,
Raymond
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 7 Jul 2012, 05:58 am
... GPA 604-8H-III in a Scott Lindgren designed MLTL

I'm familiar with that design :D, you must be from down under.

Quote
Driver Qts is another factor that has been discussed in detail by the likes of Nelson Pass and others, yet still seems to be ignored by most folks. Qts is a measure of the driver’s ability to damp itself – to control / stop itself. The lower the Qts the greater the driver self-control. Speaker system Qtc refers to how well the speaker system – cabinet and driver combination – is damped, which relates mostly to bass performance (lean, dry, just-right, soft). The lower the value the more damped the system. A zero feedback SET amp has high output impedance and offers little control over a driver / speaker system; an ideal speaker system should not need much control from the amplifier. If you have an efficient speaker that sounds slow, soft… boring, it may use a mid-high Qts driver and/or be not well enough damped.

This is almost right. What you are interested in is a low Qms, the abilty of the driver to damp itself. For the more graphic minded, the shape of the LF resonance peak is small (wide helps too)

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Docere on 7 Jul 2012, 11:02 am
Hi Dave,

Great guess - yes, from Australia. I am not surprised you're familiar with the design: you did a wonderful job of drawing it up (and I would not be surprised if you contributed a little to the design as well). I am very eager to hear it. The build is coming along nicely; Ben does some very nice work, as you may know from his Frugal builds. He would not compromise my build to get it done quickly and I am thankful. I will post a progress pic in one of the relevent threads here.

Thank you for the clarification and being specific about the mechanical damping component (suspension-related) of the Qts (ie. Qms). Your comment about the impact on the resonance peak is very helpful and makes practical sense to me.  Do you think the electromechanical damping needs to be considered with regards to being driven by high output impedance amps?

One of these days I'd like to learn more about this stuff; in the meantime we have folks like yourself and Scott making it easier to build high quality systems that I could otherwise only dream about.

Cheers,
Raymond
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Lefatshe on 2 Oct 2015, 01:06 am
What's amazing about this discussion is the original question asked about speakers and about 80% of the posts are about amps.

Yes, low watt amps are great, but what are those speakers that have the right sensitivity, right impedance curves, etc. that are able to make wonderful music with low watt amps (let's say below 12 watts)?


(Yes, I will see if there are more up-to-date discussions, or post a new question.)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JLM on 3 Oct 2015, 12:57 pm
What's amazing about this discussion is the original question asked about speakers and about 80% of the posts are about amps.

Yes, low watt amps are great, but what are those speakers that have the right sensitivity, right impedance curves, etc. that are able to make wonderful music with low watt amps (let's say below 12 watts)?


(Yes, I will see if there are more up-to-date discussions, or post a new question.)

Not amazing when you consider that this is a "low wattage" not a "high efficiency" circle, so the orientation is amps versus speakers.  And my experience bears that out.  Too bad because the real challenge of low wattage amps is finding good, affordable speakers.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Guy 13 on 3 Oct 2015, 01:09 pm
Hi all,
I own a Decware SE84C+ (2wpc) driving a Omega 7F (Open baffle dipole) and I am very happy with it,
probably my last system before I kick the bucket.
The Decware and Omega are a very, very good match
and the smaller size Omega speakers are very affordable.
I would also recommend (Even if I never heard one) the new Wright Audio mini el84 at 795 USD.

Guy 13
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 3 Oct 2015, 06:48 pm
For the last couple months i have been using a pair of Pass Amp Camp Amps. They are 5w/channel and i have been amazed that they are sufficient to drive almost any speaker in my stable (84-92 dB) to satisfying levels (except the lowest efficiency at louder than normal levels). Kits (stereo pr) are $300 at diyAudio.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: fritzspeakers on 3 Oct 2015, 10:52 pm
Besides efficiency ratings, you do want to look at the impedance and phase curves of the loudspeakers to get an idea of how well they will work with any given tube amp.  The smoother the better.  Unlike a solid state amp, I believe tube amps will put out more power at higher impedance loads.  If there is a big bump, it will result in an uneven frequency response.  Also, a complex crossover with many parts & large coils isn't good for lower powered amps.  Simple first order series crossovers usually work very well on speakers driven by tube amps.

Here is a link to an article written by Steve using an 8 watt 300B Audio Note amp that he built from a kit with a pair of my loudspeakers with series crossovers with paper based mid/bass drivers.

https://stevefolberg.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/equipment-review-the-fritz-speakers-carbon-7-se/ (https://stevefolberg.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/equipment-review-the-fritz-speakers-carbon-7-se/)

Happy listening...  Fritz
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 3 Oct 2015, 10:59 pm
Unlike a solid state amp, I believe tube amps will put out more power at higher impedance loads.  If there is a big bump, it will result in an uneven frequency response.

That is a generalization based on the more typical output impedances of tubes & solid state amps. SE solid state amps typically have higher output impedances so you have take the same care looking for a speaker with a smooth output impedance.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Duke on 16 Oct 2015, 11:00 pm
Yes, low watt amps are great, but what are those speakers that have the right sensitivity, right impedance curves, etc. that are able to make wonderful music with low watt amps (let's say below 12 watts)?

Daedalus and Omega are "locals" that come to mind.  Vapor also has a couple such models, as does yours truly.  Danny Ritchie of GR Research has done some excellent high efficiency SET-friendly speakers in the past, check with him as well.   

I agree very much with the posts above that suggest the shape of the impedance curve is particularly important.  Fritz gives the example of an 88 dB speaker that worked well with 8 watts, which on paper looks like a mis-match but the impedance curve was benign and so it worked fine.   Unfortunately this isn't something that is apparent from a spec sheet, so best to contact the speaker manufacturer if you have questions about compatibility with your particular amp. 

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Oct 2015, 12:17 am
Duke,
What is the effect from the inductance on a low watt tube amp?
The driver is a 12'' 98dB 1mH wide range.
Thanks
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: luckyguy on 17 Oct 2015, 02:20 am
I've been listening to my 500 htz salad bowls by Edgarhorn hooked up to TAD 2001s with a parallel 2A3 amp putting out 4.5 watts for the past 6 months.  Experiencing my old 802D Altec drivers with 511s and a history with a pair of 604Cs with a Yamamoto 45, a 6 watt 300B and a 3 watt 2A3 as guides, I would guess the TAD/Edgar combo puts out at 110 db @ 1 meter.  Mids and bass comes out of a pair of A5 boxes dinked by Altec 515s and powered by a heavily modded set of Heath W6ms with original outputs.  Sound is absolutely effortless and represents my best efforts so far in recreating realism.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Duke on 17 Oct 2015, 02:41 am
Duke,
What is the effect from the inductance on a low watt tube amp?
The driver is a 12'' 98dB 1mH wide range.
Thanks

That seems to me like a fairly high inductance for a wideband driver, unless it's a 16-ohm driver. 

Relative to being driven by a solid state amp, I would expect to get more top end from that wideband driver when driven by a low watt tube amp, assuming the amp has a fairly high output impedance (low damping factor), which is generally characteristic of designs that have little or no global negative feedback.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Oct 2015, 04:20 am
Thanks Duke for your honest reply.
The driver is this pro audio:
http://lsv-achenbach.de/daten/beyma/bey_12G125.pdf
The inductance is at the botton left.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Duke on 18 Oct 2015, 04:15 am
Thanks Duke for your honest reply.
The driver is this pro audio:
http://lsv-achenbach.de/daten/beyma/bey_12G125.pdf
The inductance is at the botton left.

Nice looking driver!

It's 8 ohms, but with a much longer x-max than most widerange drivers, and I suspect that's where the higher inductance comes in.

This is probably blasphemy, but I'd be tempted to experiment with a notch filter to bring down the emphasis between 2 and 3 kHz.   This driver looks smoother than most I've seen, but imo there's room for improvement in that region, theoretically at least.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 18 Oct 2015, 10:21 am
Its a old model I found in a 2002 catalog.
Its very smooth, better than Eminence Beta 12LTA.
Do you think that peak between 2-3Khz is audible?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Duke on 21 Oct 2015, 02:03 am
Do you think that peak between 2-3Khz is audible?

Yes.

The ear's sensitivity peaks in the 2-4 kHz octave, so that's an important region to get right. 
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 21 Oct 2015, 02:05 am
Thanks Duke. :thumb:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 12 May 2016, 12:41 am

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=142821)


On a scale of 1 - 10, how SET friendly would you say the above is?


Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 12 May 2016, 01:03 am
The impedance peak at the XO is almost as high as at resonance. With a SET you will have a peak at 1k. IMO not a great impedance curve for a SET. The rise at resonance should extend the bass (but care, it may also get "fat").

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 12 May 2016, 12:54 pm
Thanks, Dave. The bass actually sounds pretty tight and detailed. But I suspect the peak around 900 is taxing the 8 watt power output. In addition to that, I just found out the manufacturer has overstated the sensitivity by about 3 db according to the measurements taken at the NRC. So the speakers I thought were 89 db @ 1 watt are really 86 db...  I should have known better, oh well.  :oops:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FireGuy on 12 May 2016, 01:31 pm
Thanks, Dave. The bass actually sounds pretty tight and detailed. But I suspect the peak around 900 is taxing the 8 watt power output. In addition to that, I just found out the manufacturer has overstated the sensitivity by about 3 db according to the measurements taken at the NRC. So the speakers I thought were 89 db @ 1 watt are really 86 db...  I should have known better, oh well.  :oops:

Vendors overstating sensitivity is very real.  "I should have known better."  I suppose we can all relate to that.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JLM on 14 May 2016, 12:20 pm
No industry accepted standards for measuring audio specifications.   :evil:

Speaker efficiency at what frequency (versus showing a graph across the entire stated response of the speaker)?  Test bench (ideal) conditions or with some sort of real world amplifiers?  Sine wave loading or using known samples of music?

Audiophiles should stand up and ask for our money back when stated specifications mislead.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JLM on 23 May 2016, 12:30 pm
Finally 8 of us got into the home of a new member of our audio club Saturday to hear his $50k system.  The $10,000 USD speakers used (8) 4 inch Fostex FE126En drivers front and back in a truncated bipole vertical line array (32 drivers in all) with a front firing ribbon tweeter crossed very high and a pair of passive radiators.  The drivers were in 4 paralleled groupings of 4 that were in series, resulting in a 101 dB/w/m at 16 ohm efficiency.  Large subwoofers filled in the bottom.  We listened in the side of a 26 ft x 22 ft x 8 ft space.  Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to hear familiar music during my time in the sweet spot so can only provide limited impressions.  But as predictable the acoustic center was mid-height of the array (quite low - about 23 inches above the floor).  Overall presentation was "soft" (not audiophile crisp).  The member has been around audio for decades, likes the sound that way, and admittedly constantly tube swapping. 

Individually the $60 FE126En is rated 93 dB/w/m at 8 ohms and 15 watts rms.  Bass begins to roll off at 200 Hz.  Using 16 per speaker does boost bass and output.  But I'm not convinced that $960 worth of drivers couldn't have been better spent or that the speakers were competitive with other $10,000 speakers (Daedalus Audio comes immediately to mind).
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 23 May 2016, 06:06 pm
FE126En is not a driver i'd choose for an array, even if they were my own better EnABLed ones.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: MothAudio on 1 Feb 2017, 01:51 am
(https://scontent.fcmh1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16472854_1507384925951833_1882904344857408836_n.jpg?oh=fa1179ea7cacde8c36c7ff439591d110&oe=5908C8C7)

Silverline Sonatina

(https://scontent.fcmh1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16427452_1507462595944066_7054872173447363577_n.jpg?oh=aca6af9dd5b45dd5deb226d8f976df9d&oe=5944C2F1)


For the past 15 years I've been using the original Silverline Sonatina's. I pair these with a Moth s45 SET using Emission Labs 45 triodes. MothAudio s45 custom direct reactance drive - adjustable bias, zero feedback - 45 or 2a3 SET (1.8-6wpc output). Electra-Print BE5KB transformers 3k OPT / 13w plate disipation / Borne 10k pot / Jupiter Copper Foil 0.22uF 600VDC coupling caps / Kiwame carbon film resistors / CTC 'blowtorch' silver wire.

The tweeter and midrange drivers are soft domes from LPG and modified by Silverline, while the woofers are from SEAS and also modified to Silverline’s specifications. The speakers feature first-order crossover slopes, with crossover frequencies specified as 1500Hz and 3500Hz. Rated frequency response is 25Hz to 27kHz. Sensitivity is specified as 93dB and impedance as 8 ohms, making the speakers an easy load. The cabinet, which is ported out the back, is made out of MDF and has a separate compartment in the bottom for the crossover, which is wired almost directly to the speaker terminals, pairs for treble/midrange and bass.

My listener priorities are emotional expression coupled with a non-fatiguing presentation. My objective is to capture a delicate, airy, dimensional presentation that suggests music rather than mere sound while exploring both nuance and tone. I feel the Moth+Sonatina pairing pushed the whole replay thing to another level that just made the illusion more real. And this was the Moth with the EML 45's, I never felt the same thing with 2a3s which the amp also accepts. Funny how the smallest differences can have the most profound effect. Naturally, YMMV.

The listening room is 27x18x9. The speakers are basically diagonally positioned in one corner on a long wall. Spaced 11 feet apart, the listener position 8 feet back.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: fortc on 5 Feb 2017, 05:12 am
I would like to know speakers that would work well with 2A3 SET amps.  Something that is not in the astronomical price range.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: AudioSoul on 11 Jun 2017, 02:32 pm


   I have been reading this thread with interest. I just recently got into a low powered tube system. I have owned high powered tube amps and class A SS amps in the past so I am familiar with that sound. I recently replaced my equipment with a Chinese SEP EL34 8w tube amp and a Chinese tube preamp. I was looking to get  a pair of  Klipsch Cornwalls for speakers. These were above my affordability so I looked around and found some new high efficiency speakers from Tekton Designs. They are the Lore's. I can say I am very happy with this setup and can say the best sounds I have ever heard from my own system. I know the electronics are not top notch but I just want to post this for others, you don't have to spend a lot of money to get great music from low powered tube amps....
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: fredgarvin on 11 Jun 2017, 09:10 pm

   I have been reading this thread with interest. I just recently got into a low powered tube system. I have owned high powered tube amps and class A SS amps in the past so I am familiar with that sound. I recently replaced my equipment with a Chinese SEP EL34 8w tube amp and a Chinese tube preamp. I was looking to get  a pair of  Klipsch Cornwalls for speakers. These were above my affordability so I looked around and found some new high efficiency speakers from Tekton Designs. They are the Lore's. I can say I am very happy with this setup and can say the best sounds I have ever heard from my own system. I know the electronics are not top notch but I just want to post this for others, you don't have to spend a lot of money to get great music from low powered tube amps....

The Klipsch Forte and Chorus both sound great to me with low powered amps. Especially with the titanium diaphragms. I'm looking to buy a pair but everybody is asking fantasy prices around here for them at the moment. Sooner or later someone will crack and a deal will appear.  :thumb: I'll keep my big Coda Continuum with my VMPS speakers and find either a tube or tripath type for the Klipsch.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 11 Jun 2017, 09:24 pm
The Forte II worth to buy used due the bass performance from the Passive Radiator;
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: fredgarvin on 27 Jun 2017, 05:26 pm
The Forte II worth to buy used due the bass performance from the Passive Radiator;

I just picked up some Quartets, the same drivers as the Forte II but with a 10" woofer and 12" passive radiator. They really surprised me how good they sound. I can't quit playing music. My wife fell in love with them immediately. The vocals are so natural sounding and the dynamics and live feel of these are spectacular. They really pump out the bass as well. The chest thump is back!

The tractix horns have  none of the honk or harshness that the 'internet' is so certain about. The tweeters have the newer titanium diaphragms. After 15 years listening to panels and ribbons, this sounds so fresh.

Luckily, with my big amp I have I have a neutral sounding IRD pre with variable gain. On the lowest setting I can still get huge volume with a tiny twist of the knob.

I'm going to fix that pretty soon.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 27 Jun 2017, 06:37 pm
When ForteII was tested by Audio(germany) in the 1990s they say it was unbeatable in solo clarinet, so I think you will like to hear Acker Bilk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L4C5hKRS48
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: fredgarvin on 27 Jun 2017, 07:03 pm
When ForteII was tested by Audio(germany) in the 1990s they say it was unbeatable in solo clarinet, so I think you will like to hear Acker Bilk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L4C5hKRS48

Nice, my parents used to listen to Acker Bilk, Al hirt.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: richp4003 on 12 Dec 2017, 02:05 pm
I have some Zu Audio Druid (v5) and they are pretty fantastic and are very high sensitivity. Granted, I am running them with 40+ watt Luxman tube amps, but given how effortlessly they can get loud and clear, I think they would be fare pretty well with SET stuff.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: rollo on 12 Dec 2017, 04:41 pm
   Rethm, Omega, Volti, Devore all depends on your budget.


charles
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: doggie on 30 Jan 2018, 04:10 am
   Rethm, Omega, Volti, Devore all depends on your budget.


charles

+1 for Omega Audio. I use their 97db High Output Alnicos with my Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear amp (20 watts PP Compactron tubes from a David Berning design).
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Mazeppa on 18 Sep 2018, 07:01 am
Only have just begun to explore the low watt amp/high efficiency speakers path, and struck gold right away.
Like Dad always said, "I'd rather be lucky than good."

The Caintuck Audio Betsy Baffle.

A 92.4db/5.9ohm, single driver, open baffle speaker.
When fed well recorded, acoustic music from a cd player through a Schiit Gumby to a home brew 25W/channel chipamp I experienced the ethereal "equipment disappears and the music becomes part of the air"
sound for the first time.
Get them in their sweet spot and special things happen. Just music, not reproduced music.

Consider me thoroughly impressed, even amazed.

So, off I go.
Ordered a pair of Omega Super 3 XRS's, can't wait to get my Amp Camp Amp Kit mono blocks built, looking for just the right preamp...

This is going to be fun.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: roscoe65 on 18 Sep 2018, 11:48 am
   Rethm, Omega, Volti, Devore all depends on your budget.
charles

I will second Charles' recommendations.  I own several Omega speakers, and all of them work with as little as two watts.  They may not all be room-filling at that power, but can provide satisfying dynamics even at low power.  Other wide-range drivers I have heard with low power SET (my own including a direct-coupled 45 SET) include Diatone PM-610B, Fostex Fe127n, Triangle FL17TLV, Lowther (unkown model).

Wide range drivers without crossovers tend to be very easy to drive.  On the other hand, more complicated speakers, even those of greater efficiency such as Altecs or Tannoys seem to like a bit more power to get up and go.

I am of the opinion that very light moving mass is key to being able to use fleawatt power.  If we look at a speaker like the Omega Super 3, which has a single 4" driver mounted in a bass reflex box, it should not work with 2wpc as well as it does..  But the driver has a strong magnet and very low cone mass of 1.6g.  The result is an honest 94.5dB (such precision!).  Louis generally gets good bass from his alignments, but at the end of the day you are limited by the laws of physics.  I like this driver with additional bass support.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: roscoe65 on 18 Sep 2018, 11:53 am
Only have just begun to explore the low watt amp/high efficiency speakers path, and struck gold right away.
Like Dad always said, "I'd rather be lucky than good."

The Caintuck Audio Betsy Baffle.

A 92.4db/5.9ohm, single driver, open baffle speaker.
When fed well recorded, acoustic music from a cd player through a Schiit Gumby to a home brew 25W/channel chipamp I experienced the ethereal "equipment disappears and the music becomes part of the air"
sound for the first time.
Get them in their sweet spot and special things happen. Just music, not reproduced music.

Consider me thoroughly impressed, even amazed.

So, off I go.
Ordered a pair of Omega Super 3 XRS's, can't wait to get my Amp Camp Amp Kit mono blocks built, looking for just the right preamp...

This is going to be fun.

The Super 3XRS is a great speaker, and one what you can keep with you as your system grows.  I own RS5-based speakers in both single driver and dual driver configurations.  The dual driver model does offer better midbass, but to my ear loses some of the midrange magic of the single driver model.  I think that with the larger XRS cabinet you will like the bass on the single driver model.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Sep 2018, 09:13 pm
Check out the new up and coming Decware DNA2's. Steve is saying these are the best that he that has ever built. Decware also sells a pair of the Omegas.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Mazeppa on 19 Sep 2018, 12:45 am
The Super 3XRS is a great speaker, and one what you can keep with you as your system grows.  I own RS5-based speakers in both single driver and dual driver configurations.  The dual driver model does offer better midbass, but to my ear loses some of the midrange magic of the single driver model.  I think that with the larger XRS cabinet you will like the bass on the single driver model.

Magic, that's what I'm looking for.
My Omegas should be in the house around the 1rst of Oct, really looking forward to seeing/hearing them.

Decware site is where I was introduced to the Betsy Baffle.
Already had some Omega's in my sights, research on which led me to the Decware site.
The Betsy's didn't fill any need that I had, but I was intrigued by the open baffle concept.
They were consistent with the direction I was turning to and I had no experience with open baffle speakers, so I popped for them, and was (continue to be) pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Mazeppa on 19 Sep 2018, 12:47 am
Check out the new up and coming Decware DNA2's. Steve is saying these are the best that he that has ever built. Decware also sells a pair of the Omegas.

I live in Harrison, AR.
Where are you at, OzarkTom?

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Shogun on 23 Sep 2018, 02:05 pm
Coherent Audio from Ontario, Canada. They have three models : a 10'', 12'', 15'' and maybe still have a 8'' version. His website is not up to date. I don't think Frank, as a one man operation, has the time or/and he's a web geek, marketing type. But, he's easy to reach and prefer a personal approach.

Audiowise, as a dealer, is a better place to view Frank's loudspeakers.

On most audio shows, Coherent is mated to Triode Labs 2A3 with stunning results.

http://www.coherentaudio.ca/ (http://www.coherentaudio.ca/)

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/collections/coherent (https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/collections/coherent)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Tyson on 23 Sep 2018, 02:52 pm
GR Research Super 7 speakers are becoming available again.  97db efficient with a very flat 8ohm impedance and a self-powered bass section.  Bass is from 16hz to 200hz, so your tube amp only has to power from 200hz on up:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.0
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 22 Nov 2018, 05:51 am
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone ~

I am using a Yamamoto A-08S, 2 Watt 45 Tube SET to drive a pair of 8" Lowther PM5A's with Ticonal Magnets, in an Open Baffle configuration, with bass duties handled by the Eminence 15A 15" driver, driven by the 7 Watt TBI Millenia Class BD.

To get everything to sound quite lovely took a few years. The leap from very good to incredibly special took a definitive turn when my nephew gave me an older used Apple Mac Mini to play with about a year ago. I purchased a monthly subscription to Tidal and then purchased the Audirvana Application which is synergistic with Tidal and promised to have better algorythms than some of the best and most expensive DAC's currently available. Then I purchased the small cigar-shaped Meridian Explorer 2 DAC so I could hear what the MQA hype was all about.

Audirvana was truly a revelation, bass suddenly appeared from some unknown dimension, room filling sea-deep highly textured bass that I have never heard before. Getting bass to work with Open Baffle speakers is usually a challenge. The treble region integrated better, allowing instruments like the violin, always difficult to reproduce with that silvery translucent texture that the Lowther's did not always get quite right before, resolve beautifully now. Shimmering instruments like bells, chimes, top hats of drums, triangles and the like now sound like I am using a highly resolving electrostatic tweeter.

So working with Open Baffle, Lowther wide-range drivers, and a 2 watt 45 SET amplifier is not a plug-and-play system. It takes quite a bit of luck to bring everything together so the music can 'sing' beautifully. It takes patience and experimentation and sometimes throwing caution to the winds if one has a strong hunch and a passion to find out.

Now almost every piece of music that is moderately well-recorded sounds very musical and gives off sparks of delightfully textured and harmonic colors. Audirvana also has an option to control volume which easily allows the 2 Watt/Lowther combination to fill my 20 foot by 30 foot listening room with powerfully pulsating music if I desire to listen at those extravagant levels of volume.

Amplifier/speaker combinations are influenced by many factors, made even more challenging if one is looking for speakers to use with Low Watt amplifiers. I chose the Lowther Ticonal 8" drivers because they were rated, at least by the then US distributor, at 98db sensitive. I had previously owned or heard several 45 tube amplifiers and missed the purity and transparency of that special sound and knew that if I wanted to listen to music played by a 45 tube amplifier the speakers had to be appropriately sensitive. I took a risk in bringing them together and was amazed that the Yamamoto A-08S was configured to have a very strong output signal making a workable synergy with the Lowthers.

I also use the rather expensive Emmision Labs 45 Mesh Plate larger-than-life tubes which also contributes to a deeper, richer, wider frequency spectrum sound than the NOS 45 tubes I have tried. I feel confident that better cables will improve what I am hearing, perhaps with better separation of instruments. I am open to discovering an inexpensive higher-resolving cable that is still 'musical' but what I am hearing now is really special and I am in no hurry to experiment with that. 

With Warmest Friendship ~ Richard
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: witchdoctor on 22 Nov 2018, 03:41 pm
Richard - Tekton makes a speaker specially designed for tube amplifiers:

https://www.tektondesign.com/the-perfect-set.html

The other suggestion would be Klipsch. Maybe a Heritage model like the Forte:

https://www.klipsch.com/heritage-speakers

As for cables try inquiring over in the Zen Wave Circle. I think isolation is important too and maybe post in Herbies Circle. Have fun.

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Tyson on 22 Nov 2018, 05:13 pm
I really like OB speakers, so I'd recommend either the Super 7 kits that Danny's offering here:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.0

Or the Pure Audio Project speakers available here:

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/

It's hard for me to find OB speakers that I like, because I like big, slamming bass.  Which is a notorious weak point on OB speakers.  But not on the PAP or Super 7s.  These both rock!
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: jbtrio on 22 Nov 2018, 05:41 pm
I don't know if anybody mentioned Horning Hybrid speakers. I have the Eufrodite Ellipse using Frankenstein 300b and First Watt SIT-3 amps and the pairings are excellent.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: rollo on 30 Nov 2018, 07:44 pm
I don't know if anybody mentioned Horning Hybrid speakers. I have the Eufrodite Ellipse using Frankenstein 300b and First Watt SIT-3 amps and the pairings are excellent.


 Not bad either, hey Joe.


charles
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Shogun on 4 Dec 2018, 01:43 am
Ok, this website is more complete, has all the infos on Coherent speakers.

https://coherentguy7.wixsite.com/coherentaudio/current-line (https://coherentguy7.wixsite.com/coherentaudio/current-line)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JLM on 12 Dec 2018, 11:46 am
For years, liking the sound/principles, tried to enter the low power field but could never find reasonably priced speakers I liked.  A good analogy in the transportation world is that low wattage amps are bicycle tires (perhaps the world's best) and you're looking for a decent/good ride to match them up to.  Would be OK if you like pedaling everywhere you go, limited by the weather you can travel in, forgo carrying much cargo or any passengers, and do it at low speeds.  But bicycle tires make no sense for a motorcycle, car, etc.

Refused to limit myself to little girl and a guitar genres or late night sound pressure levels.  Most low power friendly speakers are single driver designs that lack full bass (and many low power aficionados don't even realize it!!) and have emphasized midrange response or other colorations.  More expensive multi-driver designs use energy robbing crossovers that may measure as reasonably efficient but rob low power amps of dynamics and ultimate output and can also have colorations.  Again the dynamics/ultimate output issue can relate back to transportation, the corollary being a tiny engine in a big car.  Sure it will move, but acceleration would be pitiful and top speed wouldn't allow for freeway use.

My guideline has been that true audiophile performance begins with handling peaks of at least 30-20,000 Hz response at 105 dB (live symphonic music), fidelity attributes (tone, detail, imaging, etc.) being debatable.  Note that I'm not a headbanger, just want full musical response.  Anything less IMO can't begin to be defined as high fidelity, it can only be a niche system, suited for reproduction of small unamplified ensembles.  Additional watts (and damping) provide a commanding grip of the drivers that add detail (and prevents clipping to save the amp/drivers). 

Watts versus dB is a logarithmic relationship.  By definition 1 watt = 0 dB of gain.  2 watts = 3 dB of gain.  5 watts = 7 dB of gain.  10 watts = 10 dB of gain, etc.  Adding the dB of gain from the amp to the speaker efficiency (huge assumption that the stated specification is accurate) would give you the output (per channel at 1 meter away).  So a 94 dB/w/m speaker fed by a 5 watt amp could produce 101 dB 1 meter away.  Adding a second channel and increasing the distance to say 6ft would be a wash (still 101 dB). 
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 23 Dec 2018, 05:24 pm
I find it strange that someone would enter the Low Wattage Systems circle, which incidentally I love, just to de-construct the very idea of the validity of the low-watt approach to home music reproduction. Obviously, the magic of using a combination of a high-sensitivity speaker with a well-designed low-watt amplifier has never touched him.

Right now I am listening to my present low-watt system: self-designed open-baffle speakers using Lowther PM5Alnico/Ticonal drivers for the mid-to high-frequencies driven by the Shigeki Yamamoto designed A-08S 2 watt 45 tube amplifier, combined with the Eminence Alpha 15A 15" drivers for mid-range to bass duties, driven by a 7 watt class D amplifier. The music produced by this combination, using Audirvana to stream Tidal through its sophisticated algorythms, then passing it through the small cigar-shaped Meridian Explorer 2 DAC, is nothing less than electrifying. Deborah and I are stunned every time we listen to the vast range of music that we love.

However, I admit that I do not listen to symphonic music. Neither Deborah nor I respond to music that is heavily laden with large-scale instrumental density. This is not a criticism of music written for large-scale symphonies, which admittedly a good part of the world of music lovers cherish, but just our particular musical aesthetic. We prefer smaller-scale music; classical small ensembles, jazz, occasional rock and roll, 'popular' musical genres, a great deal of native music from around the world, and a huge amount of music written for the voice, including ancient to modern musical forms. We also love Baroque music which traditionally use smaller-scale orchestras compared to our modern much larger orchestras.

My listening room is biased to being 'live', compared to overly damped, 20 feet by 32 feet with an 8 foot ceiling. What the 2 watt Yamamoto brings to the music is a transparent and holographic presentation, helping the Lowthers to sound very refined in the upper frequency range. Voices sound incredibly 'present', instruments have an 'alive' textural and tonal depth, the overall sound field is extremely rich. Open baffle penetrates and saturates the entire room, treating the space as if you were ‘inside' a baffle.

To equate listening to music through particular equipment with metaphors of transportation vehicles and their parts belies the concerns of at least some 'audiophiles' who think in terms of mechanical power and scale, rather than instrumental tonal color, pulsating rhythms, textural detail, and a spatial being-there 'presence'. Also to use the term 'little girl' as a metaphor for small-scale suggests a drift into sexist thinking. I hope the poster is not implying that little girls are in any way weaker compared to a little boys.

However, there are many factors that need to be addressed if someone wants to experiment with low-watt systems. I had to push my budget for a pair of high sensitivity drivers; the Lowthers cost $2600, several magnitudes higher than I have ever spent on a speaker before. That is one of the reasons I stayed with the DIY approach and redesigned my own simple open baffle speakers. Interestingly, after listening to open baffle for a while, Deborah developed an aversion for boxed speakers. For her the 'box' colors the sound too much and limits the illusion of a rich 3-dimensional highly saturated musical presentation. Here the example of ‘coloration’ is not the amplifier circuitry but the ‘box’.

Deborah and I have a great deal of experience listening to live un-amplified voice and instruments in many kinds of rooms. For example, we attend live performances for a few weeks each year at the Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara, a highly esteemed music school. There, several rooms of different dimensions are used for the performing students and world-class teachers. One result is that Deborah developed a very acute sense of the role played by the room in what one hears. She has become convinced that what one hears from their audio system is room dependent. When your partner is also an acute listener, Deborah loves our audio system even more than I do, there is less room for self-delusion in what one actually hears.

Opinions about audio equipment and what they can do to get us closer to musical bliss are wonderful. I enjoy reading the opinion of members of this forum, dedicated to sharing ideas around the low-watt system approach. If low-watt systems are not your thing, it is quite understandable, since there are many ways to achieve musical bliss using different audio technologies. However, if you knock this approach, used by thousands of highly knowledgable and experienced music lovers the world over, by attempting to advance the idea that you 'know' what good audio is all about, you are merely exposing your lack of knowledge and experience.

Wishing Everyone Joy and Happiness for the New Year. ~ Richard 
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Folsom on 23 Dec 2018, 09:24 pm
Here's a more complicated thing that would be nice to list speakers on...

Efficiency. For example many single driver units are very efficient. They can be rated at 85db and still get loud on 15w, where as an inefficient speaker at 87db on 15w can be stuck in the mud and never achieve much volume.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 24 Dec 2018, 05:09 am
Hi Richard,
Good to see you posting here again :thumb:
I agree with you, a few years ago I contacted Eminence about the 15A electric efficiency, the next day a friendly email from Mr.Anthony informed me it was a huge η0=4.00% so this driver is fully suited to a small tube amp.

I would like to inform small tube amps fans that the ideal speaker for a flea amp is a 16 ohms FR driver as used in the hey days of audio when small tube amps ruling the audio shops, this modern habit of using 8 ohms speakers with flea amps is an awful idea, it does not allow the amp to offer the best dynamics and the SQ it can render.


As 16 ohms FR are rare today one can use two drivers in serial, both to front or in a front and side position to more dispersion.
Hope this help.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 24 Dec 2018, 07:55 pm
Hi FullRangeMan ~ It is equally nice to read all of your posts, always interesting insights and highly informative.

Yes, I was into audio beginning when I was 12 years old. My uncle put together a lovely system using Wharfedale co-axial drivers and of course a tube amp, this was many years before Solid Sate circuits were invented. I heard it and was transformed. 16-ohm drivers ruled the day and were a perfect match for low watt amplifiers.

The Lowther PM5 Alnico/Ticonal drivers are 16 ohm, a very important factor in their satisfying performance with my 2 watt Yamamoto flea amp. I had Shigeki Yamamoto replace his standard 8-ohm output transformers with 16-ohm transformers. I ordered the amp directly from him in Japan. Shigeki agreed that the larger transformers would be a much better match for the 16-ohm Lowthers. That is why I suggest that a little research is very helpful when putting together a small watt system. The payoff is the potential for a heightened 'you-are-there' ultra-dimensional musical experience.

Here are 3 interesting posts from the esteemed Nelson Pass that go back to 2009 on the DIY forum. He also uses, or at least used, the Lowther PM5A with his 5 watt amplifier in large open baffle panels:

"I have just finished a detailed subjective comparison between the
PM6A, PM5A, and PM4A, all 16 ohm and all Alnico, in my Big Open
Baffles (BOB).

You may recall that they are very similar except for magnet size,
with the PM4 having the most monstrous magnet (It requires a big
butt brace) and the PM6A having the smallest.

All the drivers have comparable response curves in this system, where
they are crossed to a 15 inch woofer at 150 Hz and 12 dB/oct. All have
a mild notch filter at 4.5 KHz, -3db.

The PM5A edges out the other two for upper midrange naturalness,
but the PM4A had the older whizzer design without the rolled edge,
and I speculate that it would have equaled or perhaps bested the
PM5A.

Nevertheless, the PM5A is the one that sits in the system day-to-day."
---
"Typically I don't need more than 25 watts for the low end, and I usually
use about 5 watts for the top end.

Two drivers, FR and woofer.

Filtering, simple 12 dB/oct and a simple notch - anyone can do it.

Small footprint.... You got me there, but the BLH's that I like tend to
be on the large side.

Anyways, I like the lack of internal box reflections and the way a dipole
"illuminates" the room."
---
"There are a lot of possibilities, but the ones that work out the best
all seem to have high efficiency, light cones and low resonant frequency
down around 20 to 30 Hz. The inexpensive Eminence 15" alpha
and beta are good candidates. Martin King likes the alpha; I have
tried and liked the beta.

I biamp with an active crossover, and I can also EQ the bass response
which helps a lot. Given that, there a large number of woofers that will
do the job, and I have been able to get satisfactory results from SEAS,
PHL, Polydax, Vifa, and Fostex, and OEM parts out of Taiwan."
---

I don't use a notch filter on the Lowthers. Also, not having the resources or space that Nelson has I used what I had on hand to combine with the Lowther and Yamamoto. I stayed with it continuing to research and experiment, and I am happy to say that I am now in love with what this system delivers in musical bliss.

Merry Christmas, Merry Solstice, Happy New Year to all our friends on audio circle ~ Richard

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Dec 2018, 05:38 am
I have found that most speakers with no crossovers work well with low powered amps. At the SPL I listen to, even the low efficiency Zellatons worked well with a 2 watt SET amp..
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Folsom on 25 Dec 2018, 05:51 am
They can't be low efficiency and work on 2 watts. They could be low sensitivity, but not efficiency.

Single drivers without crossovers tend to be more efficient because crossovers can eat some power.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 25 Dec 2018, 10:33 am
Thanks Richard, you most kind as always.
I have noted at the DIY Audio forum the experts that wind his own OPTs are windy secondary in 15 ohms instead 16 as a tech reserve.
Merry Christmas to you and all your family :thumb:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Dec 2018, 12:35 pm
They can't be low efficiency and work on 2 watts. They could be low sensitivity, but not efficiency.

Single drivers without crossovers tend to be more efficient because crossovers can eat some power.

For the Zellatons, they are somewhat low. About 86db. But I listen in the 65-80 db range most of the time. That helps save my hearing and my marriage.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Slam on 8 Jan 2019, 03:26 am
https://nsmt-loudspeakers.com/content/model-50jamaica-speaker

Anyone try these yet? They claim 101 sensitivity
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 16 Jan 2019, 01:35 am
The words that accompany that speaker, Jamaica, leaves a lot of questions.

For instance, where do you find an 8” driver of that hi-efficiency (101> 98 dB efficiency for the pair or 93 dB each), that at the same time gets below 40 Hz and fits into such a small TL. And where do you find a dome tweeter efficient enuff. Phase coherence up to the XO is certainly possible (althou such a large centre-to-centre is going to cause combing issues in the top part of its band), but above that a tweeter on a 2nd order XO is likely 180° out of phase with the woofers..

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Jan 2019, 11:18 am
If 98 - 101dB they must be 16 ohms to parallel for nominal 8 ohms.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 16 Jan 2019, 04:31 pm
8Ω would make the task of finding drivers, fitting them in such a small “TL”, and getting any bass of them is a set of contradictory requirements. I am sceptical, but until they have actually been heard — who knows.

This is the same approach as the ZUs… bigAss midWoofers that naturally roll off with a (horn) tweeter to help out.

dave

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Slam on 16 Jan 2019, 08:34 pm
Yeah it seems too good to be true, but I’m no speaker designer...

Just wondering if anyone had any first hand experience with them.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Jan 2019, 08:35 pm
The Zu remind me the wonderful coaxial PHY-HP 12'' Alcicos...
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 16 Jan 2019, 08:42 pm
Quote
the wonderful coaxial PHY-HP 12''

In my experience, not all that great.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 16 Jan 2019, 09:24 pm
It dont have the vintage Alnico kind of sound?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 16 Jan 2019, 11:20 pm
Not that i am familiar with… and with so many other parts in a speaker contributing to the sonics, it would be hard to say what “alnico sound” is.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 17 Jan 2019, 02:54 pm
It is great, much better than Ferrite and better than Neo, they have wonderful over tones.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 2 Mar 2019, 09:46 pm
It is an interesting question whether or not speaker magnets have their own intrinsic sound. As dave points out 'so many other parts in a speaker (are) contributing to the sonics'. Admittedly, I don't have enough experience with various drivers to have a helpful overview. However, I am currently using the Lowther PM5A Alnico drivers and there is a 'sound' that I think I can identify with these drivers that seems to fit FullRangeMan's perception that 'they have wonderful overtones.' Namely that the sound of instruments reproduce as deep, rich, resonate and present, voices sound very human and as FullRangeMan suggests, there is a noticeable lingering of diminishing played or sung tones that in their transparency can be thrilling. The all-over effect is noticeably un-mechanical; the entire complex of electronic equipment used to deliver the sound seems to disappear.

Before I ordered the PM5A's from the then Lowther American dealer Jon ver halen, I had several lengthy conversations with him about each of the Lowther line of drivers. I was interested in trying to match what I was looking for in terms of 'sound' to which drivers offered by Lowther. He unequivocally felt that the magnets do in fact affect the sound of drivers and having heard many of the Lowther offerings which used essentially the same parts but with different magnets, felt that the Alnico magnets offered a special 'sound' that he found irreplaceable. He characterized the Alnico magnets used in Lowther drivers allowed for a deeper immersion into the musical space, a more relaxed, less edgy perspective.

So does the application of Alnico magnets actually contribute to the 'softening' of the sound, what some audio writers describe as a 'rounder' presentation, meaning the leading edge of transients are less strident, less mechanical? Definitely less mechanical sounding in my application.

I think it is not too much of a stretch to say that generally younger music/audio lovers may lean more into wanting every sound on a recording highlighted, and they are not all that bothered by the sound being etched somewhat if it means being able to hear every detail. And it could be also said that older music/audio lovers like myself are much more comfortable with a more 'musical' presentation, forgoing ultimate detail in favor of an all-over less-clinical and more emotionally involving musical experience. OK, having said this I expect that many people will be quite unhappy with my 'opinion'.

To help give a balanced sense of this, the designer of the German line of speakers, Voxative, a kind of copy-cat version of the Lowther drivers, Ines Adler, does not think using Alnico magnets 'adds anything to the sound' of her Lowther-like drivers. No doubt Ines, with whom I have corresponded with several times in the past, feels her drivers are more refined than the essentially older designs of the Lowther. I could not afford her comparable drivers when I purchased the Lowther PM5A, but I am extremely happy with the Lowthers given my current set-up.

It is raining in Ojai, California today which is a blessing beyond words, a benediction after the horrifying yet hauntingly mysterious fire of last year.

With Warmest Friendship ~ Richard

Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 3 Mar 2019, 10:05 pm
Hi Richard,
Nice to know you are with Lowthers, you will find Alnico magnets especially musical with Triodes or EL34/KT88 SE as Decware SE34 Rachel or Inspire amps.

How you are in the sunny state of CA I fell you not need to go so far to German drivers, I have a small room so I choose the AN Classic10Alnico but I regret not have to go the Super15Alnico now.

Other interesting great option are the vintage Zenith 49CZ852 for an OB.
http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/zenith-49cz852.html
However you may wish add an Bass Reflex woofer as Beyma 15P80Nd in a 150L ducted box under 200 or 300Hz.

I think field coils dont worth the price(hi) and the extra power supply expense, since Alnico already this good, there is many secrets in windy a FR audio coil that are unknow today by speakers makers that made buy a field coil FR a risk.
Hope this help.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 9 Mar 2019, 09:55 pm
Hi FullRangeMan ~

What kind of cabinet or panel are you using for your AN Classic10Alnico's? Also what is your amplifier?

After deciding to not purchase the French Supravox field coil drivers for several years, I finally purchased a pair from a nice gentleman in England who allowed me to return them. I was very disappointed in the sound. And what is worse I hated having to use an electrical device to shape the current in order to 'charge' its electro-magnets. The 'invention' of using stand-alone autonomous magnets was an important development in speaker design and a blessing.

There is no comparison between the Supravox sound and the rich and spacious performance of the Lowther PM5A, at least in my experience. Perhaps my other components were incompatible at that time.

Also, what do you feel you are missing using the AN Classic10Alnico's that the larger Super15Alnico will deliver?

Have a lovely day ~ Richard
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Mar 2019, 12:42 am
Iam using a 180L Bass Reflex I designed myself and a cheap local made 6C33 SE, I can send the box plans to you for free if you want build.

I never listened the 15'' but I suppose the bass and mid bass is much more rich due the huge cone.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Bemopti123 on 10 Mar 2019, 03:16 am
Hi FullRangeMan ~

What kind of cabinet or panel are you using for your AN Classic10Alnico's? Also what is your amplifier?

After deciding to not purchase the French Supravox field coil drivers for several years, I finally purchased a pair from a nice gentleman in England who allowed me to return them. I was very disappointed in the sound. And what is worse I hated having to use an electrical device to shape the current in order to 'charge' its electro-magnets. The 'invention' of using stand-alone autonomous magnets was an important development in speaker design and a blessing.

There is no comparison between the Supravox sound and the rich and spacious performance of the Lowther PM5A, at least in my experience. Perhaps my other components were incompatible at that time.

Also, what do you feel you are missing using the AN Classic10Alnico's that the larger Super15Alnico will deliver?

Have a lovely day ~ Richard

Almost about 14 years ago, I went to NJ to listen to a pair of Supravox fieldcoils loaded into a pair of huge Brooks audio wooden horns that were made in some country in Asia.  I just don't know but I felt that the entire soundscape was compromised due to the lack of highs.  It just does not deliver the upper high frequencies as regular 8" Fostex or Lowthers do in spades.  Therefore, I felt that at least in the system I heard, it was a big disappointment.  Even the PHY-HP fullrange Alnico drivers, they usually tend to have a high frequency driver.....because they want to sell you a pair of expensive tweeters....perhaps the previous designer, RIP, felt that an 8" fullrange driver does have its compromises. 

The Supravox was the only driver I felt as missing the highs.   :thumb:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Mar 2019, 04:13 am
I met a writer who had a pair of 12'' German vintage field coils that had a speaker that heated the coil a lot, which prevented it from being heard more than 15 minutes.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Joe Frances on 10 Mar 2019, 04:28 pm
I would love to switch to a low wattage tube amp or a First Watt from Pass, or Sugden Class A, but I am looking to get lighter monitor size speakers, and my impression is that the kind of high sensitivity speakers you need for those types of amps are large and often heavy.  Frankly I am of an age when hiring to burly high school fellows to move speakers around on a dolly is not my idea of a fun afternoon.  Omega makes some relatively small speakers but I am not looking for that "style" of speaker, and the better ones that Louis has weigh over 30lbs and are pretty big. 

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: opnly bafld on 10 Mar 2019, 07:44 pm
How loud (spl) do you listen?

I have found @20 watt amps work for me with just about any speaker.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 10 Mar 2019, 07:53 pm
Many of the speakers we play with work well with PASS Class A amps. I have a SIT 3, and my ACA amps (both in stereo and bridged in mono) work well… it is very dependednt o how big your room is and how loud you play.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 11 Mar 2019, 06:12 pm
Hi Bemopti123 ~

Yes, that was the problem exactly, the musically important high frequencies were missing from the Supravox field coil drivers necessitating a tweeter, another expense and complication.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 11 Mar 2019, 06:43 pm
Hi Joe ~

You are a good candidate for building simple Open Baffle speakers. It is the need for constructing rigid cabinet-style baffles that makes many speaker cabinets so heavy. A well-designed high sensitivity driver or rather 2 drivers, one 8" wide-range the other a larger 15" driver for bass duties mounted on a simple plywood panel with cut outs for the drivers and you are ready to enjoy the magic that a low watt tube or SS amplifier can deliver in musical bliss. The only other thing you need for the bass driver is a simple passive coiled inductor cross-over that will cut off the frequencies above, say 150 to 300 Hz, depending on how low your wide-range driver naturally goes.

Nelson Pass himself listens to music on this kind of simple construction. The room itself acts as the 'baffle' in Open Baffle speaker designs, saturating the room with rich sonic light. There are many high sensitivity drivers that can fit anyones budget that can serve this kind of simple yet incredibly effective speaker design.

The expense of most cabinet-style speakers is the cabinet itself. The drivers used are usually not the highest quality, and they are also usually not high sensitivity.

It was Nelson Pass who helped music lovers to recognize the potential for magic that low-watt amplifiers can deliver and so to re-think the idea that we need big watt amplifiers.

With Friendship ~ Richard
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: -Richard- on 11 Mar 2019, 07:14 pm
Hi FullRangeMan ~

"I never listened the 15'' but I suppose the bass and mid bass is much more rich due the huge cone."

Actually, I did hear the 15" AN Alnico on an Open Baffle speaker design and it sounded good, the bass and lower mid-range sounded rich. If my memory serves me faithfully the upper Frequencies were not necessarily transparent. I think generally speaking smaller wide-range drivers like your 10" AN Alnico have an advantage in reproducing more refined and transparent higher frequencies.

However, there are other ways to augment the bass of your 10" AN to sound a little richer, such as a simple Frequency Equalizer, which can be effective. Apple computers have a simple digital equalizer and some streaming services offer this option as well. Some amplifiers are 'voiced' to perform particularly well with lower frequencies. I had a lovely 7-watt tube amplifier for several years that had effective treble and bass controls. The bass really could be used to bring out a rich bass on any speaker.

Nelson Pass 'bumps' the base on his wide-range Lowthers, and Harbeth speakers are known for 'bumping' the bass as well to get them to sound richer.

Have a Lovely Day ~ Richard
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Shogun on 13 Mar 2019, 10:42 pm
I would love to switch to a low wattage tube amp or a First Watt from Pass, or Sugden Class A, but I am looking to get lighter monitor size speakers, and my impression is that the kind of high sensitivity speakers you need for those types of amps are large and often heavy.  Frankly I am of an age when hiring to burly high school fellows to move speakers around on a dolly is not my idea of a fun afternoon.  Omega makes some relatively small speakers but I am not looking for that "style" of speaker, and the better ones that Louis has weigh over 30lbs and are pretty big. 

Any suggestions?

Depend how low? Any Coherent Audio loudspeaker can be driven by a 3 watt 2A3 SET. With a 8 watt 300B, you got also Audio Note AN-E, but they're expensive.

I would suggest the Coherent Audio GR8 model. Don't confuse with the GR8 Slim model which is longer.

http://www.coherentaudio.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Model-8GR.pdf (http://www.coherentaudio.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Model-8GR.pdf)

https://coherentguy7.wixsite.com/coherentaudio (https://coherentguy7.wixsite.com/coherentaudio)
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 13 Mar 2019, 11:07 pm
Actually, I did hear the 15" AN Alnico on an Open Baffle speaker design and it sounded good, the bass and lower mid-range sounded rich. If my memory serves me faithfully the upper Frequencies were not necessarily transparent. I think generally speaking smaller wide-range drivers like your 10" AN Alnico have an advantage in reproducing more refined and transparent higher frequencies.
Hi Richard,
I have most bass wth my 10Alnico as I do the passive treatment I posted years ago:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100689.0
I mean say the Super15 could have a even bigger bass under 100Hz in a 13.6 box or even bigger enclosure, but it dont fit my room, in OB the Super15 bass may dont have slam but as you say the bass was good, I imagine how good it could be inside a suited box.

So I must thankyou for the related information on the 10Alnico, I more happy now, I also have to thanks thats car wood blanket, it increased the bass hugely and cost a bargain about $10 per kilo.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Swann36 on 28 Apr 2020, 05:32 pm
I've Klipsch Quartets (92) driven by Minute EL34 tube amp its 10wpc Class A .. thoughts do i qualify for low wattage with this ?

Either way this forum is of great interest as i also have some Infinity Quantum Jrs (78) vintage they are 4ohm i believe so not sure if its good to drive them through the tube amp ?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Chaplir on 8 Jul 2020, 01:45 am
I have Klipsch Forte II’s with Crites xovers and titanium tweeter diaphragms in use with 6 watts per channel.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: dalton on 15 Jul 2020, 12:17 pm
I've heard the RP-600m . (Subjectively, no dbt) they have a good amount of detail. Pleasant sound. A little bit of chestiness in the low mids and not a whole lot of bass support. It's not a bad speaker. Its stregnth is that it knows what "not to do". So what it can't do, it smartly does not.
Personally I would take the Emotiva T zero (or t1) over it. I have heard the T2 which I thought provided better speed, soundstage, dynamics and bass. Their stregnth is that it provides that illusive "holographic soundstage" that people like.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: whoopycat on 24 Jun 2021, 09:24 pm
I will second Coherent speakers in Canada.  My 6-10 watt amps drive my Model 10's with ease and my Coherents are only rated about 94db efficient.

I am a big fan of Zu speakers which have higher sensitivity specs but honestly I think the Zu's like a bit more power.  The Coherents seem quite happy with single digit power.  I know Frank at Coherent uses the MicroZOTL 1 watt amp to test his speakers in his shop.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: stereophe on 7 Aug 2021, 02:13 am
i think, If money is not a issue and want something better than a Lowther without their weakness.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: isaacc7 on 7 Aug 2021, 04:04 am
I use Phase Technology PC 3.5 speakers and sit about 8 feet away from them. They are rated at 90db sensitivity and I've used them with my current amp down around 4 watts with single ended 6v6 pentode. In the past I used a previous version (PC 3) with a push pull 6bl7 amp which I think is a little powerful than that.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Carlsbad on 26 Jan 2022, 02:19 pm
I am currently driving my 6' tall 145 lb floorstanders with a 10wpc Sophia Baby amp. 

Tekton speakers are somewhat controversial with people bashing them who have never heard them.  Do yourself a favor and listen.  I have the Encores that I picked up almost new from a guy who took the bashing personally.

Tektons are very efficient (numbers have been challenged by the bashers).  My Encore's published numbers are a sensitivity of 96.  I'd put this little integrated amp and floorstanders up against just about any system.  I paid $500 for the amp on ebay.  It has only one set of inputs and no remote.  simple, perfect amplification.

I have a slightly bigger amp coming, Ayon Spark Delta, with more features.  I only hope is sound as good as my small Italian lady.

Jerry
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Tyson on 26 Jan 2022, 04:28 pm
In my last post I mentioned the GR Research Super 7's and the Pure Audio Project speakers as good OB speakers for low watt amps. 

Since then I've acquired a pair of Spatial Audio X3s and will add them to the list of great speakers for low watt amps.  I've run it with a Type 45 amp (2 watts), a 2a3 amp (4 watts), a 300b amp (7 watts) and an EL84 amp (12 watts) and it sounded great with all of them.  Since the bass is self-powered with a 300 watt dedicated amp, the tube amps only have to drive the mids/highs, which are 97db efficient. 
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Chazz5 on 26 Jan 2022, 09:42 pm
I have Focal Aria 906 bookshelf speakers, rated as shown below. A First Watt amp rated at 25 watts with 1% THD at 1 kHz  into 8 ohms drives them just fine. So does a Quicksilver Integrated amp rated at 20 watts into any load from 2 to 8 ohms.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236025)


Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Jan 2022, 09:47 pm
I would recommend a speaker whose sensitivity is over 93db/w or higher. Many of the Klipsch speakers are very sensitive. The K-Horn is 104 db/w.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 26 Jan 2022, 09:57 pm
Often, these small amps are SE with high Rout, an amplifier that will be much happier with a loudspeaker with a flattih impedance curves.

I have seen NO measurement of a Klipsch impedance (with the stock XO) that anywhere near stisfies this metric.

They may be efficeint (typically rated about 3 dB than they really are), but not really suite dto a high Rout amplifier.

 Crites does some aftremarket XOs that fix this issue with some Klipsch.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Jan 2022, 10:26 pm
Often, these small amps are SE with high Rout, an amplifier that will be much happier with a loudspeaker with a flattih impedance curves.

I have seen NO measurement of a Klipsch impedance (with the stock XO) that anywhere near stisfies this metric.

They may be efficeint (typically rated about 3 dB than they really are), but not really suite dto a high Rout amplifier.

 Crites does some aftremarket XOs that fix this issue with some Klipsch.

dave


Paul Klipsch often said:  " What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier ".  Some of the best sound I've heard with Low Wattage is with high quality SET amps driving modified K-Horns.  Most speakers cannot match the K-Horn dynamics. 
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 26 Jan 2022, 11:12 pm
Quote
driving modified K-Horns

You will note "stock” in my comment.

They really need a DSP XO to get any sort of time coherence.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 27 Jan 2022, 12:52 am
Low Wattage setups often lend themselves to tweaks/modifications.  K-Horns do need modifications to get them to sound their best.  Once modified,  they can provide some serious dynamics with some degree of realism.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 27 Jan 2022, 01:25 am
K-Horns are limited to rooms that have a pair of usable corners in the right place so suited to few. They are also BIG.

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Freo-1 on 27 Jan 2022, 01:49 am
Yes. That's why they have great dynamics.  :thumb:
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: Chazz5 on 9 Jan 2024, 05:34 am
The Spendor A1 speakers are excellent with the FirstWatt F8 amp, rated 25 watts at 8 ohms. There is nothing "electronic" about the sound. They are sealed bookshelf speakers in the BBC tradition (but a modern product, not aping the BBC monitor rules). The system plays as loud as one could want in a room of 75 cubic meters.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JLM on 9 Jan 2024, 01:01 pm
K-Horns are limited to rooms that have a pair of usable corners in the right place so suited to few. They are also BIG.

dave

And even then only go down to 40 Hz.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Jan 2024, 02:32 am
What are the corners requirements to a K-Horn?
Its only clear space?
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: planet10 on 10 Jan 2024, 05:58 pm
What are the corners requirements to a K-Horn?
Its only clear space?

The corner extends the size of the mouth of the horn. Other examples are Frugel-Horns, Woden Monoliths, RonHorns…

dave
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 11 Jan 2024, 12:56 am
Nice, thanks 🌻
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: JLM on 13 Jan 2024, 02:10 pm
What are the corners requirements to a K-Horn?
Its only clear space?

Read once that the corners should extend 9 feet for full effect.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: donyue on 27 Mar 2024, 12:14 am
I'm pretty new to the high efficiency speaker low watt amp approach. 

That being said I have a new to me pair of Klipsch Lascala Industrial splits.  I need to replace the tweeters because one of them is non-functional, and I intend to replace a few crossover capacitors to bring them up to spec. 

I will be driving them with a McIntosh C250 amp, which I know is probably considered high powered for this thread, but the low power tube McIntosh amps are too expensive for me at this time. 

Currently I am looking for a good tube pre-amp with a nice phono stage that will pair well with the MC250 to provide me the low volume sound quality that I am after.  Maybe someday in the future I will purchase a low power (less than 30w) tube amp to power my LSI just to see if there is a huge difference or not.  I've been advised that the MC250 sounds very similar to the McIntosh tube amps of the same era.  I will likely be adding one or more powered subwoofers to fill out the bass response below 40 Hz.
Title: Re: What speakers work well for low watt amps?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 27 Mar 2024, 12:34 am
Read once that the corners should extend 9 feet for full effect.
Interesting. Thankyou for inform.