Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?

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jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #20 on: 17 Jul 2017, 05:09 am »
Hello all,
I have been busy today so now is the first time to touch the keyboard.
In answer to your interesting question jea48, I did a quick check and nothing is mentioned anywhere on the unit about it being UL Listed. My guess is that the cost and time for listing did not outweighs the number they expected to sell.  Audio Prism felt that the number they would sell was not worth the cost to obtain the status.
But that is just conjecture on my part.
I appreciate all those who have stepped up to help move forward my original question. 
It has been very enlightening.

So Speedskater, you are suggesting that the unit might have a "bootleg ground"?
How interesting.
I must say that I am not quite sure exactly what that means.
I have an idea but I am not real clear that I can wrap my mind around it.

Given all that has been posted before, are you saying that in spite of what I originally asked, perhaps my unit is functionally working correctly?
Great news if that were to be true.
I agree about why they put a rocker switch at all 4 of the outlets to change the phase. But perhaps it helps what ever is plugged into the socket to sound better.
But again its just supposition on my part. Given how electronic equipment is designed it would seem somewhat redundant. Maybe its the Rolls Royce of Isolation Conditioners.  Won't that be a hoot?


"In answer to your interesting question jea48, I did a quick check and nothing is mentioned anywhere on the unit about it being UL Listed. My guess is that the cost and time for listing did not outweighs the number they expected to sell.  Audio Prism felt that the number they would sell was not worth the cost to obtain the status.
But that is just conjecture on my part.

Technically it does not have to be safety tested, and Listed, by UL. It could be safety tested and Listed by any recognized third party testing Laboratory. Question is, what was the manufacture's intended market for the unit to be used in when submitting the unit for safety testing? Was it stated for home consumer use?
Also there is the possibility the unit was not safety tested by any recognized third party Lab, as you stated in your post.

If you do not own a multi meter I would suggest you buy one. You should check each of the 4 separately derived Isolated Power systems on a regular basis to make sure both Hot power lines, legs, of each AC power system is floating above ground. If for any reason one of the two hot power lines, of any of the 4 AC power systems, were to go to ground you would not know it happened. (That is unless each of the 4 Isolated AC Power Systems has a line monitor that monitors both lines and alerts the user with some kind of warning, either by and indicating light or audible sound or both. Or the monitor shuts down the affected power supply.)  Other wise the affected power supply would continue to supply AC power to its' connected load. It could be the hot line that is connected to the neutral terminal on a receptacle, OR it could be the hot line that is connected to the Hot side terminal of the receptacle. The ground fault could occur inside the unit, in the power cord plugged into the outlet, or inside the piece of audio equipment the AC power supply is feeding.
« Last Edit: 17 Jul 2017, 10:56 am by jea48 »

Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #21 on: 17 Jul 2017, 12:58 pm »
So Speedskater, you are suggesting that the unit might have a "bootleg ground"?
No, the opposite! That's correct operation for a portable I.T.

Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #22 on: 17 Jul 2017, 01:07 pm »
Links to Bill Whitlock papers:

Generic Student Seminar Handout AN007
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/login
"UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, & ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS IN AUDIO & VIDEO SYSTEMS"

2012 Seminar
"An Overview of Audio System Grounding & Interfacing"
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #23 on: 17 Jul 2017, 02:43 pm »
Links to Bill Whitlock papers:

Generic Student Seminar Handout AN007
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/login
"UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, & ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS IN AUDIO & VIDEO SYSTEMS"

2012 Seminar
"An Overview of Audio System Grounding & Interfacing"
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

Thanks for the links. I was already quite familiar with this one. Which I credit you with posting it a few years back. 

2012 Seminar
"An Overview of Audio System Grounding & Interfacing"

https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

Though I had forgotten seeing the picture/diagram you furnished in an earlier post. I found it on page 200, with a few comments given by Bill.


This link also provides good info.
http://www.middleatlantic.com/resources/white-papers.aspx

"Power Distribution and Grounding of Audio, Video and Telecommunications Equipment White Paper"


 

 

Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #24 on: 17 Jul 2017, 03:38 pm »
In the Spring, there was another similar thread, in another forum that had a Bill Whitlock schematic of the two ways the Safety Ground may be connected to an I.T.
But I can't find the thread or the Bill Whitlock paper.

Sandrock

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #25 on: 17 Jul 2017, 10:40 pm »
Hello everyone,
You all have raised some good points and they are worth thinking about.
In my original question I asked if anyone could do the same test a I did with an "outlet tester" plugged into their line conditioner and report back their findings.

Should they come to the same findings as I did with their own outlet tester and power-line conditioner it would substantiate Elizabeth's comment    "I think the device is just not built right to test power conditioners with complex innards."   
Especially given both Speedskater and jes48's informative scientific posts regarding the subject.

I just wish we could get 'real-world' physical proof of the same findings as I got.
Please, is there anyone who would like to volunteer to do the quick test on behalf of the group?

Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #26 on: 17 Jul 2017, 10:46 pm »
Remember that this unusual 3 LED tester result only applies to units that have a:
'Portable, corded isolation transformer'.

All other units should have the correct LED's lite.

Sandrock

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #27 on: 17 Jul 2017, 10:58 pm »
True, however I am most interested in the results of power-line conditioner like I have.

jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #28 on: 18 Jul 2017, 12:20 am »
Here are 3 wiring diagrams for Bryston Power Conditioners.
Note all 3 are Grounded Power Systems. One leg of the isolation transformer is intentionally connected to ground.
The plug in polarity/ground circuit tester will indicate 'Correct'

http://bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/BIT_RM_15_(PA-10768-00)_SCHEMATIC.pdf

http://bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/BIT_RM_20_(PA-9131-00)_SCHEMATIC.pdf

http://bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/BIT_RM_20_BAL_SCHEMATIC.pdf

jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #29 on: 18 Jul 2017, 04:34 pm »
Hello everyone,
You all have raised some good points and they are worth thinking about.
In my original question I asked if anyone could do the same test a I did with an "outlet tester" plugged into their line conditioner and report back their findings.

Should they come to the same findings as I did with their own outlet tester and power-line conditioner it would substantiate Elizabeth's comment    "I think the device is just not built right to test power conditioners with complex innards."   
Especially given both Speedskater and jes48's informative scientific posts regarding the subject.

I just wish we could get 'real-world' physical proof of the same findings as I got.
Please, is there anyone who would like to volunteer to do the quick test on behalf of the group?

Kind of late to be asking the question, this far into thread now, but did you plug the polarity/ground circuit tester in at least a couple 3 prong grounded wall outlets in your home to make sure the device works properly? It indicated Correct?

As for proof with the unit you have any electronic tech, or electrician, could pull the top cover of the unit and see if the unit is truly wired as an Isolated AC Power System.
There in the secondary outputs of the 4 separately derived iso transformers are floating above ground.

There should be a consumer rights law here in the US that makes the manufacture install a label on the back panel of the unit,
 
WARNING: ISOLATED AC POWER SYSTEM.
Output floating above ground.
 For use by qualified personnel only.
     

Sandrock

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #30 on: 18 Jul 2017, 04:49 pm »
Hello Jea48, its sometimes funny that in our hast to get to the answer of the question we bypass the most obvious such as switching the unit on or something as simple as just plugging the equipment into the wall socket, right?
Well I wanted to make sure that before I posted I had all my ducks lined up so not only did I do as you suggested but just on the off chance that my older primary tester was defective I purchased a new tester ( the one in the picture) to double check first with both of them. Plus I went around the house checking most of the outlets, just to make sure everything was on the up and up so to speak and was in correct working condition. I found no problems. I am not sure it is possible to discern your answer from a picture I took last month of the unit I have with the cover off. Check it out and see if you can tell.
Cheers


Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #31 on: 18 Jul 2017, 04:55 pm »
It would take a high resolution camera and studio lighting to puzzle out the wiring.

Sandrock

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #32 on: 18 Jul 2017, 04:59 pm »
Yeah, I also noticed that same issue too. I will see what I can do but as you can fully understand its a real chore to unplug and get the unit out. But never the less I will do my best. So lets see what happens.
Cheers

jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #33 on: 18 Jul 2017, 05:45 pm »
Yeah, I also noticed that same issue too. I will see what I can do but as you can fully understand its a real chore to unplug and get the unit out. But never the less I will do my best. So lets see what happens.
Cheers

I would have to have the thing setting in front of me to quickly trace, follow, the two secondary leads from the transformers to the output receptacle outlets.

If you have a multi meter, as I stated in an earlier post, you can verify 100% the output of each transformer is left floating above ground.

Did you buy the unit new?
If so contact the dealer and ask him what he knows about the unit. If he tells you he doesn't know anything about it ask him if there is a tech support contact, for the unit, you can ask.
They may provide a wiring diagram of the unit. There is nothing top secrete under the top cover of the unit.   

jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #34 on: 19 Jul 2017, 02:00 pm »
It would take a high resolution camera and studio lighting to puzzle out the wiring.

It would help. I was able to see a better, brighter, picture on my cell phone than my PC monitor.

I can see the equipment ground for each receptacle outlet is an individual green grounding conductor that connects from each receptacle to a common ground stud on the metal chassis. (Lower left of the picture)

I see what appears to be a DPDT rocker switch that is configured, wired, for the "phase" reversal option for each output receptacle.

On the back of each receptacle there appears to be something wired to the receptacles that are shaped something like two resistors. The picture is not good enough. A closeup picture with better light of only one receptacle, the "phase" reversal rocker switch, and the AC filter (side closest to the receptacle) all in one picture would help.

The only thing that separates this Separately Derived iso 4 transformer power conditioner from being an Isolated AC Power System from a Grounded AC Power System is a bonding jumper wire from the neutral terminal on each receptacle outlet to the equipment grounding terminal on each outlet. Simplest way, without changing the existing wiring in the unit, to a Grounded AC Power system.

Do you see a problem with what I propose?
Does it change in any way how the AC noise filters, on the secondaries of the transformers function? (Of course if it does, the same would happen in the event of a Hot to chassis ground fault on a Hot Line, leg, to ground in a piece of connected equipment. It would have the same result.   

Next question, and the one the people that design and target floating AC iso power systems to be sold to the unknowing retail consumer to power home audio equipment, does it really improve the SQ of an audio system over a properly iso grounded AC power system?
Apparently Brytson doesn't think so.
http://bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/BIT_RM_20_(PA-9131-00)_SCHEMATIC.pdf

Your thoughts please.
   

Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #35 on: 19 Jul 2017, 02:50 pm »
Well it's not a 'Separately Derived System'. In fact it's not a system at all, it's a portable, corded 'point of use' isolation transformer. If you ground the Neutrals, you will have to eliminate to polarity rocker switches.

jea48

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #36 on: 19 Jul 2017, 03:52 pm »
Well it's not a 'Separately Derived System'. In fact it's not a system at all, it's a portable, corded 'point of use' isolation transformer. If you ground the Neutrals, you will have to eliminate to polarity rocker switches.

Quote
Well it's not a 'Separately Derived System
Your definition of a separately derived power system?
Is the secondary of the isolation transformer electrically connected to the primary? Does the secondary output of an isolation transformer have any electrical reference to the source feeding the transformer when the secondary is left floating above ground? (Yes I understand without the feed energized power source there is not an output power source.)     

Quote
If you ground the Neutrals, you will have to eliminate to polarity rocker switches.
Why? The switch/s reverses the polarity of the secondary winding power as fed to the receptacle. The proper HOT and Neutral orientation polarity at the receptacle is not changed. The switch just flips the two ungrounded 120Vac secondary leads that feed the receptacle. Correct? That is why the neutral would be bonded to ground at the receptacle after the reversal switch.

Note:
As for the "phase" reversal switch.... I really don't see any useful need/reason why it was incorporated in the design of the unit. All the builder of the unit had to do was make sure all of the outputs at the receptacle outlets were all in phase with one another.

Speedskater

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #37 on: 19 Jul 2017, 04:00 pm »
Now those are two good questions! I'll have to think about them a lot.

Sandrock

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #38 on: 19 Jul 2017, 04:08 pm »
Hello everyone, this morning my plan is to unhook the T4, open it up and shoot some well lighted close ups to share.
Give me about 90 minutes or so......
Cheers
Ian

Sandrock

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Re: Outlet Tester, Have you checked your Power-line conditioner?
« Reply #39 on: 19 Jul 2017, 05:39 pm »
Back at the keyboard and in 72 minutes, well under my 90 min quote....Ha!
Anyway I have a bunch of pictures of the guts of the T4 which I hope will shed some light on this vexing question.
They are in no perticular order and a few of them might be overlapping info-wise.