AudioCircle

Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Hagerman Technology => Topic started by: hagtech on 4 Mar 2009, 05:13 am

Title: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 4 Mar 2009, 05:13 am
Starting a new thread for this, so I can ask for input.  Decided this will be the next kit.  My goal is to have working model for sale at RMAF09.  Will have two variants, or perhaps one board can be built in two ways: single-phase or three-phase.  Thinking about what features it needs.  Voltage output will be variable, and of course frequency.  But what should the display read?  Instead of 60.0Hz, I'm thinking it should just be 33.3.  What increments do you think are necessary?  33.3 to 33.4 or 33.33 to 33.34?  I'm leaning towards that 0.01 rpm resolution.  Rotary knobs such that it has an analog feel, even though the circuit is quartz locked digital.

Can be built for 50/60 Hz, 120Vac or 240Vac.  I could add a strobe output (add external LED).

My friend Stu mentioned running 45 and 78 rpm too, so that would mean output frequencies of 81Hz and 140Hz.  I'm wondering if the motors can handle this, or will they get too loud?  I'll have to experiment on my Rega.  Would be a really cool feature if you could do this with a flick of the switch, no pully or belt changes.  I'll have to look into this, as the motor cap might be tuned to the one frequency.  With the three-phase it's no problem.

The single-phase version would be plug-n-play.  Just connect TT motor to it's outlet.  Maybe I make a new UFO clamp to go with it.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: SHIF on 4 Mar 2009, 05:26 am
An excellent product idea, I'll buy one for sure.

I like the RPM display format, .01 resolution.

-S

My Cornet is five years old and sounding great!
Has the CCS mod, 370BX, and lots of boutique bits including the popular Russian FT-3 bypass caps.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: galyons on 4 Mar 2009, 06:14 am
Jim,
This is great!  45 RPM would be convenient. 78 RPM, in my case, would not be of value. I suggest keeping the design simple, just to maximize TT speed consistency.  I am assuming the LED stobe would be on an umbilical cord?  Not sure if really necessary.

Thank you for soliciting input!

Cornet 2 is pretty much built. Mm DIY case is slowing my progress. Who da' thunk??!!

Cheers,
Geary
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: BobM on 4 Mar 2009, 01:08 pm
Jim, a couple of thoughts, after having built Mark Kelly's controller.

- 33 and definitely 45, but you should make them independently adjustable if possible
- you will need a startup period of about 7-10 seconds where the voltage is higher (@115-120V), then it can taper down to a cruising speed around 70-80V
- the display could prove interesting, since different spindles may need adjustment one way or another, so one tables 33.3RPM might spin faster than another, so Hz might prove to be more universal
- One problem that Mark tried to solve was to adjust each phase leg of the AC to smooth them out. As you know, the motors "approximate" the phase angle using a cap and resistor network. This is not ideal and can still cause vibrations in the motor if the legs are not exactly opposite phase from each other, and they rarely are with this approximation. Unfortunately this is not a plug and play option, requiring the builder to remove this cap and resistor network and hardwire the motor to the speed controller, where the phase could be independently adjustable. Not sure if it would be possible to make this plug and play or if it is something you just have to live with.
- It would be great if you could build the controller so that the adjustments are made in the digital domaine, where they would be more stable and precise and less prone to the AC variation coming from the wall, then convert to the AC "analogue" signal to drive the motor
- the incoming power supply should be regulated to assist with this incoming variation in power from our walls
- you'll probably need to provide a good quality cardboard speed disk with the kit with both 33 and 45 rings marked, or a UFO accompanyment
- 120V and 240V to accommodate all shores

Good project. Make sure you test it on a variety of tables/motors.

Bob



Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Dan_ed on 4 Mar 2009, 02:07 pm
Jim,

I like where this is going, especially for the 3-phase motors! I'm all set with DC. But I do have one question and I hope some of you guys might know the answer. Where can I source a suitable 3-phase motor?   

The start up voltage that Bob mentioned isn't that big a deal to me since I always start my platter by hand for many reasons. But I realize I'm probably in the minority on this.

I like the speed resolution idea. I have a strobe disc marked in similar fashion.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: reuben on 4 Mar 2009, 02:09 pm
I'm presently more interested in a DC motor stabilizer, but I don't know if there is a viable market.

Regards,
Tom
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: analog97 on 4 Mar 2009, 02:36 pm
Quote
Maybe I make a new UFO clamp to go with it.

Just a practical point.  There a lot of TT's that require use of a reflex record clamp, e.g. VPI.  Since I switched from a Rega to a VPI, I am no longer able to use the UFO.  Hence, a UFO add-on should be optional I'd say.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: MusicMtnMonkey on 4 Mar 2009, 03:37 pm
My opinion is don't worry about 78 RPM speed control.  Many people would use an older TT that was originally designed for adjustable speed to play their 78's.  Since those old 78's were meant to be played with a heavier arm and heavier cartridge, it's not really optimal to use a Rega or VPI anyway.

As a VPI owner, it would be really nice if the speed control would switch between 33 and 45 RPM (so I don't have to mess with moving the silly belt anymore).  I think the VPI and possibly the Project speed controllers do this already, so maybe we can assume the motor is ok with it...

I didn't see the UFO on the Hagtech website, do you still sell them?
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: ecramer on 4 Mar 2009, 04:04 pm
now if the ufo came with a 1/4 20 screw down us VPI owners would be covered as an option of course. This is definitely a kit project that i would be interested in doing.

ED
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: ecir38 on 5 Mar 2009, 03:45 am
The start up voltage that Bob mentioned isn't that big a deal to me since I always start my platter by hand for many reasons. But I realize I'm probably in the minority on this.

A friend has a Nottingham spacedeck that starts and stops by hand. I don't have any first hand experience to offer but may find this little bit of info usefull.
http://www.aslgroup.com/nottingham/manual/faq.htm#WAVE_MECHANIC_POWER_SUPPLY

What about a line isolator like the Vpi? I have heard that the clean power it provides makes a big differance.
http://www.vpiindustries.com/products_sds.htm
 
We'll be following this one thanks Jim.

Brad
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 5 Mar 2009, 09:16 am
For a three phase motor controller, i think just plain knobs for the control without any display would be fine.   Jim, I plan to use a strobe to verify speed, so the display on the motor control might simply be too busy for a vintage analog guy like myself.  Can you make the display part optional?

For a single phase motor control can you use the same circuitry for a shaded pole motor as for an AC synchronous motor?  My Rek O Kuts uses shaded pole motors and these sound really good.  The voltage determines the speed.  It would be nice to have a wide voltage swing, so I can machine a larger pulley and run the motor closer to 75 to 100 volts to reduce resonance. 

As Bob mentioned, the VPI controller starts at wall voltage and then drops to a lower voltage in order to reduce motor resonance.  Can your kit provide the same start voltage with an automatic drop to the steady state voltage?   Can you build that dropped down voltage level to be controllable like VPI has done on their SDS control? 

If you can create the three phase motor kit I will be forever indebted!  This is a very important project that would make a very favorable improvement in my system! 

The single phase motor kit is nearly equally important to my vintage turntable projects as long as it will work with a shaded pole motor configuration. 

Cheers!

Dan Ed....One of the best three phase motors ever built was the Papst Hysteresis motor.  You find this on Empires, Rek O Kuts and Oracle tables.  You also find a larger version of the motor in sellect R2R decks.

I have three of these now.  I have two from Rek O Kut N-33H belt drives and one in a Rondine B12GH.  I am using the Papst motor in my thread drive table.  Here is a picture of the motor.  (http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a150/tubesforever/IMAGE002.jpg)

The faking cap is there to supply the third leg of the three phase supply.  The three phase motor supply would provide a more stable and accurate phasing for the motor.  You can see the inner drum of the hysteresis motor.  This spinning portion produces a flywheel effect that provides for better inertial performance than a traditional motor.

I put this motor into a customized motor pod and machined a pulley for accurate thread drive speeds with my 120 v power. 

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a150/tubesforever/ATmodifications047.jpg)

This is my favorite record player at this time. 
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: alpa6 on 5 Mar 2009, 06:14 pm
i'M NOT SURE about some of what you talking about jim but to me if you apeal to the widest range of people ypu will sell more.So i say 78,45,33.3 rpm.
As far as a display my scout depending on how tight i make the belt will run a different speed.
I would like the motor controler to run 33.3 no matter what.
If this is possible.
I dont care about fliping belts it's not big thing to move it.
Is this going to be a tube unit.
I figure it must be ss.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Dan_ed on 5 Mar 2009, 08:11 pm
Thanks, tubes. I'm looking for a source of new 3 phase motors.

As for the starting by hand, to me this is more of a means to save belt life rather than any deficiency with motor or controller. I use modified mylar for belts and the textured side lasts longer if I avoid the capstan spinning away while trying to get the 32 lbs platter up to speed.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: SoundBound on 5 Mar 2009, 08:19 pm
Sounds like a great project.  Once the kit comes out, I would really like it if you can suggest a supplier, or perhaps supply, some good motors (single and 3 phase) for use with the controller and if an LED is provided for strobe control, then the availability of an appropriate strobe disk or mat would be great.

Looking forward to see what come out of the 'witch's cauldron'.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: SCompRacer on 5 Mar 2009, 09:57 pm
Quote
A friend has a Nottingham Spacedeck that starts and stops by hand.
Tom Fletcher of Nottingham believes in using low torque motors.  I don't mind the starting and stopping of the platter by hand.  I started out with a Spacedeck and then to a Space 294.  The speed was near dead on with the Spacedeck, but near .3% fast with the 294, so I picked up a demo Wave Mechanic.  Controllers sure can be pricey, so it will be interesting to see what Jim comes up with. 

I’m with tubesforever; I don’t need a display.  On my current controller, I just have a knob to adjust frequency (the voltage is fixed).  I use a KAB Speed Strobe to monitor the platter speed.  I check it now and then, but haven’t had to readjust it.  I love the Speed Strobe as it is easier for me to look at the numbers instead of the hypnotic lines.

Perhaps a display would be nice once you find the best voltage/cycles setting for your motor and return to if they were changed.  (I've never had a VPI controller so I don't know if you lose settings if the controller is powered off). 
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: TheChairGuy on 5 Mar 2009, 10:02 pm
(I've never had a VPI controller so I don't know if you lose settings if the controller is powered off). 

You don't lose the settings I don't think if powered off...I had one here for a month from a friend (nice fella' eh?) and it worked out quite well.

Jim (Hagerman) - would there by a fully constructed option, too for this if you produce it?  Or would it not be plug in and play due to nature of the 3 phase regulation?  In which case, it would be beyond my meager capabilities  :(

John
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: SCompRacer on 5 Mar 2009, 10:15 pm
I had one here for a month from a friend (nice fella' eh?) and it worked out quite well.



That is nice!  Where would we be if it were not for our friends? :o :D 
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Tone Deaf on 6 Mar 2009, 09:32 pm
I'm eager with anticipation!

I have a Linn LP12 so interested in single phase I guess, running 240v @ 50hz.  33 & 45 rpm at flick of a switch would be fantastic.

Any plans to include some tubes Jim?  :drool:

Glyn
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 16 Mar 2009, 06:56 pm
Hi Jim,

It was good to catch up with you for a few turns at Breckenridge  yesterday. 

There's a small group of Galibier owners (amongst whom, Dan_ed is a key contributor) who has been experimenting with driving a turntable.  To date, we've played onlly with the Mark Kelly controller (both AC and DC). 

The group is diverse in their musical tastes and system architecutre (there are representatives of the box speaker, horn, and planar camp).  Of course the commonality is the Galibier connection. 

In any event, no clear preference has emerged, as far as conveying all types of music the "best".  A three phase controller is certainly on the short list - if we can source a motor in current production.  The Kelly controller to date has driven two different two phase motors.

One other theme that is just now beginning to emerge is to run the motors much faster than they have been specified for.  Heresy you say?  Well, it's already being done when you throw a higher frequency at the motors to spin the the platter at 45 rpm. 

This higher speed has the effect of shifting residual vibration to a place the Galibier architecture is filtering it out.  My guess is that even low mass, sprung designs would benefit from this as well - with their resonant frequency lying in the 4-5Hz range.

While I can of course manufacture any pulley size I care to, the question arises as to how the purchaser of a Hagtech product can do so as well. 

Well, taking the LP12 for example, the Primotec motor uses a Europen standard, 3mm motor shaft - something I've been machining for the Maxon DC motors we've been using.  The Hurst motor used in the VPI has a .125" shaft, and I've machined pulleys for these as well.  When you begin prototyping this, I can send you pulleys to fit most motors, and manufacturing them for you would likely present no problem.

The intent of this thread is of course to consider an appropriate, adaptable architecture - to not close up ones design options prematurely.

I contend that we should not limit our choices of speed to those dictated by motor manufacturers.  These motor manufacturers do not design their products for turntables.  You'd be amazed at the discussions I've had with the Maxon engineers.  More times than not, their recommendations have been 180 degrees opposed to what we've found to sound best. 

Similarly, running AC motors out of spec could have its sonic advantages.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: ecir38 on 16 Mar 2009, 07:42 pm
Thom, thanks for chiming in with your input. One of our local club members is having a meeting next week and has your Gavia turntable, Triplanar mk iv arm with a ZYX universe mc cartridge. Should be a treat.

Brad
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: BlkNotes on 16 Mar 2009, 08:25 pm
 
 Hello Jim;

     What is the benefit of 3 phase over 1 phase? Would one not need 3 phase service coming into the house in order to accomadate the 3 phase motor. I know a 3 phase motor runs cooler and more efficiently then a comparable 1 phase. So I am presuming less vibration etc...

I would prefer 0.01 readablity with a digital display. Will it cost much more versus  0.1 ?

Thanks
BN
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 16 Mar 2009, 08:57 pm
Thanks Brad.  What part of the country are you located in?

When Jim decompresses from his vacation, I'm sure he'll have a whole lot more to say about three-phase, but here's the condensed version for BN and others ...

The output (3-phase) is unrelated to the electrical service feeding it.  Ultimately, you're rectifying what's coming out of the wall and turning it into DC, or alternatively (my preference) you're starting with a battery supply and dispensing with the distortion in the AC waveform along with any residue ripple from the rectification process.

Jim can comment much more intelligently than I can, but the above is the gist of it.

The theoretical advantage of three-phase over two-phase is that the pulses pushing the motor are spaced 120 degrees apart (3 pushes per revoluton) instead of 180 degrees apart (2 pushes).  Think in terms of the inherent smoothness of an inline 6 engine vs. an inline 4 (or a V-12 vs. a V-8).  Larger motors tend to be three-phase, in part to control vibration.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: ecir38 on 16 Mar 2009, 09:08 pm
Hey Thom,

I'm in Algiers, La. and the club member I was talking about (Tom) lives in Kenner. Both are just a few miles from the CBD of New Orleans.

Brad 
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 17 Mar 2009, 04:50 am
Quote
What is the benefit of 3 phase over 1 phase?

Yes, it has to do with smoothness of torque.  The interesting thing with three phases of sinewave, each 120 degrees apart, they add up to zero!  That's a cool thing.  Hence WYE-DELTA transformers and such.  I have to look into this type of motor, but it might just end up with a relatively constant torque.  You don't get that with single-phase, where the torque is most likely proportion to the sinewave shape.

Meanwhile, I did some thinking on the plane ride home.  Came up with the idea to display both voltage and speed in percent.  That is, for the 33.3 setting, a 60.000Hz output would correspond to 100.0%.  Then you adjust up or down by up to a few percent, probably in increments of 0.1%.  Output voltage would do the same thing, but over a greater range.  On power up, the processor would measure the incoming frequency (50 or 60Hz) and automatically adjust accordingly.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 17 Mar 2009, 07:22 am
A three phase motor will provide greater start up torque and the motor will potentially run with lower resonance. 

In America we have a single phase power grid, so my 3 phase turntable motor uses a faking capacitor to provide the third leg so the motor will turn.   

However the capacitor does not provide a perfect 120/240/360 signal so my motor runs hot and a little less than perfect timing wise.  Jim can design a three phase motor control that will provide a high quality timed signal at 120, 240 and 360 degrees.  This will provide smooth torque and that is good for an idler turntable.  I have several Papst three phase AC hysteresis motors which are great turntable motors given the right contol timing.  That is where Jim comes in.

BTW I also have the Ashland single phase hysteresis motor which also sounds amazingly nice.  This is why I want Jim to build a single phase AC motor controller with frequency and voltage variability.  This would also be great for those with a VPI since HW is using a 300 rpm AC motor in his upgraded turntable offerings. 

For those with a DC synchronous motor, Jim can design something to give you better sound as well. 

Here is a link to some information to get you started.  This is just the basics.  The important thing to remember is that the motor control will deliver better speed control, speed adjustment, and this means better bass lines, better midrange timing and just plain out FUN!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase 

Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: analog97 on 18 Mar 2009, 11:27 pm
Tubes,

Thanks for a helpful simplification of the advantages of this soon-to-be-released Hagerman product.  I am all ears when it comes to potential improvements in analog reproduction.  Put me down for a pre-order.  If I gotta drill holes in a metal case, I'm ready now, having just bought a few step-drills.   :thumb:
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: dmcgown on 30 Mar 2009, 11:51 pm
Please add me as another interested party for the 3-phase controller.  I am driving my Teres with a Pabst 3 phase motor (Tascam RtoR capstan motor), and have been considering a motor drive project for some time.  Currently using a VPI SDS with the motor as a 2 phase motor (w/phasing cap).

David McGown
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 31 Mar 2009, 06:58 am
Oh no, been lazy lately.  Spending all my time re-issuing the CHIME (in silver/black), filling orders.  Haven't made any progress yet on motor controller.  Right now I'd like to decide on the processor to use.  I'm partial to the PIC, and pretty much selected one for that major HAGLABS preamp I never did.  Also working with a Rabbit board for something else, which is very handy, but I think overkill and not quite right fit.  I like the Harvard architecture of the PIC, as it lets me control timing explicity well for critical operations.  Well, not so much for chips in this design.  So far, I have lots of transformers.  Thinking of running the whole thing high voltage (no step-downs).  Just create some +/-170V rails, then 1:1 ratio for output trannys.  Make myself a high voltage discrete FET amplifier to drive them.  I think it will provide better coupling to motor.  At the moment, trying to imagine all of the interactions / impedance / EMF etc. between motor, tranny, wiring, and amplifier.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: SoundBound on 31 Mar 2009, 12:45 pm
Hi Jim

Can't wait to see the motor controller project (hint, hint  :wink:).  I see you were looking to use the PIC controller.  I know that the Atmel AVR series of microcontrollers is very popular and uses a 'modified Harvard Architecture'.  I like using it with my Arduino projects.  Curious about whether you have familiarity with Atmel's AVRs and if you do, why you might prefer the PIC over them?  The Atmel chips really provide many 'flavors' for a good design fit and the built-in ports and I/O features are quite amazing.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: heartm8 on 4 Apr 2009, 12:00 am
disregard my Haglabs and Blog questions, Jim already answered them.


I haven't posted in a while, so I have a few comments. My first suggestion is play records on a Technics MKIV 1200 with an ortofon transcriptor cartridge. No cartridge adjustment, it works and measures better than any of the jillion-dollar belt drive contraptions out there with 80 kg machined acrylic platters and crazy tonearms. Many of the old wives tales about direct drive are just that, and tons of engineering research went into the design of these turntables. This is one area where DIY just cant match. I know Jim believes in measurements and IMHO, turntables is one area where measurements audibly matter. Wow and flutter directly affect sound greatly, and most belt drive guys wont even dare publish specs which are hundreds of times worse than a technics. I have probably $60k worth of gear, and I believe turntable tweeking is the genesis of the tube, cable and power supply tweek-o-philes. And yeah, I have a high-end belt drive, and its in a box in the closet, my Technics is what I use. I don't want to deny those of you who want to have a gleaming contraption and wash your records with a machine. I just bet in a double blind test, nobody could pick your turntable over my dishsoap and shammy and technics 1200.

I have one suggestion for Jim, because there are turntable DIY guys who will buy this. There are some very cheap clock-radios made by emerson, and I love the projection display. I would love to see a display which is a LED projection on the wall. If you're asking for input, project the track number (can you program a logic controller which can count gaps on an LP?) on the wall with the RPM speed, that would be cool. I wake up at night, and have the time and temp projected on the ceiling in 1 foot tall digits. BTW Jim, where's your blog? I miss it. I want to hear some Quad ESL-67's through that new mono amp you built with the 300B mod. I checked the haglabs site, its all gone? I guess the economy? Best wishes.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 4 Apr 2009, 11:25 pm
Quote
display which is a LED projection on the wall

Well, it's not really my style. 

Quote
BTW Jim, where's your blog?

Mostly the result of a divorce.  When I can find the time, I'd like to start it up again.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 24 Apr 2009, 05:09 am
Many of the old wives tales about direct drive are just that, and tons of engineering research went into the design of these turntables.

With all due respect, I beg to differ with your analysis.  In audio, fashions shift almost as quickly as clothing fashions  do - push-pull, single ended, direct drive, belt drive, idler drive, perfect sound forever, analog ... you name it. 

In my experience, I continue to see convergence across seemingly competing architechtures, with no clear winner - only clear preferences.  While the basic characteristics of a chosen architecture are evident, components designed by competent designers who have a clue about what music sounds like sound far more more alike than they do different. 

Surely, differences will be heard.  A box speaker will typically image better than a horn, and a horn will have superior dynamics and noise floor, and will charge a room with air the way that a box speaker cannot.  The the better the expression from each design school, the more they will be alike than they will be different.

On the topic of the ineherrent inferiority of belt drive turntables, I offer the following annecdotal comments.

One of Frank Schroeder's good customers runs a Loricraft 401 and 501 - each with its own dedicated Schroeder Reference tonearm.  The two turntables sit on a wide shelf, adjacent to each other.  Frank suggested an experiment - that one turntable serve as a motor drive for the other one - linking the two with a thread serving as the drive belt.  This customer hasn't looked back and continues to run his rig in this manner.

Do I look at this as an inherrent superiority of belt drive over idler drive?  Not necessarily. 

Another case ...

Most of Doug Sax's work was mastered with either a Scully or Neuman lathe.  A few different motor drive systems were employed for the Scullys.  One of them comprised a series of cloth belts.  In another configuration at The Mastering Lab, he drove two lathes with a third one - in the manner of Frank Schroeder's experiment with his customer's Loricrafts.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Sonny on 29 Apr 2009, 11:33 pm
This thread is very interesting...I've been looking into the Mark Kelly controller and even tried contacting Mark, but have failed to get a reply.  Therefore, I am absolutely interested in where this thread may lead!
Thanks and looking forward to it.
T
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Berndt on 29 Apr 2009, 11:57 pm
ditto kiddo
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: somejoe on 5 May 2009, 06:53 am
Jim,

I volunteer to be one of your beta testers. I have the standard VPI motor on my TNT-5 and have been looking for a replacement for the VPI SDS for some time now. Last time the SDS went bad (speed started fluctuating) it cost me $400 for a replacement one - VPI says these units are not repairable, so they just replaced it.

BTW, I also have the Pabst 3-phase motors, so I could test that as well.

Let me know.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 6 May 2009, 05:26 am
Ugh, sadly I've made no progress on this front yet.  Hmmm, an unfixable item usually means it was made somewhere else?

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Sonny on 6 May 2009, 02:17 pm
Ugh, sadly I've made no progress on this front yet.  Hmmm, an unfixable item usually means it was made somewhere else?

jh

Jim, here's  hoping you make some progress on it..we are all in anticipation of it!
Tuan
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Berndt on 7 May 2009, 01:38 am
+1 for a controller adaptable for the Pabst in the empires...
I can do the major speed changes with pullies, fwiw.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: bmckenney on 28 May 2009, 11:50 pm
The Walker speed controller also has an absolute phase switch apparently works quite well but I have no idea what absolute AC phase is.

And to me indicators aren't required and if it keeps the cost and complexity down, I would prefer not to have them.  Provide the ability to adjust the frequency so a person can tune the speed of the table to exactly 33.3 and we check it with the likes of an DC strobe like the KAB.  And throw the best technology at regenerating superb AC power.

If you want this to be popular, it should be as good as a Walker controller.  I've tried a VPI SDS on a Nottingham motor and the benefit was marginal.   And I've heard a Walker spanks a VPI with this motor.  So thats the bench mark.  If you can produce a kit that is as good as or better than a Walker, for a reasonable price, it should take the market by storm.

Bryan
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 31 May 2009, 07:03 pm
Thanks, I'll take a look at the Walker.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: GGA on 3 Jun 2009, 12:55 am
Quote
At the moment, trying to imagine all of the interactions / impedance / EMF etc. between motor, tranny, wiring, and amplifier.

Wouldn't it best to design the controller for a specific modified motor, which you would also sell? This might also simplify your design? It seems critical to remove the caps in an AC motor for best results. The Walker retails for $1500 but is still limited by the caps in the motor.

Perhaps you could also offer a second "universal" verson for those who wish to keep their motor.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: bigfishe on 9 Jun 2009, 12:35 am
I love my Oracle as much as my Cuss t em Sparta broadcast  aaTT
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: SoundBound on 26 Jun 2009, 09:02 pm
Has anybody heard of or seen any DIY turntable projects that make use of old reel-to-reel motors? 

I have come across an old Sony reel-to-reel, that is not not working, all the rubber idler wheels are worn and useless and it's not a great unit anyway.  Well, it has an excellent AC motor which is very powerful and quiet too.  I thought this might make a great motor for a DIY turntable, belt driven.

It would need speed regulation and I am hoping that this TT controller project would be just the ticket.  It looks like a multiphase AC motor as there are 3 wires going to it and there is a capacitor associated with it (phase delay?) .

If anyone has any experience with this or heard of any projects using this, I would be curious to find out.  If it's feasible I would salvage the motor in hopes of being able to use it when Jim reveals his controller to the world.

Motor is a 100 VAC 50/60 Hz
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 27 Jun 2009, 05:54 am
It might be dangerous to simply speculate here, but generally speaking the motor will have how many wires equal to how many windings.  So a single phase motor will have two wires, a three phase motor will have three wires and a two phase motor would have 4 wires.

But what about a motor that has two motor winding wires and an internal ground connect.  Now you have three wires but still have a single phase motor.

The owners manual is likely to state in the specifications what type motor they are running.

Do some more research and let us know.  BTW what does the motor inspection plate say?  It will generally say everything a tech needs to know to test it for proper functionality.

Cheers!

Cheers!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Tone Deaf on 24 Jul 2009, 07:25 pm
Hi Jim, have you had any further thoughts on this proj development?
TD
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 2 Aug 2009, 04:32 am
I'm sorry to report no progress.  Day job is kicking my butt.  I'm not finding the time to spend on this design.  No small project, either.  I was hoping to have proto by RMAF, but that ain't gonna happen.  :(

I do have a small project in the works.  Not for TTs, though.  Sure was a lot easier getting the R&D done when Hagtech was my only job.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 2 Aug 2009, 06:31 am
Amen Jim......

I have five projects in the works and where I might be able to get all five done in a month with no career, I will be lucky to have all five done by the end of September or even early October....

Who the hell said a motor controller would be easy?

Building high level motor controls is an art as much as a science.

Cheers!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Demsy on 4 Aug 2009, 03:45 am
Jim, just an input to your TT project.
I use the Michell QC Power Supply, all pretty staright forward. Uses bi-color LED, green for 33-1/3 and turns red for 45 rpm.
There is one guy here in Jakarta that build and sell a controlled frequency power supply. It actually rectifies the AC supply and with an oscilator it then generates the correct frequency for 33-1/3 & 45 RPM. It has 2 selector switches, one for the frequency and the other is for voltage/frequency choice (220v/50Hz & 110v/60Hz). It is able to supply up to 11 watts, which is more than enough as in average t/t motors consume about 6 watts. Some people uses this thing for their phono preamps and claim it brings improvements.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 12 Aug 2009, 05:50 am
Quote
Some people uses this thing for their phono preamps and claim it brings improvements.

Yes, I would agree.  A clean supply can often help.  It would be perfect for small solid state phono preamps.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 22 Aug 2009, 02:37 am
Ok, I'm back on it.  Trying to simplify the concept.  Looking at transformers - the one I like is $50!  Need two, one for input, one for output.  Also goint to make first version a single-phase only.  Just plug and play with most turntables.  It will give me the technology base I need to go after 3-phase (which is too small a market to pay for the R&D). 

I don't like the step-up tranny concept.  Planning to make a full-voltage power amplifier for output stage, then coupled to load via 1:1 tranny.  The cheap trannys have too much winding resistance.  I want to run this open-loop, no negative feedback.  That should make it play nice with most loads.  Hence, the need for the expensive tranny.

Picked out the CPU.  Going with the PIC16F688.  I works with other projects I have in mind too. 

Price, I'm a little worried about.  $100 in just iron.  Box and circuit board and other parts will bring it to $200 to $250.  That could make it a retail price of a grand.  More than I was thinking.  Doesn't give me much competitive advantage.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 22 Aug 2009, 07:42 am
I think the VPI SDS controller is a single phase and 950 dollars or somewhere around that.

A three phase motor control is what, the equivalent of 3 x 50 watt amplifiers.....  Not a cheap proposition and you have to deal with the timing issues.

I did not expect to buy a kit cheap.  I figured a decent 3 phase power supply would cost at least 500 to 600 dollars as a kit.

Cheers!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: fatty on 23 Aug 2009, 04:41 pm
Jim,

Don't think you will sell that many unless the price comes in less than $500.00 for the kit.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: mike1964 on 23 Aug 2009, 04:58 pm
The speed was near dead on with the Spacedeck, but near .3% fast with the 294, so I picked up a demo Wave Mechanic.  Controllers sure can be pricey, so it will be interesting to see what Jim comes up with. 
Very interesting thread.  I use a Wave Mechanic with my Rega P25, as I happen to be very sensitive to pitch (quite an expensive affliction as far as music listening goes) and the Rega was very annoying to me w/o the controller. 

The Wave Mechanic is a good target, Jim, as retail is ~$1600.  The Walker is supposed to be very good as well.  I'm actually soon getting a new 'table which has a DC motor, so won't need the Wave Mechanic any longer, so will be up for sale. 
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 23 Aug 2009, 05:35 pm
Hi Jim,

We're best of buds, and far be it from me to to tell you where your business model lies, but to my way of thinking, if you don't put the best there is in your crossshairs, you're wasting your time.

To my way of thinking, you make the best controller you can, and then strip away features for a budget model.  Heck! Intel has successfully been doing this with their processors for as long as I can remember.

That's just me ;-)

Cheers,
Thom
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PatOMalley on 23 Aug 2009, 11:57 pm
competitive advantage. <= Sometimes increasing your price for a finished product puts you IN the competition.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: bigfishe on 24 Aug 2009, 03:07 am
Im with Thom on that one!!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 24 Aug 2009, 02:12 pm
Hi Pat,

I'm not sure I understand you, but if you're equating increased price with "perception of quality", well there are all too many incompetents and charlatans out there who are building and selling exactly this sort of product. 

There are audiophiles who are unfortunate enough to buy into this, due to a combination of inexperience, listening to clueless reviewers, and frequently having too much money burning a hole in their pockets.  I'm not as concerned with the fellow looking to throw $$$ at his solution as I am the poor working stiff with 3 kids and a mortgage.

If you drop down one level on the price scale, the world doesn't need another SDS controller.  It's my contention that there are enough "me too" products out there, such that Jim will sell too few of this sort of product to make it worth his  development time - even if he applies some innovative concepts - at least if he starts off with this sort of product.

Jim has the smarts to design something first rate, and this is how he can thrive in the audio biz.  He can then apply his not inconsiderable smarts to leverage this development into a design that the poor working stiff can afford

I think this is the only way he can rightfully claim some of the market in the affordable class of components.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it ;-)

Cheers,
Thom
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PatOMalley on 24 Aug 2009, 04:10 pm
Thom,

I largely agree. I even have three kids and a mortgage!
All I was saying is that yeah the kits can stay online for us but the finished shrink wrapped job can go for a 'competitive' price. Which it rightfully should being that I think Hagerman's stuff is as good as stuff 3x his prices.

An empty board is only going to go to the DIY guys, who else? The finsished product should command at least as much as machines that are it's peers, not to mention inferior.

I am not sure if this is the right place to mention this but I am sure Jim is watching so here goes. The cut chassis are longer available from JH because he took a loss on them. I think he should charge enough to make a profit on them and make them available again. I had to run around like crazy to get mine cut, too long a story. I would have happily paid more for one from JH being that it would have the silkscreen.

I would buy another Cornet2 as well but I do not want to go through the chassis thing again so I may go to another kit just because of that one thing.

How many other DIYers are put off by having to deal with the chassis?
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: fatty on 24 Aug 2009, 07:33 pm
I think that there are more than one way to skin a cat----ie., for example--the Cinemag transformers are 300 % cheaper than Jensen trannys and 500 % cheaper than some of the "hand wound,custom built with exoitic wire" trannys but Cinemag has always built a quality product. There examples of this in every category of audiophile products. I personally hope that Jim comes up with a controller that is affordable---by this I mean a DYI product that comes in at under $500. If it is the $800 to $1000 range--I will not buy it !
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: analog97 on 24 Aug 2009, 09:38 pm
Quote
How many other DIYers are put off by having to deal with the chassis?

I am in that camp.  If it weren't for Jim's offering of the "factory" chassis, I might not have my Cornet2 and Clarinet.  I now have a couple step-drills, just in case I need to try them out on a new kit.  Basically, I have a "perfect" factory C2 and Clarinet and a shitty-looking-but-great-sounding PICCOLO that I botched the casework on....darn....gotta fix that, but it will still look "home-made".... :duh:
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 29 Aug 2009, 10:50 pm
I just need chassis designs that are easier to work with.  Perhaps then I can make them available for DIY.

Meanwhile, thinking I might just eliminate the output transformer altogether...

jh :wink:
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 30 Aug 2009, 06:54 am
Jim the Lansing case work is gorgeous. 

All you need to do is find a local machine shop with a cnc and you are in business.  They can cut out all the holes in minute accuracy.

When I do them on my drill press, its easy to get off a 1/16 of an inch.  That is visible to the eye. 

I bet there are shops salivating to do some extra work for profit.

Hey if anyone wants to contribute some extra dollars my way I will invest in the CNC and do the case work for everyone.  Its only 25-60k dollars to do CNC.

Penny change!

Jim, I want to super charge my new SL1200 Technics project table.  Its a 30 v affair.  HELP me!  BTW there are approximately 3 million SL1200 turntables sold around the world.  This would be a good market for a DD motor control.   


Cheers!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 30 Aug 2009, 04:05 pm
Jim's problem is twofold:


Regarding the second point, my guess (based on his earlier experiences) is that this puts him in a bit of a pickle.  There are quite a few "me too" / "I need one now" folks - people swept up in their enthusiasm until the time comes to write a check.  Ask me how I know:o   It's difficult to get a read on the real demand for any product, and further complicated by the current climate of economic uncertainty.

Maybe when the design begins to take form, he can model the first run after what Doc B. did with the first Foreplay line stage - do some kind of subscription deal.  The bookkeeping could be onerous however.

Cheers,
Thom
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Tone Deaf on 30 Sep 2009, 06:55 pm
Just thought I'd pob by and say hello, and stop this thread from disappearing off the bottom of page 1 !! 
 
Still hoping the idea gets off the ground.  Is it still in your mind Jim?  I appreciate the difficulty in finding a novel approach and your reluctance to just put out a "me too" product.  Be great if you manage it though! :D

TD
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 30 Sep 2009, 11:52 pm
I put a lot of thought and drawings into what it should be and do.  Suprisingly, it turned out to be a lot like the VPI box.  I guess that's where many of the suggestions came from?

Looking at ways to get the price down.  Clever, simple circuit tricks.  Trying to squeeze into a small box.  Worked out an elegant way to synthesize the waveforms without resorting to PLL or other jittery type circuits.  The sinewaves are created using simple counters and a 1236 sequence.  I have crystal locked (direct) frequency control to better than 0.01Hz increments.  Think I will split system into two boards: one controller and one power supply / amplifier.  That way, one controller can drive three amplifier cards for a 3-phase solution.  The regular product will just be 1-phase.  I have it doing 33.3 and 45 rpm at flick of switch, variable frequency and output amplitude.  Display is 2 x 16 character LCD.  Everything microprocessor controlled.  Output amplifier probably a class-D synchronous amplifier, no tranny.

I measured my REGA P3.  Only 1.5W to drive motor.  Starts up even at 95Vac and if spinning, will continue to run down to less than 50Vac. 

Haven't decided how to do the power supply yet.  Should it be a PFC type?  That would save on size and cost.  I also need a low voltage supply for processor and opamps.  Two tranformers?  Actually, a tube tranny would work, using B+ for output and heater windings for the digital stuff.  It comes down to cost and size.  This can't be no ordinary inverter, either.  The output has to be a very clean low distortion sinewave.  Still some inventing to do before I start drawing the schematic.

Display might look something like this:

MODE  SPEED  POWER
 33   33.34   089

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: tubesforever on 1 Oct 2009, 07:54 am
Jim,

Its very heartening to hear your beginning to flesh out a product.  Please don't be too perfectionistic here.  Get out a workable solution and use the profit to enhance it and perfect it.

This is definitely a product where even basic improvements to the power supply will yield easy to hear improvements.

Get it perfected over time and we will all be in your debt. 

I don't know if folks out there realize how much of the wow and flutter is due to the motor power control or lack there of.....
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: BobM on 1 Oct 2009, 12:47 pm
How about driving it with a 12 watt lead acid battery and take it completely off the grid? That's what Mark Kelly did with his controller. As an option you could also throw in a simple voltage regulator and a jack and have it driven from a 12V DC laptop power supply (that's how I implemented Mark's design).
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 1 Oct 2009, 09:32 pm
Having a battery leads to more issues.  Recharging, more cost, size, etc.  It's like an unnecessary bandaid - to correct something that wasn't designed right in the first place.  I don't see using rotten ac power is a real problem.  The whole idea is to clean it up.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PET-240 on 6 Feb 2013, 11:15 am
Hey Jim,

Just wondering where this got too?

Thanks, hope all is well.

Drew.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Berndt on 6 Feb 2013, 02:53 pm
Ditto Jim !
Still using these papst motors. I'd be stoked to have a speed controller. I don't need a case..
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 6 Feb 2013, 08:07 pm
Haven't put much thought into it.  Although I have done some very relevant work with microcontrollers lately...

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Berndt on 6 Feb 2013, 08:10 pm
I'd be happy to spring for two to start.
I can do the casework and final assembly.
Thanks for still considering this project..
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PET-240 on 7 Feb 2013, 12:48 pm
Hey Jim,

I would also look seriously at  it, looking at an ft that is set up for 60hz and Aussie don't have that!

Thanks,

Drew
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PET-240 on 8 Feb 2013, 01:30 pm
Hey Jim,

To be clear, require 3 phase for papst motor as per Mark Kelly's efforts.

Many Thanks,

Way beyond my skills!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 8 Feb 2013, 06:24 pm
I had been thinking of a modular design with a common controller that would generate the three phases.  Then a separate output driver.  If you needed three phase, then you make two extra output drivers.  Or something like that - it complicates a little when thinking of power supplies...

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Feb 2013, 06:35 pm
This may be OT, but what are the advantages of upgrading a motor controller vs upgrading a motor?
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PET-240 on 8 Feb 2013, 09:32 pm
That'd be sensational, do believe you have two crash test dummies in Berndt and I. I do machine control for a living, whilst I could use a3 phase vsd, I worry about the carrier freq noise etc. Currently using 24vdc and a 110v 60hz puresine inverter. Still dunno how good that is.
Appreciate your efforts Jim!
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 8 Feb 2013, 11:34 pm
Two reasons to upgrade.  One is the obvious noise on your existing AC line.  Look at it on a scope.  If you have a big SS amplifier on the same branch then the top and bottom of sinewave is likely lopped off.  There will also be other kinks and distortions, perhaps a lot of hash.  Things like laser printers, refrigerators, fluorescent lights all contribute different types of noise back onto the power line.  And that is the same AC you are sending to your TT motor.

Fortunately, this is pretty easy to clean up with low pass filtering from a good AC line filter.  That one trick alone will help to stabilize the motor so it is not trying to respond to any other signals other than the main 60Hz component. 

The other reason is speed stability and variation.  Ok, all the power plants are driven from master clocks, so long term drift is not an issue.  Your clock on the wall will keep perfect time.  However, there may be subsonic variations, although I can't imagine they are very big.  But when it comes to constant pitch playback, every bit helps.  We want the motor driven at a very steady pace.  It is also desirable to change that pitch!  Not every TT is machined perfectly or perhaps the belt drive is worn.  A motor controller with frequency adjustability can fix this. 

Oh yeah, and for 3-phase motors, again, they are not machined or wound perfectly.  The magnetic fields may not be perfectly 120 degrees apart!  Minimal vibration or cogging of the motor may require slight phase tuning of the three drive signals.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Feb 2013, 12:03 am

Thank you for taking the time to give that excellent answer.

And in what cases would it be a good idea to upgrade a motor itself? Barring motor malfuctions, of course...
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PET-240 on 9 Feb 2013, 12:11 pm
One other I can think of is that single phase motors have  two windings, the current in one of the winding is out of phase with the voltage by 90', this generates the rotating magnetic field in the windings that the stator follows. Dependant on the number of poles in the motor, the slip %, which is the amount the stator is trailing the rmf in rpm etc. For example, a 4 pole motor at 50hz has a synchronous speed of 1500rpm, however the stator can only output from around 1350-1450rpm. The loss is the slip, the slip is not always constant dependant on load, so a transient groove in the lp may cause the speed to fluctuate slightly and change the way it was intended to sound, PRAT is probably the audiophile term I would put forward. Rega tables apparently have a rep for great PRAT, I haven't heard one to say.
Does that make sense?
Cheers,

Drew.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 9 Feb 2013, 08:22 pm
This may be OT, but what are the advantages of upgrading a motor controller vs upgrading a motor?

Think of it as you would any component upgrade.  In addition to the possibility of better pitch stability (you may have no problems here), the smaller or micro-time domain is where the mother lode lies.  In this micro-domain, you get extended bandwidth, less top end distortion, more harmonically rich (and yet quicker) bass.  I could go on and on. Rather than expound further, check this post on my forum, which links to a review of the Rockport Sirius turntable:

http://www.galibierdesign.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=137 (http://www.galibierdesign.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=137)

As far as new stock motors are concerned, fuggedaboudit.  There's just nothing worthwhile in the AC synchronous world  (2-phase or 3-phase) fractional horsepower (10-40 watts) motors until you start working with suppliers to the military at $500 to $1,000 per unit.  If someone can correct me on this, I'd be delighted to know. 

The industry has moved to digitally controlled drive systems employing hall sensors and/or encoders (depending on the resolution level you're after).

Universality is a problem Jim faces in coming up with a workable design: does he go at upgrading existing stock (Linn's, Regas, Oracles, VPIs, etc.) or does he wipe the slate clean and go at a completely new solution?  The two solutions are completely different due to the shifting architecture of these fractional horsepower motors.  If he goes with new motor technologies, he helps you to future-proof your design, as well as to improve on your current motor.  The downside to this is the physical implementation - adapting the motor mount and the pulley.  There are a lot of considerations.

If 500 of you got together, agreed on an approach, and wrote him big checks, you'd have a world-beating solution.  Somehow, I don't think that's about to happen  :o

Jim - my take is that anything worthwhile coming from you (and everything you do is worthwhile) will be priced out of reach of most owners.  Maybe I'm wrong about what a Rega owner is willing to pay.  The VPI owner looking to improve on an SDS power supply however ($1K when I last checked) is another story, as is the Linn owner. 

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 10 Feb 2013, 06:25 am
As far as new stock motors are concerned, fuggedaboudit.
I was a bit unclear in this comment.  Of course, a top notch controller will improve your Rega, and you'd be a very happy camper.  If you're starting a design with a clean slate however, a better motor would be .... well, ... better.

Sorry for any confusion.

Cheers,
Thom
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: PET-240 on 10 Feb 2013, 06:42 am
G'day Thom,

Appreciate you dropping by, quick question, what motor would you recommend looking at?

And your thoughts regard a Garrard 301?

Thanks,

Drew
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Galibier_Numero_Un on 10 Feb 2013, 06:00 pm
G'day Thom,

Appreciate you dropping by, quick question, what motor would you recommend looking at?

And your thoughts regard a Garrard 301?

Thanks,
Drew

Tough call, Drew.  I haven't researched the idler drive units, so I can't really comment intelligently.  If I were in your position (since this is a one-off and not something that requires new production stock quantities), I'd start by researching motors by Papst.  Many of them are quite large however, so fitting them inboard will be a challenge. 

In new stock, about your only choice is the Airpax (Phillips/Premotec) used in the various Brittish belt-drive rigs.  This would be a fall-back scenario.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: roscoeiii on 10 Feb 2013, 06:09 pm
Tough call, Drew.  I haven't researched the idler drive units, so I can't really comment intelligently.  If I were in your position (since this is a one-off and not something that requires new production stock quantities), I'd start by researching motors by Papst.  Many of them are quite large however, so fitting them inboard will be a challenge. 

In new stock, about your only choice is the Airpax (Phillips/Premotec) used in the various Brittish belt-drive rigs.  This would be a fall-back scenario.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

And for those of us with stand-alone motors, any other motor recommendations in addition to the Pabst?
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Berndt on 18 Feb 2013, 01:56 am
Jim I'd kick 500 $ into a pabst motor controller kickstarter.
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: brian.goodman on 19 Mar 2013, 02:58 am
Jim,

I have an extra 3 phase Papst Ausenlaufer motor from an idler wheel turntable, which will give you an extra motor to experiment on. 

If that is a bit of kickstarter for the project, I am happy to ship it to you at my own expense.

Brian
(happy Bugle owner)
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 20 Mar 2013, 01:51 am
Thanks, but I have a bit of a backlog at the moment.  Gotta finish up the remotes for the TRUMPET REFERENCE, then do the UFO kit.  Also thinking about a possible C3 kit for next year, a CONCERTO linestage to go with the REFERENCE, and a few other projects.  But yeah, I'll be pondering the TT controller in the meantime...

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: BobM on 20 Mar 2013, 01:28 pm
Jim, any chance you might be offering "upgrades" to the original Trumpet, or possibly sharing some things with orignal Trumpet owners so they can bring their units up to current spec?

Thanks
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: hagtech on 21 Mar 2013, 06:00 am
Off topic!  And no, I probably won't.  The work would be too extensive.  Unless you want to pay the $1355 difference?  Then I'd do it.

jh
Title: Re: TT Motor Controller
Post by: Berndt on 13 Sep 2013, 09:09 pm
Still interested in the 3ph motor controller...
Thanks!