Beginning of the audio revolution?

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AJinFLA

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #40 on: 18 Feb 2017, 11:05 am »
Hey AJ, how are ya?  So what kind of adjustability can you get?  DSP, Frequency response, level controls, other?
Doing well sir, hope you are too.
The biggest one would be in the bass. As you know, that is the largest variable is the room/position and having adjustability at LF can mitigate boost from close proximity to front wall, or placement on say a desk, etc.
Or the opposite of having them well out into room where the bass can be a bit thin.
Active doesn't have to use DSP of course, but certainly can. That would allow even greater fine tuning if required, or desired.
Then of course there is the mix of passive/active, mainly active bass. Benefits of the above without the fretting about DSPs and wire loss, etc  :wink:

You know JohnR here did a nice little 2 way DIY active design a while back on Hifizine. I'm surprised more folks didn't give it a whirl, given the reasonable cost and use of high quality components. Same tweeter used in the Kii3 getting all the raves in the audiophile press. Go figure..

cheers,

AJ

JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #41 on: 18 Feb 2017, 12:12 pm »
Of course the trick as always is obtaining good performance in all measurably parameters and sounding good.  Studio professionals are susceptible to listener fatigue like the rest of us, so low colorations/distortions is essential in their work (more than for our entertainment).  I haven't heard "cold" as a description of studio monitors.  Most cheap active speakers are horrible on anyone's audiophile scale, OTOH most studio monitors are designed for nearfield use, can seem dry/un-involving, but are very revealing. 

But go to audiostream.com for a good selection of consumer oriented desktop/in-room actives.  I own the professional version of the next model up from their top rated 2-way $2000/pair wood veneered Dynaudio Excite X14A monitor (that I scored for $850/pair with black finish, now discontinued) and they sound very good.  I pair them with a computer and DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core DAC/preamp/DSP to make a complete system that I enjoy nearfield in a dedicated room.

Yes, most active monitors have bass and treble controls of some sort.  My Dynaudio BM5 Mk III also have midrange controls.

Passive mid/high's plus active bass - most do that with passives and something called a subwoofer (or two).

AJ, do you have a link to that Hifizine article of John's speaker?

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #42 on: 18 Feb 2017, 12:42 pm »
Of course the trick as always is obtaining good performance in all measurably parameters and sounding good.  Studio professionals are susceptible to listener fatigue like the rest of us, so low colorations/distortions is essential in their work (more than for our entertainment).  I haven't heard "cold" as a description of studio monitors.  Most cheap active speakers are horrible on anyone's audiophile scale, OTOH most studio monitors are designed for nearfield use, can seem dry/un-involving, but are very revealing. 

But go to audiostream.com for a good selection of consumer oriented desktop/in-room actives.  I own the professional version of the next model up from their top rated 2-way $2000/pair wood veneered Dynaudio Excite X14A monitor (that I scored for $850/pair with black finish, now discontinued) and they sound very good.  I pair them with a computer and DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core DAC/preamp/DSP to make a complete system that I enjoy nearfield in a dedicated room.

Yes, most active monitors have bass and treble controls of some sort.  My Dynaudio BM5 Mk III also have midrange controls.

Passive mid/high's plus active bass - most do that with passives and something called a subwoofer (or two).

AJ, do you have a link to that Hifizine article of John's speaker?

http://johnr.hifizine.com/2013/07/hifizine-active-two-way-speaker-proposal/

http://www.hifizine.com/2013/09/the-mini-convertible-active-loudspeaker-design/

http://johnr.hifizine.com/2014/04/the-convertible-active-loudspeaker-revisited/

John's articles are comfortably free of subjective folklore and gets down to the nitty gritty! Nicely done.

If I had a need for those speaker designs, I would be building them honestly, even though I'm a large waveguide junkie  :wink:.

Welcome back AJ!

Best,
Anand.

JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #43 on: 20 Feb 2017, 12:46 pm »
Thanks Anand.

smargo

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #44 on: 20 Feb 2017, 05:17 pm »
Have you heard active speakers?  As I noted above, it is no contest, active wins!  The advantages of going active are huge and undeniable.  Naturally there are poor/cheap examples of active (just go to any Guitar Center), so look for a more fair example, like the well respected Neumann KH310A ($4500/pair, 10"x12"x15" 3-way monitor, 34-21,000 Hz, 116 dB maximum output at one meter).  Some DIY active, but they're competing with the resources of big companies and their results are inefficient, bulky, and expensive.  The Orion may be the best known example this.

I've considered myself an audiophile for 40 years yet don't automatically buy into the more/bigger boxes and the more complex the better concept.  In fact audiophile purists, like SET/single driver fans, have the opposite goal.  (BTW single driver speakers are active by default.)  The term you picked for audiophiles: obsession is the right word, it means being persistently troubled.   Studio folks simply go with what works and don't fixate on a thousand quirks or details that are frankly insignificant. 

I'll admit putting the amp inside the speaker may be less than ideal, but it does eliminate speaker cables, and most speakers already have the crossover inside.  BTW there are a few active designs that use a separate compartment or a separate cabinet if that's a concern but then you start to trade off one advantage for another. 


One point not brought yet is the (male-centric) hunt.  Audiophiles really enjoy researching, shopping, auditioning, and discussing each part of the system as well as assembling their own unique combination of gear.  More and more active speakers have a built-in DAC and are even wireless, thus the loss of more components and almost all cords.  Thus the in-room system begins to boil down to source + speakers + room, thus the hunting aspect of this past time is being lost. 

Another "quality" that gets lost in the move towards active design relates to pride and prestige.  Cost savings of active can be substantial.  As I alluded to above, cost can be reduced by 75% or more with little if any loss of sonic attributes.  It must really irk those who have invested $$$$$ to have their system compared with vastly less expensive, much smaller, and ridiculously simple active systems bought by those who lack all their now obsolete technical knowledge and deep pockets.

Finally, this revolution (depending on how much it catches on) threatens not only consumers who have much invested in passive technology, but much of the audio industry and of course will be pooh-poohed by the establishment (what happens in all revolutions).  Even the DIY community will be largely put out of business.

if you knew what amp was powering the speaker - that would go a long way - (no secrets) - if you had easy access to the amp inside the speaker - that would also alleviate fears - if you could switch amps that would be helpful as well - If everything was transparent and easy - it would alleviate fears and make it more in vogue

JohnR

Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #45 on: 20 Feb 2017, 05:39 pm »
I'm not so sure about "revolution" but consider the kids who go from earbuds to a bluetooth speaker to wanting something that sounds better. To my mind, that last bit qualifies them as "audiophiles." Give them something to swap in for the bluetooth speaker, sounds a thousand times better, and is reasonably priced, and the sale is made. (JMHO)


Early B.

Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #46 on: 20 Feb 2017, 06:25 pm »
Ten years from now, someone will post on AC about the active speaker audio revolution and we'll be making the same posts to debunk it.

JohnR

Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #47 on: 20 Feb 2017, 06:28 pm »
Hm, to be honest, that seems to me to be a rather conceited view, that AudioCircle somehow represents or is even representative of audiophiles as a whole.

Charles Calkins

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #48 on: 20 Feb 2017, 09:00 pm »

  Hi Guys:

     Some years ago Emotiva had an active speaker room at RMAF. Sounded pretty good. They were like bookshelf speaker size.
     
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JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #49 on: 20 Feb 2017, 10:28 pm »
  Hi Guys:

     Some years ago Emotiva had an active speaker room at RMAF. Sounded pretty good. They were like bookshelf speaker size.
     
                                                                          Cheers
                                                                         Charlie

Yes, I believe they make the rounds to all the big U.S. audio shows.  Frankly they are only a "good" representation of active monitors.  But being rather low end price wise active speakers are going have a hard time getting a proper shake at shows or with the press.

JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #50 on: 20 Feb 2017, 10:56 pm »
if you knew what amp was powering the speaker - that would go a long way - (no secrets) - if you had easy access to the amp inside the speaker - that would also alleviate fears - if you could switch amps that would be helpful as well - If everything was transparent and easy - it would alleviate fears and make it more in vogue

Well that would pretty much undo the whole concept, eh?  But there are a few examples along that line of thinking.  PCM used to offer passive speakers with attachable Bryston power amps (that turned them into powered speakers, like the Digital Amp Company's In-Line Maraschino Cherry Amplifiers, the idea being to eliminate the speaker cable.  The well respected 2-way Munro Sonic Egg 150 monitors are (you guessed it, egg shaped low resonance/reflectivity ported cabinets) with 4 channels of amplification housed in a separate cabinet connected by special cables (and you'll have to shell out $3000 USD for them - sorry couldn't resist).  Note that the smaller/cheaper Munro Sonic Egg 100 monitors also use a separate amplifier cabinet but is only a powered speaker.

Keep in mind that the concept of active speakers are superior to passive or powered speakers.  Powered speakers schematically  are no different than passive speakers with a power amp while active speakers have a low voltage crossover and each driver has a dedicated channel of amplification directly connected to it (see above posts for some of the advantages of active design).  Powered speakers do save the amplifier cabinet and if inside each speaker the speaker cable as well, plus it allows the speaker manufacturer to select the amp (who is in a better position to know best than the consumer).

Charles Calkins

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #51 on: 21 Feb 2017, 12:15 am »

   Hi Guys:
   Here I am again asking about active speakers. From what I've been trying to learn I think that active speakers I've read about
   are designed to work and be controlled by a PC or cell phone or some other electronic gadget.
   Could I just hook an active speaker up to a preamp? How big of an active speaker would I need to replace
   floor standing full range passive speaker?
                   
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AJinFLA

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #52 on: 21 Feb 2017, 01:30 am »
Could I just hook an active speaker up to a preamp?
Yes.

How big of an active speaker would I need to replace  floor standing full range passive speaker?
Depends on your particular LF requirements (how deep/loud).

JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #53 on: 21 Feb 2017, 12:10 pm »
Charlie,

Frankly active monitors are typically designed for desktop sort of environments and it's hard to find reports of "in-room" use (it's not easy for any smaller mid/woofer to "fill a room" or not sound like it's making "over there" presentation).  The problem for audiophiles in doing research is that nearly all active speakers 2-way monitors are used in studio work (so most of the reviews are very well written but aimed at that clientele) along with a lack of consumer acceptance.  The two best sources for reviews of active monitors are SoundOnSound.com and AudioStream.com.  And here are a few consumer oriented articles:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro1_e.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro2_e.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0403/
http://www.audioundone.com/8-advantages-of-active-crossovers-douglas-self
http://www.transaudiogroup.com/atcforums/index.php?topic=3.0

If you can live without some of the audio hunting lifestyle and displaying the associated trophies, if you are more of a music lover than a gear head, and if you like saving money/space you are a good candidate for active monitors. 

JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #54 on: 23 Feb 2017, 01:32 am »

Letitroll98

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #55 on: 23 Feb 2017, 03:21 am »
Some good reads there JLM.  Didn't agree with everything said, I have speakers with 1st order crossovers that are sweet, detailed and dynamic all at the same time, but there was so much good info I didn't mind a bit.  Not done with the first group and now you throw more, jeez.

And I think I should say I'm not against active speakers at all, heard some pretty good ones.  I just don't think passive speakers will be taking a backseat anytime soon, for the reasons detailed by you and others.  I don't judge that a bad or good thing, it just is.  But as a recommendation for any type of new setup, second system, new audiophiles, whatever, active speakers have to be in the mix.

Tone Depth

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #56 on: 23 Feb 2017, 03:25 am »
Here's an active speaker system that might meet some needs for a secondary system:  http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=PowerPlay%20Monitors

Doublej

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #57 on: 23 Feb 2017, 12:13 pm »

JLM

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Re: Beginning of the audio revolution?
« Reply #58 on: 23 Feb 2017, 12:19 pm »
Doublej,

Just ran across it on the net yesterday.  Guess great minds do think alike, even if one of them is slow and forgetful.   :roll: :oops:


Tone Depth,

That would make for one sweet 2nd system.  Have seen them at shows, but haven't heard them.  Add a couple of subwoofers and you'd have a really nice full blown system.


Letitroll98,

There are some super high-end "audiophile applicable" self contained active designs out there, like B&O 90, Devialet Phantom, and from Meridian, PMC, and ATC, so not just for newbies or 2nd systems.