AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 1 Apr 2010, 03:36 pm

Title: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 1 Apr 2010, 03:36 pm
We'd like to know what preamps people are using with DAC4800A and Cherry amps.  Please post if you have one of our amps or if you've heard a good combo demo.

Comments on all premps that you tried are welcome.

Remember to include output type (tube/valve, SS, balanced, unbalanced, etc.).  Thanks.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: mfsoa on 1 Apr 2010, 03:43 pm
VAC Standard MKII (tube), both RCA and XLR. Prefer the XLR. Want to explore more XLR cable options.

Forte Model 40 (SS), RCA, was used when I was having tube issues w/ the above. Was suprised at how I didn't "need" the tubes back in the chain - The SS pre still sounded great w/ the Cherry I had at the time.

-Mike
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 1 Apr 2010, 06:06 pm
Audio Research SP9 here, with unbalanced outputs.  I use a Theta Digital D/A to drive the pre, and the sound is great.

A friend of mine has a Michaelson & Austin preamp, but I'm not sure which model.  We played the DAC4800A with it years ago --- great results.

Still, I prefer driving amps directly with a balanaced and level controlled D/A (such as Lavry).
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: vdejulio on 1 Apr 2010, 06:16 pm
Bel Canto Pre3 for me! Very, very nice sound indeed :eyebrows:
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Bill Baker on 1 Apr 2010, 06:25 pm
I had the DAC4800 for a while and my partner had the Cherry and 4800A side by side. We were using the Purity Statement balanced linestage and while the Cherry sounded very nice, the 4800 was a beautiful mate. I also used the Purity One with the 4800 using XLR-RCA adapters and the amp was still dead quiet. I really miss having this amp on hand.

I will admit that I was never big on not having tube power but this combination has changed me.

 I enjoyed the neutral and dynamic presentation of the 4800 so much that I will be bringing another in for use in evaluation, testing and demo'ing the Purity linestages in our showroom.

Very nice work AD333
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: jman66 on 2 Apr 2010, 12:44 pm
TADAC 2009 via XLRs into the DAC4800A.  So far, really good!
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: satfrat on 2 Apr 2010, 03:59 pm
TADAC 2009 via XLRs into the DAC4800A.  So far, really good!

Ohhh I bet it does match up good, really really good. I heard the 2010 version w/o a volume control last week and was very impressed with the clarity of this tube DAC. Now this is a nonpreamp setup I'd love to hear, especially with a set of SP Tech Mini's.  :drool:   Bet it's to die for,,,,  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: TONEPUB on 2 Apr 2010, 04:17 pm
So far, here's what I've used with the Cherry Plus with good results:

Mystere (tube, single ended)
ARC SP-17 (tube, single ended)
McIntosh C500 (tube, XLR)
Burmester 011 (SS, XLR)
dCS Paganini (SS, XLR)

So far, so good, this is a very nice amp at the price point.  We will have a full review up on our site in mid-May.  (traveling a lot this month, so a little behind on things)

Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: watercourse on 3 Apr 2010, 12:19 am
Currently use these preamps with the Cherry Jr.:

Dodd Battery (tubed RCA)
Bel Canto DAC3 (SS RCA, XLR)

Both work very well, but I only use the DAC3 direct via XLRs when I'm recharging the Dodd, although it is MUCH quieter and a better impedance match than the Dodd. Am very happy with the synergy of both these pre's with the Cherry Jr.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Big Red Machine on 3 Apr 2010, 12:36 pm
Anybody ever try a tube buffer between a SS pre and one of the DAC amps?
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 3 Apr 2010, 07:23 pm
Anybody ever try a tube buffer between a SS pre and one of the DAC amps?
Interesting idea...
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Bill Baker on 3 Apr 2010, 07:56 pm
Quote
Anybody ever try a tube buffer between a SS pre and one of the DAC amps?

Most tube buffers I have heard take away from the presentation. Unless it is a very high quality design, I would be skeptical. These amps deserve not to have anything distract from them. After hearing what these amps are capable of, I wouldn't want to put anything in the chain that wasn't up to the task.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 5 Apr 2010, 12:03 pm
Some balanced tube preamps mentioned:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78819.msg748414#msg748414

A balanced tube preamp list from Audiogon here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78819.msg748487#msg748487

Let's not forget that SS preamps work well with our amps too!
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Big Red Machine on 12 Apr 2010, 07:31 pm
Interesting idea...

So let me try this again.  Say we had a computer, into the SS Db Labs dac, then a Dodd tube buffer, and then a 4800A or Cherry Jr., and then 87 db 4 ohm speakers.

Would the input and output impedances, gains, flavors, etc. allow the Dodd to actually control the volume???
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: S Clark on 12 Apr 2010, 07:48 pm
Currently use these preamps with the Cherry Jr.:

Dodd Battery (tubed RCA)
Bel Canto DAC3 (SS RCA, XLR)

Both work very well, but I only use the DAC3 direct via XLRs when I'm recharging the Dodd, although it is MUCH quieter and a better impedance match than the Dodd. Am very happy with the synergy of both these pre's with the Cherry Jr.

I can't imagine that anything is quieter than the Dodd?? :scratch:  Are you using tubes from the 6dj8 family?  I know that Gary had told me that some of the Russian varieties introduce noise that is noticeable in very high effeciency speakers.  Since you are using RCA's, I'd sure contact Gary as something is probably not right.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: watercourse on 12 Apr 2010, 08:36 pm
Well, when I say not as quiet, I'm talking about hearing a hiss less than a foot or so away from the speaker with normal volumes - you can't hear it in the music tho. This may be due to tube rush or minor impedance mismatch with the Cherry, but it also could be that I'm expecting it to be dead quiet. When I turn it up REALLY loud, I can hear a slight hiss from the listening position.
I'm thinking of trying out an inline attenuator to improve S/N from the Dodd. Or if anyone else thinks this is a problem to take up with Gary, I will definitely follow up with him.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: gerald porzio on 12 Apr 2010, 09:54 pm
Whenever you use tubes in a preamp or buffer, unless an extremely low sensitivity spkr. is used, a certain amount of tube rush (noise) will be heard w/o music playing when close to the spkr. Consider this part of the tube magic.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: watercourse on 12 Apr 2010, 09:57 pm
Definitely not enough of an issue to relegate the Dodd to #2 position! Thanks all!
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: sentry on 13 Apr 2010, 06:55 pm
Audio Research SP9 here, with unbalanced outputs.  I use a Theta Digital D/A to drive the pre, and the sound is great.

A friend of mine has a Michaelson & Austin preamp, but I'm not sure which model.  We played the DAC4800A with it years ago --- great results.

Still, I prefer driving amps directly with a balanaced and level controlled D/A (such as Lavry).
Title: Notes about preamps on our BLOG
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 16 Apr 2010, 12:53 am
Comments about balanced versus unbalanced, plus some technical detail...
http://digitalamp.blogspot.com/2010/04/when-it-comes-to-preamps-i-prefer.html
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Big Red Machine on 16 Apr 2010, 01:12 am
So let me try this again.  Say we had a computer, into the SS Db Labs dac, then a Dodd tube buffer, and then a 4800A or Cherry Jr., and then 87 db 4 ohm speakers.

Would the input and output impedances, gains, flavors, etc. allow the Dodd to actually control the volume???

Tommy, do you think this combo would work?
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: watercourse on 16 Apr 2010, 02:49 pm
I haven't had direct experience with the Dodd buffer - which has 0 gain - but with the battery pre at 16db gain (per specs at Underwood Hifi), I usually have the Dodd's volume set between 9 o'clock for normal listening, and never above 12 o'clock from my Bel Canto DAC3 (used as a source), which has max output of 2.25Vrms via RCA. Well, maybe once in a while above 12 o'clock, but never when the wife is home  :icon_lol:
With my lower output phono stage, I still never push above ~ 12 o'clock.
My intuition is that I rarely actually need the gain with the Cherry Jr.'s 27.4 db gain driving my speakers that are 91db efficient.
The Dodd buffer has a lower impedance (130) than the pre (<200), so the buffer should theoretically be a better match for the 4800A/Cherry Jr.
Why don't you give Gary Dodd a holler? Or maybe Tommy can weigh in now that he knows a bit more from my system characteristics?
Speaking of output impedance and other matters, my experience with unbalanced vs. balanced pre's mirrors Tommy's - with similar output impedances, the balanced pre is quieter with the Cherry. But in my case, the tube sound is preferred.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Bill Baker on 16 Apr 2010, 07:59 pm
Quote
the balanced pre is quieter with the Cherry

Most of this will be due to the design of the preamp rather than balanced vs unbalanced. My Purity One that was driving the DAC amps was unbalanced with an output impedance of 800 ohms and mated very well with the amps. (The balanced pieces' outputs are 180 ohm).

 As far as volume setting goes, it depends on what setting the preamp was on. With multiple attenuation settings, I can have gain of 22dB, 16dB or 12dB on the Purity. At full gain, 22dB, I did not have as much travel on the volume knob but still dead quiet. I prefered the 16dB setting on the Purity as well as the 13dB setting on the Basis preamp that I also used with the amp. The Basis can be configured for 23dB, 17dB or 13dB with an output impedance of 1.7K ohms.

Average output voltage from sources used was 1.7V-2V.

Unfortunately I do not have any one else's preamps around any longer for comparison with the DAC amp.

 For what it's worth, the speakers I was using with the amp are 93dB with multiple plannar tweeters working from 600Hz on up so if any noise was there, it would have been easily noticed. It proved that these amps can be as quiet as midnight.

 We are working on bringing this amp back in :green:
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 25 Apr 2010, 02:52 pm
Most of this will be due to the design of the preamp rather than balanced vs unbalanced. My Purity One that was driving the DAC amps was unbalanced with an output impedance of 800 ohms and mated very well with the amps. (The balanced pieces' outputs are 180 ohm).

 As far as volume setting goes, it depends on what setting the preamp was on. With multiple attenuation settings, I can have gain of 22dB, 16dB or 12dB on the Purity. At full gain, 22dB, I did not have as much travel on the volume knob but still dead quiet. I prefered the 16dB setting on the Purity as well as the 13dB setting on the Basis preamp that I also used with the amp. The Basis can be configured for 23dB, 17dB or 13dB with an output impedance of 1.7K ohms.

Average output voltage from sources used was 1.7V-2V.

Unfortunately I do not have any one else's preamps around any longer for comparison with the DAC amp.

 For what it's worth, the speakers I was using with the amp are 93dB with multiple plannar tweeters working from 600Hz on up so if any noise was there, it would have been easily noticed. It proved that these amps can be as quiet as midnight.

 We are working on bringing this amp back in :green:

Bill,
When you say "Average output voltage from sources used was 1.7V-2V.", do you mean full scale from the source driving the preamp?  Thanks.
-Tommy
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 28 Apr 2010, 04:06 am
Tommy, do you think this combo would work?

Yes, but if I've been looking at the right information, the only volume control is the PC scaling the data before it enters the D/A.  I'd be worried about clicks/pops associated with PC audio since you can't lower the volume to be safe when switching sources, etc.  There's also the accidental volume WAY HIGH problem and the time it takes to lower it on the PC before you hurt your ears (or speakers).  The Cherry puts out a LOT of power and it's better to have a preamp or D/A with a volume control.  Maybe someone can comment on the volume "safety" issue with the dB Audio Labs D/A...
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Big Red Machine on 28 Apr 2010, 12:24 pm
Yes, but if I've been looking at the right information, the only volume control is the PC scaling the data before it enters the D/A.  I'd be worried about clicks/pops associated with PC audio since you can't lower the volume to be safe when switching sources, etc.  There's also the accidental volume WAY HIGH problem and the time it takes to lower it on the PC before you hurt your ears (or speakers).  The Cherry puts out a LOT of power and it's better to have a preamp or D/A with a volume control.  Maybe someone can comment on the volume "safety" issue with the dB Audio Labs D/A...

The Dodd buffer, with no gain, would be the volume control.  It's the no gain parameter that has me concerned.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Barry_NJ on 28 Apr 2010, 07:32 pm
The Dodd buffer, with no gain, would be the volume control.  It's the no gain parameter that has me concerned.
Hmmm... I very, very, rarely listen at 0 dB, never mind above that. I usually listen at around -15dB.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Big Red Machine on 28 Apr 2010, 07:44 pm
Throttling it back from 0 db is fine with me.  But will it NEED to be throttled back is what I am trying to ascertain.  I'd hate to wind up with the opposite effect (need gain, but can't get it w/o a gain stage in the pre).
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: ebag4 on 28 Apr 2010, 08:19 pm
Hey BRM,
If you are running Foobar or another program with volume control built in you might simply connect your DAC to the amp and see if more gain is needed, if not the Dodd Buffer would work for you.  I am listening to my DIY Dodd Buffer right now and it is sounding mighty fine! :thumb: :thumb:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 28 Apr 2010, 09:42 pm
Throttling it back from 0 db is fine with me.  But will it NEED to be throttled back is what I am trying to ascertain.  I'd hate to wind up with the opposite effect (need gain, but can't get it w/o a gain stage in the pre).

The Dodd web site info here doesn't specify a volume control in the text:
http://doddaudio.com/BatteryPoweredTubeBufferPreamp.aspx

However, the picture shows a volume control.  Oops, didn't see that at first.  There's no picture of the back, so I assume the output is single ended only (no XLRs).

The Tranquility D/A puts out more than 2.0V full scale, shown here:
http://www.dbaudiolabs.com/
(look at the Tranquility Specs page)

At 2.1V, the Cherry Amp delivers 300W into 8 ohms.  This may be fine as long as the source is not on the low side.  It will take some use to determine if the end-to-end gain is enough, and it will depend on the music and tastes of the listener.

So it's worth a try, but you might be better off going directly to the amp or through something that has a balanced output (XLRs).  Going directly to the amp from the D/A will depend on the behavior of the D/A and PC software.

Take a look at the preamps mentioned here to see what other Cherry Amp users are saying, and please post there too:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79614.msg758665#msg758665
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Big Red Machine on 28 Apr 2010, 10:04 pm
Yep, been looking at the list and my pocketbook and Audiogon for something tubed and balanced as a primary choice. 
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: Bill Baker on 29 Apr 2010, 03:07 am
Quote
Bill,
When you say "Average output voltage from sources used was 1.7V-2V.", do you mean full scale from the source driving the preamp?

 The voltage is the output from the source (CD player, DAC, etc) with some being quite a bit ower. There were fed into the preamp which I was running at 16dB output gain.

 I did run it for a short period directly from my DAC, Audio Note Custom DAC 2.1 Deluxe, but I did not get the same sense of spaciousness, without the preamp.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: ooheadsoo on 29 Apr 2010, 03:39 am
I'm using a solid state:

Nuforce P8 with balanced outputs

Clean, clear, crisp.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 29 Apr 2010, 10:44 pm
This link will get you to the list quicker:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78819.msg748487#msg748487

At some point, I'd like to compile all the customer responses on this topic.

Thanks again for the great posts...
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 29 Apr 2010, 11:05 pm
BRM looking for a preamp to go with Cherry:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80439.new;topicseen#new
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 13 Jun 2010, 06:41 am
Is anyone here familiar with the "Matrix Mini-I"?
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/441960/matrix-mini-i-balanced-dac-hp-amp
Title: Matrix Mini - I Balanced DAC
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 13 Jun 2010, 03:05 pm
Is anyone here familiar with the "Matrix Mini-I"?
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/441960/matrix-mini-i-balanced-dac-hp-amp
Here's more info:
http://www.pacificvalve.us/MatrixBalanced.html

It's $373 from Pacific Valve, but it says "out of stock" on their site.  It has balanced outputs and an output level control --- to skip the preamp.

Please let me know if you've heard of this D/A product.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: targa on 14 Jun 2010, 01:49 pm
i use a balanced version of Placette Audio Passive Preamp: RVC.  this works great with the Jerry Jr.  i also use a balanced version of the passive preamp made by Luminous Audio Axiom in my second system (HP laptop > USB converter > Stello DA220 > Luminous Audio Axiom > Dynaudio BM5a active speakers). 

at one time, I put the Axiom in my main system (HP laptop > USB converter > EMM Labs DAC6e > D.A.C. Jerry Jr > SP Tech Timepiece 3.0) replacing the Placette.  I wanted to test how good the Axiom is…  well, the Axiom falls far behind the Placette.  Axiom is more grainy, noisy and lacks details of the Placette.  Big difference.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: mojave on 14 Jun 2010, 02:06 pm
i use a balanced version of Placette Audio Passive Preamp: RVC.  this works great with the Jerry Jr.  i also use a balanced version of the passive preamp made by Luminous Audio Axiom in my second system (HP laptop > USB converter > Stello DA220 > Luminous Audio Axiom > Dynaudio BM5a active speakers). 

at one time, I put the Axiom in my main system (HP laptop > USB converter > EMM Labs DAC6e > D.A.C. Jerry Jr > SP Tech Timepiece 3.0) replacing the Placette.  I wanted to test how good the Axiom is…  well, the Axiom falls far behind the Placette.  Axiom is more grainy, noisy and lacks details of the Placette.  Big difference.

I thought you had the Cherry Jr, not a Jerry Jr.  :wink:
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: targa on 17 Jun 2010, 03:21 am
true and thank you for the correction...  my mind was not in the right place.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: highfilter on 17 Jun 2010, 03:50 am
I'm using a Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE as a pre-amp with the Cherry Jr. and I really like it. The Wyred presents a very clean feed for the Cherry Jr and I haven't been enjoying music this much in a long time.

Especially since I switched over to XLR versus the RCA, huge huge difference and I am very pleased with the results.
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: mfsoa on 17 Jun 2010, 12:40 pm
 :duh:

Thanks for reminding me- I just put my system back together after a few months and apparently I left my balanced cables somewhere, so I've been using the RCA > XLR adapters. The sound is so good I forgot to go get my balanced cables back!

I also found a nice improvement when going from the adapters to balanced.

Looking foreward to experiencing that again!

(Cherry JR)

-Mike
Title: Re: P R E A M P S for DAC4800A and Cherry
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 4 Feb 2012, 06:41 pm
New thread with the same topic (to get current info):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103123.0