[ACHiPo]

About a year and a half we moved to a (new to us) house with a library/office (man cave!).  While the rest of the house needed serious updating, we kinda like the retro-clubby feel of the paneling, although we did remodel the wet bar with metallic money wall paper (I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time). 


The desk came with the house, and was originally in the bay window area facing away from the window.


There was a closet with shelves and a pull-out keyboard tray that we just use for storage.  This will become my electronics closet.




How's this wet bar for 70s high style?  My daughters loved the "money" wallpaper, so we framed it and gave it to them for Christmas this year.



Here's the new combination coffee bar and record cleaning area. 

While I love the room, and the bookcases make for a diffuse and decent acoustical environment, the window, fireplace, bar, doors, and closet make for a difficult listening set up.  I finally decided I wanted the listening position to face out the bay window.  This has decent symmetry, and I can give the speakers room to "breathe".

Here's a sketch of the room.  It's ~15.5' by ~17.5' (the sketch dimension is wrong) by 9'H with a lot of nooks and crannies.



And here's the current set up (although I moved the coffee table to a different room):  Electronics in the center on a re-purposed console table.  Speakers (driver plane) are 6' out from the bay window, 50" out from the wall behind the bookcases, 71" from the left wall, and 60" from the French doors.  Listening position is 60" from the back wall and 72" from the driver plane.

[mresseguie]

Nice job on the change. I'll bet the music sounds great.

I love your espresso bar as well. Is the machine plumbed for automatic water refill? Double boiler? I've got a Rancilio 'Miss' Silvia II (single boiler) that must have water manually refilled. So much better than what passes for 'good' elsewhere.   

[ACHiPo]

Ok, so where does GIK acoustics come in?

The music was sounding decent.  Nice musicality, good extension, decent imaging and soundstage, but I suspected it could and should be a lot better.

Well, once I got things set up so that they didn't suck, I thought I'd take some measurements.  I downloaded Studio Six Digital Audio Tools, first the Audio Tools app, which included RTA and FFT capability.  It told me that I had some bass modes (duh), but it was pretty tough to make sense of what was going on.  I then downloaded the Impulse Response app that provides a calibration sweep and temporal data.  It confirmed I had bass modes, but the curves looked different from the FFT curves.  The most useful thing was that it was clear I have ringing at 67, 122, and 132 Hz.  Unfortunately I can't figure out how to output the waterfall graph, but the FFT of the impulse response is below. 



 
Once I got over the fact that the measurements look MUCH worse than the room sounds, I got to work trying to figure out what to do.  At this point I contacted Bryan at GIK.  The first thing he suggested was moving the couch away from the back wall more.  He then suggested I start with a couple Monster Traps behind the listening position.  Check.  Except for the doors on the coffee bar and closet (figured that out--pictures below).  I was trying to figure out how where to put treatment as I didn't want to change the look and feel of the room.  I'd hoped that the books and records would provide diffusion/absorption, but obviously not enough. I suspect part of the reason the room sounded decent was that except for a little ringing, the decay was uniform and pretty quick (~0.3 sec), but I'd appreciate other thoughts on that.

I had an idea!  I need bass traps in the corners, right?  Well if I could get traps made to fit in the top bookshelves, and have them not be ugly, life would be good.  Bryan confirmed they could make custom soffit traps.  Three weeks later (this was right before Christmas) 4 big boxes arrived (should have been 5--following up on what happened to the other trap).  Hard to see, as they blend in nicely to the walnut bookshelves with coffee fabric, but there is one on the top shelf flanking the desk.



As for the Monster traps, I've got one temporarily mounted on the inside of the closet door ("borrowed" a wreath hanger from SWMBO), which when opened is right behind the listening position.  The picture below shows the door with trap in the listening position.  I'm going to hang this permanently on this door, and it will still close when I have my components in the closet (I completed demo of the shelves yesterday in anticipation of drywall work and paint in a couple weeks).  The other Monster I have at a 1st reflection in front of the French doors, but will be moving it to different locations to get an idea of where I want additional treatments.



Initial listening is positive, with more solid musical bass.  I definitely want something at the first reflection between the French door and fireplace, but the Monster trap is not right for that location.  I'm thinking a couple more custom soffit traps, or maybe just a tall skinny panel with some absorption and diffusion.  I experimented with the Monster in front of my electronics, and the center image definitely firmed up, which I hope means that imaging will improve when I get the electronics remoted into the closet.  I need to figure out what to do on the desk side.  Also I'm contemplating a DIY coffee table/bass trap, although the experiment with putting the monster trap there didn't seem to do much.  Looking forward to getting the last trap, as that's the biggest one in the corner and should help even more.

[ACHiPo]

Nice job on the change. I'll bet the music sounds great.

I love your espresso bar as well. Is the machine plumbed for automatic water refill? Double boiler? I've got a Rancilio 'Miss' Silvia II (single boiler) that must have water manually refilled. So much better than what passes for 'good' elsewhere.   

Thanks.  The espresso machine is a Quickmill Vetrano (single boiler, E61) direct plumbed to RO filtration (also good for cleaning records  ).  The grinder is a Baratza Vario and I've been very happy with it--it's hard to imagine a commercial unit being any better.  And yes I am very spoiled with my ristrettos in the morning (my wife accuses me of being a coffee snob  )--I rarely order an espresso out unless I know the barista knows what they're doing and is using fresh beans, but sometimes a guy just needs some caffeine.

[Hipper]

It might be worth looking at your Frequency Response in higher detail so that you get a better impression of the 0-500Hz region. You may find that the dips are very narrow. In my case these narrow dips don't seem to affect the sound.

You mention Jim Smith's 'Get Better Sound' on another Circle. I found that moving my gear from between the speakers to the side made a difference but I thought it was more to do with reflections (and perhaps psychology). If your closet is really a big source of bass then you may well be better keeping your gear between the speakers. What you could do is put some panels in front of them. Using Monster Panels will help with some bass trapping too.

I don't use a turntable but good isolation has benefits. You might consider products from Symposium:

http://www.symposiumusa.com/products.shtml

Platforms and Rollerblocks would be useful. Alternatively you could try this:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

Moving your listening chair, and speakers, can improve the sound no end. It will take some effort but you can use your measuring software to help here. You only need measure for one speaker initially as hopefully the results for both should be similar. Jim Smith gives advice on this starting at tip #74. It's well worth doing. More advice here:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

My experience is you can't have enough Soffit Traps.

[jimdgoulding]

Bet your set-up throws or allows for, my cup of tea, whatever stage and instrumental placement is in your recordings.  Trust that you're getting the hall or club sense, too.  Moving my chair nearer to the plane of my speakers and the stage becomes more enveloping.  Moving further away and it's the hall with lifelike dimensionality.

[ACHiPo]

Thanks Hipper and Jim,
When I first moved my sofa forward it felt like I had my nose in the tweeters.  Since I've gotten used to it, it does seem to image better, although I'd prefer sitting a bit further away from the speakers.  I'm going to follow Smith's suggestions (and Hippers) on methodically finding the right place for the speakers--my technique was by eye and then by ear.  I'm fortunate in that they came with casters and I've got plywood, so it should be pretty easy to experiment with different positions.

Hipper,
It's not that the closet generates a lot of bass, it's just that bass waves tend to constructively interfere at front and back walls, and the mid-point on the side walls tend to have nulls (as I understand it).  And your understanding is consistent with mine on getting rid of gear from between speakers to improve imaging.  My concern is that I may be trading one problem for another.

Evan

[Carl V]

Have  you tried any other arrangements of stereo speakers/couch & the desk.

Perhaps move your Desk/chair to the bay window nook area...nice view while working.
Move speakers in front of book cases. rotate couch.

[Tyson]

Thanks Hipper and Jim,
When I first moved my sofa forward it felt like I had my nose in the tweeters.  Since I've gotten used to it, it does seem to image better, although I'd prefer sitting a bit further away from the speakers.  I'm going to follow Smith's suggestions (and Hippers) on methodically finding the right place for the speakers--my technique was by eye and then by ear.  I'm fortunate in that they came with casters and I've got plywood, so it should be pretty easy to experiment with different positions.

Hipper,
It's not that the closet generates a lot of bass, it's just that bass waves tend to constructively interfere at front and back walls, and the mid-point on the side walls tend to have nulls (as I understand it).  And your understanding is consistent with mine on getting rid of gear from between speakers to improve imaging.  My concern is that I may be trading one problem for another.

Evan

Another option is to use a low and wide rack instead of a tall narrow one.

[Guy 13]

Thanks Hipper and Jim,
When I first moved my sofa forward it felt like I had my nose in the tweeters.  Since I've gotten used to it, it does seem to image better, although I'd prefer sitting a bit further away from the speakers.  I'm going to follow Smith's suggestions (and Hippers) on methodically finding the right place for the speakers--my technique was by eye and then by ear.  I'm fortunate in that they came with casters and I've got plywood, so it should be pretty easy to experiment with different positions.

Hipper,
It's not that the closet generates a lot of bass, it's just that bass waves tend to constructively interfere at front and back walls, and the mid-point on the side walls tend to have nulls (as I understand it).  And your understanding is consistent with mine on getting rid of gear from between speakers to improve imaging.  My concern is that I may be trading one problem for another.

Evan

Hi Evan,
I like the retro style of your man's cave/listening room.
Everything blends well together.
I'm anxious to see the final result/positioning.

Guy 13

[ACHiPo]

Have  you tried any other arrangements of stereo speakers/couch & the desk.

Perhaps move your Desk/chair to the bay window nook area...nice view while working.
Move speakers in front of book cases. rotate couch.

Carl,
The other option is with the listening position in the bay window and the speakers where the couch is.  I decided against this because of traffic flow--the speakers are deep and get in the path between my desk and espresso machine--not good!  Besides the right speaker would be in the doorway, which is kinda awkward.

AC

[ACHiPo]

Another option is to use a low and wide rack instead of a tall narrow one.

That was what I was contemplating.  I think it will be better with the electronics in the closet, it's just after reading Smith I'm questioning it.

[ACHiPo]

Hi Evan,
I like the retro style of your man's cave/listening room.
Everything blends well together.
I'm anxious to see the final result/positioning.

Guy 13

Guy,
Thanks!  It's definitely a process (as you well know).

I feel like I made a bit of a breakthrough by ear tonight.  I picked up a laser measuring tool and moved my speakers back about 4" and equidistant (they were about 2" off by eye/ear).  I toed in the speakers about 5 degrees, and shazam, the speakers almost disappear.   Still have more to do, but I'm gaining on it.

Thanks everyone for your input!

AC

[Alex Reynolds]

It might be worth looking at your Frequency Response in higher detail so that you get a better impression of the 0-500Hz region.

Agreed! Measurement can really help hone in the speaker and listening position to an excellent spot, as well.
You can check out our tutorial on using Room EQ Wizard (free) to measure your room if you're every inclined: http://gikacoustics.com/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/

My experience is you can't have enough Soffit Traps.

 

[mcbuddah]

Well, you seem motivated enough to do some serious listening and adjusting to set things up right. I am similar in my approach to audio,
but only since I retired and now have more time than money to spend. I have the same problem - too much bass in the back - as you, but
have come to the realization that my beloved Snell B-Type speakers have to go in order to improve my system further. The 'B's are 5-sided
floor-standers that have a 10" rear-mounted sub in each box centered about 3.5' above ground. They are capable of bass in the very low 20s
and create some pretty long waves.  When the speakers are placed with little or no toe-in (recommended) the subs are aimed at a 45 deg. angle right at the
electronics behind them.

My solution is to buy different speakers and start over in the room and kick the TV set and its gear to whatever space may remain and prioritize the 2 channel
system on the best wall in the house, a 26' wall with only allowing placement far from side-walls and allowing speakers to be positioned up to 6 feet from any walls.
Unfortunately, the 'B's still are pumping bass directly at anything behind them.

This weekend I will be getting a used pair of Genesis 6.1 speakers that actually produce more bass than the 'B's, but it is generated horizontally from a pair of 12"
woofers that are near the floor. Unfortunately, I don't have the thousands of dollars needed to recable my system that would be required to locate the electronics
away from the back wall. Eventually, I may have to go that route, but I am first going to spend a good deal of time on proper set-up and adjustment to see if I get things
sounding good while using the equipment and cabling I have, but I think firing the woofers parallel to the gear racks on the back wall rather than directly at them
will not be so bad. Towards that end, I have been scouring the internet to find good reference material to help get started when the
new speakers arrive. The most promising information comes from a Genesis Technologies White Paper that analyzes every possible parameter of speaker positioning geometry
using downloadable hi-rez files that pinpoint exact sounds to listen for when making adjustments. Each of 10 sections uses a single piece of music containing the actual content
needed point out whether speakers may need some tweaking, and what you should hear when every thing is OK. I plan to work this paper to death before spending
another $10K on longer cables.

The URL for this page is: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf

[Hipper]

Firstly have you tried swapping your Snells left for right, so the woofer is outward facing?

Jim Smith says, and he is surely right, that the effect of moving gear outweighs any change from expensive to modest speaker cables. In other words you could buy inexpensive longer speaker cables and put the gear on one side. To shorten the length a bit you might consider flat cable that goes under any carpet.

I'll read that Genesis link. It's good that they have done that work.

[ACHiPo]

Agreed! Measurement can really help hone in the speaker and listening position to an excellent spot, as well.
You can check out our tutorial on using Room EQ Wizard (free) to measure your room if you're every inclined: http://gikacoustics.com/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/

 

Alex,
Thanks.  I've been using Studio Six, which works great, but I need to figure out a better way to play the impulse response, as my HDMI cable is thick and heavy, and causes the iPad connection to be intermittent, which I think is one of the reasons I'm getting flaky measurements.  I've also been looking at the entire spectrum to date, but Studio Six has the capability to just focus on bass (<300 Hz ?) so I'll play around with that this weekend.

I've been using the 1/12 octave analysis, so I should be getting pretty good resolution, but obviously if I take the same number of samples over a smaller frequency range it will be higher resolution.

Evan

[ACHiPo]

Well, you seem motivated enough to do some serious listening and adjusting to set things up right. I am similar in my approach to audio,
but only since I retired and now have more time than money to spend. I have the same problem - too much bass in the back - as you, but
have come to the realization that my beloved Snell B-Type speakers have to go in order to improve my system further. The 'B's are 5-sided
floor-standers that have a 10" rear-mounted sub in each box centered about 3.5' above ground. They are capable of bass in the very low 20s
and create some pretty long waves.  When the speakers are placed with little or no toe-in (recommended) the subs are aimed at a 45 deg. angle right at the
electronics behind them.

My solution is to buy different speakers and start over in the room and kick the TV set and its gear to whatever space may remain and prioritize the 2 channel
system on the best wall in the house, a 26' wall with only allowing placement far from side-walls and allowing speakers to be positioned up to 6 feet from any walls.
Unfortunately, the 'B's still are pumping bass directly at anything behind them.

This weekend I will be getting a used pair of Genesis 6.1 speakers that actually produce more bass than the 'B's, but it is generated horizontally from a pair of 12"
woofers that are near the floor. Unfortunately, I don't have the thousands of dollars needed to recable my system that would be required to locate the electronics
away from the back wall. Eventually, I may have to go that route, but I am first going to spend a good deal of time on proper set-up and adjustment to see if I get things
sounding good while using the equipment and cabling I have, but I think firing the woofers parallel to the gear racks on the back wall rather than directly at them
will not be so bad. Towards that end, I have been scouring the internet to find good reference material to help get started when the
new speakers arrive. The most promising information comes from a Genesis Technologies White Paper that analyzes every possible parameter of speaker positioning geometry
using downloadable hi-rez files that pinpoint exact sounds to listen for when making adjustments. Each of 10 sections uses a single piece of music containing the actual content
needed point out whether speakers may need some tweaking, and what you should hear when every thing is OK. I plan to work this paper to death before spending
another $10K on longer cables.

The URL for this page is: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf

Mc,
Thanks for the link.  I'll definitely check it out.  I'm also going to experiment with some microphone cables I have to see what if any degradation in sound I get on my balanced gear, but that's a different thread
Evan

[ACHiPo]

Oh, and the 5th box arrived Tuesday so I have a full complement of soffit traps in 3 corners.

[ACHiPo]

The URL for this page is: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf

Mc,
I forgot to congratulate you on your new speakers!

I skimmed through the link and it looks straight forward, except I don't have the sample CDs. Also, Smith focuses first on bass, and the Genesis doesn't because of the tone controls, which I don't have on my Kefs.

Thanks and good luck with your new set up.  Keep us posted.
Evan