CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read

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95Dyna

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #80 on: 10 Mar 2010, 07:56 pm »
  :o  "With a Bryston BDA-1 I couldn't distinguish between 16/44 and 24/192"  is not exactly the tag line Bryston would want for the next ad campaign!

OK Ted, now you have me confused.  Didn't you recently correct me (and I accepted your correction gracefully) on the 24/192 thing as it relates to SACD. :scratch:  Good example on the BDA-1, however.

werd

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #81 on: 10 Mar 2010, 07:57 pm »
OK Ted, now you have me confused.  Didn't you recently correct me (and I accepted your correction gracefully) on the 24/192 thing as it relates to SACD. :scratch:

I dont think he is referring to your posts Dyna

James Tanner

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #82 on: 10 Mar 2010, 08:04 pm »
  :o  "With a Bryston BDA-1 I couldn't distinguish between 16/44 and 24/192"  is not exactly the tag line Bryston would want for the next ad campaign!

I think it's important to try and differentiate between opinion and fact as best we can.

james

95Dyna

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #83 on: 10 Mar 2010, 08:04 pm »
I dont think he is referring to your posts Dyna

You have to go back to yesterday's posts where I associated 24/192 with SACD when I should have just used the words hi rez in a post that at the time didn't have anything to do with what's being discussed today.  Ted jumped in and advised me that I shouldn't use 24/192 when describing SACD.  I didn't argue as I felt he had more knowledge on the subject than I.

ted_b

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #84 on: 10 Mar 2010, 08:05 pm »
OK Ted, now you have me confused.  Didn't you recently correct me (and I accepted your correction gracefully) on the 24/192 thing as it relates to SACD. :scratch:  Good example on the BDA-1, however.

The link that James just referred to is an academic exercise, using one of James' BDA-1 DACs to test perception and hearing across 16/44, 24/48, 24/88.2 yadayada up to 24/192.  Nothing to do with SACD (the BDA-1 isn't a DSD DAC so SACD is not relevant in this sub-discussion).  I was not referring to your post.  This thread is about SACD and DVD-audio hearing, perception, etc.  In the DVD-Audio world and in hirez computer files the bit depth/sample rate of 24/192 is relevant...in SACD it is not. 

95Dyna

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #85 on: 10 Mar 2010, 08:10 pm »
The link that James just referred to is an academic exercise, using one of James' BDA-1 DACs to test perception and hearing across 16/44, 24/48, 24/88.2 yadayada up to 24/192.  Nothing to do with SACD (the BDA-1 isn't a DSD DAC so SACD is not relevant in this sub-discussion).  I was not referring to your post.  This thread is about SACD and DVD-audio hearing, perception, etc.  In the DVD-Audio world and in hirez computer files the bit depth/sample rate of 24/192 is relevant...in SACD it is not.

Thanks Ted.  I'm getting and education.  Just send me your bill. :thumb:

ted_b

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #86 on: 10 Mar 2010, 08:12 pm »
Thanks Ted.  I'm getting and education.  Just send me your bill. :thumb:

:)

werd

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #87 on: 10 Mar 2010, 08:17 pm »
The link that James just referred to is an academic exercise, using one of James' BDA-1 DACs to test perception and hearing across 16/44, 24/48, 24/88.2 yadayada up to 24/192.  Nothing to do with SACD (the BDA-1 isn't a DSD DAC so SACD is not relevant in this sub-discussion).  I was not referring to your post.  This thread is about SACD and DVD-audio hearing, perception, etc.  In the DVD-Audio world and in hirez computer files the bit depth/sample rate of 24/192 is relevant...in SACD it is not.

See if we came over to your board we would know all this.... hehe  8)

turkey

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #88 on: 11 Mar 2010, 01:16 pm »
  :o  "With a Bryston BDA-1 I couldn't distinguish between 16/44 and 24/192"  is not exactly the tag line Bryston would want for the next ad campaign!

It is if it implies that they do both well.

They might not want that if the BDA-1 did Redbook and then there was an add-on extra-cost module for everything else.


turkey

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #89 on: 11 Mar 2010, 01:51 pm »
turkey, I have to say that what you are engaging in here is telling people that they aren't hearing what they're hearing.  It's like telling me after I have run my car into a tree that I actually didn't because the breaks in the model car I was driving were designed to stop that car 30m before the tree.  The bark is off the tree and the front of my car is bashed in but there can't be anyway I hit that tree. :scratch:

I'm saying there is no proof that what you think you're hearing is actually what you're hearing.

If you ran your car into a tree there would be plenty of physical evidence that it happened.

Here's an example. I was once at this guy's house listening to his system. He had some rather goofy, but very expensive equipment, and he is very, very passionate about the products he sells. (He's a dealer.)

He was using these giant home-built speakers that were way too big for the room and just didn't sound very good. I mentioned that I thought the speakers sounded pretty harsh and over-bearing. He immediately said something like, "I know what it is! I can fix it!" So he went to these battery-powered power cords that he had, ones like firehoses, and he unplugged the power supply from one and said, "There! Listen now!"

He was very persuasive, and for a minute there I thought I heard the treble become tamed. But then I listened again and it sounded the same as it did before.

So I know that my hearing is fallible. I can hear things that are not there. Everyone is like that. Our minds often control what we hear. Without an objective, repeatable test, we simply can't trust our ears. There are too many other factors that might cause us to hear one thing as better than another when it isn't.

In addition, once you start doing real tests, you discover that much of what is "common knowledge" amongst audiophiles is simply not true.

I've done some tests that have opened my eyes. I had some friends come over and we listened to amps while my wife switched cables. We had matched levels and marked them on the preamp on masking tape. There was an Audio by Van Alstine amp, a Threshold amp, and a C-J amp. We found that we couldn't reliably tell the difference between the two SS amps. With the tube amp it was still unreliable, but we did a bit better.

We also did the same thing with a Threshold amp/preamp combo, AVA amp/preamp combo, and a Pioneer receiver. Once again, we couldn't reliably tell the difference.

Over the years I have done the same kinds of tests with wire, and had the same results.

There certainly is some equipment or wire where you can tell when it's in use. It does sound different. But I tend to think that isn't a good thing.

What I suspect is that, at this point, the designs and materials used in electronics can reliably produce equipment that is good enough in performance that it is not the limiting factor. You can build equipment that is better than needed, but you won't be able to hear the difference.

Speakers, recordings, and listening rooms are a different story. These are where the real differences are.

James Tanner

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #90 on: 11 Mar 2010, 06:05 pm »
I think the biggest problem we all have in assessing our audio gear is what I refer to as --- “Seduction of Expectations”

When you remove the subjective element you will find out a lot about yourself and how gross or subtle outside influences can affect your perceptions.  Even being part of a group will affect how your behavior will/can be altered.

I did an experiment once at a dealer’s where I hooked up the BDA-1 DAC and disconnected the up-sample circuit except for the light on the front panel.  So people could turn the light off and on and engage or disengage the up-sample circuit (so they thought) and comment on which they preferred.  Once the first person in the group said they preferred the up-sampler to be engaged the rest tended to agree and came up with comments on how the bass was better and how it had greater high frequency extension.

So we must be careful not to allow our expectations to overrule our experiences to the point where we arrive at conclusions ahead of the observed or not observed changes.

james

werd

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #91 on: 11 Mar 2010, 06:08 pm »
I think the biggest problem we all have in assessing our audio gear is what I refer to as --- “Seduction of Expectations”

When you remove the subjective element you will find out a lot about yourself and how gross or subtle outside influences can affect your perceptions.  Even being part of a group will affect how your behavior will/can be altered.

I did an experiment once at a dealer’s where I hooked up the BDA-1 DAC and disconnected the up-sample circuit except for the light on the front panel.  So people could turn the light off and on and engage or disengage the up-sample circuit (so they thought) and comment on which they preferred.  Once the first person in the group said they preferred the up-sampler to be engaged the rest tended to agree and came up with comments on how the bass was better and how it had greater high frequency extension.

So we must be careful not to allow our expectations to overrule our experiences to the point where we arrive at conclusions ahead of the observed or not observed changes.

james


 :lol: That is nasty..... i like it.  Did you come clean and let them know of your experiment?

James Tanner

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #92 on: 11 Mar 2010, 06:16 pm »
^^^

No I did not want to embarrass anyone – it was just an experiment I was running with the knowledge of the owner only.

James


werd

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #93 on: 11 Mar 2010, 06:17 pm »
I personally believe people don't give a shit. Its easy for them to comment on what is going on with more bass or better sound stage somehow. But it takes a lot of listening commitment and this is very much a hobby activity. Without the commitment, differences are just not apparent and its only because they really don't care to hear it. They think its high end waist of money. It stops them in their tracks  down the road of high end. But somehow they still continue to make their way on to sites like these and post.  :icon_lol:

gerald porzio

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #94 on: 11 Mar 2010, 06:47 pm »
Somehow they followed the leader. This will be pretty much the same time after time w/ unsighted opinions in a DBT or just BT as cited in this instance.

turkey

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #95 on: 11 Mar 2010, 07:08 pm »
Somehow they followed the leader. This will be pretty much the same time after time w/ unsighted opinions in a DBT or just BT as cited in this instance.

That's why you have each person write down their findings and not discuss them until the test is over.

turkey

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Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #96 on: 11 Mar 2010, 07:48 pm »
I personally believe people don't give a shit. Its easy for them to comment on what is going on with more bass or better sound stage somehow. But it takes a lot of listening commitment and this is very much a hobby activity. Without the commitment, differences are just not apparent and its only because they really don't care to hear it. They think its high end waist of money. It stops them in their tracks  down the road of high end. But somehow they still continue to make their way on to sites like these and post.  :icon_lol:

I know that in my case it's been a hobby for decades, but I also made a living off of my ears when I was younger and worked in live sound and also in the studio.

I've been convinced for at least a couple of decades that there wasn't much going on with wires. It was all a bunch of marketing BS and was started by that company whose name I can't mention or they'd sue. But I still thought that electronics sounded different, although I never heard the huge differences that the reviewers talk about in the magazines.

I had my suspicions about the topic after talking to a number of engineers and seeing the results of various tests. It wasn't until the last few years that I started doing some tests on my own with amps and preamps though. I quickly found out that the differences that I just _knew_ were there didn't show up reliably when I did a controlled test.

Last Fall I heard a couple of recordings that had been done simultaneously with different microphones (a pair of neumann vs. a pair of schoeps). The difference was quite noticeable. Once you knew what you were listening for, you could pick out one from the other, sight unseen. So it's not my ears that are keeping me from hearing differences between amps, nor is it the system I'm listening to. It's not the test methodology either.


Napalm

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #97 on: 16 Mar 2010, 03:34 pm »
[...]
I think they were concluding that the reason SACD sounded better had nothing to do with the 'format' used but the care taken by the engineers in mastering and producing it. [...]

IMHO it's all about the DAC processing and specifically the digital/analog filters in the player.

In the CD case, you want something like an ideal brick filter that cuts @ about 20kHz. This ideal filter is impossible to implement in practice. What we get is "close to ideal" filters that will have some kind of slope (roll-off) and will affect phase around the cut-off frequency. Unfortunately these effects are spread around the 20kHz mark and are affecting some audible frequencies too. These days we have many examples of CD players (or DACs) that will let you select from a set of predefined cut-off filters - so there's a greater chance that you'll find one acceptable to your ears.

In the SACD case, in case you bother to implement a filter, its cut-off frequency can be far away to the right of 20kHz. Thus any phase/slope effects of it would not touch the audible spectrum. In practice you will find that many different makes of SACD players sound pretty much similar on SACD discs but sound different with CDs.

In conclusion, what we really hear is the effect of the filters. I would even dare to say that for sound quality the brand of the DAC i.c. is less relevant than the quality of the filters implemented by the CD player manufacturer.

Would had Philips selected 64kHz instead of 44kHZ as sampling rate for CDs, the filter would had been implemented around 32kHZ with negligible side effects into the audible domain. And we wouldn't have much of these discussions now. We would be talking just channel separation, bass extension and definition, noise and other classical stuff.

Nap.  :thumb:


Napalm

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #98 on: 16 Mar 2010, 05:02 pm »
[...]
So I know that my hearing is fallible. I can hear things that are not there. Everyone is like that. Our minds often control what we hear. Without an objective, repeatable test, we simply can't trust our ears. There are too many other factors that might cause us to hear one thing as better than another when it isn't. In addition, once you start doing real tests, you discover that much of what is "common knowledge" amongst audiophiles is simply not true.[...]

Would some hard cold measurements like oscilloscope traces convince you about what I said about filters?

Go here:

http://www.avhub.com.au/ProductReview.aspx?MagazineID=5&ProductReviewID=301

and download the PDF from the link there.

Nap.  :thumb:

P.S. What's obvious at this point is that the CD format is a failure in the sense that in their choice of sampling frequency Phillips didn't allow enough headroom for a proper audible signal reconstruction within the limits of consumer electronics.
SACD fixed that but its benefits were poorly explained to the public. Advertising insisted on "extended frequency response" with average Joe thinking "I can't hear those high frequencies and my speakers don't reproduce them anyway".


Napalm

Re: CD vs SACD vs DVD-A - Long but interesting read
« Reply #99 on: 18 Mar 2010, 03:42 pm »
For those more inclined to maths, here's a good reading:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20203269/Interpolation-filters-for-oversampled-audio-DACs

Even if you're not math inclined, you could take a cursory look just to have an understanding on what Bryston was facing when designing their DACs.

Nap.  :thumb: