What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?

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BobRex

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #20 on: 11 Feb 2015, 07:09 pm »
Imagine you are listening on my speakers (95db-98db 1w/1m) and the amplifier is running at about 5 watts when there is a sharp hit on the snare drum and you need more. In a really well recorded piece with little compression the attack on that snare may be ten to fifteen db higher than the ambient level. That means for that moment you need not 5 watts but 50-200 watts. Granted a really good tube amp will give you a LOT more than rated power for those split second dynamics but if your taste runs to well recorded music with percussion and you like to turn it up then there is a reason for all that headroom. 

For some reason, these numbers always give me gas.  Let's look at it another way.  In a "typical" listening room, with the speaker to listener distance of 10-12 feet, how much volume (SPL) is lost due to distance?  I know the math, but what is reality vs. theory?  Lets use your scenario with a pair of Ulysses.  With 5 watts I'm going to assume an average listening level of 98dB to meet your wattage goals.  Now 98dB average is TOO DAMN LOUD - sorry I had to shout over the "noise", and 112dB is downright dangerous.  If the average listening level is closer to oh, I dunno, 85dB (which is still TDL, just ask OSHA :)) then the amplifier would be using .5 watts and you would need 5-20 watts to maintain the same headroom.  Drop the average level to 75dB (and now I won't have to shout, just raise my voice a little) you could get by with dynamic peaks of around 95dB and run with just 2 or 3 watts, maybe a nice little 2A3 amp. 

I would also think that thermal compression is going to occur in your example, so some chunk of that power is just dumped as heat, aka wasted power.

Now I realize that changing the room size will impact these numbers, as will the dynamics of the program, but how is your original scenario not TDL?

vortrex

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #21 on: 11 Feb 2015, 07:17 pm »
I had 22 tube watts with my Pans in a 19' x 14' room and it was amazing.  I don't get the desire for all those watts either.

aldcoll

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #22 on: 11 Feb 2015, 07:55 pm »
I had 22 tube watts with my Pans in a 19' x 14' room and it was amazing.  I don't get the desire for all those watts either.

I don't desire the watts.  But I want the sound or the amp and it just happens to make the watts.  I don't need ALL of the watts but the 50-90 watt solid state line up is limited.

I have asked several folks their opinion and I will use Modwright as a example.  the 100SE is Mosfet and the 150 isn't.  diffrent Sounds.

And I will admit I am short on all the Science and digits (out side of the price tag) and I am looking for a sound.  Why does Boulder build their monsters?  Yes there might just be a need for MASSIVE wattage but my guess there is some Male envy?  :scratch:

Audioclyde

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #23 on: 12 Feb 2015, 12:18 am »
I've powered my DA-RMa's with a 100wpc Enlightened Audio Design solid state amp, the very good Thor Audio TPA30 monos (EL34 based tube amp), an inexpensive but darn good Class D amp, a 300B integrated,  3 wpc 45 based SET amp, currently an around 4 wpc 2A3 SET amp, and soon a pair of Audio Note Quest Silver 300B mono amps.

So while I haven't necessarily tried a great higher powered ss amp (although the little EAD I listed first is darn good), I very much prefer the sound I get with the 'flea powered SET amps I've had. 

Randy

Quiet Earth

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #24 on: 12 Feb 2015, 12:33 am »
Hey Randy,
Which Class D amp did you use? Kind of curious about those right now.....

Audioclyde

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #25 on: 12 Feb 2015, 01:08 am »
Hey Randy,
Which Class D amp did you use? Kind of curious about those right now.....

A modded/upgraded TBI Millenia MG3 (amp is topic of a long thread and a demo tour here on AC from a couple years ago). Surprisingly good for the low price--I've hung on to mine for 'emergency' duty-- it isn't going to tempt you to give up those Silver Signatures (I tried to add a smiley face!!)

Quiet Earth

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #26 on: 12 Feb 2015, 02:44 am »
Thanks man! Yes, I remember that thread now.  Just trying to stay current and keep an open mind. Here's that smiley for you:  :D

  8)

Daedalus Audio

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #27 on: 12 Feb 2015, 03:59 am »
Here is that PDF

http://www.daedalusaudio.com/images/loudspeaker%20sensitivity.pdf

The biggest variable here is what one listens to and at what volume level. That is why there is no 'correct' answer as to how much power is enough. That is one reason we design these to work with such a wide range of amplifiers and to have a consistent tonality at pretty much any volume. Even in this paper they are making assumptions as to what constitutes a "reasonable" listening volume.

thanks,
lou

nnck

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #28 on: 12 Feb 2015, 04:14 am »
I have both a Modwright KWA100SE and a Music Reference RM200II amp which i use with my Daedalus DA1.1 speakers. Both work quite well and I'm pleased with them both.

Although I have never heard the KWA150SE, I have read some some reviews comparing it to the 100SE. It seemed that the 100SE was considered to have more of a 'tube sound' than the 150SE. As to how much more of a tube sound - I dont know. But I think this was mentioned in the 6 Moons reviews and I may have read it from another source as well. So depending what sound you want, that might help you.

BobRex

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #29 on: 12 Feb 2015, 01:55 pm »
Here is that PDF

http://www.daedalusaudio.com/images/loudspeaker%20sensitivity.pdf

The biggest variable here is what one listens to and at what volume level. That is why there is no 'correct' answer as to how much power is enough. That is one reason we design these to work with such a wide range of amplifiers and to have a consistent tonality at pretty much any volume. Even in this paper they are making assumptions as to what constitutes a "reasonable" listening volume.

thanks,
lou

I'm familiar with the paper, I saw it many years ago when it was published / reviewed in HIFI+.  That issue even came with a little calculator to determine power needs. 

Yes, Michaelson made a number of liberal assumptions, but he covers himself well.  His basic premise is to determine the higherst SPL, subtract the speaker efficiency, then subtract looses due to distance.  The resulting figure is dB is what you need from an amplifier.  I've always had problems with the maximum SPL based on an orchestra.  What works in a performance hall where the sound is coming into a large audience space and from a largish wave launch, doesn't translate directly into a listening room that's smaller by a magnitude or 2, and being being produced by a couple of tiny transducers. Something's gotta give. Additionally, the loss due to distance figure is based upon a point source speaker - change that and the numbers change.

It was rather ironic that a manufacturer that had just come out with a 1KW amplifier, needed to justify the rationale for coming out with a 1KW amplifier in the first place.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #30 on: 12 Feb 2015, 05:46 pm »
I'm familiar with the paper, I saw it many years ago when it was published / reviewed in HIFI+.  That issue even came with a little calculator to determine power needs. 

Yes, Michaelson made a number of liberal assumptions, but he covers himself well.  His basic premise is to determine the higherst SPL, subtract the speaker efficiency, then subtract looses due to distance.  The resulting figure is dB is what you need from an amplifier.  I've always had problems with the maximum SPL based on an orchestra.  What works in a performance hall where the sound is coming into a large audience space and from a largish wave launch, doesn't translate directly into a listening room that's smaller by a magnitude or 2, and being being produced by a couple of tiny transducers. Something's gotta give. Additionally, the loss due to distance figure is based upon a point source speaker - change that and the numbers change.

It was rather ironic that a manufacturer that had just come out with a 1KW amplifier, needed to justify the rationale for coming out with a 1KW amplifier in the first place.
Good points and a 1KW amplifier begs a speaker that can handle that,eh?
 
 As you say he covers himself well and I only keep this on the site because it shows the basic math well.  Dynamic range is a big part of music and limited by many factors in the recording and playback process.

Bottom line is what sounds right to you in your own home.

Scottdazzle

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #31 on: 12 Feb 2015, 09:11 pm »
I use a Zesto Bia 120 and a ModWright KWA 150SE with my Athenas. Both work spectacularly well with them.

easystreet

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #32 on: 13 Feb 2015, 02:30 am »
I use a Crayon CFA 1.2 integrated amp with my Athena v.2. The Crayon puts out about 75 watts into the steady 6 ohm load of the Athenas. It is a solid state amp from Austria. See 6moons for a good review. It is the best pairing I've heard with my Athenas. Extremely good bang for the buck at $6k. Crayon just came out with a less powerful integrated that promises even better bang for the buck at about $3200.

Initially, I drove the Athenas with a 10-watt Shindo Cortese single-ended tube amp and a Shindo Monbrison preamp. This pairing produced some luscious, dense, immediate tone and was very musical. Together, these amps retail over $20k but did not prove as accurate, transparent, or ultimately satisfying as the Crayon. Still, there was absolutely no problem that I had with dynamics, headroom, or ability to play loud music loud.

I've also driven the speakers with a 15-watt Bakoon integrated solid state amp that was similar to the Crayon and is another good value.

I've heard the Ulysses with a 200 watt Modwright amp; this was another good pairing. And I've listened to jonbee's DA-RMAs with his very powerful N-Core amps and completely agree with him that the sound is transparent, fast, and conveys a sense of total ease, especially with complex music. Fantastic value.

Bottom line:  it is a testament to Lou's acumen as a designer that his speakers sound so damn good with so many disparate amps!

roboss38

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #33 on: 13 Feb 2015, 04:43 am »
For the last week, I've had my Argos v2 paired with a Pass Labs XA30.8. The XA30.8 is 30 watts of pure Class A power. The combination of the XA30.8, the Ref 5 SE, and the Argos is simply stunning. The XA30.8 will not be going back to Reno HiFi.

david12

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #34 on: 25 Feb 2015, 05:30 pm »
 A very interesting discussion, which seems to suggest you can use pretty much what you like, 3 watt SETs to 300+ of SS power. I think the key is quality needs quality. Lou's speakers are undemanding as far as specific amps are concerned, but they are revealing. In general, power costs money, I mean high quality power here. So a high quality 30 watt amp will drive Lou's speakers admirably, as will a 200 watt high quality amp. The latter is going to cost you so much more.

 I happen to like tubes and find it difficult to understand why you would use a SS amp. I know Modwright are good, but they don't produce a sound I happen to like. My DA-RMAs sound just wonderful with the ARC Ref 75 power amp, even better re tubed with KT150s, instead of 120's. It is just an exceptional amplifier and makes a wonderful sound with my speakers. If you get the chance, try a loaner 75 from a local dealer, with your speakers. I suspect you won't send it back.

roboss38

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #35 on: 25 Feb 2015, 05:54 pm »
A very interesting discussion, which seems to suggest you can use pretty much what you like, 3 watt SETs to 300+ of SS power. I think the key is quality needs quality. Lou's speakers are undemanding as far as specific amps are concerned, but they are revealing. In general, power costs money, I mean high quality power here. So a high quality 30 watt amp will drive Lou's speakers admirably, as will a 200 watt high quality amp. The latter is going to cost you so much more.

 I happen to like tubes and find it difficult to understand why you would use a SS amp. I know Modwright are good, but they don't produce a sound I happen to like. My DA-RMAs sound just wonderful with the ARC Ref 75 power amp, even better re tubed with KT150s, instead of 120's. It is just an exceptional amplifier and makes a wonderful sound with my speakers. If you get the chance, try a loaner 75 from a local dealer, with your speakers. I suspect you won't send it back.

In the end, I sent back the Pass Labs XA30.8 and put the Rogue Audio Stereo 100 back in the rack. I've got the Rogue running in triode mode, and it sounds wonderful with my Reference 5 SE and Argos. Maybe I'll demo a Ref 75, and see what that offers up. In the end, I've reaffirmed again that I'm a tube guy.

fwinston

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #36 on: 25 Feb 2015, 08:58 pm »
After auditioning at least half a dozen solid state and tube amps I chose the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature to drive my Daedalus Audio Ulysses V2 speakers. My prior amps were tube monoblocks so it was important to me to find an amp that excelled in the harmonic richness that tubes do so well along with having greater dynamics and bass weight and control that tube amps often struggle with doing well. The Signature amp does it all. The sound is as sweet and tonally fleshed out as my tube amps but with significantly better clarity, frequency extension, and bass control. I couldn't be happier.

audiotom

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #37 on: 5 Apr 2015, 09:08 pm »
I have tried three amps with my Daedalus Ulysses

Atmaphere MA1s mono blocks  Output TransformerLess. -100 watts scary black, decays on volume of various instruments, no grain.   Likes higher ohm loads

Audio by Van Alstine 300r.  Hybrid tube/ mosfet over design. 300 watts  (600 watts into 4 ohm). Strong bass, not as refined but good

A rare Doshi Jhor mono blocks showed up on audiogon while I was breaking in the V2 upgrade
80 watts of pull tube heaven

I have it paired with my Doshi Aalap preamp

Match made in Heaven

catastrofe

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Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #38 on: 6 Apr 2015, 02:26 am »
I ran my Ulysses with Atma-Sphere MA-1 mono-blocks in conjunction with Speltz Autoformers.  Sounded fantastic.

vinyl_lady

Re: What amplifier do you use with your Daedalus speakers?
« Reply #39 on: 6 Apr 2015, 03:28 am »
ModWright KWA 150 SE -- a match made in heaven :thumb: