Journey of my DAC 10

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Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #40 on: 23 Oct 2017, 06:50 pm »
What exactly, in the actual physical world, IS a directional fuse? How do you make a fuse that passes AC "better" when inserted one way than in the other. Forget listening tests. Tell me at least in theory how to make one, even a bad one. How do you fabricate it and put the arrow on it? And how, when designing and fabricating, do you know the arrow goes one way and not the other?

Some audiophile fuses do come with arrows on them so the hearer can establish a consistent pattern with his components.

AC consists of?  .... Current.... voltage... amperage.  Three different aspects of AC electricity.  Where they all discovered simultaneously?   Apparently, science has yet to discover another aspect of electricity that may explain this phenomena. 

Please... And,  you talk about arrogance?   Do you know how arrogant you sound to those who can easily hear what I speak of?   We do. We shrug our shoulders and take the abuse... and enjoy the fruit of what we know exists.  Just because we can not explain how something exists does not negate its existence. Its when some try to invent explanations for what they know exists is when the naysayers lick their chops. 

I will simply say... I do not know why it works.  But, it does under the right circumstances.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #41 on: 23 Oct 2017, 07:00 pm »
What exactly, in the actual physical world, IS a directional fuse? How do you make a fuse that passes AC "better" when inserted one way than in the other. Forget listening tests. Tell me at least in theory how to make one, even a bad one. How do you fabricate it and put the arrow on it? And how, when designing and fabricating, do you know the arrow goes one way and not the other?

Apparently there is s standard in the industry to manufacturing fuses...

Some audiophile types provide arrows as to gain a consistent orientation.  Others provide words or symbols on the casing that also allow one to determine a consistency of orientation.

This is no endorsement of any particular brand.  One may sound better for your system's balance than another, and may cost less.





Try reading here, please ... 
http://www.stereotimes.com/acc082912.shtml





006.9

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #42 on: 24 Oct 2017, 02:07 pm »
So . . .

electrical phenomena science has yet to discover . . .

fuses printed with electrical schematic symbols unknown to any professor at MIT . . .

fuses that need 200 hours of "burn in" . . .

fuses using "passive Quantum Inductive Coupling" methods . . .
 

I'm out of here. Heading down to the used record store to buy a stack of CDs instead of a fuse made of placebonium.


Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #43 on: 24 Oct 2017, 05:49 pm »
Sir...

Be a skeptic.  Its OK...   But be aware.  Many are benefiting from what you wish to scorn.

Keep in mind that there are many who are hearing the differences.  I suggest you might do a Google search on "Audiophile Fuses." 

I was not immediately open to the idea.  I thought it was foolish.  I am not a rich man that can afford to throw away my money.

 

RafaPolit

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #44 on: 24 Oct 2017, 08:45 pm »
So . . .

electrical phenomena science has yet to discover . . .

fuses printed with electrical schematic symbols unknown to any professor at MIT . . .

fuses that need 200 hours of "burn in" . . .

fuses using "passive Quantum Inductive Coupling" methods . . .
 

I'm out of here. Heading down to the used record store to buy a stack of CDs instead of a fuse made of placebonium.
Welcome to my, apparently "uneducated", universe.  One where rules and not magic govern the laws of physics.  I love Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings for entertainment purposes, but I am not ready to believe that swishing a wand will make my components sound better, ESPECIALLY when the wand is a $2000 gadget and the one telling you it will work better is the one making the profit from the wand.

Your questions is what I look for: where is this 'directionality' coming from? From the fuse printed by the company to charge you $500 for it.  Sure! Believe them, don't believe science! What do researchers know, let it all in the hands of marketers to just sell you air.

Hey! There's an idea!!! I will box air and say that it has better sound transmission characteristics than your house's air, and that sound will be much better if you unbox the air prior to a serious listening.  You would need to give the air 20 minutes to just get in the same temperature as the air in your home, and then you will enjoy much clearer sound.  I bet lots of people will swear as to hearing the difference!!!  I could actually manage to turn around the phrase: "sell air" into something really profitable!  I just need to label the box so it has directional arrows and I'm golden.

Heck, I don't mind sounding arrogant! I am always willing to be proven wrong, but by something more tangible than: "only I and my super gear can hear the difference, you must be deaf or have poor equipment".  Can it be measured?  Is there any logic behind that?

I asked the same questions as you: if a fuse has a directionality, it can surely be measured, as in: current will flow in one direction and not in the other.  If that is the case, one way will transmit energy, the other wont.  Its a: it either works or it doesn't type of scenario.  Its not a: in this direction the sound is much better, in the other the current worsens the sound.  That is just absurd, no matter how hard companies selling $500 fuses for printing over a $2 fuse an arrow try to convince me otherwise.

And I will try to keep people from being cheated by that mentality.  I may save a person from wasting their hard earned money.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #45 on: 24 Oct 2017, 09:04 pm »

Heck, I don't mind sounding arrogant! I am always willing to be proven wrong, but by something more tangible than: "only I and my super gear can hear the difference, you must be deaf or have poor equipment".  Can it be measured?  Is there any logic behind that?

I said a "good system."   Not the ultra high quality (expensive)  gear itself.   I said this:

In a GOOD system in the USA, AC polarity is audible when its reversed.  In a DULL system?  You can do what ever you please, and you will hear no differences.  Power cords -nada.  Fuses - nada.   In a GOOD system?  A real eye opener! 

A system that is set up for optimal sound is a GOOD system... It does not have to be the most expensive stuff out there.

A good system?   Would you consider a NuForce HAP100, and STA 100, the ultimate in high end?   I heard fuse differences with that set up.  Of course...  For a GOOD system you will need quality interconnects and power cords, and speaker cables in the process to gain that level of purity.  I listened with speakers that are phase coherent. Not ultra expensive types..

You did not read?  I took the time to show you documentation about how USA's AC wall sockets work.   Its documented!  But..You have only one notion in your head about AC not being directional.  But AC carries more than just voltage.  More than just current.  More than just amperage.  What else does it carry? 

Why do we find this then if its always non directional ? 



Why can the neutral and hot not be interchanged when wiring up the socket? 



You keep ignoring facts.  Proven facts.   

But, all you want to dwell on is only one aspect of what goes on with AC.  You throw out all the rest.  When you do?  Its allows you to do what you have been doing because you enjoy acting that way.

.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #46 on: 25 Oct 2017, 02:50 am »


I have a question for all those folks who claim AC can not have direction.   

If that were true?   

We would never need to wire our speakers in phase with each other. 

It would make no difference in we have one speaker with its positive and negative crossed over. 

Would it now?

 :scratch:   

RafaPolit

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #47 on: 25 Oct 2017, 06:56 am »

I have a question for all those folks who claim AC can not have direction.   

If that were true?   

We would never need to wire our speakers in phase with each other. 

It would make no difference in we have one speaker with its positive and negative crossed over. 

Would it now?

 :scratch:   
Now you are mixing phase with polarity. Bring on the misconceptions and the distractions to prove your point!

But since you sent me to get educated, maybe you should follow your own advice:
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=1278137

Here is a good link for you to read, especially try post by DriverGuru:

Quote

It doesn't really matter which polarity the speakers are connected with, as long as they are all connected with the same polarity.

For each channel, the easiest thing is of course to connect the red terminal on the amp or receiver or whatever to the red terminal on the corresponding speaker, and black to black. OR, if you like, you could connect red on the amp to black on the speaker, and vice versa.

However you do it, if you now reverse all of the speakers' connections, you will reverse the system's "absolute phase". But absolute phase doesn't matter. Some people claim that it does, some claim to be able to detect when a system's absolute phase is "wrong", but this is one of those things that has never been reliably shown in listening tests. There is utterly no guarantee that the rest of your system preserves absolute phase anyway. In fact, this non-guarantee goes all the way back to the recording studio. There is no guarantee that when the studio mic's diaphragm was pushed in by the positive-going portion of a sound wave, that this will be recorded with positive-going numbers in the recording. Or that positive-going numbers in the recording will result in a positive-going waveform out of your amp. So the odds are that about half of your recordings are recorded with "reversed phase". So whichever way you hook up the speakers, they'll be "wrong" for about half of your recordings. To repeat: It won't matter.

But:

Connect one channel red-to-red and black-to-black, and the other red-to-black and black-to-red, and your speakers really are wired wrong. They're "out of phase" in the only way that matters: Relative to each other. (So what we are talking about here is called "relative phase".) If both amp channels' outputs swing positive at the same time, one speaker cone will move in while the other moves out. That is not what is supposed to happen. It will not result in anything like complete cancellation, but it will sound somewhere between weird and awful. Bass will be diminished, and as you walk around between the speakers you will notice your "where-is-the-sound-source" directional sense doing backflips.

Edit - added: I actually recommend that everyone who's interested in audio try this (connecting your mains out of phase w.r.t. each other) at least once, just to see what it sounds like. Different people will of course experience it differently. It's the most fun if you play a monaural source. If you have an FM tuner with a "stereo/mono" switch, that'll do it. One point that is interesting is how incomplete the cancellation is outside of the bass range, even if you put the speakers right next to each other.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #48 on: 25 Oct 2017, 07:23 am »

Tan Raymond

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #49 on: 25 Oct 2017, 10:57 am »
Hi
If you remove the wall receptacle, you would see 2 or 3 lines. Put the fuse between the "hot" line and the receptacle then use the polarity tester to check. If its good, change the direction of the fuse and check with the same tool again, ............... Hope you see the answer there, good luck and take caution when dealing with "hot" wires.

Tan Raymond

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #50 on: 25 Oct 2017, 10:59 am »
Oh, my house receptacle has no ground wire, thus 2 wires only. Hope this clarify 2 or 3 lines. In fact you can put the fuse in any of thr lines, if you want to try ..................
I hope we can put this fuse matter to rest. Thanks.

Wind Chaser

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #51 on: 25 Oct 2017, 01:45 pm »
Tan,

How many hours were you able to put on your DAC-10 since your last post? Any changes for the better?

Tan Raymond

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #52 on: 25 Oct 2017, 02:16 pm »
Hi WindChaser
I am not one that belief deeply in running in or burning in, but in cycles. It's the number of on/of that gives the system the heating and cooling cycles that sets the system or break it. You may have notice that most components fails within a couple of months if its sub quality or it will work for years till the contacts or capacitors or something gets worn out due to age. I had given it about 30 cycles from 30 minutes to 2 hours each cycle. I am getting used to the sound. I find it more revealing as compared to my previous dac. As a pre, I have only a passive Tisbury to compare, and certainly it out performs that. I will be getting the st-10 this Friday, and will give some cycles before I can comment on it. The st-10 replaced the accuphase a30 as I wanted more watts for my speakers. If I have the budget, I would have continue the accuphase route.
Sorry for the long read.

Wind Chaser

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #53 on: 25 Oct 2017, 03:56 pm »
Hi WindChaser
I am not one that belief deeply in running in or burning in, but in cycles. It's the number of on/of that gives the system the heating and cooling cycles that sets the system or break it.

I have never taken that approach. My experience is 24/7 gets the job done. Some components take longer than others, but the bottom line it takes a fair bit of time to get there and you can't judge a piece of gear or enjoy it until it gets there. How long are you willing to wait? That's one of the advantages of buying something used over something new, you don't have to wait, it should already be broken in.

seikosha

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #54 on: 25 Oct 2017, 04:13 pm »
I've seen amp designers also talk about the importance of cycling.  I think it helps the capacitors to form.

Tan Raymond

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #55 on: 27 Oct 2017, 02:45 am »
Hi
If after 30 cycles and I still cannot get used to the sound or does not like the sound, then that component is not for me. I would not go 500 hours for break in as that to me is 2 to 3 years. Most of my components are selected based on ectensive research, unfortunately not by auditioning - no shops around 200 kilometers are available. So far I'm able to adapt and like some gears, the rest is all back into the market at high lost. Nice to live in a modern city, like yours. For me it's a cost to pay for my hobby, and I will settle for compromises to get what I want (budget and time constraint).

Wind Chaser

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #56 on: 27 Oct 2017, 06:14 am »
Hi
If after 30 cycles and I still cannot get used to the sound or does not like the sound, then that component is not for me.

Even after you ran your 30 cycles, I would suggest you run it 24/7 for at least one full week before drawing any conclusions.

rustydoglim

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #57 on: 27 Oct 2017, 06:43 am »
Hi Tan Raymond - glad that you like DAC-10 and getting ST-10. Incredible combination.
To others:
Regarding auditioning of high-end audio products, since there are less and less dealers in this business, dealers who sell online usually allow for 30 day money back guarantee (make sure you confirm with dealer).

Tan Raymond

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #58 on: 30 Oct 2017, 09:52 am »
Thanks Jason. I support the Singapore dealer, its my 3rd purchase from him. Unfortunately there is no such thing as home audition for me as I'm living overseas. Jye is a very nice guy and does not push but let me listens to what ever music I like and made my own decisions. However, the speakers and room set up are all different so it's still a purchase based on a certain faith and intuition. So far, the dac 10 had not disappoint so hope the st10 does the same.

Tan Raymond

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  • Retired and coming back to music after 30 years
Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #59 on: 30 Oct 2017, 10:19 am »
Hi Windchaser,
Thanks, appreciate your feedback. I will keep that in mind with the st-10.