The unspoken thing about reviews

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Philistine

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #40 on: 19 Sep 2016, 01:54 pm »
There's a gamut of online reviews that range from the serious to the entertaining, here's a few extremes I picked out:
I lived in Germany for 8 years and regularly bought one of the monthly HiFi mags, they did something that most of the US based mags are scared to do (fear of advertiser backlash) - and give marks, and rank, equipment being tested.  I see they're now on line and in English:
https://stereo-magazine.com/
It's typical of the German cultural mentality to take this approach to reviewing, and is a good fit if you're data driven.
When I lived in the UK some of the mags regularly did 'shoot outs' of components from various manufacturers - again something most US mags are scared to do.

At the other end of the spectrum is 6Moons, Srajaen is becoming more flowery with each review but has the integrity about what he does, provides a level playing field, and is open about his commercial position.  I can see how his approach is 'like nails on a chalk board' if you're data driven, but his style sets out to review, educate, and entertain.  I get where he's coming from but it takes me about 3 read throughs to find out what he thinks :)

In between are the parasites we support (advertising budgets being costed into the sales price we pay), who have the, arrogance, stupidity and temerity to insult end customers by calling us amateurs on websites - when in reality they're Tone Deaf.

I can clearly understand the NuPrime position given this cast of characters.


 

Early B.

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #41 on: 19 Sep 2016, 01:59 pm »
Not necessarily.  Keep in mind that there are reviewers that actively choose what to review based on what they are interested in adding to their system as long as they can get a price discount from the manufacturer - often around half of retail.  It's agreed upon before the review takes place.  So the review just functions as an in-home trial period for something a reviewer was wanting anyway.  The only reason to send a unit back would be if it really didn't meet expectations.  And many manufacturers are happy to oblige, because upon return of the unit, they'd have to sell it as a demo or B-stock at major discount anyway.  And they know what the impression of a reviewer purchasing the unit does to strengthen the appeal among prospective buyers, so there's marketing value in it for them as well.  They usually also include agreements that the reviewer won't sell the unit second-hand for some period of time like 6 months or a year, to avoid reviewers actually profiting on generating buzz with their commentaries.

All that it speaks to me is that the reviewer found the unit worth buying at around 50% of retail, and that they expect they'll be able to recoup that cost easily selling used after a year or so, allowing them to invest in another review unit at that point.

A few years ago, I used to review audio gear for the now defunct Affordable Audio ezine. Manufacturers would send me demo gear to audition. It was fun. If I wanted to buy it (I never did, though), I'd get a discount because it's a demo product, and not for any other reason. There was a time when I received a component to review and I thought it sucked. I told the manufacturer it sucked and declined to write a review on it. Few writers are interested in writing a review of a product that sucks. By the way, I paid all of the postage to ship the products back to the manufacturers. I'm sure there are a handful of unethical manufacturers and reviewers out there, but they are likely to be the exception.   

Photon46

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #42 on: 19 Sep 2016, 05:50 pm »
Allow me the opportunity to rant about reviews:

They ("professional" and non) are vital for most of us in the age of internet and the dearth of bricks and mortar sales.  And shows, if you can go, are only good to veto equipment or a given company.  Granted, it's hard to put sound into words, but most are poorly written.  IMO reviews are technical papers and should be written as such, starting with an executive summary then substantiated in some sort of logical and concise pattern.  But too many appear to be written as a mystery novel (eventually hoping you'll reach the same conclusion) by a lonely soul suffering from diarrhea of the keyboard.  Some leave you wondering what they really thought of the piece.  And most reviews don't provide context (room, ancillary gear, comparisons to similar/familiar equipment, impressions using known pieces of music).

Rant off and thank you.

You know, I (and all who read reviews) feel your frustration at the inadequacies of reviews, but I don't think objective Joe Friday "Just the Facts Ma'am" reviews would convey too much that's meaningful about a product. Technical specs are fine, I appreciate John Atkinson of Stereophile for his contributions to their reviews. I look at the waterfall plots of speakers in every issue and marvel at how much cleaner those have gotten since they first started publishing them. But do they and all the other specs tell me how the speaker sounds? Nope, not much help. Trying to inform readers and review an audio component's ability to reproduce music is about as much a fool's errand as trying to write a review of dance or theatre performance or cooking. (Bad engineering is a different matter. That can be more easily conveyed in writing.) Just as one person's fantastic theatre performance or perfectly cooked meal is another's overwrought melodrama or underwhelming culinary experience, no one seems to agree as to what constitutes good sound or accurate reproduction. I appreciate when a reviewer brings some wit and writing skills to the page, but I agree that far too often the efforts seem inadequate, too long winded, or overly reliant on flowery adjectives that say little. I would love to hear reviews from those that rage against reviewers who can't hear and see how well they could convince us that their tastes and hearing are superior to the magazine writers they loath. I say that not to demean those posting on forums, but to make the point that just because you don't hear like someone else or share their tastes, doesn't necessarily mean that pro reviewer's hearing skills are deficient or unevolved. For my tastes, I really like TAS's Anthony Cordesman's writing style. Perhaps its his "real" job as a national security analyst that gives him that balance of factual statement and subjective description I like about his reviewing. In the end though, I think one just needs to regard professional reviews as entertainment and quit getting upset about whatever perceived lack of insight or hearing skills any given reviewer may have or lack. Lack of moral integrity on the part of reviewers is a different issue because companies' fortunes rise and fall on the unfortunate fact that readers DO invest too much credence in a reviewer's opinion.


JLM

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #43 on: 19 Sep 2016, 07:09 pm »
Sorry to give the wrong impression in my rant.  Guy13 has got my gist wrong.  I'm not thinking that reviews should be only technical specifications or plots (although several manufacturers, like Omega, provide almost nothing).  First I'd cut out all the irrelevant fluff (the weather, complaining about how many flights of stairs the gear has to be hauled up, excuses for not completing the review sooner, excessive verbiage, etc., etc., etc.).  Second start out with the basics, including the price (don't waste my time on uber expensive gear).  Third give context (the room, ancillary gear, music used, reviewer's audio tastes).  Fourth use known ancillaries, comparatives, and music.  Fifth compare to comparable gear.  And of course tell us how it sounded and on what basis it could be recommended.

By technical writing I mean to respect your audience.  Don't hold us hostage to find out I wasted my time reading an irrelevant review.  Start with the highlights and coast down from there.  If I've read enough let me stop.  If I want to read more, feed me more.  In the "real" world you don't make your client, boss, or meeting attendees sit through fluff, you get to the point up front.  Nothing worst than wasting time on a pointless presentation or the audience drawing the opposite conclusion you were going to surprise them with. 

Photon46

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #44 on: 19 Sep 2016, 08:42 pm »
So JLM, reading your summary of an ideal reviewer, I'd guess you're not a big fan of Srajan Ebaen at Six Moons? :lol:  No argument with your five points for a good review, all are helpful for readers.

Early B.

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #45 on: 19 Sep 2016, 10:10 pm »
I always jump straight to the end. Aside from knowing the reviewer's gear, everything prior to the last paragraph in virtually any audio review is not worth reading.

Johnny2Bad

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #46 on: 19 Sep 2016, 10:17 pm »
Audio Reviews are not a one-way street. The Reader has to put in as much, maybe more, effort than the reviewer. You need to read a number of reviews over a sufficient time period involving equipment you are familiar with so that you know the reviewer. Essentially you should, at some point, know whether what this particular reviewer likes jives with what you like, or (just as useful) never likes what you like, or something in between (say, Michael Fremer prefers a more euphonic sound than I do, or some similar conclusion with a particular reviewer).

Only then can reviews provide useful information to a potential buyer. And then, of course, you have to get out and listen to the products to make your final decision.

Note that the above has nothing to do with whether you might be able to afford a product or not. (I am baffled by letters to the editor complaining about high priced components being reviewed. Of course I want to see reviews of products I can afford as well, but I don't understand someone who is uninterested in the State Of The Art).

I get just as much useful information about products I can't afford as those I can, because I can always listen to the products I can't afford somewhere and learn from my assessment versus the reviewer's assessment.

In any case, I always listen to products that cost a multiple of my budget whenever I'm buying, because I want to know how the best gear sounds and I want to get as much of that quality in the product I eventually choose. In fact my general process is to start with a product I can't afford, and work my way down in price until I get to the performance I won't put up with. I am then left with a blueprint for how much I must spend to get what I want, and can make a decision accordingly (buy or wait and save some more).

I have, by the way, found some outstanding bargains that way, spending in some cases half of what I would have bought had I just looked at my wallet and bought based on the bills I found there.

I am too poor to buy junk. Only the wealthy, who can afford to buy something twice, can afford junk.

audioguy213

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #47 on: 20 Sep 2016, 01:31 am »
I dare anyone to purchase the modified TDSS DAC-10 and ST-10 amp I have in the classifieds and NOT love the sound.

JLM

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #48 on: 20 Sep 2016, 01:34 am »
Photon46,

Yeah I've pretty much given up on 6Moons.


Early B,

Yeah isn't that backwards?


Johnny2Bad,

Yeah, no substitute for doing the research, but being complete, concise, and providing context shouldn't be too much to ask for. 

G Georgopoulos

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #49 on: 20 Sep 2016, 01:48 am »

Technical specs are better than evaluation based on the reviewer's ears.

Guy 13
on planet Vietnam.

now you're talking... :lol:

do you taste the wine or look at the chemical ingredients  :thumb:

RDavidson

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #50 on: 20 Sep 2016, 02:00 am »
I always jump straight to the end. Aside from knowing the reviewer's gear, everything prior to the last paragraph in virtually any audio review is not worth reading.

I sometimes do the same. It depends on my interest in the component reviewed.
I want to say I've seen some European online publications where they begin the article with the reviewer's conclusion, which is an interesting approach.

rustydoglim

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #51 on: 20 Sep 2016, 09:01 pm »
I think talking about reviews is healthy both for consumers and magazines. Good reviewers who can offer a balanced view can provide a more comprehensive coverage of the product than a user's casual review.

I am encouraged by seeing some younger customers picking up this hobby. I think as we leverage new innovations to reduce the price of high-end audio, we will find more customers. The "mp3" generation is used to state of the art consumer products that cost only a few hundred $.

High-end audio pricing has to come down to meet them half way. This is a risky pricing strategy for high-end audio vendors.
Even if new innovations allow a vendor to reduce the price of a product, if the expected market doesn't grow (as a result of lower price), the business model is not sustainable.  A company has fixed operating cost (staff, office, etc) and if it only sells 1000 widgets a year at $X, next year it also sells 1000 new widgets but at $x/2, even if the profit margin is good, due to the power price and stagnant sales volume, it makes much less and can not pay for the expenses.

At NuPrime, we are taking a big risk of pricing new products at a fix multiple of cost. Traditional high-end business model is to price whatever the customer will pay and that practice is not wrong either, since the R&D and operating cost is high. But this is a very scary strategy for dealers. We are encouraged by the growth in unit volume. Dealers would now have to work harder to sell more units to make up for the lost profit. I don't think there is any other way: either you face the future or shrink and disappear.


OzarkTom

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #52 on: 20 Sep 2016, 09:10 pm »
I think talking about reviews is healthy both for consumers and magazines. Good reviewers who can offer a balanced view can provide a more comprehensive coverage of the product than a user's casual review.

I am encouraged by seeing some younger customers picking up this hobby. I think as we leverage new innovations to reduce the price of high-end audio, we will find more customers. The "mp3" generation is used to state of the art consumer products that cost only a few hundred $.

High-end audio pricing has to come down to meet them half way. This is a risky pricing strategy for high-end audio vendors.
Even if new innovations allow a vendor to reduce the price of a product, if the expected market doesn't grow (as a result of lower price), the business model is not sustainable.  A company has fixed operating cost (staff, office, etc) and if it only sells 1000 widgets a year at $X, next year it also sells 1000 new widgets but at $x/2, even if the profit margin is good, due to the power price and stagnant sales volume, it makes much less and can not pay for the expenses.

At NuPrime, we are taking a big risk of pricing new products at a fix multiple of cost. Traditional high-end business model is to price whatever the customer will pay and that practice is not wrong either, since the R&D and operating cost is high. But this is a very scary strategy for dealers. We are encouraged by the growth in unit volume. Dealers would now have to work harder to sell more units to make up for the lost profit. I don't think there is any other way: either you face the future or shrink and disappear.

+1

Thorsten Loesch  of AMR saw that also, so he designed the valued IFI gear.

mrvco

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #53 on: 14 Oct 2016, 07:37 pm »
Lots. Always buy with a return option.

I'm always reluctant to exercise the purchase and return option unless the gear seriously underperforms or an unexpected issue comes to light... especially if I'm interested in comparing multiple models (e.g. IDA-8 versus STA-9+DAC-9).  Are there any US dealers that maintain a demo pool of NuPrime products?  Worst case I can stop by Sonic Unity in Las Vegas the next time I'm there, but that probably won't be until early next year.

rustydoglim

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #54 on: 27 Oct 2016, 09:32 pm »
Quote
I'm always reluctant to exercise the purchase and return option unless the gear seriously underperforms or an unexpected issue comes to light... especially if I'm interested in comparing multiple models (e.g. IDA-8 versus STA-9+DAC-9).  Are there any US dealers that maintain a demo pool of NuPrime products?  Worst case I can stop by Sonic Unity in Las Vegas the next time I'm there, but that probably won't be until early next year.

I know you are being nice.  But if you are serious in buying, it is perfectly OK. This is a cost of doing business. Use the Amp Comparison chart, if you decide on IDA-8, buy it and try it at home. If you don't like IDA_8, chances are you won't like DAC-9 and STA-9.  I am sure the dealer will be happy to take IDA-8 back and sell you the STA-9 and DAC-9 if you want to "trade up".  But if you go through one after another and keep returning stuff, you are probably going to be hit with a restocking fee at some point.
With the price of these components so low, few dealers can afford a store stocked with products for demo.  Big dealer like Audio Advisor has a store but they do most of their business online.  I don't think nice local audio store will come back, this will not happen :(.  Most people are happy to buy a $179 Amazon Echo. We know that local hi-fi stores have closed all over the world in the past decade. I would say up to 70% of them have closed, probably more.  So if you still have one in your area, consider you lucky.

drumnman2

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #55 on: 14 Nov 2016, 03:18 pm »
Speaking of reviews, I see Absolute Sound has a Nuprime review coming in the next issue. Any info on what product(s) it will be ?

rustydoglim

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #56 on: 14 Nov 2016, 10:36 pm »
The review has been delayed.

Tyson

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Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #57 on: 15 Nov 2016, 01:14 am »
This is exactly why Jason and I stopped doing RMAF coverage.  Too many people were actually paying attention to what we said.  Back when we first started, we could review a room and say all kinds of crap about it and that didn't matter because we were nobodies and no one listened to us anyway.  So we could be brutally honest.  As the years wore on we started to get a bit of a following and people actually started to take what we said seriously. 

It put us in an awkward position - we could be directly honest and trash a room that sounded bad and possibly hurt that vendor's business/reputation.  Or we should soft pedal it and make it seem less bad than it was.  Or we could just skip writing about it entirely.  All 3 options suck.  So we quit.  That's why I'll do a review for gear that I own (obviously I like it if I bought it), but I'll never become a paid, professional reviewer.  That is a crappy job, IMO.

OzarkTom

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #58 on: 15 Nov 2016, 01:37 am »
This is exactly why Jason and I stopped doing RMAF coverage.  Too many people were actually paying attention to what we said.  Back when we first started, we could review a room and say all kinds of crap about it and that didn't matter because we were nobodies and no one listened to us anyway.  So we could be brutally honest.  As the years wore on we started to get a bit of a following and people actually started to take what we said seriously. 

It put us in an awkward position - we could be directly honest and trash a room that sounded bad and possibly hurt that vendor's business/reputation.  Or we should soft pedal it and make it seem less bad than it was.  Or we could just skip writing about it entirely.  All 3 options suck.  So we quit.  That's why I'll do a review for gear that I own (obviously I like it if I bought it), but I'll never become a paid, professional reviewer.  That is a crappy job, IMO.

I know for a fact, if the item sucks, you never see a review.

One such review was 8 different power conditioners. Reviewer found the  best results was hooked direct to the wall outlet, so no review was ever made.


rustydoglim

Re: The unspoken thing about reviews
« Reply #59 on: 16 Nov 2016, 06:04 am »
It also depends on the professionalism of a manufacturer.  And we just encountered a situation (first time in 10 years) with a problem for a STA-9 review. Usually if there is some negative comments in the review, we provide a footnote comment and the review gets published. But in this rare case that the review is contradictory to all the feedback that we have received (including many from customers), we decided to hold the review to have a chance to investigate.
We have just concluded that 2 x STA-9 mono doesn't sound good with the speaker used in the review. The same reviewer gave very high mark for another NuPrime amp before, using the same speaker. And we totally agree with the result.
Now this present an interesting issue - what to do ? A review that is accurate but we don't think it is a general reflection of this product. 
Anyway, I am incline to release the review. Sometimes the magazine will ask another reviewer for alternate comment, we don't know.