AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Low Wattage Systems => Topic started by: OzarkTom on 18 Jul 2012, 04:00 am
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I have been in this hobby for 40 years now. I sold high-end audio back in the 80's and 90's. I have been fotunate listen and own many a great valued audio products over the years. Dynaco ST-70, Pas 3X, Acoustat X's with DD servo amps, Quad 57's, Rogers LS 3/5A, Musical Fidelity A1, David Berning EA 230, and a few more. Now you can easily add the Jan Plummer's TBI Millinia amp to this list.
Here is a modern day giant killer amp like the Musical Fidelity was 25+ years ago. It is actually an integrated, so amp-preamp combo's in the $5-10K should be worried about this little integated amp.
The power output with 8AA batteies is about 10WPC, so a 12V external battey should put out about 15-18WPC. The AC power supply or 24V battery system will put out 32WPC. I hope that does not disqualify this amp in the low wattage systems. The Millenia retails for $500. But I thought it would be an insult to include this amp in the Cheap and Cheerful circle, it is way above that.
I have owned and sold many SET's, OTL's, Class A's, Tri-paths over the last 40 years, Rex has too, and heard many more including Class D. I have never liked Class D amps before, but this one is fantastic. Oh my gosh, did I say that? But according to this review from Positive Feedback two weeks ago, the TBI is actually Class BD topology, so says Jan Plummer and does not have the switching problems that Class D amps have.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/millenia.htm
If you read carefully Positive Feedback's review, this amp is at the top of the heap in the Cheap and Cheerful area, so says the reviewer. But I feel they made a mistake by not using the 24V battery system like I am. If he had, this TBI would have matched or beat his SET set-up. The 24V battey system will sound about 40% better than the AC power supply, probably 15 % better than a 12V.
A close fiend, Rex has one also, and he did a Cardas speaker binding post mod that improved the sound by another 30%. He modded mine and darn if he wasn't right. He still has not the nerve to mod the RCA connectors yet, and that should get even a further improvement. I emailed TBI, and Jan Plummer encourages DIY'ers to modify his Millenia amp. Other mods we have done is to use the AMR fuse that sells for $20. That makes about a 3-5% improvement depending on your system. And another 10% improvement came with using the drum gel pads underneath the amp. Sweetwater Sound has these for $6.99 shipped, well worth the money. I wrote Jan about by-passing the volume control, but he warned against that. Jan said that volume set at max will eliminate the volume control by 99%. You can run this as a straight amp feeding from Dac/preamp, that is how I used it. Thick speaker wires can make the amp top heavy, so Rex said he turned his amp upside down and reversed his IC's.
So what does this amp sound like? Like a JCOTLSETCLASSAPASS amp.
What?
Now I won't bore you with these details, but the TBI has the quickness of the best OTL's and Class A's, it has the transparency and detail of the best SET and Class A amps, is has the speed and quickness of the best OTL's and Class A's, it has the smoothness and aliveness of the best Set and OTL amps, it plays vocals like the best SET and OTL's, and it images like the best OTL and SET amps. That is why I call this the JCOTLSETCLASSAPASS amp. If John Curl or Nelson Pass came out with a tube amp, this is what it would sound like. I would love to be Nelson Pass's neighbor and take this wee tiny TBI amp and put it on his monster horns. Even Pass would be surprised.
One thing the TBI out-shines all of these other amps on is holographic imaging. I would say that with the noise floor being so low with batteies and the extra detail that it has, holographic imaging is out of this world.
If several instruments are playing in the background, this amp will separate them and pinpoint every one. If there is someone in the background barely shuffling their feet or snapping their fingers, you will hear it. If the singer is grunting or smacking their lips, you will hear it. When horn players take a deep breath, it will jump out at you with great clarity. For the first time in my life, I feel I have left my 2-channel stereo system from my living room and now actually sitting with the recording engineer in the recording studio. This is unbelievable.
Yes, you get all that without ever losing the aliveness and magic of the best tube amps in the world. Compared to any conventional tube amp with output tansformers, the TBI makes them sound very veiled. Basically, you have the sound of three of the best amps sitting in a wee tiny box. I wonder how Jan Plummer of TBI pulled that one off? And where are those tubes? If your OTL's or SET amps run to hot for you during the summer, substitute this amp instead. You won't miss a lick.
For those that have to make a statement with your audio buddies, just hide this amp behind your monster expensive one, no one will ever know. If you don't have one to hide this behind, just buy one of those 100 pound Krell KSA amps. I have seen several selling on Ebay and Audiogon for about $1500, get this TBI Millenia for $500, and for $2000 you have the best sounding Krell KSA amp in the world. When your friends ask you how you did it, just tell them you made a wee tiny mod to make the Krell sound so good. Me? I have mine proudly sitting on top of my $9K Set amp.
The speakers that Rex and I have tried this amp on is the following. Anthony Gallo Classico 3 and 4's, Gallo Strada's, Tonian TL-D1's, and Rethm Trishna's. The Classico 3 and 4's will go down to a 4 ohm load, but they have no crossovers. The 3's are 88db efficiency, the TBI plays them loud enough for me. But I would never run this amp with Magnepans or Acoustats, too in-efficient and complicated load.
One negative that I have to report. This amp is so addictive. I have to turn my system on every day just to make sure I have not lost the magic, which I never do. With batteies, I never hear that electronic glare that I hear with AC power supplies. And with so much detail, you will have to re-listen to every one of your songs. You will be amazed at what you have missed.
And there you have it. The modern day best value amp of today. This TBI integrated amp clearly deserves to be a classic 25 years from now. If nothing else, buy one for your wife or kid and when they are out of the house, just slip this in your reference system. Then you will have to buy a second one.
Music
Blues, jazz, pop, rock, easy listening.
Boz Scaggs
Diana Krall
Cat Stevens
Eagles
Judith Owens
Norah Jones
Frank Sinatra
Julie London
Freddy Cole
Mariah Carey
Donald Fagan
Steeley Dan
Melody Gardot
list goes on and on
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Well, I am from Missouri, the Show-me state. I am sure most of you feel the same way. Would anybody here be interested in a tour with my TBI amp?
PM if interested, I might send it on a tour. But no matter how good this amp sounds in your system, this amp is mine.
FYI, I will send a 24V battery system so you can compare the AC power supply to the battery. The amp is so efficient, it takes a lot of hours before the battery needs charging, about 15-20.
The Dirty Dozen tour is set!
Occam (NY)
Freo-1 (Ma)
mytubes211 (NJ)
Ispec2 (Pa)
rklein (Oh)
rodge827 (NJ)
Gopher (NY)
roscoeiii (Il)
Rclark (Wa)
trackball02 (Ca)
morganc (Ca)
DaveC113 (Co)
srclose (Ok)
poseidonsvoice (NC)
Blackmore(Mo)
ebag4 (Ky)
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Thanks so much for the heads up. I've visiting the TBI site several times over the years, starting with their amazing small/fast/placement flexible subs, then being intrigued by their tiny single driver speakers (with incredible specified bass range based on "Embedded Transmission Line" technology), and finally had looked at the MG3 before there were any reviews.
Where do you find info on modding the MG-3?
There is also a "OFR-1" (switching power supply resevoir and ripple filter) option for the MG-3 (you can find it at the bottom of the TBI MG-3 page) that should provide at least some battery advantages without the hassle. Here's the link to it: http://www.tbisound.com/_pdf/UPFAwp.pdf
I'd love to be able to compare the MG-3 to the NuForce DDA-100 (soon to be released 50 wpc/DAC - all digital with list price of $550).
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32 WPC is a little over the recommended max for this circle, but since it can put out less with the battery power supply, we are good with this thread. ;)
Looks very promising. The battery power supply makes a lot of sense for this type of amp. 8)
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I would love to put this battery powered new technology against my battery powered Two :thumb:
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Could you post some details about the 24 V battery pack?
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In fact, I probably don't even need your battery pack, just the amp I would think.
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Could you post some details about the 24 V battery pack?
I am using a Dodd battery pack, but all it is, is 2-12v scooter batteries tied together and hooked up in series. The power cord can even be reversed in polarity and it will not hurt this amp. A 24V smart charger is used to charge the battery. I have found out the hard way, unhook the charger before you turn the amp on. The charger puts out more than 24v and will blow out the 4 amp fuse inside the amp.
This amp is almost bullet-proof. The company took a lot of strides in using the highest protection methods that they could.
On Amazon, here is the best deal on 2-12V batteries for $15.92.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007PT865A/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=A24WV2YRRJEBAG
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You should definitely make a "tour" thread :thumb:
Best forum ever.
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Here is a part's list on a couple of the mods.
RTOM Moongel Drum Damper Pad-$6.99
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Moongel
Cardas CCGR S speaker binding posts-about $75 shipped
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&pagestring2=Binding Posts&pagestring=Binding Posts+(closeup)&content_id=11&part_id=80
AMR 3.15 Euro fuse-$20
This is a sloblo fuse. It replaces the 4 amp fast blow. Jan said to use the smaller rated fuse when using a sloblo.
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Tom
That makes you an official reviewer now ... super nice job!
Need to try this one!
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Can i register for this tour???
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That's some review.... :o
..............should be an interesting tour. :thumb:
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That's some review.... :o
..............should be an interesting tour. :thumb:
I know!
The review probably sounds like I have over-hyped this amp, but after living with it now for over 6 months, I am still getting the same fantastic results. I have been a tube lover for over 30 years, I am now not missing that at all.
My audio buddy Rex feels the same way. Rex bought a pair of NYAL Futterman OTL's from me 30 years ago, and he has mainly used tubes ever since. Rex cannot believe how an amp can put out so much detail, yet sound so magical.
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We will stop this first tour at a dozen and call it the Dirty Dozen tour. If there is more interest, we might have a second tour.
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Thank you Tom :D
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It's good to see TBI get some audiophile love.
I have used TBI subs and satellites for years and have always thought they were fantastic,
I live in the Atlanta area and have dropped in on Jan from time to time. He is a little cryptic about his speaker designs but all I know is that they sound very clear with low distortion.
The subs are unlike any subs I have experienced. They absolutely disappear and integrate with a system perfectly. When I first started using them, I was disappointed because I thought they weren't powerful enough and they don't pressurize a room like other subs do. But after some AB'ing, I realized that the individual instruments would just disappear when I turned them off. The double bass would just come and go.
While visiting Jan one afternoon, he talked me into buying some Majestic Diamonds, which are the satellite speakers. They are fantastic. Midrange is really sweet and the bass is just amazing for their size. I think there is some sort of miniature spiral horn structure with a small front port. For me anyway, they are the perfect near field office speaker.
I would love to hear what other people think of them.
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Tom
That makes you an official reviewer now ... super nice job!
Need to try this one!
But not a great reviewer. I forgot to rate three of the most important tests of an amp. So here goes.
goose bump test- 9.95
foot tapping test- 9.95
body swaying test- 9.95
I would have rated these tests a solid 10, but I always feel there is room for more.
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We need
three two ZERO more victims. :o
I was thinkuing today, if everyone agrees, to all ship the amp on a Monday to the next person. If you are close enough the last tester, you should get the amp by Tuesday or Wednesday. That will leave everyone the opportunity to have the amp for a weekend. I know that I work for a living, so the best time to listen is on a weekend.
I am starting with Occam as the first one, but the order will change depending on where you live. We are starting East, and go west. That will save a lot of time in shipping, and some money too. Shipping should be about $18 or less.
For those on the tour, this amp is great for comparing other equipment that you own. If you have more than one speaker cable, power cable, IC's, or even a DAC or turntable cartridge, this amp well tell you the differences fairly easily. It might help you make your mind up on which item to get rid of.
For those that have not PM'ed me their address, please do so now.
Thanks guys!
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I was thinkuing today, if everyone agrees, to all ship the amp on a Monday to the next person. If you are close enough the last tester, you should get the amp by Tuesday or Wednesday. That will leave everyone the opportunity to have the amp for a weekend. I know that I work for a living, so the best time to listen is on a weekend.
Tom,
That's a great idea...plenty of time to set it up and for a good listen. :thumb:
With whom are you shipping?
Anyone who didn't make the tour or even if you did, and want to here it in a different system, I'm in S.Jersey 08087. Send me a PM and we can set something up when I have the amp.
Chris
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This will be a lot of fun, hearing these and the Ncores within short span of time between.
My Two.2 is 57 watts on my modded mmg's and I get good solid power to 90db range. This TBI should be good for similar performance.
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The line-up looks great. There are some heavy hitters here in the amp department, so the TBI should get taxed to the max. Many different speakers are represented including Gedlee's, Zu Def's, Maggies, and Super V's. I was hoping someone had a set of Quads. Oh well, maybe next time.
I will try and get this show on the road next week, I am still waiting on a few addresses. Remember, ship on a Monday so everyone will have a full weekend to play. Throw your best at this amp, you might even try it as an integrated VS. amp-preamp combo using your preamp.
I will re-oganize the order this weekend so you know what order you are in. Happy Listening. :thumb:
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The Dirty Dozen +2 official tour order
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Have a set of recently o/hauled Quad 57s mounted on Levinson stands but be forwarned they do very low ohm swings. Also have Tannoy SGM3000 and an Altec A-5 run by a Yamamoto A-08S 2 watter. Should be interesting. Am new here on AC and live in Hawaii, so hoping only at this point. Ron
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(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/rbb-65b.jpg)
:icon_twisted:
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Shipping address, system specifications sent to Tom (check PM).
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Great news guys. Paul(Occam), pm'ed me his address today so we can get this show on the road next week.
More good news. My ultra expensive NOS tubes came in today, so I will get them installed in the TBI this weekend. :o
I want to make sure the TBI is running at it's best. There are definitely some heavy hitters coming up to bat.
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This sounds like a nice piece. Keep us posted guys!!! Thanks
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Another good review to read, for those waiting on the amp tour, is this one from TNT audio. Now keep in mind, the reviewer was just using a stock amp without batteries. This reviewer also reported suprising grunts from a vocalist on a certain song with this amp.
This is the review that first grabbed my attention on the TBI amp. I am very skeptical of audio reviews, but for $500, I thought I would try one.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html
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Another good review to read, for those waiting on the amp tour, is this one from TNT audio. Now keep in mind, the reviewer was just using a stock amp without batteries. This reviewer also reported suprising grunts from a vocalist on a certain song with this amp.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html
OzarkTom, reviewer did not hear any grunts--"providing grunt" (the text in the review) means "performing the job or task" or "carrying the load", like a grunt soldier doing all the work at the battle front. The expression is used in the English version, the Italian version of the review makes no reference whatsoever to hearing "grunts" or "providing grunt."
Cheers,
munosmario
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OzarkTom, reviewer did not hear any grunts--"providing grunt" (the text in the review) means "performing the job or task" or "carrying the load", like a grunt soldier doing all the work at the battle front. The expression is used in the English version, the Italian version of the review makes no reference whatsoever to hearing "grunts" or "providing grunt."
Cheers,
munosmario
I might have misinterpreted that, but when you hear this TBI amp in your system, you will hear grunts and groans and fingers snapping and feet shuffling and whispering that you have never heard before. And as the song tapers off at the end, you will notice more info than you have ever heard before.
On Boz Scaggs, Speak Low album, you actually hear Boz's jaw clicking while he sings. I have never heard that before this amp came along.
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I might have misinterpreted that, but when you hear this TBI amp in your system, you will hear grunts and groans and fingers snapping and feet shuffling and whispering that you have never heard before. And as the song tapers off at the end, you will notice more info than you have ever heard before.
On Boz Scaggs, Speak Low album, you actually hear Boz's jaw clicking while he sings. I have never heard that before this amp came along.
I have owned one for about six months "performing grunt"--very satisfactorily-- at my desk top system in my office :lol:. Regarding hearing things that I never heard before, I am not so sure about it, my main and secondary audio systems are both top of the line high-end, high-resolution set ups (the difference being high an low efficiency speakers)...now, regarding that "jaw clicking," I have no reason to doubt your enthusiasm...that would really be a first time for me and I am looking forward to replicate the experience in the immediate future. :thumb:
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I have owned one for about six months "performing grunt"--very satisfactorily-- at my desk top system in my office :lol:. Regarding hearing things that I never heard before, I am not so sure about it, my main and secondary audio systems are both top of the line high-end, high-resolution set ups (the difference being high an low efficiency speakers)...now, regarding that "jaw clicking," I have no reason to doubt your enthusiasm...that would really be a first time for me and I am looking forward to replicate the experience in the immediate future. :thumb:
Have you tried it on battery yet? Also try those mods I wrote down.
Stock, the amp is good, modded and battery power, the amp is great.
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The little guy is packed up and shipping to Paul tomorrow, he should get the amp on Monday or Tuesday. The battery has a full charge, so Paul, don't worry about that.
I figure that there should be a few rules here, so here goes.
1)Remember, this amp is mine.
2) always ship on Monday so that everyone gets to have it over a weekend.
3) Be sure not to play the amp with the battery charger hooked up. That sends out 25V and will blow the fuse in the amp. I have found that once it is tuned on with the battery, the amp will sound it's best in 20 minutes or less. No need to leave the amp on 24 hours a day. You might want to charge up the battery the first day you receive it, that would be a good time to hear what the amp sounds on AC power.
3) Brutally honest reviews are welcome here. In fact, do not sugarcoat your reviews for me or anyone else. There are no hardcore TBI fanatics here to ruin your comments.
4) If your amp beats the TBI, comment on how much yours beat it by? 10%, 20%, 50%? I am all ears. I will go get one one of yours ASAP, unless it costs over $15K.
5) I am sure that many here has an amp that will beat this one in the bass department, so how about in detail, imaging, transparency and goosebump factor? Also play some of your bad recordings, you might get surprised.
6) If you ever feel that this is your waste of time, pm me and I will replace you ASAP. I have some extra victims recruits waiting on the sidelines.
I want to thank all of the Dirty Dozen very much for signing up for the tour. Let the games begin. :thumb:
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Hi OzarkTom,
I have quite a few questions about the TBI Millenia MG3
How long did it take to break in and what changes did you observe during break in?
What batteries and what battery charger are you using for your 24V battery supply?
What differences do you hear with the battery vs the AC supply?
What differences are there between 12V battery and 24V battery?
What improvements did the Cardas binding posts make?
Have you encountered any problems with clipping?
Regards,
wcvb
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Great news guys. Paul(Occam), pm'ed me his address today so we can get this show on the road next week.
More good news. My ultra expensive NOS tubes came in today, so I will get them installed in the TBI this weekend. :o
I want to make sure the TBI is running at it's best. There are definitely some heavy hitters coming up to bat.
Tubes :scratch:
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Tubes :scratch:
He was just having a little fun.
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He was just having a little fun.
Aw, shucks, you blew my cover.
Well, it sounds like tubes are in it. :D
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Aw, shucks, you blew my cover.
Well, it sounds like tubes are in it. :D
Hilarious.. I love it! :dance:
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Hi OzarkTom,
I have quite a few questions about the TBI Millenia MG3
How long did it take to break in and what changes did you observe during break in?
What batteries and what battery charger are you using for your 24V battery supply?
What differences do you hear with the battery vs the AC supply?
What differences are there between 12V battery and 24V battery?
What improvements did the Cardas binding posts make?
Have you encountered any problems with clipping?
Regards,
wcvb
The amp takes about 100 hours to fully break in. The amp never sounds harsh, but it will open up as it beaks in.
I have two SLA 12v scooter batteries hooked in series for 24V and a 24V smart charger. I forget the brand.
With the battery, the noise floor drops and you hear more detail. This results in more tranpaency, more depth, and a bigger soundstage. Small background details are also more noticeable.
The 24V is going to give you 32 watts per channel, the 12 V will probably give you about half of that.
Cardas posts improved the amp by about 30% fom top to bottom. It also added more magic with a bigger soundstage.
I have never heard it clip, even when I had the 88db Classico 3's here. But I never play my system much past the 95-98db levels. I don't want to lose my hearing.
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The amp takes about 100 hours to fully break in. The amp never sounds harsh, but it will open up as it beaks in.
I have two SLA 12v scooter batteries hooked in series for 24V and a 24V smart charger. I forget the brand.
With the battery, the noise floor drops and you hear more detail. This results in more tranpaency, more depth, and a bigger soundstage. Small background details are also more noticeable.
The 24V is going to give you 32 watts per channel, the 12 V will probably give you about half of that.
Cardas posts improved the amp by about 30% fom top to bottom. It also added more magic with a bigger soundstage.
I have never heard it clip, even when I had the 88db Classico 3's here. But I never play my system much past the 95-98db levels. I don't want to lose my hearing.
Do you have a capacitor bank across the batteries? I have a Trends T-amp that I used to use with a 12v Optima yellow top SLA battery. If you put a 25V+ electrolytic (large) and some film caps (at least ~1 uF, more is better) in parallel between the + and - battery terminals it will make an improvement. Later I changed to a surplus oversize linear PS, you'd have a hard time telling it from the battery.
Also, there was an electrolytic PS storage cap inside my t-amp, and replacing it with a low ESR black gate (when they were available) made a big difference too. If you want best results I think a large (expensive) film cap as the last cap in the PS is probably the way to go.
I found my t-amp is more reactive than my SET amp to changes in source and cabling, but there's no amount of mods that will make it sound as good as my SET amp. I have heard class D amps that sound impressive but never with a sound I could live with long term, but I am open to the possibility... should be interesting to see how people like it.
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No, I have never tried a capacitor bank. I am not a big DIY'er I am afraid. Just all thumbs.
I have a SET amp and two tripath amps here. The tipaths sound veiled compared to the SET and this TBI amp.
One note that I forgot to mention, you can get 20% more power by using two amps as mono. But that will double the price. I have never tried that, it would be interesting if the soundstage opened up even more.
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No, I have never tried a capacitor bank. I am not a big DIY'er I am afraid. Just all thumbs.
That's ok, all you do is connect the + and - leads of the caps to the respective battery terminals. Film caps have no polarity. It makes a pretty big difference, the output impedance of a battery is higher and there is more noise vs. a good linear PS, so without the cap bank you're better off with a well filtered linear PS. Those new LiFePo-whatever batteries are probably much better (and smaller) than SLA as well...
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Do you have a capacitor bank across the batteries? I have a Trends T-amp that I used to use with a 12v Optima yellow top SLA battery. If you put a 25V+ electrolytic (large) and some film caps (at least ~1 uF, more is better) in parallel between the + and - battery terminals it will make an improvement.
Something like this ?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65739)
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Would these wiring items work with the Amazon batteries and a 24 volt xlr scooter charger?
Harness:
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/ba24vowihaki.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/ba24vowihaki.html)
Port:
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xlrcooffboch.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xlrcooffboch.html)
Jeff
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Would these wiring items work with the Amazon batteries and a 24 volt xlr scooter charger?
Harness:
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/ba24vowihaki.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/ba24vowihaki.html)
Port:
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xlrcooffboch.html (http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xlrcooffboch.html)
Jeff
That should work fine. And they also have the 24V battery charger for $29.99.
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24vo40ampxlr1.html
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Something like this ?
No, mine is much dirtier.... :wink:
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The tracking number shows that the TBI amp will arrive at Paul's house tomorrow.
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Check out this LiFePO4 motorcycle battery, it's more $ than SLA but can handle 5x the number of charging cycles. I didn't see internal resistance specs, but from what I've researched this kind of battery should be lower noise and resistance vs an SLA and will likely be a decent improvement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_resistance
http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-26650-Motorcycle-Battery-12V-6Ah-72Wh-140A-rate-in-Aluminum-Box.aspx
The link below has a graph of a gel cell resistance vs. state of charge, you can see it varies from 8 mOhms to 15 mOhms depending on it's charge. Li-ion is under 4 mOhm in the graph they shown of talk time on a cell... LiFePO4 should be even lower.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_does_internal_resistance_affect_performance
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Here is a 24V Lithium that I almost bought, and it includes the charger.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Power-Battery-Pack--BX2488/dp/B0064BM0Q6/ref=sr_1_14?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1343603926&sr=1-14&keywords=24v+lithium+battery
And the specs on this battery looks incredible, but it is $359.
http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/specs/LifePO4/K2B24V10EB/K2B24V10EB.pdf
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Here is a 24V Lithium that I almost bought, and it includes the charger.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Power-Battery-Pack--BX2488/dp/B0064BM0Q6/ref=sr_1_14?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1343603926&sr=1-14&keywords=24v+lithium+battery
And the specs on this battery looks incredible, but it is $359.
http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/specs/LifePO4/K2B24V10EB/K2B24V10EB.pdf
Looks like the top one has a lot of capacity, it's a bigger battery than you need... also, it looks like it would need a voltage regulator as the voltage varies a lot between charge states. Even 2 motorcycle batteries are overkill, but you won't need to recharge as often... The battery I linked to can be charged with a SLA smart charger, which you probably already have.
The bottom battery would be great, but is also pretty big and at 25.6 V would need voltage regulation or maybe just a simple voltage divider...
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If everything go as planned I have ready modified RWA Black Lightning running at 12V.
Cheers Ritchie
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If everything go as planned I have ready modified RWA Black Lightning running at 12V.
Cheers Ritchie
It would be interesting to compare an optimized battery supply like the RWA to a regular battery, I bet the RWA unit will be a significant upgrade. You could just pull your car up to the amp and get the jumper cables out... :icon_twisted:
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It would be interesting to compare an optimized battery supply like the RWA to a regular battery, I bet the RWA unit will be a significant upgrade. You could just pull your car up to the amp and get the jumper cables out... :icon_twisted:
:o
If this amp improves with a better battery supply, look out.
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older review comparing w/ 2 other amps:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html)
already done i see. whoopsie.
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Any chance there is room for one more on this tour? I am curious how this digital amp would do with my Zu Def 2 speakers which might be an ideal pairing for its power range.
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I will try.
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Pretty psyched to hear this with all the mods on it... I have my monitors and sub set up now in the living room (have ordered an Emotiva Mini-X amp to put on that setup for now, eventually it will be a surround amp, but it's an 80 watt stereo version of the XPA's). So I will have two sets of speakers, 4 and 8 ohm to try this on.
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I am using a Dodd battery pack, but all it is, is 2-12v scooter batteries tied together and hooked up in series. The power cord can even be reversed in polarity and it will not hurt this amp. A 24V smart charger is used to charge the battery. I have found out the hard way, unhook the charger before you turn the amp on. The charger puts out more than 24v and will blow out the 4 amp fuse inside the amp.
This amp is almost bullet-proof. The company took a lot of strides in using the highest protection methods that they could.
On Amazon, here is the best deal on 2-12V batteries for $15.92.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007PT865A/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=A24WV2YRRJEBAG
How many hours of play out of the SLAs before needing to charge?
never mind found the specs tab at the bottom of the product page.
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How many hours of play out of the SLAs before needing to charge?
never mind found the specs tab at the bottom of the product page.
The amp seems to play about 25 hours or so on a charge, it is very efficient.
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The amp seems to play about 25 hours or so on a charge, it is very efficient.
Thanks. I ordered one. Will compare with my CDA254 amp. FYI, the OFR-1 is no longer available.
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The amp takes about 100 hours to fully break in. The amp never sounds harsh, but it will open up as it beaks in.
I have two SLA 12v scooter batteries hooked in series for 24V and a 24V smart charger. I forget the brand.
With the battery, the noise floor drops and you hear more detail. This results in more tranpaency, more depth, and a bigger soundstage. Small background details are also more noticeable.
The 24V is going to give you 32 watts per channel, the 12 V will probably give you about half of that.
Cardas posts improved the amp by about 30% fom top to bottom. It also added more magic with a bigger soundstage.
I have never heard it clip, even when I had the 88db Classico 3's here. But I never play my system much past the 95-98db levels. I don't want to lose my hearing.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm breaking in my Millennia now while I try to figure our what batteries and what capacitors to use.
Need to choose type and capacity of the batteries and the type, capacity and number of the caps.
Even stock, with the AC supply the amp sounds very impressive indeed.
Regards,
wcvb
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My buddy Rex called tonight. He hooked two of the amps up today as monos. Rex said there was another 20-30% improvement in smoothness and even sounded more tubelike.
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So we're waiting for feedback from Occam, correct?
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Yup....
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Yup....
Sorry. Was a passive aggressive nudge. Totally wasted on a new yorker, I know. :)
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Its been an interesting few days. The amp arrived Friday. I set it up, driving the amp directly from my EAR Acute III CD player with the amp powered via the supplied 24 volt battery pack. As the Acute has its own remote volume control, I used it rather than the Millenia's volume control which I turned all the way up to remove it as much as possible from the circuit. I left it on repeat until Sunday afternoon. The battery recharges very quickly.The amp drove my Marten Miles II speakers.
From the last 3 days of listening, I'm very impressed. It really goes quite loud while maintaining composure. But with my tube complement on the EAR, 2 Siemens PCC88s the Germanic clarity of the Siemens, along with my GSII interconnects, gave a more analytic presentation that the TBI needed, resulting in a subjective lack of midrange warmth and density that I prefer. As I didn't have a pair of Amperex or Valvo Dutch produced ECC88/PCC88s to swap for the Siemens, I changed the GS II interconnects for my HE interconnects. The net result was more warmth and the requisite midrange density, but the downside was a slight loss of resolution, as expected of a lesser interconnect. Regardless, the imaging was wonderful, precise, with appropriate depth and height when on the recording. This is not a characteristic I find in many amps, regardless of price. But given the limited power available to my Martens, it couldn't produce the size and solidity of soundstage available from a similar quality amp with substantially more power.
While the bass extension and control was good, the limited power couldn't offer the control of either my Aksa Lifeforce or Ncore 400.
The amp acquitted itself quite well on tambourine and bells, which IMO, is very difficult. I think the supplied punched metal RCA female chassis connectors are a limiting factor and might be responsible for the grain I heard in the treble, so I think it needs an upgrade like the one Tom did on the binding posts. Dunno, but while this might be called 'polishing a turd' by the cynical, one really can't get top notch performance with compromised connections. [nevertheless, as configured, the system had sufficient resolution to verify the differences I'd previously heard among LS cable connectors, WBT vs Furutech vs DH Lab vs etc.... And that does speak quite well for the amp.]
As I've mentioned previously, its been more than 2 months of playing slap and tickle with my Ncores to get it to the point where it bears comparison to my beloved Aksa Lifeforce. After a progression of changing signal and speaker internal wiring, realizing I had to leave the Ncores on all the time (at least 6 hours), I finally changed the internal ac wiring on the supplied wiring harness to my own cable and am close to satisfied. Also, both of the wall powered amps sit on brass cones on a mdf shelf, which couple to my rack via upward facing points. I demoed the TBI with it sitting on a wood floor decoupled with the 2 supplied little drum dampening squishy pads. Heck, there isn't any component, cable, or cord in my system, that doesn't cost substantially more than this charming amp.
Do I consider the amp a giant killer? Not really, I doesn't 'kill' my Ncores, which in turn, didn't 'kill' my Aksa Lifeforce. [ I'll also add that I'm not familiar with similar products from Virtue or RWA ] But for $500 plus the cost of batteries and charger, along with connector upgrades, its a mighty fine amp. Driving near-field a pair of LS3/5a s, the worlds greatest and most pleasurable headphones, it could be glorious. It might work wonderfully driving more efficient speakers, or powering a satellite / powered sub-woofer system. YMMV
FWIW,
Paul
my system -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=771
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seems like pretty high praise, other than the limited power output. A lot of tripath amps (Virtue) put out more power, some I've seen put out many times more. I wonder if part of their secret is keeping output low.
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Thanks Paul. Those Martens look like a tall order for the TBI (guessing the Miles also dip down to 4 ohms on the low end?), so that's a great review all things considered.
Did I read someone is going to use it with their Maggies? :o :lol:
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Thank you Paul to take time out of your busy schedule and do a review on this amplifier. I knew that this would be one of the toughest comparisons on the tour for the TBI amp. I am pretty sure that these Martens and the Maggies will be the toughest speakers for the TBI to drive on the tour.
BTW Paul, do you think some of that grain that you heard could have been eliminated by setting the amp on your pro stand instead of sitting it on your hardwood floor?
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Thanks for a most excellent and well written review, Paul. :thumb:
I’m looking forward to giving the amp a spin with a couple of different speakers. :D
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Yeah, I'm going to put them on my Magnestand mmg's, but out of all the Maggie's, they're the easiest to drive I would think. I get good output (somewhere in the 90dB range) with 57 watts per side before with the Virtue, but that's pushing the amp awfully hard.
At 32 watts, this TBI should at least be able to drive normal listening levels and should be comparable to the Virtue. Well it will be comparable, it's going to be compared :thumb:
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Yeah, I'm going to put them on my Magnestand mmg's, but out of all the Maggie's, they're the easiest to drive I would think. I get good output (somewhere in the 90dB range) with 57 watts per side before with the Virtue, but that's pushing the amp awfully hard.
At 32 watts, this TBI should at least be able to drive normal listening levels and should be comparable to the Virtue. Well it will be comparable, it's going to be compared :thumb:
Should be interesting. The MMGs are 4 ohm nominal with medium (86db) sensitivity. That's asking a lot from the TBI. Given what I have read about Paul's (Accuton=drool btw) speakers in terms of specs, I am really surprised the TBI acquitted itself so well. On the TBI site it states the amp is optimized for 8 ohm and only 12v should be used for low impedances...
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....
BTW Paul, do you think some of that grain that you heard could have been eliminated by setting the amp on your pro stand instead of sitting it on your hardwood floor?
Tom,
Dunno, I didn't (and couldn't) spend enough time with the amp to experiment with its coupling/isolation. From previous experience, amps really do benefit in both resolution throughout the spectrum as well as bass control from optimizing their physical environment.
Regards,
Paul
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The amp is on the way to Freo-1. He might not receive it until Monday.
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I’ve started listening to the amp. With the supplied AC power supply, the amp sounds nice, but nothing special. However, with the battery power supply, this little guy really delivers the goods. I only got about an hour of listening out of it before the battery was too low (started making popping noises). So, I’m charging up the battery, and will report back after some listening.
Too early to tell, but so far, on the battery, this amp sounds MUCH better than I would have thought.
Makes me wonder if a dedicated outboard linear power supply would also work well?
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I’ve started listening to the amp. With the supplied AC power supply, the amp sounds nice, but nothing special. However, with the battery power supply, this little guy really delivers the goods. I only got about an hour of listening out of it before the battery was too low (started making popping noises). So, I’m charging up the battery, and will report back after some listening.
Too early to tell, but so far, on the battery, this amp sounds MUCH better than I would have thought.
Makes me wonder if a dedicated outboard linear power supply would also work well?
What kind of power supply does it come with, is it a switching one?
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I forgot to mention that one thing about the popping. The battery needs charging.
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What kind of power supply does it come with, is it a switching one?
Yes. It looks like one you get with a laptop computer.
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I forgot to mention that one thing about the popping. The battery needs charging.
How long does it take to charge? Do you happen to know how many amp hours does the supplied pack have?
Also, are there 24 vdc battery packs with more amp hours you are aware of off the cuff? Thanks!
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How long does it take to charge? Do you happen to know how many amp hours does the supplied pack have?
Also, are there 24 vdc battery packs with more amp hours you are aware of off the cuff? Thanks!
I usually charge it for about three hours.
I was somewhat scared before I sent the amp out on tour. I turned my system on, and it was sounding somewhat flat and unemotional. Aha, the magic is finally gone, I thought.
I went over to unhook everything and lo and behold, I had the battery on charge and the AC power supply hooked up to the amp. :duh:
I have been looking at Lithium batteries, but I wish I knew more about them. I would hate to buy an expensive one and it was too much voltage for the amp. I would hate to blow out too many AMR fuses.
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Tom, 24 volts should be 24 volts regardless of how the battery is made. (At least, I would hope that would be the case).
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How long does it take to charge? Do you happen to know how many amp hours does the supplied pack have?
Also, are there 24 vdc battery packs with more amp hours you are aware of off the cuff? Thanks!
The 24v battery thing is the thing I would need to figure out if the amps works out. I need a solution that is low maintenance. Aren't there chargers that can stay plugged in 24/7?
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The 24v battery thing is the thing I would need to figure out if the amps works out. I need a solution that is low maintenance. Aren't there chargers that can stay plugged in 24/7?
This is low maintenance as far as I have experienced. I ususlly get a full week on the battery running it 2-4 hours per night. I plug the charger in on Sunday night before I go to bed.
But even on amps that you can plug the bettery in 24/7, I still hear a subtle hardness from the AC line. I prefer a no charger hook up to the amp for the best sound.
And Freo-1, it seems that many of the Lithiums puts out 25-27V. I am going to still try one as soon as I can. Those that say capacitor banks improves the sound hooked up to a battery, I am anxious to try that out too.
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This is low maintenance as far as I have experienced. I ususlly get a full week on the battery running it 2-4 hours per night. I plug the charger in on Sunday night before I go to bed.
But even on amps that you can plug the bettery in 24/7, I still hear a subtle hardness from the AC line. I prefer a no charger hook up to the amp for the best sound.
And Freo-1, it seems that many of the Lithiums puts out 25-27V. I am going to still try one as soon as I can. Those that say capacitor banks improves the sound hooked up to a battery, I am anxious to try that out too.
Thanks Tom. You're using 2x 5Amp 12v, right? (sorry too lazy to read thread over).
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Makes me wonder if a dedicated outboard linear power supply would also work well?
I could not tell the difference between a battery and a good linear PS in my digital amp. Both were huge improvements over the stock switching PS.
I guess that's one way to save $ building an amp... don't include a decent power supply. :scratch:
@Ozark Tom, I think the best way to do batter power is probably going to be a LiFePO4 battery at 25.6 V with a voltage regulator set at 24V and some output capacitance. The voltage regulator shouldn't get too hot shunting 1.6V out of 25.6... You would need to build a simple circuit for the voltage regulator and cap bank, unfortunately, I am not enough of an expert to draw up a schematic for you, but I'm sure you can find what you need at diyaudio.
An alternative would be to buy strictly 12V batteries like the motorcycle battery I linked to and a cap bank with no voltage regulator. Usually 12V auto batteries put out ~12.4V so you'd get just under 25V which will probably be ok, especially if you've already been running it with 2 12V SLA batteries already.
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Thanks Tom. You're using 2x 5Amp 12v, right? (sorry too lazy to read thread over).
Right. :thumb:
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I could not tell the difference between a battery and a good linear PS in my digital amp. Both were huge improvements over the stock switching PS.
I guess that's one way to save $ building an amp... don't include a decent power supply. :scratch:
@Ozark Tom, I think the best way to do batter power is probably going to be a LiFePO4 battery at 25.6 V with a voltage regulator set at 24V and some output capacitance. The voltage regulator shouldn't get too hot shunting 1.6V out of 25.6... You would need to build a simple circuit for the voltage regulator and cap bank, unfortunately, I am not enough of an expert to draw up a schematic for you, but I'm sure you can find what you need at diyaudio.
An alternative would be to buy strictly 12V batteries like the motorcycle battery I linked to and a cap bank with no voltage regulator. Usually 12V auto batteries put out ~12.4V so you'd get just under 25V which will probably be ok, especially if you've already been running it with 2 12V SLA batteries already.
For some, like the Posituve Feedback review said, the amp does sound good with the AC switching suppy. The TNT review said it beats the Dayens Ampino and I can vouch for that since I had one here at the time with the Murdorph oil cap and Alps volume control mods. And Jan at TBI encourages anyone to mod the amp to your liking.
But on my system, the battery improves it by about 40%, and that is quite a bit by my standards.
Jan also encouraged me to try that 24V K2 Energy Lithium battery, he feels that it will not blow the fuse. But since I only need about 5 watts to blow my head off, I might try this 12V first since it is only $95 on Ebay.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/370502992418?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
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Jan also encouraged me to try that 24V K2 Energy Lithium battery, he feels that it will not blow the fuse. But since I only need about 5 watts to blow my head off, I might try this 12V first since it is only $95 on Ebay.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/370502992418?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
Yeah, that's similar to the motorcycle battery I linked to and about the same price. Check out and see what charger it needs, the battery I linked to can use a smart SLA charger which you probably already own, so that might save you some $ if the one on ebay requires you to buy a charger.
Also, I don't consider a switching supply "decent". Maybe for some, but since you have experienced the huge upgrade a better PS can make you know.
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In my case I would need permanent power - the gf would not appreciate batteries need charge in the middle of a tv show and I won't always remember to charge. I have had good experiences with beefy smps like connexelectronic and I have heard equally good things about the meanwell supplies when it comes to audio so may opt for those instead...that or always attached trickle charger on batteries.
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For some, like the Posituve Feedback review said, the amp does sound good with the AC switching suppy. The TNT review said it beats the Dayens Ampino and I can vouch for that since I had one here at the time with the Murdorph oil cap and Alps volume control mods. And Jan at TBI encourages anyone to mod the amp to your liking.
But on my system, the battery improves it by about 40%, and that is quite a bit by my standards.
Jan also encouraged me to try that 24V K2 Energy Lithium battery, he feels that it will not blow the fuse. But since I only need about 5 watts to blow my head off, I might try this 12V first since it is only $95 on Ebay.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/370502992418?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar (http://compare.ebay.com/like/370502992418?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar)
Tom, I think you being kind to the AC power supply. To date, with my system, the battery is closer to 80 to 90 per cent improvement in performance (it’s that dramatic). The difference in soundstage, clarity, 3D, and HF is remarkable. On the battery, vocals remind me of a good tube SET, while on the AC, not so hot.
I’m still wondering if a well designed linear power supply would work as well. I think it would need a lot of filtering, but could be worth looking into for those who do not want to mess around with occasionally charging a battery.
I’ll be submitting a more detailed review at the end of the week, but so far, the amp on the battery has FAR exceeded expectations, and I would heartily recommend to anyone who has a low power system setup to give it a serious audition.
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I’m still wondering if a well designed linear power supply would work as well. I think it would need a lot of filtering, but could be worth looking into for those who do not want to mess around with occasionally charging a battery.
I got an old linear PS with 12V and 5V taps and it was indistinguishable from an Optima yellow top with a bank of electrolytic and film caps when powering my t amp.
With either PS, the internal resistance of the PS will mostly be determined by the caps... in my amp, I replaced the last electrolytic in the PS with a Mundorf M-Tube Cap ($50 film cap vs. $2 electrolytic) and the difference in dynamics and bass was not subtle. So IMO, either a battery PS or a linear PS could be better, it just depends on the parts used....
I see battery power as being a kind of "shortcut" to rectification, voltage regulation and filtering, although I'd guess in the best examples (probably RWA power supplies) there is probably voltage regulation and filtering after the battery too.
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lots of praise, looking forward to hearing these.
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If there's a linear AC power supply that is equal to a battery, I would prefer it. It's just one more battery that either ends up in a landfill or even if properly disposed, requires recyling of hazardous materials.
Batteries are nice for portable applications when an AC source isn't available, but for stationary components I'm all for a well designed linear supply.
Steve
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Tom, I think you being kind to the AC power supply. To date, with my system, the battery is closer to 80 to 90 per cent improvement in performance (it’s that dramatic). The difference in soundstage, clarity, 3D, and HF is remarkable. On the battery, vocals remind me of a good tube SET, while on the AC, not so hot.
I’m still wondering if a well designed linear power supply would work as well. I think it would need a lot of filtering, but could be worth looking into for those who do not want to mess around with occasionally charging a battery.
I’ll be submitting a more detailed review at the end of the week, but so far, the amp on the battery has FAR exceeded expectations, and I would heartily recommend to anyone who has a low power system setup to give it a serious audition.
Which speakers are you using?
I have most of the parts needed to whip up a basic linear power supply. I'll see if I can do a comparison.
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Here is a good source on power supplies. Jan at TBI says that this is the place they use.
http://www.batteryspace.com/
The only problem with using an AC power supply with this amp, it is so revealing that battery will probably win out every time.
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Here is a good source on power supplies. Jan at TBI says that this is the place they use.
http://www.batteryspace.com/
The only problem with using an AC power supply with this amp, it is so revealing that battery will probably win out every time.
You are absolutely right OT. That is always the case with extremely revealing components (as I learned from my long experience in the search of the best phono stage), unless one goes the power regeneration route which is what I eventually did (I own three quality units from reputable manufacturers serving my three systems: 1 from PS Audio and 2 from Pure Power). Although seemingly expensive, as one continuously improve all components in one's system(s), constantly adding ever more revealing pieces, the need/desire/quest for the best battery power supply possible--for each one of those revealing components—at the end, implies an even more expensive proposition (not to mention the cost/chore of replacing and disposing all those batteries). Of course, quality AC power supplies in the components are a must to begin with so that the regenerated power can fully show its virtues.
Mario
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Which speakers are you using?
I have most of the parts needed to whip up a basic linear power supply. I'll see if I can do a comparison.
I’m using Cary Audio Silver Oak Model One Speakers. They are a two way crossed over at 3 KHz, with each speaker sporting a pair of SEAS Excel Magnesium drivers, and a SEAS Excel silk dome tweeter. They are a very easy load to drive. Also am using a Genesis G 928 subwoofer, which helps out the bottom end quite a bit.
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I'm not so sure about the battery winning out every time. I have a cdp plugged into the wall, and then I have that going into a battery powered LDR attenuator, and that into a battery powered Virtue Two.2. I'm all batterie'd up. In a few days I'll have the Ncores with their advanced switching supply, that by accounts, is so good it doesn't even need power conditioning. So I'll be listening as truthfully as I can, I'll be listening hard to see if a battery powered supply is the best no matter what.
I also have a Linear supply I can compare to as well.
Looking forward to hearing this TBI, but maybe some of you more technical people can answer this: It appears to me, if this TBI is an indication, that Tripath amps sound better the less wattage you force from them. Because otherwise there's no reason why this TBI has to only be 32 watts. The Virtue is probably just as tiny, but pumps out nearly twice that amount. I will of course, compare those two amps, the Virtue and the TBI (probably the fairest, most apples to apples comparison of this shootout).
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I'm not so sure about the battery winning out every time. I have a cdp plugged into the wall, and then I have that going into a battery powered LDR attenuator, and that into a battery powered Virtue Two.2. I'm all batterie'd up. In a few days I'll have the Ncores with their advanced switching supply, that by accounts, is so good it doesn't even need power conditioning. So I'll be listening as truthfully as I can, I'll be listening hard to see if a battery powered supply is the best no matter what.
I also have a Linear supply I can compare to as well.
Looking forward to hearing this TBI, but maybe some of you more technical people can answer this: It appears to me, if this TBI is an indication, that Tripath amps sound better the less wattage you force from them. Because otherwise there's no reason why this TBI has to only be 32 watts. The Virtue is probably just as tiny, but pumps out nearly twice that amount. I will of course, compare those two amps, the Virtue and the TBI (probably the fairest, most apples to apples comparison of this shootout).
There are different tripath chips with different specs and requirements from 8w to 300w and higher(2024/20,2022,2050,3020,etc). If you mean the the 2050 that I believe the Virtue uses I have not read about anyone using them at lower power (probably because one could just as well use the other lower power chips like TA2024). Hifimediy does sell a low power 2050 now though.
Because otherwise there's no reason why this TBI has to only be 32 watts.
?
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There are tripath's with hundreds of watts, is why I said that. Ok, so this is a low power variant of the chip. Didn't know that.
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I've had my Virtue nodded as heck too, and on that amp batteries are certainly superior, but I didn't get a "40%" jump with any if the changes. Large improvements yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim such a leap. I hope you are shipping the regular supply with the TBI so I can too experience this enormous jump by switching supplies with the TBI.
Going to batteries on the Virtue did increase refinement but I wouldn't feel comfortable saying 40% improvement.
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Just unboxed the amp and yeah that power supply is the kind I normally I toss in a bin right away :lol: (speaking of which, gotta empty that thing out!). Not hard to beat that with a little effort. Too bad the valley is in the 100s this week, won't be able to do much listening until late tonight when we can give the a/c a break. :o
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well, if it's the same power supply connector as the Virtue, I have a linear supply and also a 30v/90watt switching supply to compare to the battery supply with the TBI.
I also have my 8ohm GR Insignia monitors as an easier load as well.
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I've had my Virtue nodded as heck too, and on that amp batteries are certainly superior, but I didn't get a "40%" jump with any if the changes. Large improvements yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim such a leap. I hope you are shipping the regular supply with the TBI so I can too experience this enormous jump by switching supplies with the TBI.
Going to batteries on the Virtue did increase refinement but I wouldn't feel comfortable saying 40% improvement.
Both power supplies are in it. If your system is resolving enough, you will hear at least 40%. I told that to my buddy Rex, and he thought it was a lot more like Freo-1 did. I was being somewhat conservative when I quoted 40%, I figured most people would call me crazy if I gave what I thought the real figure was.
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Looking forward to it! I didn't realize there were so many flavors of Tripath.
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There are tripath's with hundreds of watts, is why I said that. Ok, so this is a low power variant of the chip. Didn't know that.
If you mean the TBI, I don't know what it uses. I don't think that's been disclosed.
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Ok, initial impressions: Love the mids. Vocals pop out and I agree with OT on the 'live' nature of the amp. With certain tracks I feel like I am behind the console at the studio. Lots of low level information is now audible and channel separation is impressive. Tight bass. Clean and clear delivery.
As far as power: yes, stock power is meh. However I also compared a 12v (13.9v) Pyramid linear supply I have lying around w/ 12v battery (8xAA) and so far prefer the Pyramid by a hair due to dynamics, so that bodes well.
Please note that this is NOT OzarkTom's modified TBI, but stock I ordered myself. So stock binding posts and NO 24v SLA setup.
Gear: Usher 2-ways (~85db, 8ohms), Pioneer D912 as preamp to help w/ ht duties, PC->ODAC as source, VHAudio Airlok ICs, Sonicraft Neotech UPOCC speaker cables.
More later
Crazy that this amp has been out since 2008. with no buzz until now...
EDIT: Clare Torry has never sounded better on Great Gig In The Sky, and Rick's playing never been as clear.
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If you have a 12V car battery sitting around, you can also try that to get a feel on what the amp sounds like with batteries. The vocals and guitar just gets better.
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If you have a 12V car battery sitting around, you can also try that to get a feel on what the amp sounds like with batteries. The vocals and guitar just gets better.
I listened with AA batteries as mentioned above. Lol, the boss is not going to be down for a car battery in the living room! The Pyramid (with a Felix attached) provided the same experience to my ears as the AAs, with the batteries being a little quieter perhaps but not by much. The Pyramids have a little more slam though, are inexpensive and easily available from Amazon. I bet Paul Hynes could whip something up that would be amazing. Batteries are probably the best way to go but there's plenty of room for exploration.
At any rate I think I will keep the TBI. I love my Classdaudio CDA254 and in my setup there are certain things it does really well: really wide presentation, full, organic, transparent, lots of power. You just can't accuse their amps of sounding digital. I love them. BUT, vs. the TBI it's kind of like using a cap vs. no cap in a circuit. No matter how good the cap, unless you're looking for flavor you can't beat no cap at all. The TBI to my ears is more like no cap at all. Hate to use the word veil but I looked up thesaurus.com and couldn't find anything better. So uh yeah, some serious veil removal. And other stuff, but I think other people have covered it well: holographic, you are there, master tape...Kind of trippy really. I'll leave it other folks to wax lyrical.
On the critical side: the no cap thing is a blessing and a curse for obvious reasons. Also I do detect just a slight, slight treble emphasis. Not digital or artificial in any way and *very* slight. This could be for any number of reasons gear-wise. Not to mention break-in. Likely culprits are speakers (pretty flat with slight rise in tweeter) and/or the ODAC. But it was there so I'll mention it. Finally, the amp has a lot of gain and I can't run it with the pot wide open, so some purity may be lost there? I'm stretching here obviously.
I do not have the high end retail experience most of you guys have - for whatever reason I just end up building stuff. So all I can compare to are other amps I've built, including tripath and tube amps. I would have built a Pass F5 by now if I didn't live in toasty LA. I did buy an Onix SP3 though. So I can't say if the TBI kills giants dead or no, but it is a new kind of aural experience for me and that's exciting.
Now, let's see about those binding posts. Maybe some wiring changes. Hm, and the rca's...
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I listened with AA batteries as mentioned above. Lol, the boss is not going to be down for a car battery in the living room! The Pyramid (with a Felix attached) provided the same experience to my ears as the AAs, with the batteries being a little quieter perhaps but not by much. The Pyramids have a little more slam though...
Now, let's see about those binding posts. Maybe some wiring changes. Hm, and the rca's...
The pyramid supply has more "slam" because it uses capacitors with a lower ESR than the internal resistance of the battery. If you put some caps across the batteries you will get the same "slam".
As far as binding posts, I just ordered some Pomona 3770 binding posts. They are gold plated tellerium copper, same material all copper binding posts are made of including the Cardas copper posts. Price is $8.60 each, so about $35 for a set of 4 vs. $75 for the Cardas posts. The Cardas posts do look nicer but nobody can see my binding posts anyway... I have not installed the Pomona posts yet so I can't comment on their performance yet. But everytime you get rid of a brass connector it makes an improvement IMO.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=yih5jomMvb3Uhbdu3XO%2FAg%3D%3D
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I listened with AA batteries as mentioned above.
I tried the AA's also, I was not very impressed. I guess it is great if you take the amp on the road to use it on a camping trip or hotel room.
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Wushu, it doesn't have to be such a big deal to have batteries. I have my two 24volt batteries (the setup is NOT that big, in fact my linear supply is monstrously huge compared to batteries and a charger) and charger tucked away nicely out of view. The charger is a CTEK and is plugged in 24/7 with absolutely no issues.
I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Heck if necessary you could even make yourself a nice looking case to hold the batteries in if they must be in site. It doensn't have to be ugly. Hate you see you not get the most out of your amp.
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I tried the AA's also, I was not very impressed. I guess it is great if you take the amp on the road to use it on a camping trip or hotel room.
OT, again, you are right, but please keep in mind the following to get a proper perspective (from the TBI website):
“Into an 8 ohm load the MILLENIA MG3 amplifier provides 8 watts of power per channel at less than 1% distortion and 10 W at 10% with controlled clipping recovery when operating on 8 internal AA batteries. When using the AC power supply, which provides twice the voltage of the battery, this unique product delivers 32 W of power per channel for musical passages at less than 1% distortion while having a maximum power rating of 40 W at 10%.”
As you can see, the AA batteries (12 volts of DC power) provide 8 W of amplifier power at 1% distortion and 10 W at 10% distortion…namely, trying to extract merely 2 extra watts increases distortion to 10%!! Now, if you use the AC power supply which provides 24 volts of DC power, or a 24 volt external battery arrangement, then, you get 32 W of amplifier power at 1% distortion and 40 W at 10% distortion. Granted, there is “controlled clipping recovery” but clipping is clipping and no matter how controlled, the effect of clipping will be audible once it shows up and distortion starts to increase at whatever ratio the clipping-control circuit allows. Accordingly, besides the inherent SQ differences between battery power and AC power, some of the differences in SQ heard (by users) with higher voltage DC power (24 volts instead of 12 volts, AC or battery generated) are most likely the result of different/higher degree of clipping as the power demands on the amp increase---larger rooms, highly power-demanding musical programs, not so efficient speakers, etc.
Mario
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Based on my listening impressions to date, a 24 volt battery setup seems to be the way to go with this amp. It would be interesting to compare the battery to a good liner power supply. I do think the battery is an elegant and simple solution. Just have to house it in an appropriate case for the spousal acceptance factor.
I have not noticed any tilting of the treble. If anything, I’ve noticed that the treble is very clean, and does not call attention to itself. Considering most all Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a somewhat etched treble, this is remarkable. The one spectrum that really grabs one’s attention is vocals. My goodness, I can’t remember when I have heard such realistic sounding playback of vocals (much like the best of a SET tube unit), only coming from a dead quiet background.
Detailed write up to follow…..
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Wushu, it doesn't have to be such a big deal to have batteries. I have my two 24volt batteries (the setup is NOT that big, in fact my linear supply is monstrously huge compared to batteries and a charger) and charger tucked away nicely out of view. The charger is a CTEK and is plugged in 24/7 with absolutely no issues.
I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Heck if necessary you could even make yourself a nice looking case to hold the batteries in if they must be in site. It doensn't have to be ugly. Hate you see you not get the most out of your amp.
Lol, not making a mountain out of anything and I haven't rule batteries out. I know my habits and it would be easy for me to forget to charge them. I am not new to battery power for audio :wink:. I am trying to be thorough in exploring all options and sharing what I find. Also I have never built a linear supply from scratch before so it will be a learning experience for me. I'll move on from discussing PS...
@ Freo-1 The treble thing was really, really slight. I am just being thorough in bringing it up. I have been used to the CDA which is very forgiving in the top end. With a new component in the mix there's always some reassessments that have to be done and break-in and yadda yadda. Plus my gear is modest. So please take my early impressions as just that for now.
More later
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Lol, not making a mountain out of anything and I haven't rule batteries out. I know my habits and it would be easy for me to forget to charge them. I am not new to battery power for audio ;) . I am trying to be thorough in exploring all options and sharing what I find. Also I have never built a linear supply from scratch before so it will be a learning experience for me. I'll move on from discussing PS...
@ Freo-1 The treble thing was really, really slight. I am just being thorough in bringing it up. I have been used to the CDA which is very forgiving in the top end. With a new component in the mix there's always some reassessments that have to be done and break-in and yadda yadda. Plus my gear is modest. So please take my early impressions as just that for now.
More later
No worries, mate :thumb:
It does take some time to sort out a new component in a given system.
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Replaced binding posts w/ Cardas. Replaced RCAs w/ DH Labs CMR-1s. Internal speaker wire replaced w/ vhaudio airlok. Don't know what solder Jan uses but it is easy to desolder, melts quickly.
Btw, the TBI uses a TI TPA3100. Pretty much zero info on it available aside from technical pdf.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66243)
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Replaced binding posts w/ Cardas. Replaced RCAs w/ DH Labs CMR-1s. Internal speaker wire replaced w/ vhaudio airlok. Don't know what solder Jan uses but it is easy to desolder, melts quickly.
Btw, the TBI uses a TI TPA3100. Pretty much zero info on it available aside from technical pdf.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66243)
Nice, I love those RCA's. :thumb:
Your amp probably sounds better than mine now.
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My buddy Rex was looking all over Ebay and found this great looking wood box to store the 2-12v batteries and charger in. And it only costs $12.95+$10.75 shipping. You will have to drill some holes to run your wires out of it.
I told my wive that it was also an ash box, so when she cremates me, she can take the batteries out and put my ashes in it. But she came back with, "I will just leave the batteries in it and when I think you need a charge, I will just plug it into the wall and turn it on." :o
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mahogany-Craft-Jewelry-Ash-Keepsake-Storage-Boat-Personal-Box-/280933821569?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4168f5ec81
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Nice, I love those RCA's. :thumb:
Your amp probably sounds better than mine now.
After these mods...oh man.
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I told my wive that it was also an ash box, so when she cremates me, she can take the batteries out and put my ashes in it. But she came back with, "I will just leave the batteries in it and when I think you need a charge, I will just plug it into the wall and turn it on." :o
:lol:
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After these mods...oh man.
Did you do the binding posts and RCA jacks at the same time? I am looking at copper RCA jacks and they are pricey! Those DH labs jacks look like a decent value, just wondering how much of a difference you think they make?
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Ok, post mod update:
(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/373517_290402787663642_781459441_n.jpg)
oh and treble thingy? gone.
thanks to OzarkTom for bringing this amp to light.
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Did you do the binding posts and RCA jacks at the same time? I am looking at copper RCA jacks and they are pricey! Those DH labs jacks look like a decent value, just wondering how much of a difference you think they make?
Yes all were done at the same time. I have used the jacks on and off for several years with months in between as I jump from project to project. They always improve performance. Always. I have tried to be skeptical cause I have a lot of shiny cheap ones from HK that I use too but I hear the difference every time. So I gave in and now use wherever possible.
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Yes all were done at the same time. I have used the jacks on and off for several years with months in between as I jump from project to project. They always improve performance. Always. I have tried to be skeptical cause I have a lot of shiny cheap ones from HK that I use too but I hear the difference every time. So I gave in and now use wherever possible.
Thanks. For $30/pair they seem like a great value, and partsconnexion is having a 20% off sale right now, so $24/pair... I may cave in and buy 3 pair for my DAC and preamp. I have the Vampire copper jacks in my amp but never compared them to brass RCAs...
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Could we separate the mods/battery discussion from the tour related posts before this thread gets really long? (I give up on long threads and this is approaching my limit.)
thank you
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Could we separate the mods/battery discussion from the tour related posts before this thread gets really long? (I give up on long threads and this is approaching my limit.)
thank you
That's why I said I would stop discussing it. :wink:
In other news, I guess I can claim fanboy status: I emailed the reviewer at TNTAudio who did the 3 amp mini comparison last year between the TBI, Ampino, and Trends. Basically asking why no effort was made to actually *review* the Ampino and TBI (there was a previous review for the Trends). The Ampino is award-winning and has gotten accolades. It was also the first 'review' of the TBI. All he does is compare a few tracks and says 'this one has better bass', 'this one has better highs', then a small paragraph where says the TBI sounded best and that's it. So you have an amp that you know is better than one of the current lauded budget audiophile amps which you don't even bother to discuss in any detail, and all you can do is a little 'good on you buddy' and call it a day?
His reply to my email (which was very polite) was as pithy as the 'review' itself - basically 'I said all that needed to be said'. Good thing Positive Feedback gave it a chance.
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In other news, I guess I can claim fanboy status: I emailed the reviewer at TNTAudio who did the 3 amp mini comparison last year between the TBI, Ampino, and Trends. Basically asking why no effort was made to actually *review* the Ampino and TBI (there was a previous review for the Trends). The Ampino is award-winning and has gotten accolades. It was also the first 'review' of the TBI. All he does is compare a few tracks and says 'this one has better bass', 'this one has better highs', then a small paragraph where says the TBI sounded best and that's it. So you have an amp that you know is better than one of the current lauded budget audiophile amps which you don't even bother to discuss in any detail, and all you can do is a little 'good on you buddy' and call it a day?
His reply to my email (which was very polite) was as pithy as the 'review' itself - basically 'I said all that needed to be said'. Good thing Positive Feedback gave it a chance.
I feel he was being fairly accurate on the review. He was only using a stock unit and it was edging out the Ampino on AC power. It was because of his review, I had to try the TBI. I had an Ampino in my system when I read it, and was impressed with the Ampino at the time.
And I am thankful for the Positive Feedback review, since it delved deeper into the design and sound quality than the TNT review.
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Well, it’s time to write up a more detailed review of the TBI Millenia MG3 amplifier. The take away is that this is truly one impressive sounding device, and a remarkable achievement of engineering at its price point. One could spend FAR more cash and not achieve anywhere near the same level of quality sound.
First off, let me state this amp is not for everyone. It has limitations one needs to be aware of:
1) At a maximum of 32 WPC into an 8 ohm load, the amp is suited primarily to systems configured to get the most out of a low wattage amp. This amp can and does play loud for 32 watts, and seems to have a bit more gain than the standard 26 db or so.
2) The speakers should be greater than 87db/w in order to get optimal performance. The website for the amp also states that the speaker’s minimum impedance should not dip below 3 ohms.
3) The amp comes with an AC power supply that looks just like a laptop power supply. The sound from that power supply is rather pedestrian at best. In order to get the amp to perform to its potential, need to employ an external battery power supply. I would recommend a 24 set up that are at least 7.5 or 10 amp hours.
The equipment used for review was as follows:
1) Modwright Oppo BDP-95 (Tube), with NOS Sylvania Mil-Spec 6SN7 and 5AR4
2) Pass Labs X.2.5 Preamp
3) Cary Silver Oak Model One Speakers (88db/w at 6 ohms) (SEAS Excel Drivers)
4) Genesis G 928 Subwoofer
5) Ran the amp as a power amp, with the TBI volume control all the way up
Now, onto the review:
After replacing my restored Threshold SA/3 with the TBI, I settled in for some listening. First, I listened to the amp with the supplied AC power source. The sound was clean, but un-remarkable. The music sounded 2D, a bit flat and etched, with a treble that very much reminded me of my past Class D amps I’ve owned in the past. After about an hour, switched the AC power source out, and did not go back to it.
Next, I connected the SLA battery to the TBI. Honestly, I thought the amp might sound a little better, but was not expecting anything dramatic. I was wrong. From the fist note I heard after with the TBI, I heard a very pleasant and engaging performance. Whoa! I was not expecting this. The SLA power supply transformed the amp from middle of the road to a high end source in a significant fashion. OK, time to pay attention and try to capture what is going on here:
1) First up was an imported CD of Jethro Tull This Was. I’m very familiar with this recording, so I thought this would be a good start. Listening to the CD on the TBI was like finding a first generation master tape of the performance. The clarity and detail was truly remarkable, low level detail was among the best I’ve ever heard from any system. No doubt the TBI is a great match for the Cary speakers, as the Cary’s were designed to work with low powered SET tube amps. Still, I was taken aback by the sound, and had to wonder on more than one occasion: “This is Class D?”.
2) The next CD was a import Keely Smith from here Capitol years. My, this was a treat! Keely sounded like I could reach out and touch her. One felt like you were in the studio. Horns and strings (two of the hardest instruments to reproduce accurately) sounded like horns and strings. Very impressive.
3) Next was onto classical. Several items from Rachmaninoff were played (Symphony #2, Piano Sonata #2 and #3). The symphony sounded outstanding. The loud passages were reproduced with excellent clarity. It was not quite as concussive as playback via the SA/3, but that is somewhat to be expected given the wattage/headroom deltas. None the less, it was very clean, with no signs of congestion. The piano sonatas were reproduced with a sense of realism that I was again surprised to hear. A Debussy SACD recording of La Mer was a joy to listen to with this setup.
4) Tried some Count Basie next, and the old recordings came to life. Miles Davis was up next (So What on DVD), along with Miles Ahead and Round About Midnight. All sounded great, with accuracy and clarity that I have not experienced before.
After listening critically to the above, I concluded that this amp with the Cary’s and Genesis Sub was a standout combination. I went and pulled out old recordings that I have not listened to in years (Beatles Let It Be, The Smithereens, Hot Tuna, Jefferson Airplane, Johnny Hartman, Oscar Lopez, etc.). When a new piece of gear motivates one to get out old recordings and listen to them again, you know you have something.
I am very impressed with amp on the SLA battery power supply. It has a lot of strengths, and just a few limitations (mostly associated with its lower power out). I would highly recommend anyone who has a low wattage system to audition this amp to see how it integrates into your given system.
Compared to the SA/3, (a 50 WPC Class A Bipolar design) it’s difficult to summarize, but will try:
1) The TBI provided a bit more detail and clarity with the SLA connected to the Cary speakers. The sound from the SA/3 was a bit more rounded, where the TBI seemed a bit sharper.
2) The SA/3 is more concussive, but use of the Genesis G 928 subwoofer almost rendered this a moot point
3) Both amps provided excellent 3D rendering. The TBI might be seen as sitting a few rows closer in the hall, whereas the SA/3 seems to present the performance towards the rear third of the hall.
So, while I’m not about to sell my SA/3, I will be getting a TBI to provide a different perspective when the mood strikes. Also, will be getting a pair of tube 1625 mono blocks in the house for when the tube amp bug strikes. Since all audio gear deviates from live, it’s nice to have different flavors available.
The TBI provides a very satisfying musical performance its owners will go to again and again with pleasure. Highly recommended. :thumb:
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That was a great review.
Freo-1, PM me for the special for AC members on the modified TBI Miillenia amp.
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not to hijack but has anyone heard the new tbi subwoofer amp -xover? Im thinking about upgrading from the basic tbi box amp
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Some last minute impressions before the amp is forwarded to the next person in the tour:
It was suggested to listen to the amp directly from the digital source, bypassing the preamp altogether. So, connected the output of the Modwright Oppo BDP 95 directly to the TBI, and settled in for some listening.
Overall, (in this system), the presentation improved, with low level detail and soundstage more precise sounding. There was a perceived 1 db or drop in the bass registers, which comes across as slightly less concussive. The Modwright Oppo has a sufficient voltage/current output to drive the TBI quite nicely. The 6SN7 output connected to the TBI is a excellent sounding combination.
The downside to this setup is only one source is available and no remote control of source or volume is available. The Modwright Oppo does have a digital volume control, but generally should be set to max out to minimize sound degradation.
I would encourage trying the TBI with and without the preamp to see what works best in your system. I was mildly surprised that direct connection from the Oppo to TBI provided an improvement in overall presentation with this system.
For vinyl lovers, or those with a solid state digital playback setup and a tubed preamp, using the TBI as a power amp may very well be a better option.
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Some last minute impressions before the amp is forwarded to the next person in the tour:
It was suggested to listen to the amp directly from the digital source, bypassing the preamp altogether. So, connected the output of the Modwright Oppo BDP 95 directly to the TBI, and settled in for some listening.
Overall, (in this system), the presentation improved, with low level detail and soundstage more precise sounding. There was a perceived 1 db or drop in the bass registers, which comes across as slightly less concussive. The Modwright Oppo has a sufficient voltage/current output to drive the TBI quite nicely. The 6SN7 output connected to the TBI is a excellent sounding combination.
The downside to this setup is only one source is available and no remote control of source or volume is available. The Modwright Oppo does have a digital volume control, but generally should be set to max out to minimize sound degradation.
I would encourage trying the TBI with and without the preamp to see what works best in your system. I was mildly surprised that direct connection from the Oppo to TBI provided an improvement in overall presentation with this system.
For vinyl lovers, or those with a solid state digital playback setup and a tubed preamp, using the TBI as a power amp may very well be a better option.
Great review. I will add that the binding posts, wire and rca mods are of great benefit to this amp - essential really. It's also impressive how much you get out of the 32 watts.
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It was pretty interesting to come across this thread, and to see how far you guys have taken this neat amplifier.
I wrote the PFO review for the TBI amplifier. I have been a member of AA, AC, AK, and a couple of other groups for a long time, but these days I spend most of my time just browsing the boards. I will say that the Millenia is a great product, and a piece that can bring high quality music back to a sane price point.
There were some last minute technical changes to that piece that created some issues in the body of the writing. If you look close enough, the fractures in the article can be found. Sorry about that, but time constraints would not allow for a complete rewrite. It ended up being what it was.
Couple of things though. Jan does say that the stock power supply is a linear one, not a switching unit. But with a total selling price of $500, its going to be a basic power supply no matter how you look at it. One thing I did discover is that the linear power supply benefited greatly from being run through my Mini Reference power conditioner. Doing this closed the gap considerably between the PS and the battery modes.
Now as far as not running it in 24 volt mode. Well, if I was sent a 24V battery power supply, I certainly would have done so. But I wasn't going to run out and build one just for the review, as I would have no use for it afterwards. This is just one of the constraints of having to do a piece this way. Besides, it gives potential owners an understanding of what the unit will do in stock form.
The mods you guys have given it are really cool. I wouldn't mind hearing this one with the upgraded jacks! I know of a couple of other owners who have used upgraded internal fuses in theirs, including the liquid Audio Magic ones. I also have heard of one owner filling the battery cavity with ESR paper, and reports positive results. I certainly would love to hear one tricked out, and be able to have a stock unit on hand to make a comparison with.
I hope your guys tour of this amp works out. For $500 its a budget buster that allows a person to allocate funds into different parts of a system, and therefore gets serious value for the money they have to spend. In my minds eye, I could see the Millenia driving a pair of Danny Ritchie's Neo 2X, and being fed by a computer system with the Musical Fidelity VDAC II. Quite a lot of sound available there for some short green.
EDIT: What I would really like to hear is two or three of the Millenia used in an actively amplified speaker system. Place a Marchand electronic crossover in front, or even a DSP/Crossover processor, and see what comes about. It could be crazy good.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Mister Pig, your PFO review was great and right on the money. What is so amazing about this $500 amp is that any little improvement tweak that you make in your system and this amp will immediately tell you.
One of the last reviewers on the tour owns Danny Ritchie's Super V's, so that will be a very interesting review.
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As an update, the power supply is a switching unit, not a linear one. Actually as far as a switching unit goes, it looks to be far more substantial than the ones that often comes at this price point. However, if past experience is any indicator, it is not going to equal a good linear power supply.
Perhaps some day in the future a modified Millenia article could be in the works. I would certainly be interested in hearing what a hot-rodded version would be capable of. If it could be the equal or even better than my SET that would be interesting indeed.
A short word about the Electra Print amplifier I use. This is not a typical SET amplifier. Jack Elliano designed this one as a trial bed for using op-amps as a pre driver stage for his A2 circuit. The op-amp is an excellent pre driver stage, and sidesteps many of the issues with traditional signal tube circuits. Noise floor and distortion levels are quite low, which is unusual for a SET. In certain aspects it shares a certain sound quality with the Millenia.
As an example, this amp is dead quiet, with a very low noise floor. Took it over to a friends house once who has custom built Altec 604 speakers. Hooked the amp. up, and flipped the switch on. There is no power indicator light. He is standing next to the speaker, and asks "Is it on?" I say yes, and he says I cannot hear the amplifier at all, its perfectly quiet. This SET is a pretty decent one capable of wide bandwidth and low noise floor.
One more point to discuss. Has anyone with high efficiency speakers made a comparison of 12 versus 24 volt battery configuration. I know of one person who claims to prefer the 12 volt arrangement in his system. He doesn't need the full 32 watts of power in his application. Running it in both modes, he claims the 12 volt arrangement is a tad sweeter. Just thought I would throw that out there as another avenue of exploration.
Regards
Mister Pig
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It was pretty interesting to come across this thread, and to see how far you guys have taken this neat amplifier.
I wrote the PFO review for the TBI amplifier. I have been a member of AA, AC, AK, and a couple of other groups for a long time, but these days I spend most of my time just browsing the boards. I will say that the Millenia is a great product, and a piece that can bring high quality music back to a sane price point.
There were some last minute technical changes to that piece that created some issues in the body of the writing. If you look close enough, the fractures in the article can be found. Sorry about that, but time constraints would not allow for a complete rewrite. It ended up being what it was.
Couple of things though. Jan does say that the stock power supply is a linear one, not a switching unit. But with a total selling price of $500, its going to be a basic power supply no matter how you look at it. One thing I did discover is that the linear power supply benefited greatly from being run through my Mini Reference power conditioner. Doing this closed the gap considerably between the PS and the battery modes.
Now as far as not running it in 24 volt mode. Well, if I was sent a 24V battery power supply, I certainly would have done so. But I wasn't going to run out and build one just for the review, as I would have no use for it afterwards. This is just one of the constraints of having to do a piece this way. Besides, it gives potential owners an understanding of what the unit will do in stock form.
The mods you guys have given it are really cool. I wouldn't mind hearing this one with the upgraded jacks! I know of a couple of other owners who have used upgraded internal fuses in theirs, including the liquid Audio Magic ones. I also have heard of one owner filling the battery cavity with ESR paper, and reports positive results. I certainly would love to hear one tricked out, and be able to have a stock unit on hand to make a comparison with.
I hope your guys tour of this amp works out. For $500 its a budget buster that allows a person to allocate funds into different parts of a system, and therefore gets serious value for the money they have to spend. In my minds eye, I could see the Millenia driving a pair of Danny Ritchie's Neo 2X, and being fed by a computer system with the Musical Fidelity VDAC II. Quite a lot of sound available there for some short green.
EDIT: What I would really like to hear is two or three of the Millenia used in an actively amplified speaker system. Place a Marchand electronic crossover in front, or even a DSP/Crossover processor, and see what comes about. It could be crazy good.
Regards
Mister Pig
Thanks for sharing your insight. I think one of the major reasons this amp sounds so good is what you penned as follows:
“Class D amplification holds a great deal of promise, for it has elegant solutions to many of the issues with traditional Class A/B amplifier topology. A conventional Class D circuit is designed to switch the output devices on and off to amplify each ½ of the signal waveform, however it is fundamentally different than a Class A/B amplifier that also switches its output devices. In a Class D circuit the bias point is non-existent, and there is a moment where both output chips are switched off. This leads to a switching distortion, that has to be dealt with in the circuit. The methods of how to eliminate the effects of this phenomenon are closely guarded trade secrets, and is one of the main reasons that Class D amplifiers sound different from each other. The Millenia amplifier uses an unusual output stage configuration that is essentially a Class BD arrangement, which is different than the more widely used Class D topology. The output of the amplifier is generated differentially between the + and – speaker terminals, and is capable of extremely fast response times. The Class BD circuit used by TBI has quicker transition times, and therefore has fewer switching errors to deal with. Which means that only a minimal degree of filtration and correction needs to be applied to the output of the amplifier, and has negligible effects on sound quality.
The preamp stage of the Millenia amplifier is not a gain stage, for its primary purpose is to provide impedance matching with the source component. Impedance mismatches between amplifier input stages and source components is an area where sound quality can be severely compromised, and the solution implemented in the TBI is an effective means to solve this issue. A newly developed Burr Brown op is used in this circuit, and has a low current and high slew rate characteristic.
This allows for low distortion rates that are consistent at either high or low output levels. In essence, any non-linearities introduced by input signal swings are dealt with consistently at any volume level, which is the intended purpose of a pre-amp stage. The input voltage range of the amplifier is .1V to 4V, and can be driven by traditional audio components, or even portable music devices. Input impedance is 75K Ohms on both the RCA jacks and the 3.5mm input on the front panel. "
I think Mr. Plummer is a pretty smart designer, which means this amp holds its own compared to other amps out there. When connected to a battery power supply, this amp really sings. I hope you get a chance to listen to this amp with the battery power supply. It’s much better on the battery.
Regarding the comment of 12 volt vs. 24 volt, the issue to me is the speakers. Although this a bit of an oversimplification, the more sensitive/efficient a speaker is, the more difficult it is to get it to perform with a flat manner. Personally, I found the Cary Silver Oaks at 88db/w with this amp (and a subwoofer) was both dynamic and linear. The limitation is that a battery with 10 to 12 amp hour is needed with this setup.
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Thanks for sharing your insight. I think one of the major reasons this amp sounds so good is what you penned as follows:
“Class D amplification holds a great deal of promise, for it has elegant solutions to many of the issues with traditional Class A/B amplifier topology. A conventional Class D circuit is designed to switch the output devices on and off to amplify each ½ of the signal waveform, however it is fundamentally different than a Class A/B amplifier that also switches its output devices. In a Class D circuit the bias point is non-existent, and there is a moment where both output chips are switched off. This leads to a switching distortion, that has to be dealt with in the circuit. The methods of how to eliminate the effects of this phenomenon are closely guarded trade secrets, and is one of the main reasons that Class D amplifiers sound different from each other. The Millenia amplifier uses an unusual output stage configuration that is essentially a Class BD arrangement, which is different than the more widely used Class D topology. The output of the amplifier is generated differentially between the + and – speaker terminals, and is capable of extremely fast response times. The Class BD circuit used by TBI has quicker transition times, and therefore has fewer switching errors to deal with. Which means that only a minimal degree of filtration and correction needs to be applied to the output of the amplifier, and has negligible effects on sound quality.
The preamp stage of the Millenia amplifier is not a gain stage, for its primary purpose is to provide impedance matching with the source component. Impedance mismatches between amplifier input stages and source components is an area where sound quality can be severely compromised, and the solution implemented in the TBI is an effective means to solve this issue. A newly developed Burr Brown op is used in this circuit, and has a low current and high slew rate characteristic.
This allows for low distortion rates that are consistent at either high or low output levels. In essence, any non-linearities introduced by input signal swings are dealt with consistently at any volume level, which is the intended purpose of a pre-amp stage. The input voltage range of the amplifier is .1V to 4V, and can be driven by traditional audio components, or even portable music devices. Input impedance is 75K Ohms on both the RCA jacks and the 3.5mm input on the front panel. "
I think Mr. Plummer is a pretty smart designer, which means this amp holds its own compared to other amps out there. When connected to a battery power supply, this amp really sings. I hope you get a chance to listen to this amp with the battery power supply. It’s much better on the battery.
Regarding the comment of 12 volt vs. 24 volt, the issue to me is the speakers. Although this a bit of an oversimplification, the more sensitive/efficient a speaker is, the more difficult it is to get it to perform with a flat manner. Personally, I found the Cary Silver Oaks at 88db/w with this amp (and a subwoofer) was both dynamic and linear. The limitation is that a battery with 10 to 12 amp hour is needed with this setup.
A portion of the listening sessions of the review was written with the power supply in place, the other sections were with the battery power supply being used. Another section was dedicated to using it in portable mode with lithium batteries and a portable music player as a source. Since the amp has this capability, it makes sense to give it a look see.
There is an incremental, yet noticeable shift in the character of the Millenia amplifier when it is used in battery mode. For this evaluation I used an automotive jump pack for its battery and recharging capabilities. A cable had to be fabricated to fit the power port of the jump pack, but that was an easy task to accomplish. When being fed 12-volt power, the Millenia amplifier has increased micro detail, lower noise floor, and improved spatial presentation. The tonal balance of the amplifier undergoes a subtle shift, moving from a slightly warm and full character to one that is delicate and lighter in tone. In many respects the Millenia amplifier in battery mode is closer in sonics to my Electra Print 300B SET amplifier than it is any conventional solid-state piece. When revisiting the Lucia Hwong piece I found that high frequency notes had a longer decay pattern and had a greater degree of shimmer. The distinctive tone of the wood flute in the opening passage had gained a higher degree of realism. The vocal passages moved farther back in the sound stage and now floated in a space above the instruments, expressing the surrealistic feel of this composition. These gains in musical reproduction move the Millenia amplifier closer to what the Electra Print amplifier achieves, which happens to be a $4000 amp and preamp package. While the Millenia does not have the harmonic density, or the complete transparency of the SET amplifier, it comes shockingly close. Which is quite an accomplishment for a $500 integrated amplifier.
The differences between linear and battery power supplies continued to be apparent with all types of music. Returning to "The Fiddling Ladies" I found that the 12-volt option increased transparency and low level detail, just as previously noted. The opening drum passage gained clarity, with each drum strike being easier to hear with the decay trailing off in a natural manner. The violins in this song are quicker and there is greater separation between each instrument. The overall sound when operated on battery power is transparent and lively, which is certainly different than the character of the Millenia when used with the linear power supply. On this song I can appreciate the differences in presentation of both power supplies, although my personal preference is for the battery option.
I used a 12 volt power supply that is basically an automotive jump pack. It powers the motor on my Serac turntable, and happens to be fitted with the same diameter plug for the Millenia. This happens to be a cost effective way to experiment with battery power, provided you can live with the lower power output. For it gives you battery, charger, and case for a moderate price. With 98db efficient speakers, the 10 wpc provided in 12 volt mode was more than enough power. Now a discussion about the linearity of high efficiency speakers or single drivers, there certainly are strengths and limitations to these speaker types. There are fans and detractors to all speaker designs, its a subject many get enthusiastically involved. now back to batteries, it may be that there are performance gains left on the table with the 12 volt arrangement, its an avenue I need to make time to explore in the future.
While it is difficult to isolate the reasons why the Millenia sounds as good as it does, I would suspect that the pre-amp stage plays a significant role. In previous experiences with pre-amps with impedance matching or buffering circuits, there has always been a high level of performance. The TBI amp also seems to move along this pathway. But, its something that I can isolate and verify, it is just a personal hunch.
I will be curious to see what the other members on the tour think of the amp.
Regards
Mister Pig
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A portion of the listening sessions of the review was written with the power supply in place, the other sections were with the battery power supply being used. Another section was dedicated to using it in portable mode with lithium batteries and a portable music player as a source. Since the amp has this capability, it makes sense to give it a look see.
There is an incremental, yet noticeable shift in the character of the Millenia amplifier when it is used in battery mode. For this evaluation I used an automotive jump pack for its battery and recharging capabilities. A cable had to be fabricated to fit the power port of the jump pack, but that was an easy task to accomplish. When being fed 12-volt power, the Millenia amplifier has increased micro detail, lower noise floor, and improved spatial presentation. The tonal balance of the amplifier undergoes a subtle shift, moving from a slightly warm and full character to one that is delicate and lighter in tone. In many respects the Millenia amplifier in battery mode is closer in sonics to my Electra Print 300B SET amplifier than it is any conventional solid-state piece. When revisiting the Lucia Hwong piece I found that high frequency notes had a longer decay pattern and had a greater degree of shimmer. The distinctive tone of the wood flute in the opening passage had gained a higher degree of realism. The vocal passages moved farther back in the sound stage and now floated in a space above the instruments, expressing the surrealistic feel of this composition. These gains in musical reproduction move the Millenia amplifier closer to what the Electra Print amplifier achieves, which happens to be a $4000 amp and preamp package. While the Millenia does not have the harmonic density, or the complete transparency of the SET amplifier, it comes shockingly close. Which is quite an accomplishment for a $500 integrated amplifier.
The differences between linear and battery power supplies continued to be apparent with all types of music. Returning to "The Fiddling Ladies" I found that the 12-volt option increased transparency and low level detail, just as previously noted. The opening drum passage gained clarity, with each drum strike being easier to hear with the decay trailing off in a natural manner. The violins in this song are quicker and there is greater separation between each instrument. The overall sound when operated on battery power is transparent and lively, which is certainly different than the character of the Millenia when used with the linear power supply. On this song I can appreciate the differences in presentation of both power supplies, although my personal preference is for the battery option.
I used a 12 volt power supply that is basically an automotive jump pack. It powers the motor on my Serac turntable, and happens to be fitted with the same diameter plug for the Millenia. This happens to be a cost effective way to experiment with battery power, provided you can live with the lower power output. For it gives you battery, charger, and case for a moderate price. With 98db efficient speakers, the 10 wpc provided in 12 volt mode was more than enough power. Now a discussion about the linearity of high efficiency speakers or single drivers, there certainly are strengths and limitations to these speaker types. There are fans and detractors to all speaker designs, its a subject many get enthusiastically involved. now back to batteries, it may be that there are performance gains left on the table with the 12 volt arrangement, its an avenue I need to make time to explore in the future.
While it is difficult to isolate the reasons why the Millenia sounds as good as it does, I would suspect that the pre-amp stage plays a significant role. In previous experiences with pre-amps with impedance matching or buffering circuits, there has always been a high level of performance. The TBI amp also seems to move along this pathway. But, its something that I can isolate and verify, it is just a personal hunch.
I will be curious to see what the other members on the tour think of the amp.
Regards
Mister Pig
Thanks again for the additional clarification. :thumb:
I needed a 24 volt battery source to get good sound. Your observations about the preamp and the output stages are my hunch as to why this amp sounds so good, and exceeds expectations.
I am also curious to get other's impressions. I would encourage SET bottleheads to audition this.
Well stated about the speaker debate. The fact that the amp worked very well with 88db/w speakers at 6 ohms nominal speaks well of the amp’s ability to reproduce a musically satisfying experience.
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As a means to speed up the lovefest if anyone who is not on the current list but would like to audition, I may offer mine up for a tour :thumb:. I don't have batteries however, so you will have to supply your own power.
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It maybe a long time before my amp gets back. I use the Rethm Maargas, that is 99db efficiency, so I will try the 12 volt. Then I may try the single channel on two amps with two 12v batteries and see how that sounds.
I have Cardas RCA's on order, that might be as big of an improvment as the Cardas binding posts did. I hope so.
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I'm getting more interested in checking this out.
I have a Simple SE EL34 SET amp with about $1k just in parts, and many mods to the basic design. I've listened to a few class D amps and own a Trends tripath amp for a backup amp. Speakers are Omega XRS with the 4.5" driver. My system sounds very mediocre and mid-fi with the Trends amp, but with the SET amp it is transformed into something almost magical, it would be interesting if a class D amp could even come close...
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I've just ordered a tbi amp, would it be possible for one of you to post a photo of your battery pack and connector so I can see what sort of thing I need to build?
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I've just ordered a tbi amp, would it be possible for one of you to post a photo of your battery pack and connector so I can see what sort of thing I need to build?
I can post a picture once my power supply arrives next week.
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My view from the cheap seats: I am going the lazy route and ordered a bunch of d batteries from amazon to properly compare 24v and to gauge longevity before buying SLAs so I can have a sense of how much amperage I need (and I already have all the battery holders needed anyway from previous projects). Energizer max are rated for 20A.
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Jan pointed me in the direction of this site, having another look at it they do what I need for about 200$
http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo418650battery256v2500mah64wh18arate2rx8withpcb.aspx
http://www.batteryspace.com/Smart-Charger-1.2A-for-25.6V-8cells-LiFePO4-Battery-Pack-100-240VAC.aspx
I wonder if there is anyone in the uk doing a similar thing...
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Hi Tom
I have problem to post my review. It's show me this error: The message body was left empty
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OK, because I guess that my review is to big file I will separate this for couple sections, sorry about that:
Here is part# 1:
Well,here is my experience with the TBI amp as i did hear and as I see him react in my room and my system. It is important to understand that this is only for fun and nothing else. Also, everybody who will continue to read must know some basic info about me so he/she can be more in the picture of what I will paint here:
- I'm lover of single drivers/horn speakers (good horns,not honky sound)
- I'm lover of tube sound. My system:
- Tekton design Lore speakers http://tektondesign.com/lore.html
- akustyk passive preamp http://www.akustyk.com/stereo_selector.html
- Jas Audio Musik 1.2 CD player http://www.jas-audio.com/index_topic.php?did=158008&didpath=/156834/158008
- Lindemann 24/192 USB-DAC http://www.lindemann-audio.de/en/products/usb-audio/products/usb-dac-24192/product-features/
- Gabriel Gold Rapture R IC http://gabrielgoldcables.com/interconnects.html#rapture
- L.A.T. International SS-1000 speakers cables http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/wire%20and%20cables/speaker%20cable.html
- Silflex Glass Toslink http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html
- Apple MacBook Air http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air
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Review part# 2
All the above I have had for some time and I'm very happy with. To be fair I did start compressing TBI with Trends 10.1 I have for years. Now you must be thinking that I'm crazy to plug these cables to something little as Trends but the truth is that I'm now very settled with these. I was very impressed with Trends sound years back ( at that time I have CJ LP70S amp) and I bought it new from the first distributor in U.S.A. for $100 as back up unit. Well, after all those years and the change in the economy here is this new kid on the block for couple hundred more but with more of everything. Now more details about TBI. Lots and lots of details and informations. Better deeper bass, also more dynamics. Now, I don't know if I got this right but in low levels I didn't find TBI better but boy oh boy as you crank up the volume - it all starts running at you. It must had very good communications between my speakers and TBI because I'm normally not listening in those levels but I really did enjoy that for change ( thank God that my wife went to the beauty salon for couple of hours,to be precise for four hours). So,very quickly we have a clear winner in this competition. TBI have more power and it's more ready for modifications (bigger case) and sound better in all aspects.
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Review part# 3
As on Tom recommendation I started with some bad quality recordings and I choose "Adele"- He won't go. That song has is about 2:10sec. Incredible drums finish in your left speaker. With the couple of seconds I can perfectly recognize stranght of any power amp. Actually, I end up listening to more songs so I can say that was pretty interesting to me. Not that all songs come somehow better sounding, but overall, I ended up to not make myself get up and change CD or tracks. It is a very good thing to do at beginning of the testing unit because things go from there to even better. Next I continued with some serious recordings. "Ben Harper"- God Fearing Man is about 6:10sec. It came on me big time. I picked this song because of the nature of my speakers. That Audax "gold" super tweeter made an absolutely amazing job with air and reproduction of that metallic guitar Ben is using. I can hear every pinch of his fingers/nails on spiral of the string,he is breathing as he starts to escalate and bang the guitar. In this moment, my sixteen years old son came down from his room and ask me: What is that, I like that song....I was like whoooat? He shocked me that he liked his old man's song. Next I had to cool down a little so I choose "Oscar Paterson Trio"-You look good to me (K2HD) on iTunes. This was a free download and advertisement as an HD recording. I highly recommended this download because the recording is so, so scary good. TBI did an absolutely amazing job. What impressed me the most was the backgrounds in like about 0:50sec. In the right speaker, a bass player starts to play but also at the same time it starts to heavily breathe. I never heard it play so equally with other surroundings. Some amps do show this but it is not as forward as TBI. Is it good or bad? It really is up to your speakers and your system. It was something new for me and I did enjoy it for the time. Next was some my favorite recordings what I always use as recognizing deference in sound. I will mention to you one very interesting recording: "The Bobs"- The wind cries Mary. All songs are made with guys mouth and I did founded this very entertaining also not that bed quality recording. But true is that I did grove on Pink Floyd,Peter Gabriel,Kate Bush,Mike Oldfield..etc.. These day's I found something new in my heart: This Will Destroy You,If These Trees Could Talk,Russian Circles,God Is an Astronaut...etc.. and all Post-rock.
I must also mention about speakers placement. I had little extra time so I played with two positions in my room. First position: in room 22 x16 ft. have speakers about 31/2 ft. from back wall and 3 ft. from side walls and about 10 ft. from each other. Speakers were very,very lightly angled in almost face strait forward. My siding position is about 18ft. from speakers. I have this way open sound with deep stage and good separation. Between changing CD I also did play with output tubes in my Jas CD player. I have these on side to play with Telefunken 12xa7-diamante series,GE 12ax7-square getter,GE 12ay7-square getter,Amperex Bungle Boys 12at7- D getter and my favorite RCA 12dt8- low square getter. I did start listening but with new production JJ ECC803s gold pins. Oh my, am I glad that I did that. Actually I found that sound wasn't balanced and I must set down closer to left speaker. When I did change next tube problem was gone. This is big because thanks TBI I know that JJ is garbage. So for change I did play AirBook to Lindemann DAC and play some files also Pandora radio. On files I have nice song from "The Devlins"- Waiting. Sound was OK but as again in my opinion I was missing tube touch from all that digital source. Lindemann is very nice DAC but I founded myself much more enjoyed tube CD player. In my opinion is that 6x4 or EZ90 power tube what makes big deference. I don't understand why companies not pay attention to buffing power with tubes. Specially in digital sources it makes huge deference. Sure, after that is all other important parts to have everything working nice but nice clean with tube stabilise power will make good start. And that brings me to time when I change batteries for power plug. It takes about 1:20sec. for me unplug power plug and go back to batteries. Four years ago I build one floor additions so I decided to make dedicated line just for audio. I never have any problem in that nature, but for over some time now my main system runs on battery and :folks batteries are batteries.Then I did change position speakers to move them to room 36 x 15 ft. This time speakers will be set totally next back wall about 9 ft. from each other but complete toe in so they cross on front of me. I'm sitting about 9 ft. from speakers. Behind me is like 27 ft. open space. This position sued me the best. Maybe give up layer's of stage but much better presence of details oh God separations and bass is just amazing. That is why I did buy Lores, not many speakers in this size and price can reproduce so steady balanced bass without distortion. I was in line to auditioned new ZU audio speakers in Princeton but for family reason I did not make there so I can't say what speakers are better. For Rocker as myself is how I like system to play.
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Review part# 4
OK, so here goes summary. I founded TBI very special sounded, standing in his own category. Sound is nothing like D-class very close to T-class indeed. You must test this unit before you buy because all background information's what coming at you can be somehow to much and unusual. It's all how will TBI react with your room and system.One thing I also observed is that TBI play much better when set with volume knob all the way up and with external volume control. In another words I like much better as power amp as integrated amp. Also, volume is key for this unit,more db. you play it sound more open with background coming forward much more dynamics but no distortion at all. But that again whoever experience Chris "lonewolfny42" how he can crank up then I don't know if this amp can stand :-)
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Review part# 5
SYNERGY is very important in this business. I like TBI but as recommendation to somebody who is on good start to this crazy hobby. For me who goes via experience in my system with 300B,211,45,2A3,811/572,EL34 in Class A,A/B,D,G,H,T,Mosfet,JET or push pull and companies like: Consonance/Opera,Trafomatic audio,Electra Print,Dodd audio,RWA,Supratek,Jas audio,Audio space,Spectron audio, Gorge Wright audio and some costume build units. Soon coming to me again something unique as I requested. I have idea about four years ago and is time when it can be finalize. Very exited about this.
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Great review, mytubes211! Looks like yet another person finds the amp quite musical.
It is interesting that you found the unit to work best as a power amp. I think that may be system dependant. With my setup, connecting the tube Modwright Oppo directly to the TBI actually was slightly superior overall to running it as a power amp. Each perspective owner will need to sort that out on their own system.
For Low Wattage enthusiasts, this amp is definitely worth an audition.
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It must had very good communications between my speakers and TBI because I'm normally not listening in those levels but I really did enjoy that for change ( thank God that my wife went to the beauty salon for couple of hours,to be precise for four hours).
That is a very strong point that I have found on the TBI, you can play your system at a louder listening level and it will not fatique you like other amps will.
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Absoluty agree with all above. Ritchie
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Review part# 6
In like two monts ago I did buy my son these speakers: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html
I was hoping to get him on my road so I see TBI as good partner for those speakers. As huge surprise for me, he come back to me and he said: It's nice Daddy but I like more what I got already. Are you asking what amp he got? Here is it: http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/pcr800.htm
WHOA THAT IS DADDY'S EARS FOR SURE!!! So he like good all school Mosfet,my job here is done.
Next stop tubes,something like this: http://www.audiospace.com.hk/detail.asp?catid=2270&subcatid=0&pdtid=3629&private=
Cheers Ritchie P.S. I will try to download some pictures tom
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Review part# 6
In like two monts ago I did buy my son these speakers: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html
I was hoping to get him on my road so I see TBI as good partner for those speakers. As huge surprise for me, he come back to me and he said: It's nice Daddy but I like more what I got already. Are you asking what amp he got? Here is it: http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/pcr800.htm
WHOA THAT IS DADDY'S EARS FOR SURE!!! So he like good all school Mosfet,my job here is done.
Next stop tubes,something like this: http://www.audiospace.com.hk/detail.asp?catid=2270&subcatid=0&pdtid=3629&private=
Cheers Ritchie P.S. I will try to download some pictures tom
Great review! Is there any chance you could put a space between paragraphs in the really long post?
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Sound is nothing like D-class very close to T-class indeed.
Class T is class d. Calling it class t was just a marketing ploy.
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Great review! Is there any chance you could put a space between paragraphs in the really long post?
That is what I did in original post but I have problem to posted so I separated and squeeze lines.
Ritchie
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Class T is class d. Calling it class t was just a marketing ploy.
I don't care what it calls. I care that is complete different sound between them. I'm not listing specifications! I'm pleasing my ears
Ritchie
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Great review, mytubes211! Looks like yet another person finds the amp quite musical.
It is interesting that you found the unit to work best as a power amp. I think that may be system dependant. With my setup, connecting the tube Modwright Oppo directly to the TBI actually was slightly superior overall to running it as a power amp. Each perspective owner will need to sort that out on their own system.
For Low Wattage enthusiasts, this amp is definitely worth an audition.
Thanks and absolutely agree with you on Low Wattage guy's Ritchie
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When this thread is over it will be interesting to see how many of you sell your expensive SETs ( or other favorite go-to amp) and replace it with the TBI.
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When this thread is over it will be interesting to see how many of you sell your expensive SETs ( or other favorite go-to amp) and replace it with the TBI.
I will sell you an expensive SET right now, if you are interested. I have already sold my Sophia SET amp, that one didn't even come close at all next to the TBI.
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No, that's not what I meant. But thanks for the offer. :D
Here in the land of low wattage systems, many of us SET die hards keep an eye out for a sweet sounding, cool running summer amp. Maybe the TBI will finally be that amp? Quietly watching . . . .
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No, that's not what I meant. But thanks for the offer. :D
Here in the land of low wattage systems, many of us SET die hards keep an eye out for a sweet sounding, cool running summer amp. Maybe the TBI will finally be that amp? Quietly watching . . . .
Now, I think you may be on to somthing here. :thumb:
This amp, to me, is one that is added to the stable of one's existing amps for occasional use and enjoyment.
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And for those of us who want SET-like performance with less sensitive speakers it's a great option.
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So is this a good amp to put into my main system and drive a pair of Tekton M-Lores with?
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So is this a good amp to put into my main system and drive a pair of Tekton M-Lores with?
Absolutely...
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So is this a good amp to put into my main system and drive a pair of Tekton M-Lores with?
Lores no problem!
Here is this little guy pushing my Vandersteens around via a my passive pre (my preference as it has multiple inputs) 8)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66857)
Hanging awg #8 speaker wires requires horizontal placing.
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I'm definitely going to pull out my monitors for this amp, they should play together well.
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I am finding out that the batteries on the amp tour are not lasting on a charge like they should be. It could be that they are just worn out and the heat they are riding in these semis have flat out drained them. A recent trucker that delivered here at my frame shop said that the interior of his trailer has been hitting over 145 degrees in this heat wave.
If it is all right to the tour people here, will you allow me to pull the amp off and get some new batteries in place. Also, my buddy Rex has finished the RCA mods and the amp is now about 25% better. I think that that is a significant improvement to get the tour amp updated. From the bass to the top end is better, more tranparecy, more detail, and a bigger soundstage. Vocals are better also.
Any objections from The Dirty Dozen+two? :thumb:
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Sounds like a good plan, Tom.
The batteries were giving up the ghost after only a few hours when the unit was in house. Perhaps all that travelling around has shortened their life. The amp should definitely be auditioned with good batteries.
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Tom,
No prob.
As soon as you know, could you project the dates for each stop on the tour (so each of us can plan for it).
For instance, occasionally I'm away from home for 2 - 5 nights at a time (including this next week and again probably in October).
Thanks for your sacriice and efforts.
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A pit stop for refueling and better parts is a great idea :thumb:.
No worries here :D.
When the amp is back on the tack I'll be ready to give it a run 8).
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Tom,
No prob.
As soon as you know, could you project the dates for each stop on the tour (so each of us can plan for it).
For instance, occasionally I'm away from home for 2 - 5 nights at a time (including this next week and again probably in October).
Thanks for your sacriice and efforts.
I will try. If any of you see that you might need to trade places with another, just let me know. Rodge827 did, and now I see that he is ready to listen. He will be next after this brief pitstop.
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The tour amp has been shipped back. As soon as the amp has been modded, we will get the amp back on the road. Thank you for your patience. :thumb:
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Tom,
Take all the time you need.
Thanks for continuing to mod the amp during the tour...way cool 8)
Have a great and relaxing Labor Day Weekend :D
Chris
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I have in house an updated TBI amp with the updated RCA jacks and binding posts. The amp is still breaking in, but so far, performance is very impressive indeed. As posted earlier, the updated RCA’s help out even with the AC power supply.
The TBI MG3 has proven to me that cost alone does not ensure improved performance. This amp easily provides musical enjoyment that MANY far more costly amps simply do not achieve. Granted, the speakers need to be a good match for the unit (SPL and impedance). For those who own a setup that supports low wattage playback, a strong recommendation to audition the TBI is warranted.
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Comments from my short time spent with TBI. My speakers are Zu Definition MK4's, 101db sensitivity with on board powered sub. Amp is a Melody I2A3. The first night I listened on ac power, the sound was decent but not very engaging, thin sounding. The second night although I knew I was not going to be able to sit and listen I hooked up the batteries and turned it on. Working in the adjacent room it kept grabbing my attention. I had to keep running in to sit and listen for a few minutes. I could tell right away it was a much different amp on battery power. Unfortunately the batteries did not last very long. I charged them overnight with the thought of spending most of the weekend doing some serious listening. I began listening again on Sat. playing select cuts from different discs. I was really surprised on how much better the bass was on battery power and as Tom has been saying sound staging and imaging is just crazy good. I was listening fairly loud most of the time and the amp seemed to be coasting along unfortunately the batteries died again after about 2 hours. The Melody being a quality amp although not up to the level of the Zu's does an admiral job with them. As short as my time was with the TBI I'd say it trumps the Melody in every aspect. I must say the Melody is the only amp I have heard with Def 4's so I have no other comparison's. It would be nice to try it with a pre amp to gain at least another input. No doubt it will get better with the coming tweaks.
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I will be selling my modded TBI to pursue a more diy approach based on the same chip as the TBI...
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Where does one go to buy these, anyway? Results from my very brief internet searching did not yield very confidence-inspiring vendors.
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Comments from my short time spent with TBI. My speakers are Zu Definition MK4's, 101db sensitivity with on board powered sub. Amp is a Melody I2A3. The first night I listened on ac power, the sound was decent but not very engaging, thin sounding. The second night although I knew I was not going to be able to sit and listen I hooked up the batteries and turned it on. Working in the adjacent room it kept grabbing my attention. I had to keep running in to sit and listen for a few minutes. I could tell right away it was a much different amp on battery power. Unfortunately the batteries did not last very long. I charged them overnight with the thought of spending most of the weekend doing some serious listening. I began listening again on Sat. playing select cuts from different discs. I was really surprised on how much better the bass was on battery power and as Tom has been saying sound staging and imaging is just crazy good. I was listening fairly loud most of the time and the amp seemed to be coasting along unfortunately the batteries died again after about 2 hours. The Melody being a quality amp although not up to the level of the Zu's does an admiral job with them. As short as my time was with the TBI I'd say it trumps the Melody in every aspect. I must say the Melody is the only amp I have heard with Def 4's so I have no other comparison's. It would be nice to try it with a pre amp to gain at least another input. No doubt it will get better with the coming tweaks.
Quite interesting. I'm looking forward to trying Def 2s (with Def 4 drivers) with this TBI and use a Melody AN211. Its a few steps up from the i2a3, but its interesting to hear this thing outdoing any Melody as I feel they're great performers.
2 hours battery time though? Yeesh. My rig is on for about 6 hours a day.
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Tom was getting over twenty hours with the batteries. I think they are worn out. If you get one of these and keep it long term, a Lithium battery would be in order.
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Okay so my amp arrived here in the UK today. It does sound totally different on the internal batteries. I'm curious to know though, did you guys compare internal to your battery pack? And why would the battery pack sound different? I've not had any issues with how loud it goes.
I am a bit concerned about this talk about the batteries draining.. I was going to buy one of these:-
http://www.razorbase.co.uk/Razor_Spare_Parts/Razor_MX350_Dirt_Bike_Spare_Parts/Razor_RAZ143_Battery
but should I just buy a AA battery pack?
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aa-rechargeable-battery-packs/5440239/
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Something to note, I have my Virtue on a set of batteries permanently connected to a high quality charger... There is no fear of running out and my amp is always warmed up.
- kinda the whole point. The idea of batteries is not to be panicky and looking over your shoulder with a multimeter, it's to have them always on charge.
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Something to note, I have my Virtue on a set of batteries permanently connected to a high quality charger... There is no fear of running out and my amp is always warmed up.
- kinda the whole point. The idea of batteries is not to be panicky and looking over your shoulder with a multimeter, it's to have them always on charge.
As I believe Tom has mentioned, this is viable for the 12v but not for 24v as a 24v charger outputs at higher voltage and would blow the amp fuse. The Virtue's TK2050
can take higher voltages (up to 36? or 32 don't remember), the TBI shuts down >26v.
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Quite interesting. I'm looking forward to trying Def 2s (with Def 4 drivers) with this TBI and use a Melody AN211. Its a few steps up from the i2a3, but its interesting to hear this thing outdoing any Melody as I feel they're great performers.
2 hours battery time though? Yeesh. My rig is on for about 6 hours a day.
Gopher,
I'll retract a little from my comment about bettering the Melody in all aspects. I really did not log enough time with it to come to that conclusion, but wanted to make a point how good this amp sounded. It is definitely on par with it. I also think the battery issue can be resolved. anxious to hear your thoughts on it.
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Okay so my amp arrived here in the UK today. It does sound totally different on the internal batteries. I'm curious to know though, did you guys compare internal to your battery pack? And why would the battery pack sound different? I've not had any issues with how loud it goes.
I am a bit concerned about this talk about the batteries draining.. I was going to buy one of these:-
http://www.razorbase.co.uk/Razor_Spare_Parts/Razor_MX350_Dirt_Bike_Spare_Parts/Razor_RAZ143_Battery (http://www.razorbase.co.uk/Razor_Spare_Parts/Razor_MX350_Dirt_Bike_Spare_Parts/Razor_RAZ143_Battery)
but should I just buy a AA battery pack?
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aa-rechargeable-battery-packs/5440239/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aa-rechargeable-battery-packs/5440239/)
I'm using a very similar setup to the Razor setup you listed. It works fine, and should last a sufficient amount of hours between charges.
One item worth noting: When recharging the batteries, make SURE the power plug is not connected to the TBI, else you will blow the fuse.
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Greetings to everyone here...long time lurker and first post :D.
Just wondering, has anyone tried using lifepo4 batteries?
Reason I'm asking is because I would like to use a lifepo4 battery pack
but the nominal voltage is 25.6v and a little higher hot off the charger.
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Might be worth it. Seems like this amp is privy to the slightest change. Even the paint scheme can add or subtract... 10% performance :icon_lol: kidding fellas.
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Greetings to everyone here...long time lurker and first post :D.
Just wondering, has anyone tried using lifepo4 batteries?
Reason I'm asking is because I would like to use a lifepo4 battery pack
but the nominal voltage is 25.6v and a little higher hot off the charger.
Per the TBI specs page. 26v is the max from an external power supply, so possibly. However
as mentioned the battery must be unplugged from the amp while charging.
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Whatever. I'll be testing this thing 8om, 4ohm battery, no battery, we'll see.
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Whatever. I'll be testing this thing 8om, 4ohm battery, no battery, we'll see.
Just don't expect much with the Maggies, which for the record I think is a really not so great idea for that amp.
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For those of you that is worried about discharge of the battery, you can always go with the 12v battery and smart charger. The 12v battery will allow the TBI to double the power to 33 wpc into a 4 ohm load, and if you have 8 ohm speakers that is 95db efficieny, the 16 wpc will be more than enough to blow your ears off. The advantage of the 12v, you can always leave the smart charger on if you don't hear the AC line from the charger.
Here are some 12v batteries that will also give you a slower discharge if you don't want the smart charger to stay hooked up.
http://www.batteryspace.com/sealedleadacidbattery12v26ahforwheelchairla-12v26ahs.aspx - 26AH
http://www.batteryspace.com/sealedleadacidbattery12v20ah240whs.aspx - 20AH
http://www.batteryspace.com/sealedleadacidbattery12v17ah204whs.aspx -17AH
Here is the 12v smart charger.
http://www.batteryspace.com/leadacidsmartcharger30afor6vand12vleadacidbatterywith3stagesfloatingforworldwide.aspx
And here is the hook-up wire between the battery and the amp.
http://www.batteryspace.com/connectoradaptor55mmx25mmbarrelmaleconnector.aspx
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Greetings to everyone here...long time lurker and first post :D.
Just wondering, has anyone tried using lifepo4 batteries?
Reason I'm asking is because I would like to use a lifepo4 battery pack
but the nominal voltage is 25.6v and a little higher hot off the charger.
I would worry about blowing out the fuse. But so far, the SLA bettery has sounded a little better than lifepo4 battery.
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I'm running on 8AA batteries at the moment and the amp easily goes loud enough. I'd be worried about cranking the volume to max and using my digital source to control the volume incase something played at full volume. So why does the amp sound better when putting the battery power into the main socket rather than using the internal battery compartment? Is it just for convenience. I've had my amp on for 5+ hours and it still hasn't run out of juice.
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Oh do you think these speakers would be a good match for the amp?
http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3408-epos-epic-5-floorstanding-speakers-pair.aspx
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Oh do you think these speakers would be a good match for the amp?
http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3408-epos-epic-5-floorstanding-speakers-pair.aspx
At 92 db efficiency, you should have no worries. I tried the Anthony Gallo Classico 4's with the same specs and it would get much louder than what I want to listen to it.
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Cool thanks Tom. Still trying to decide on what battery pack to build. Presumably with 24v batteries rather than 12 the amp doesn't have to work as hard and therefore there's less distortion introduced?
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Rex received the tour amp today and is modding the RCA's and closely checking the batteries. He also said something must be wrong since he also gets about 20-25 hours of use on his.
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If i connect the supplied AC power supply through a true online UPS, will it be same as using the amp on battery power?
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The short answer is no, not the same as a straight battery setup.
What UPS are you referring to?
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The short answer is no, not the same as a straight battery setup.
What UPS are you referring to?
Was refering to this ups
https://www.emersonnetworkpower.co.in/channels/Common.aspx?id=cPn0S0witHQ= (https://www.emersonnetworkpower.co.in/channels/Common.aspx?id=cPn0S0witHQ=)
Issue was that I was only getting industrial grade chargers here in India which are heavy and bulky.
But just yesterday I got to know about a company which makes smps based chargers
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Rex charge up the tour battery and found that it would charge only to 22V, so it has seen better days. We are still waiting on those two 12V Amazon batteries that I mentioned earlier. The total with shipping was $26.
Speaking of my buddy Rex, I went to visit him over the Labor Day holiday and we experimented with the different set-ups. We thought that the 24V battery sounded about 5-10% better than the 12V. Now if you are using 4 ohm speakers, the 12v might be better. Since one battery was 12v and the other was 24v, we did not hook two amps up. But we did hook up two amps with the AC power supplies, and to my surprise, that sounded the best. The way I understand on that, it has to do with thermal limiting on the amps. The sound was smoother and more open. I want to try that on my system, but do not hold your breath. My power here is very dirty in the town I live in, and battery will probably win.
I am hoping we can get the tour amps back on the road later this week.
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I'm not on the tour, but I purchased a modded amp from Tom (with the Cardas RCA's & spkr connections, etc.). My main amp is the Mastersound Compact 845 SET amp--I feed its 'direct' input from my Monbrison preamp. Source is the AMR dp-777 DAC, and speakers are Daedalus Audio DA-RMa's, augmented by a REL Strata III sub.
My TBI amp probably only has 100-125 hours on it to date, and I have only listened to it via AC pwr so far---I'm awaiting the return of my BatteryBuss, at which time it will be connected to the BatteryBuss fed by 24v. I need to get out and purchase 8 quality AA batteries and try it powered by internal batteries just for comparison sake if nothing else. Also, most of my listening has been done with the Monbrison pre feeding the TBI; I have the TBI's volume control at max. To further make some audiophiles shudder, I use the dp-777's analog volume control--so in essence I have 3 (the dp-777, the Shindo and the TBI) volume controls in the signal path. However, I have found that using the setup to feed the Mastersound amp's direct input (when I only have the volume control of the Shindo and the dp-777 in the signal path) to be outstanding.
Suffice it to say that I am very, very impressed with the modded TBI! While I won't likely be selling my 845 SET amp anytime soon, the TBI gets really, really close to its sound/magic, and of course at a fraction of the cost. I've had many solid state amps in the past, including another Class D amp--once I was bitten by the SET bug, however, SS just hasn't been able to satisfy me. Well, the TBI fills the bill and I have been very contentedly listening to my setup with it installed the past 10 days or so! It has so much of the SET magic to my ears that I almost find it hard to believe!
Also, note that I have the REL Strata III sub connected via its speaker level inputs to the TBI with no problems whatsoever (some Class D amps share a ground or something so that such hookup cannot be used with them).
Tom, in reading your last post (i.e. the comments about hooking 2 amps up), I'm wondering if somehow 2 TBI's could be used in sort of 'mono' mode, with each powering a single channel, and if there would be any benefit from this (or if the TBI would/could be changed internally to perform in mono mode)? These little guys are so good that considering the price, I'd definitely want to add another if they can be used in this manner.....
Randy
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I'm awaiting the return of my BatteryBuss, at which time it will be connected to the BatteryBuss fed by 24v. I need to get out and purchase 8 quality AA batteries and try it powered by internal batteries just for comparison sake if nothing else.
Randy - looking forward to your impression when you do this. Please post. Thank you.
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My TBI amp probably only has 100-125 hours on it to date, and I have only listened to it via AC pwr so far
If this is the case then be ready for a big surprise when you listen to the amp with battery power. For me there was a day and night difference between and battery and AC power
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@wushuliu I was interested to see your post about the treble being too bright. I've got the same problem with this amp. I've run some tests with a sound meter app on my phone and 6.5khz is loudest. I'm going to try out some resistors inside my floorstanders on the tweeter feed.
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I didn't find the treble bright per se, it was a very slight emphasis and disappeared after replacing binding posts and rca's/wiring...
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I didn't find the treble bright per se, it was a very slight emphasis and disappeared after replacing binding posts and rca's/wiring...
I agree 100% with your assessment.
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I've just taken mine apart tonight actually. Did you replace the internal cable as well as the binding post themselves? and did you remove the white plug socket and solder the cable directly onto the board?
I've been looking at those cardas binding posts and it looks like I get get them here for £50 for the two:-
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/binding_posts.html
Not obvious if they come as pairs actually.
On the rca front you presumably ran cable.
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I've just taken mine apart tonight actually. Did you replace the internal cable as well as the binding post themselves? and did you remove the white plug socket and solder the cable directly onto the board?
Yes
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@Audioclyde I'm running on 8 odd AA batteries I had kicking about. I didn't really think much of the amp until I used it with those.
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gilesw, I tried it on some Ultimate Lithium AA's last night for awhile, but much preferred it on AC pwr--I got a bit of glare, overemphasis of the treble on AA battery pwr. I'm still eager to feed if from 24v batteries via my BatteryBuss.
Randy
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Interesting. I do have issues with the treble being too harsh but I've had it down to my various new components just being too revealing and showing up my speakers. The main difference I noticed going to battery was the amp sounded more natural. I'm mulling over whether I should build a 24v battery pack at the moment. Doesn't sound great if you need to replace it all the time though.
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I'd bet something like this PS would be as good as any battery...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-LAMBDA-24VDC-LINEAR-REGULATED-POWER-SUPPLY-WITH-MANUAL-LRS-54-24-/200753570672?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebdd86370
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I'd bet something like this PS would be as good as any battery...
A good industrial power supply, but how good is it for audio applications? It has a tightly regulated voltage output, but a fairly high 100mV peak to peak ripple for a linear audio power supply.
Steve
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I'd bet something like this PS would be as good as any battery...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-LAMBDA-24VDC-LINEAR-REGULATED-POWER-SUPPLY-WITH-MANUAL-LRS-54-24-/200753570672?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebdd86370
I also found the Meanwell 24v SP150 SMPS to be on par with 24v (x16 D) alkaline batteries. Only $50 from Jameco. However both it and the Lambda involve wiring to mains voltage and some folks may feel more comfortable sticking with batteries.
Would be great if other folks did some comparisons though.
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I have to make a wiring harness to connect the battery to the amp.
Any suggestions on what cable should i use since the pin which goes into the amp accepts very thin gauge cables
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Based on feedback from Tom and Jan Plummer, decided to try a second TBI amp in mono. Since I didn't have a second battery, connected the two TBI amps via the AC power supply.
In short, the sound improved remarkably. There was a concussive presence and 3D presentation improvement that was not evident with a single amp in stereo. There was a noticeable improvement in low level detail, along with better dynamics. I suspect that since my speakers are 88db/w efficient, the extra power was indeed welcome, and improved the overall performance. I would think that any speaker setup would benefit from a mono setup.
I would encourage anyone using a TBI amp setup to audition with a second amp in mono.
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I would encourage anyone using a TBI amp setup to audition with a second amp in mono.
Freo-1
I have enjoyed your writings of the MG3 all are very through, even handed, and conclusive.
I believe I'm next on the tour after it is all tricked out and ready to dazzle :D.
I have a couple of questions regarding the quote above:
When you reffer to the MG3 as a mono amp, are you using (2) stereo MG3's, but use only one input per side?
Does or can the MG3 be bridged or reconfigured into a true single channel mono amp?
My speakers (Shelby + Kroll) are a 2.2 set up. The monitors are 86db and bottom out at 100hz with a 6db slope.
A pair of the TBI mono amps would be the way to go in my system.
Chris
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I'm very anxious also to learn how to use the amps in mono; I like the TBI enough just on AC pwr that I will buy another if I can use them in true mono for a noticeable improvement.
Thanks for any insight!
Randy
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Cheers, mates! Happy to help out.
I have each TBI connected to the left channel input. This is Jan's response to my question regarding mono usage:"
" On your questions below the use of two amplifiers would increase your available power by at least 30% as thermal limiting determines the max power. You would also increase your channel separation to near infinity or at least to that limited by your source equipment. An additional benefit is the ability to adjust the channel levels independently if balance was an issue not addressed elsewhere in the system."
Based on the above advice, went ahead and got a second amp. I figured that if it didn't work out, would simply sell it. Happily, the improvement was very noticeable. I would think speakers that are 86/88db/w would benefit a lot form mono usage. Again, the AC source in mono actually sounds better than the battery in stereo. I will eventually upgrade the power supply section, as the folks at TBI are looking into this.
I do not think the amp can be bridged safely.
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Thanks Freo-1
I thought that was the way to use two MG3's as mono's. :D
I just sent Tom my mailing address and the amp will go out soon, hope to have it early next week. 8)
Itching to hear how they will mate with my Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 and Shelby + Krolls. :drool:
Chris
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Thanks Freo-1
I thought that was the way to use two MG3's as mono's. :D
I just sent Tom my mailing address and the amp will go out soon, hope to have it early next week. 8)
Itching to hear how they will mate with my Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 and Shelby + Krolls. :drool:
Chris
No worries! My guess is that you will love it! 8)
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I'm jealous, I guess I need to get me a second one. I still might have to use a battery though, my AC is as bad as you know what.
The tour amp is shipping tomorrow with fresh batteries and the new RCA connector mods. Have fun Chris.
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Thanks Tom will do :D
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Rex charge up the tour battery and found that it would charge only to 22V, so it has seen better days. We are still waiting on those two 12V Amazon batteries that I mentioned earlier. The total with shipping was $26.
Speaking of my buddy Rex, I went to visit him over the Labor Day holiday and we experimented with the different set-ups. We thought that the 24V battery sounded about 5-10% better than the 12V. Now if you are using 4 ohm speakers, the 12v might be better. Since one battery was 12v and the other was 24v, we did not hook two amps up. But we did hook up two amps with the AC power supplies, and to my surprise, that sounded the best. The way I understand on that, it has to do with thermal limiting on the amps. The sound was smoother and more open. I want to try that on my system, but do not hold your breath. My power here is very dirty in the town I live in, and battery will probably win.
I am hoping we can get the tour amps back on the road later this week.
From my experience the amp has a different presentation on the stock power supply versus running on battery. There may be situations where the stock PS is preferred. I did run my PS after an Audio Magic Mini Reference power conditioner, and that may be a contributing factor to the performance I got from it. With that being said, i would love to hear the amp on a linear power supply as well. The point of my post is that there may be instances where the amp shines with the stock PS.
I don't know if I mentioned this previously. But there is a friend I know who has one of these amps, and he has gotten positive results with filling the battery chamber with ESR paper. Apparently the noise floor drops a degree with this option. Just putting that out there for someone to consider.
Regards
Mister Pig
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From my experience the amp has a different presentation on the stock power supply versus running on battery. There may be situations where the stock PS is preferred. I did run my PS after an Audio Magic Mini Reference power conditioner, and that may be a contributing factor to the performance I got from it. With that being said, i would love to hear the amp on a linear power supply as well. The point of my post is that there may be instances where the amp shines with the stock PS.
I don't know if I mentioned this previously. But there is a friend I know who has one of these amps, and he has gotten positive results with filling the battery chamber with ESR paper. Apparently the noise floor drops a degree with this option. Just putting that out there for someone to consider.
Regards
Mister Pig
Mister Pig, I can also report that the sonic character of the TBI changes significantly when used as two mono amps. The AC power source seems to work better when it it only pushing one channel vice two channels. Since my speakers are only 88db/w (albeit a easy load), they really woke up and became alive when a second amp was inserted in mono. I think it sounds better on AC with mono than a single amp on the battery. I do have the AC plugged into a line conditioner, which seems to help a bit as well.
Jan is working on a power conditioner to work with either battery or AC, so I'm excited to see where this leads. For now, holding off on getting a second battery setup.
I also think a linear PS would work well, and perhaps even better in a mono setup.
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Anyone compared 2 monos running on AC supply vs 2 monos running on battery
I think the AC supply running through power conditioning is a very important factor for it working well
Quiet a few posts back I had asked the same thing (running AC PS through power conditioning) and will it work but i got a negative reply
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Anyone compared 2 monos running on AC supply vs 2 monos running on battery
I think the AC supply running through power conditioning is a very important factor for it working well
Quiet a few posts back I had asked the same thing (running AC PS through power conditioning) and will it work but i got a negative reply
I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere. It surely will work, but there still is AC as the power source, filtered through the UPS. Not the same as directly off a battery.
I don't think anyone has posted yet about mono usage with batteries at 24 volts. I would think it would be even better than the AC source, although I would think one hits the laws of diminishing returns.
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I will try and get two amps and batteies hooked up ASAP.
I found an interesting discussion tonight on Youtube from Harry Pearson at 2009 RMAF about AC interference. Harry says that Enid Lumley fist complained about AC interference 30 years ago in The Absolute Sound and everyone thought she was crazy, maybe she had lived in my home town
Harry also talks about the advantages of batteries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA-5fn0Iu8k
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:wink:
Keep in mind there is single conversion and double conversion circuitry in UPS design. Double conversion albeit much more expensive has the battery in the circuit design full time. Remember AC to DC and DC to AC not AC going away and DC coming on line. Double conversion has power conditioning (battery) in series with load!
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I've tried battery amp and source, but could hear no advantage (other AC members said the same about the source). I've heard power abberations, but fully believe its a local phenom.
Seems like we're drifting from the "Giant Killer" concept to 4 components and twice the money with lots of fuss.
BTW, is there still a tour? Whats the status?
Has the train left the station or ran off the rails?
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The tour has resuned with the new Cardas RCA mods and fresh batteries. Chris should receive the amp tomorrow or the next.
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For those who have or are auditioning the TBI, I would recommend trying it out with a tube preamp if you have one available, or can get your hands on one. My good buddy just got through building a Conrad Johnson clone, and asked me if I would try it out for him. He makes some outstanding amps and preamps , and uses only the highest quality parts.
It needs to break in, but I can report that after a few hours of use with the TBI amps, the sound has taken on a more natural sound character. If I had one minor quibble (and I do mean minor), it was that the Pass Labs X 2.5 with the TBI was almost too analytical. The CJ clone with the TBI does not sound overly analytical, but still sounds detailed. There is ever so slight less attention called to the detail, and the tonal presentation is just a bit more natural. I think there is something to the whole tubes/class D combination.
I'll post more once the preamp breaks in a bit, and put up a couple of pics of the unit in the Lab circle. It looks great, and build quality is first rate.
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There is a new cable review at Positive Feedback by John Hoffman, and he uses the TBI Millenia as the test amp. Remember, if you are on tour and wanting to compare cables, this little TBI is a great reference tester.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue63/wireworld.htm
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OK I'm sold!
Now I have to go and explain to "she who must be obeyed" that the fantastic best sounding amp that I now own HAS to be replaced! :o :roll: :green: 8)
Tom I don't know if I should curse you out or buy you dinner?
All kidding aside this little bugger is one very special piece of musical gear.
The first thing I noticed was pitch perfect tonal quality of acoustic instruments, then dynamics kicked in, and lastly the pace and rhythm is so eloquently portrayed. I'm a big fan of acoustic guitar, acoustic jazz, piano, and bass. The tonal quality that this amp has is impeccable. I'm not a very good writer and can't stand the standard cliche audio verbage that is so over used and missplaced. But this dinky little $500.00 battery powered amp has almost forced me to think of words like kills, stomps, slayes, crushes, and out performs amps costing 10 times more! Oops I guess I just did write those things . :D
I've been listening to live studio, closed mic studio, and live concert recordings and can't get enough how good and intoxicating the sound is. I had only gotten through half of the demo tracks cause I just kept listening to the complete disc and thought why change it this stuff sounds good!
This amp picks up where the Altmann amp leaves off. The Altmann was clean and tonal, but after a while sounded kinda flat in the dynamics area. The MG3 adds that next level in dynamics and dare I say a 3D soundstage. Cassandra Wilson's voice on Robert Johnsons' "Come On In My Kitchen" (Blue light Till Dawn) has a sultry, bluesy, and hot sweaty seductive nature to it. By the time the track ended I swear the humidity and temperature was raised in the room and I was in Mississippi about come on in her kitchen. :green: The MG3 does have the ability to connect and bring the listener emotionally into the music. Very engaging!
About a year ago I sold off most of my old system due to a financial need. The gear was custom built Audio Note Kits Dac and Preamp, as well as a highly modified Antique Sound Labs 300b amp. My speakers were Medallion 2 BLH with Lowther DX4 drivers. I kept my 47 Labs Flatfish transport and battery power supply. My system now consists of the Flatfish, Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0., MSB Digital Director, Virtual Mode SS Amp, DNM HFTN IC's, DNM Stereo Speaker Wire, and Shelby+Kroll Nano Monitors with matching Woofer Monitors.
As you can see I had a very good SET Full Range Horn system and have a pretty good idea of what the SET Tube sound is. With the MG3 in place I feel ,no... know, that I'm back there in that magical sweet SET domain. The amp connected me to the music and brought out the delicate nuances that can take you deep into an artists soul. I hope to someday pick one (or two for mono use) up and have it be the backbone of my system.
Tom, sharing this little gem with the AC community is an awesome thing.
I can't thank you enough for including me in your tour,
Chris
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Very nice review, Chris. 8)
Don't color it, tell us how you really feel! :lol:
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Hey, I tell it like it is. :D
Oops almost forgot my Demo List:
Various tracks from all below except where noted:
Miles Davis...Kind Of Blue
Cassandra Wilson..Blue Light Till Dawn
Tommy Emmanuel...Center Stage
Ray Brown...Walk On
Dave Grusin...Homage To Duke
Earl Klugh...Solo Guitar
Chris Tomlin...Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone) from the Amazing Grace Sound Track
Peter Gabriel...Scratch My Back
Eagles...Hell Freezes Over
Nils Lofgren...Acoustic Live
Janis Ian...Breaking Silence
Rusted Root...When I Woke
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Thank you Chris for joining the tour. Chris was the first to try the amp with the new Cardas RCA mods. It sounds like they are working great.
rklein should have the amp now, so watch for a review after this weekend.
If anyone is curious about batteries and how to hook them up, here are two great sites to watch and read.
http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0139.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Mqn6Ewvio
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rklein's music server went down this week and unfortunately he could not get the server back up to listen to the TBI. He was very disappointed.
He might be shipping the amp out tomorrow, Gopher is up next.
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damn, that's a bummer, I was looking forward to Rklein.
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I recieved the TBI and have had it up and playing or about 20 minutes now. I will admit this is a definite overachiever for the money. My system consists of a Bolder modified SB Touch feeding a Metrum Octave going to the TBI which is then going to Zu Def 2 speakers with upgraded nanotech drivers... Wywires Silver series cables tie everything together.
It is less forward and voices are less palpable then my Melody AN211 SET amp and it doesn't seem to capture the texture and delicacy quite as well, nor do I have the same tonal saturation and image density, but keeping the cost in perspective, its really good. I will almost definitely be building a buddy a budget system with this as the amplification.
Its very resolved, balanced and seemingly pretty musically engaging. More to come as I spend more time with it.
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Nice observations, Gopher. :thumb:
The performance with the TBI is improved when using as monoblocks. There is better dynamics, less distortion, and subtle complexties are brought out more. Although it does add cost, it still is pretty reasonable by audio standards.
Looking forward to reading more of your observations.
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I wonder how it would compare to this:
http://www.templeaudio.co.uk/bantamgold.html
or this bridged monoblock version:
http://www.templeaudio.co.uk/monoblock.html
TNT did a review too....they seem similar and price is about the same in dollars, or even a bit cheaper.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/bantam_gold_e.html
I do have the Bantam Gold, but have only ever used it in my secondary bedroom system (tried with various bookshelf speakers like Davis Dufy, Vintage Celestions and finally some small Yamahas) It all sounds great, but I never did any critical listening and its all fed by a stock SB Touch. I will try them with the newly acquired Oskar Heil Aulos speakers later on and also probably try it in the main system one of these days. Main amp is a modded NAD SS integrated..
The TBI sounds very intriguing and is perhaps cut from the same cloth. The designer of the Bantam is a retired UK radar engineer.
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Has anyone heard this and a Red Wine Audio integrated? Wondering how they compare (if they compare at all, I realize there is a $1000 difference in price). Debating on saving up for a used red wine integrated or going with this.
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I spent a few days with the TBI and its not a bad piece for the coin, but ultimately it wouldn't satisfy me long or even really mid term. Its just lacking too much weight, texture and emotion. My speakers are extremely revealing and perhaps more appropriate matches for the TBI would be a lot gentler on it, but its not quite there.
If lean, clean and highly resolved is your thing, this amp can please you, but my 211 SET has spoiled me.
Tom,
I really appreciate the loaner and will get it back to you this coming week---probably tuesday on account of the holiday monday.
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electriceye,
I have RWA Signature 15 (in my opinion top of Vinnie work for the money) but have now waiting for costume build from Vinnie's big brothers monos. I was one of the guy's who have TBI home for test drive. I did not mention nothing about RWA in my review because price differential. I did feel that is not fair, but if you ask me I prefer RWA over TBI in seconds. I'm sure that other story is TBI after modifications, but that is now with price close to RWA. But as I always say: All is depending from your system synergy and your music preference. I know that my review is hard to read, but that was before this side was update. I have hard time to posted my thoughts. Now is much better.
Cheers Ritchie
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Tom is putting this amp out there (literally - thanks!) as a giant killer, so I plan on making an unfair comparison when it gets here (which will be when?).
The most useful comparisons will be against known pieces. Mine will be Channel Island Audio D-100's (Dusty's original modded Hypex based monoblocks with beefy power supplies).
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The title of the thread is "modern day giant killer" so it would seem only logical that it would be compared to giants...What is wrong with comparing it to amps that cost 4-5 times as much? If it only bests other amps at its price point, it can hardly be called a giant killer.
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The TBI on the battery does indeed compare well with amps costing several times more. It is one of a very few Class D offerings that I have found to sound musical as opposed to harsh/offensive. The vast majority of Class D amps I have heard do not sound all that good with my speakers.
Remember, synergy is always in play here. It is intended for usage in low wattage situations, where it (generally) sounds excellent. For those folks who wish to get the SET sound without having to worry about dodgy Chinese output tubes, this is a good option for consideration.
This amp is certainly not for everyone. For example, if the speaker is current hungry, this may not be the best option. I tried it with a 93db/w speaker, and while it sounded good, it was not an optimum match for it, as the speaker has eight drivers per side (including 3 10” woofers). However, when it was hooked it up to the high input (120 Hz and higher), it performed great.
Lastly, using two TBI amps in mono elevates performance to a higher level. Even if you have two amps, the cost is still very reasonable by audiophile standards.
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Thanks Gopher for joining the tour and your opinion.
I currently have an $8800 GIANT SET amp in house, but the TBI is the one I listen to the most. I am currently using the Rethm Maargas, AMR DP77 Dac/Pre, and the $2400 Rethm cables and IC's, a very revealing $17K system with the TBI amp. Rex has owned a lot of SET amps, OTL amps, and Class A amps including the First Watt F2. We both listen to the TBI the most.
Rex and I had the experience to hear the Ncores on tour, but the TBI had more transparency, more holographic imaging, bigger soundstage, and more emotion than the Ncores had in our systems. I never expected 100% of the tour members to agree with me, no amp in the world will ever get 100% approval because of system synergy. Synergy is the key to every system, I agree with Freo-1.
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The TBI on the battery does indeed compare well with amps costing several times more. It is one of a very few Class D offerings that I have found to sound musical as opposed to harsh/offensive. The vast majority of Class D amps I have heard do not sound all that good with my speakers.
Why qualify it? How does it compare to Pass, ML, Atmosphere, etc.?
Remember, synergy is always in play here. It is intended for usage in low wattage situations, where it (generally) sounds excellent. For those folks who wish to get the SET sound without having to worry about dodgy Chinese output tubes, this is a good option for consideration.
Could you expound a bit on "the SET sound"?
[/quote]
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Rex and I had the experience to hear the Ncores on tour, but the TBI had more transparency, more holographic imaging, bigger soundstage, and more emotion than the Ncores had in our systems. I never expected 100% of the tour members to agree with me, no amp in the world will ever get 100% approval because of system synergy. Synergy is the key to every system, I agree with Freo-1.
Not sure what the ncore has to do with anything here....
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As a fan of Nelson Pass gear for many years, I can state that the TBI compares very favorably with amps such as a Threshold 400A, SA/3, XA 30.5, and First Watt M2 with the right set of speakers. That is, a speaker that provides a non challenging load of sufficient efficency.
I am reasonably sure most AC members have a pretty good idea of what SET sound is. SET amps are a simple design that often has little or zero feedback, and generally sound more natural than a Class A/B or the vast majority of Class D.
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Not sure what the ncore has to do with anything here....
Sorry about that, I had been reading in the Hypex thread that the Ncores was a giant killer.
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The criticism of this amp is unwarranted. No product is loved universally and the TBi seems to compare favorably with several more expensive amps. It's funny but there is a big thread on this site generally praising another well regarded amp. Occasionally someone prefers another amp and all of the fanboys are quick to point out systemsynergy, compatibility or personal preference. It is interesting some people are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to this amp.
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Well, FWIW Tom seems to have some hugely anamolous power conditions at his house that preclude anything but battery power. Must not watch much tv :lol: I kid. Any AC powered amp it seems makes him run out of the room in less than five minutes. :thumb:
There are a few with Ncores on this tour that will compare. Anand is one. I will be comparing them on my extremely easy to drive 8ohm GR monitors.
My hunch though, being as this is class D versus class D, not a pretend SET amp versus class D, that the claim of "more tranparent" etc, is, by the numbers alone, a physical impossibility. "Emotion" is largely subjective. We'll see.
If I do like this amp though I might pick one up for a headphone amp or system 2.
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The criticism of this amp is unwarranted. No product is loved universally and the TBi seems to compare favorably with several more expensive amps. It's funny but there is a big thread on this site generally praising another well regarded amp. Occasionally someone prefers another amp and all of the fanboys are quick to point out systemsynergy, compatibility or personal preference. It is interesting some people are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to this amp.
Well stated. This audio passion is a hobby after all (and a very subjective one at that). The purpose of this thread is to alert AC members of a low powered amp that gets very close to high end performance without the high end price. We are always looking for these kind of products for both ourselves or our friends.
As stated earlier, it's not for everyone, as one needs the right speakers to employ this successfully.
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I haven't criticized the amp at all, just said that if it is being called a giant killer, then compare it to giants....
Isn't that simply logical?
No need for anyone to get defensive....
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Well, FWIW Tom seems to have some hugely anamolous power conditions at his house that preclude anything but battery power. Must not watch much tv :lol: I kid. Any AC powered amp it seems makes him run out of the room in less than five minutes. :thumb:
There are a few with Ncores on this tour that will compare. Anand is one. I will be comparing them on my extremely easy to drive 8ohm GR monitors.
My hunch though, being as this is class D versus class D, not a pretend SET amp versus class D, that the claim of "more tranparent" etc, is, by the numbers alone, a physical impossibility. "Emotion" is largely subjective. We'll see.
If I do like this amp though I might pick one up for a headphone amp or system 2.
Keep in mind that the topology is completely different between the TBI and almost any other Class D, from the input processing, to output filtering. Almost all Class D amps employ a high amount of negative feedback to get it's distortion numbers so low. The TBI does not. They will sound different within the power ranges.
So, it is possible (based on topology differences) for the TBI to present a open, transparent sound.
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Where does it take the feedback from- post or pre output filter? How does the frequency response look versus load? We already have been told the distortion levels are set like....
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We have more room in this amp tour if you don't mind joining in the rear. You can see for yourself if it will work in your system or not.
The next listener, poseidenvoice, has asked to be dropped to the rear due to seasonal viral ear infections that has been going on in his area. None of this equipment will sound great with clogged ears.
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Thanks for the generous offer but it doesn't have enough output for my system.....
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Where does it take the feedback from- post or pre output filter? How does the frequency response look versus load? We already have been told the distortion levels are set like....
Read the positive feedback review to get a high level overview. For a more detailed explanation, contact Mr. Jan Plummer directly. I have found him very supportive regarding answering any questions one may have.
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Anyone else wants to join the tour?
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Sure! If they get back to Missouri I'd like to hear them on my Lowthers. Let me know if that is OK.
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Sure! If they get back to Missouri I'd like to hear them on my Lowthers. Let me know if that is OK.
Hi neighbor, will do.
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Anyone else wants to join the tour?
I would like to try it with my V1s if possible. I am in the Louisville KY area.
Thanks,
Ed
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Interesting how this thread has evolved, and it has touched on one of my pet peeve subjects...the use of the term giant killer. If an audio component can conceivably slay the giants in the hi fi world, then it is in itself a giant right? But somehow this term has become established in hi fi jargon, and in the past has gotten over used. So at best some people equate its use with optimistic zeal, or at worst borderline fraud. I try to stay clear of the term.
One of the hardest things to accomplish is relate what we hear from an audio system into the written word, for it is difficult to convey what our senses experience to those who can only read about the event. Which leads to this idea that the Millenia is SET like, and what does that mean, furthermore what kind of confusion and ambiguity does it create? I do not believe that the Millenia was designed to mimic the presentation of a SET amplifier, but to be the best possible product it can be at the price point it resides at. In my mind, the ultimate goal of reproducing music as realistically as possible is the final arbiter of performance for the Millenia, and comparing it to other products is just one limited way we can tell others about how we think the amp performs. So take that SET like comment with a grain of salt, and understand the limitations of what information it can convey.
The Millenia has a low noise floor, which allows it to excel at low level detail and spatial presentation, especially on battery power. These attributes, especially when coupled with a lack of grunge from power supply or AC mains noise is what gives it a SET like quality. But each component in the market place is distinctive, and has its own group of limitations and strengths. When compared to my 300B based SET amplifier, the tube amp has a greater degree of harmonic texture and density, but it should seeing as how it costs several times more than the TBI. But this is with a system with other components that have been selected for this amp, which is an advantage that any other "home team" is going to have on the Millenia tour. I have had a chance to rotate in a few pieces and accessories that were beter mated for the Millenia, and was able to get improvements in sound quality.
If you are after that SET sound, I find that cabling does make a incremental but important difference. In my system I find that the TBI likes a cable that is full bodied and slightly romantic, which maximises the amplifiers ability to convey that harmonic texture. So far Cardas and WireWorld have worked well with it, as has the VH Audio products. I think cables from Vampire, Alpha Core speaker wire, Straightwire , and others should do a good job with it. I suspect most silver and hybrid wires would could have issues, but only way to know it....well is to try it.
The other aspect to remember is that all of this is being evaluated through speakers, and each speaker system is distinct in its personality. Most SET people use high efficiency speakers of some sort, whether it be single drivers or horns. While the Millenia does not need 94db+ in efficiency, these HE speakers have a personality that is distinct, just like any other speaker, and this combination of speaker and cabling can show the Millenia to be superb, or just ho hum. I have been able to make it sound either way in my system. Now those people who use a more conventional speaker system have more leeway in choosing the voicing of the speaker to match with this amp. This would also make the choice of cabling a bit easier, since there is more latitude in voicing. In short, this is a discussion of system synergy....hate that word too...but its a good descriptor for this point.
Is the Millenia the contemporary of a $5000 amplifier? In a system that is optimised for this amp. it is possible that it can be within spitting distance. That is very strong praise for a $500 amp that is coupled with a $100 of battery pack. I have not heard the amp with upgraded connectors, so it may be possible to gain a bit more sound quality from this amp. But from my perspective, this is an incredible product for someone getting into this hobby, or with a limited audio kitty, and just building a system. With proper associated components you can get musical reproduction that will make a multi thousand dollar system look like poor purchase. Will it give you the ultimate level of sound quality? Probably not, but it will come close enough that many people will just not care.
I enjoy listening to the Millenia amplifier, I think it is a watershed product at its price point. I think there is more performance that I can coax out of it with proper component matching. What is cool about this tour is that people are using the amp with speakers and front end products that can show what it can achieve. For most buyers of $500 amplifiers are not going to give it $5K worth of front end or speaker. So the amplifiers abilities are never fully realised.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Anyone else wants to join the tour?
If she ever makes it to the west coast I would be interested :thumb:.
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Has anyone bought one from the seller on amazon who has it at 400? Seller doesn't have any feedback so It's a bit risky maybe. I would like to join a tour but guessing I wouldn't qualify as I'm a new member, understandable. I'm in Iowa.
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Tom sells them, should be able to hook you up.
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This thread sure reads like an infomercial. :|
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I asked before if the OP was selling these and my post was removed....If he is, don't the rules specify he identify himself as an industry participant?
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Interesting how this thread has evolved, and it has touched on one of my pet peeve subjects...the use of the term giant killer. If an audio component can conceivably slay the giants in the hi fi world, then it is in itself a giant right? But somehow this term has become established in hi fi jargon, and in the past has gotten over used. So at best some people equate its use with optimistic zeal, or at worst borderline fraud. I try to stay clear of the term.
One of the hardest things to accomplish is relate what we hear from an audio system into the written word, for it is difficult to convey what our senses experience to those who can only read about the event. Which leads to this idea that the Millenia is SET like, and what does that mean, furthermore what kind of confusion and ambiguity does it create? I do not believe that the Millenia was designed to mimic the presentation of a SET amplifier, but to be the best possible product it can be at the price point it resides at. In my mind, the ultimate goal of reproducing music as realistically as possible is the final arbiter of performance for the Millenia, and comparing it to other products is just one limited way we can tell others about how we think the amp performs. So take that SET like comment with a grain of salt, and understand the limitations of what information it can convey.
The Millenia has a low noise floor, which allows it to excel at low level detail and spatial presentation, especially on battery power. These attributes, especially when coupled with a lack of grunge from power supply or AC mains noise is what gives it a SET like quality. But each component in the market place is distinctive, and has its own group of limitations and strengths. When compared to my 300B based SET amplifier, the tube amp has a greater degree of harmonic texture and density, but it should seeing as how it costs several times more than the TBI. But this is with a system with other components that have been selected for this amp, which is an advantage that any other "home team" is going to have on the Millenia tour. I have had a chance to rotate in a few pieces and accessories that were beter mated for the Millenia, and was able to get improvements in sound quality.
If you are after that SET sound, I find that cabling does make a incremental but important difference. In my system I find that the TBI likes a cable that is full bodied and slightly romantic, which maximises the amplifiers ability to convey that harmonic texture. So far Cardas and WireWorld have worked well with it, as has the VH Audio products. I think cables from Vampire, Alpha Core speaker wire, Straightwire , and others should do a good job with it. I suspect most silver and hybrid wires would could have issues, but only way to know it....well is to try it.
The other aspect to remember is that all of this is being evaluated through speakers, and each speaker system is distinct in its personality. Most SET people use high efficiency speakers of some sort, whether it be single drivers or horns. While the Millenia does not need 94db+ in efficiency, these HE speakers have a personality that is distinct, just like any other speaker, and this combination of speaker and cabling can show the Millenia to be superb, or just ho hum. I have been able to make it sound either way in my system. Now those people who use a more conventional speaker system have more leeway in choosing the voicing of the speaker to match with this amp. This would also make the choice of cabling a bit easier, since there is more latitude in voicing. In short, this is a discussion of system synergy....hate that word too...but its a good descriptor for this point.
Is the Millenia the contemporary of a $5000 amplifier? In a system that is optimised for this amp. it is possible that it can be within spitting distance. That is very strong praise for a $500 amp that is coupled with a $100 of battery pack. I have not heard the amp with upgraded connectors, so it may be possible to gain a bit more sound quality from this amp. But from my perspective, this is an incredible product for someone getting into this hobby, or with a limited audio kitty, and just building a system. With proper associated components you can get musical reproduction that will make a multi thousand dollar system look like poor purchase. Will it give you the ultimate level of sound quality? Probably not, but it will come close enough that many people will just not care.
I enjoy listening to the Millenia amplifier, I think it is a watershed product at its price point. I think there is more performance that I can coax out of it with proper component matching. What is cool about this tour is that people are using the amp with speakers and front end products that can show what it can achieve. For most buyers of $500 amplifiers are not going to give it $5K worth of front end or speaker. So the amplifiers abilities are never fully realised.
Regards
Mister Pig
Thank you for your thoughful observations. I think these thoughts accurately capture the intent of the thread, which is to alert AC members and guests about the TBI amp. Nothing more, nothing less.
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It doesn't take a tour organized by the OP, who may be selling these, to alert ac members and guests about the TBI amp.
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The tour allows people who otherwise would have no knowledge of the product to try it out.
Given my past prejudices regarding Class D amps in general, I would have never even bothered to try it. The topology is pretty unique within the Class D arena, so it does sound different. It is designed primarily for low wattage applications.
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I'm well aware of the purpose of a tour. That isn't the issue. If the OP is selling these he should declare himself upfront as a dealer.
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This amp is available at TBI Sound for $500.
http://www.tbisound.com/dsp_products_millenia.asp
There is a very recent factory update on the power supply and the factory is the only one that has it. I would highly recommend to buy the amp direct from them to get this new update. It will be worth your while.
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The tour allows people who otherwise would have no knowledge of the product to try it out.
Given my past prejudices regarding Class D amps in general, I would have never even bothered to try it. The topology is pretty unique within the Class D arena, so it does sound different. It is designed primarily for low wattage applications.
To be honest though, Arion and Temple both can make the same claim about unique topology. It is the final result that matters...ie, how it sounds and that is what makes the tour interesting (at least for U guys in the US).
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Tom is very generous to be sending out his amp for us all to try and we should be grateful. My bad for stirring something up, I thought it was known that Tom has a small business selling this stuff, he was listed as a IP in other threads. I don't think Tom is expecting to make a fortune off two or three amps sold from this.
I don't think the users other than Tom who have reported on the amp have been duped in any way, so it must be a nice little amp.
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For those who just have to know, this is my business. I make custom frames for 12-14 hours, seven days a week. Now when I retire in 5 years, I would like to go back to selling audio again. But to sell audio again, I will have to take a major pay-cut from my framing business. Custom made picture frames is something that every household in the world needs, but not high-end audio.
http://stores.ebay.com/Custom-Framing-Factory-Outlet
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To be honest though, Arion and Temple both can make the same claim about unique topology. It is the final result that matters...ie, how it sounds and that is what makes the tour interesting (at least for U guys in the US).
I agree that in the final analysis, it’s a given products performance that matters. The topology for the TBI is different enough from a standard Class D that it avoids most of the shortfalls associated with Class D amps (and most of them have a lot of shortfalls, IMHO).
For example, the input volume circuit is an impedance matching network, It sports a new breed of op-amp OPA2889), along with a chip setup that provides a lower distortion performance and improved linearity over discrete components. In general, I HATE op-amps, (and go way out of my way to avoid them), BUT, this one in this amp works very well.
There is a modification to the power supply circuit recently developed by the team at TBI that is designed to elevate the performance from the AC supply to equal or better that from a SLA battery source. My amps have been upgraded by Mr. Plummer at TBI, and I'll be posting the observations from this modification in another thread that will be focused on modifications to the TBI in general, and provide emphasis/details on this update.
Going back to Mister Pig's observations, the tour is allowing the amp to be used with components that normally would not be employed with the amp given the amps price point. The fact that the amp performing this well with such components speaks very well for its performance
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roscoeiii should be receiving the TBI Millenia amp tomorrow or the next. Then it will head out west to rclark.
There was a rave review of the Dayens Ampino in this month's Stereotimes. But Rex and I both agree, the TBI is quite a bit better than the Ampino.
http://stereotimes.com/amp101112a.shtml
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But the question is begged... Is it a Giant Killer? We haven't seen that comparison yet. The Ncore, since it has been brought up, has proved to be in that arena of amp. What about the TBI?
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But the question is begged... Is it a Giant Killer? We haven't seen that comparison yet. The Ncore, since it has been brought up, has proved to be in that arena of amp. What about the TBI?
You will soon find out. :thumb:
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I'm well aware of the purpose of a tour. That isn't the issue. If the OP is selling these he should declare himself upfront as a dealer.
I give you credit for waiting 15 pages before peeing on the thread - athough you tested the waters earlier. Appreciate the restraint it took!
And who cares about the Ncore? What in the world does it have to to with the TBI. I wasn't aware the Ncore cult owned the trademark for 'giant killer'. Sheez. How about just celebrating the fact that all kinds of Class D are catching up to the old stalwarts of tubes and solid state in sound quality. I mean it's good to have choices, right?
Right?
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Well, you've seen (if you read the diyaudio thread) the Nc400 being compared to not just $5000 amps but $20,000 amps like Accuphase, and other like amps.. Clayton. Atma-Sphere. I've seen people sell very expensive amps to run them. It could very well be called a giant killer, and is.
Now, the very title of this thread is "Giant Killer" but all we've seen so far is maybe a Pass SS amp and the allusion that it is like running a decently priced SET amp. I'm just hoping we get to see the epic battle with a giant that we've been waiting for.
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Well, you've seen (if you read the diyaudio thread) the Nc400 being compared to not just $5000 amps but $20,000 amps like Accuphase, and other like amps.. Clayton. Atma-Sphere. I've seen people sell very expensive amps to run them. It could very well be called a giant killer, and is.
Now, the very title of this thread is "Giant Killer" but all we've seen so far is maybe a Pass SS amp and the allusion that it is like running a decently priced SET amp. I'm just hoping we get to see the epic battle with a giant that we've been waiting for.
The same comparisons have been done with the Classdaudio.com amps many on this very forum with $5k, $8k, $10k amps - but those are supposed to be inferior peasants to the Ncore, right?
Look the Ncores sound like a phenomenal amp, I look forward to hearing them someday but their is no need, none, to have a p*ssing contest. It's unnecessary. Come on, we're grown people here. I suggest a separate thread for 'Ncore vs TBI' or whatever because otherwise this thread will just tank.
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You're missing my point rather well.
I didn't bring the Ncore up, it was already brought up. The Ncore has stood up to scrutiny. I'm just wondering if anyone has the sort of equipment that can be referred to as "giant" in this tour, or has anyone heard the TBI in such company? Since we have elected to call the TBI a giant killer, it would be neat to count the number of titans slain. That's all.
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You're missing my point rather well.
I'm not sure that's possible. Are we going to waste time deciding if someone's gear qualifies as GK now? Are we going to have an inquiry? Is someone going to ask next if the TBI's *literally* slain a giant and what were the exact dimensions of said giant? I'm interested in reading people's feedback not keeping score.
Meh. Hamster wheel. Have at.
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touche. But still, the thread title isn't "a pretty good amp." It's "gk!", nearly in all caps too. Where's the beef, that's all.
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touche. But still, the thread title isn't "a pretty good amp." It's "gk!", nearly in all caps too. Where's the beef, that's all.
Like I said, you will soon find out. You are second up on the tour now.
I am getting my amp updated this week. Rex has had his updated for a week or so. Rex told me the other night that after all of these years and all the amps that he has ever bought and all the money that he has ever spent, he now has the amp that he always has been looking for.
And Rex has probably owned as many amps as anyone else here has ever owned. 5 SET amps, 12 AB tube amps, 4 OTL amps, and numerous Class A and Class AB SS amps. He will vouch that this amp is a giant killer, better than any SET or OTL amp that he has ever owned.
This last power supply mod has taken this amp way over the top. Now you don't need a battery to get the best result. The mod is now on the tour amp, and you rclark are going to get to hear it.
Unless you want to drop out of the tour.
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I just got my amps back last night from TBI with the power supply mods. At first blush, I would say that the amp's performance has further increased by 20 to 25% with the update. I'll be starting another thread about modifications of the TBI in general, and the power supply mod specifically.
I'll refrain from hyperbole, but I would highly encourage owners of the amp to get this power supply update. I would also recommend this amp be auditioned, and one can judge for themselves.
Keep this in mind: It works BEST with low wattage setups. If your speakers are less efficient, then two amps are required to get the best performance.
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The speakers that Rex and I have tried this amp on is the following. Anthony Gallo Classico 3 and 4's, Gallo Strada's, Tonian TL-D1's, and Rethm Trishna's. The Classico 3 and 4's will go down to a 4 ohm load, but they have no crossovers. The 3's are 88db efficiency, the TBI plays them loud enough for me. But I would never run this amp with Magnepans or Acoustats, too in-efficient and complicated load.
All of these speakers are very revealing and somewhat efficient.
Rclark, do remember that your Maggies are a power hungry speaker and that Tom does preclude them as a bad match for this amp. Keeping your power needs to the TBI wattage rating will help for a fair comparison.
Hey lets face it...If you have a speaker that demands an amp with a lot of head room (Maggies, Acustats, B&W 801, 800's, etc) the TBI will probably not be a good match. I believe the wattage rating is somewhere around 30w and will sound its best on a speaker that will work well in that wattage range.
FWIW I have been fortunate to listen to many good amps in my system, Pass 30A, First Watt f5, ATC SIA 150, and my current amp Virtual Mode Power Pac 1. None of these amps engaged me to the music like the TBI did! 8) I was sucked in like Clinton to an inturn and moved and grooved to the music in a way that I hadn't in years!
Enjoy,
Chris
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Yep, if everyone in the world owned Maggies, there would never be any need for amps like the TBI, SET amps, low powered Class AB tube amps, or the Pass First Watt amps.
But then that would make this hobby very boring. :(
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touche. But still, the thread title isn't "a pretty good amp." It's "gk!", nearly in all caps too. Where's the beef, that's all.
Not all GKs are available in the US: Feast your eyes on these monsters from Rowen...much cheaper than DartZeel, also from Switzerland:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/suisse2010/2.html
I'd seen Swiss electronics/speaker firm Rowen last year but never understood just why I'd never come across them anywhere prior to moving to Switzerland. They only sell in this country. That also explains their pricing which for apparent build quality and features seems very reasonable given that nothing is outsourced. "Our customers are essentially our dealers so we've eliminated one layer of middlemen" explained the owner's son and vice director Pascal Aebischer. They also run import firm Dynavox to bring into Switzerland and Germany NAD, PSB, Myryad and Dali. "If we did export with Rowen, we'd have to raise our domestic prices to match. This we did not want so we only sell domestically."
While this admittedly does leave out the majority of our international readers, how about a dual-mono amplifier which delivers 65 watts into 8 ohms and one kilowatt into 0.5 ohms; can be bridged to 240 which into half an ohm then nets 3.500 watts; and sells for CHF 6.490? Now add that it is fully balanced, avoids all feedback and offers a negative output impedance to eliminate cable interactions. Say hello to the Absolute One at lower left.
Rowen's very best preamp with massive top-class Mundorf capacitors sells for CHF 4.990. Hmm. Here too a personal visit to the facilities seemed called for to investigate this unusual business model closer.
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I would like to try it with my V1s if possible. I am in the Louisville KY area.
Thanks,
Ed
I'm in Knoxville, TN. I wouldn't mind being added to the list. Since Ed is not too far away from me, that might work smoothly.
Tom, Didn't you have a Virtue Audio Sensation int. amp w/ Dodd tube buffer & battery? Any comparison to the TBI Millenia MG3 that you could comment on ? Drop me a message if it needs to be offline.
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I'm interested in this amp and excited to try it in my rig. My current set-up sounds pretty good :thumb: this AM.
Mac Mini-->Audiphileo2-->metrum Octave-->allnic L-3000-->Art Audio Px-25-->Zu Definition mk III's.
I'm in San Francisco if anyone nearby wants to come over and help me evaluate the amp when it arrives, just PM me.
I have had a Pass XA 30.5, Coincident Frankenstein, Decware Torii, and many others pass through here in the last few years........(those along with the PX-25 were my favorites).
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I'm interested in this amp and excited to try it in my rig. My current set-up sounds pretty good :thumb: this AM.
Mac Mini-->Audiphileo2-->metrum Octave-->allnic L-3000-->Art Audio Px-25-->Zu Definition mk III's.
I'm in San Francisco if anyone nearby wants to come over and help me evaluate the amp when it arrives, just PM me.
I have had a Pass XA 30.5, Coincident Frankenstein, Decware Torii, and many others pass through here in the last few years........(those along with the PX-25 were my favorites).
I'll be interested in your findings with the same source and practically the same speakers as I evaluated it with...
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@ Tom, no hell yes I wanna try it, if it's good should make a nice headphone amp. @ Wisnon, those look pretty cool, I'll read more about them later. @ Rodge, I've got 8ohm monitors to test the amp with. Not power hungry.
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@ Tom, no hell yes I wanna try it, if it's good should make a nice headphone amp. @ Wisnon, those look pretty cool, I'll read more about them later. @ Rodge, I've got 8ohm monitors to test the amp with. Not power hungry.
www.rowen.ch for more details.
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@ Rodge, I've got 8ohm monitors to test the amp with. Not power hungry.
Cool :D
What brand ?
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I built these as my first speaker :lol:
http://gr-research.com/insigniaupgrade.aspx
With the Virtue they scream so 35 watts is plenty. I ran them for a month, got mmg's and never looked back. The only time I listened to them since was in a shootout I had with the GR N1X, and they fared well, surprisingly, and actually had a nicer midrange than the N, which should bode well for testing the TBI.
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Very nice :thumb:
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Yeah that kit really teaches you the value of crossover type and parts quality, and enclosure quality, and controlling resonances, etc. Quite a large upgrade, huge actually.
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roscoeiii recveived the tour amp today.
So far, Rex and Freo-1 has said that this power supply mod has made the amp on AC sound 20-25% better than the previous tour amp did on battery. That is a significant improvement when you talk about mods in this hobby.
I will receive mine tomorrow. I cannot wait. :D
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I'll be interested in your findings with the same source and practically the same speakers as I evaluated it with...
Sure thing Gopher :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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roscoeiii recveived the tour amp today.
So far, Rex and Freo-1 has said that this power supply mod has made the amp on AC sound 20-25% better than the previous tour amp did on battery. That is a significant improvement when you talk about mods in this hobby.
I will receive mine tomorrow. I cannot wait. :D
Hi Tom,
Who does the Mod and what is the cost?
Thanks,
Morgan
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Hi Tom,
Who does the Mod and what is the cost?
Thanks,
Morgan
Check out the following thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110713.msg1143809;topicseen#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110713.msg1143809;topicseen#new)
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After spending three evenings with my updated amp, I have some good news amd possibly some bad news. So the tour members might want to read this and be warned.
The battery side of the amp is very slightly improved over the previous tour amp, but the AC section has been improved by leaps and bounds. The AC is now better with more depth and even a bigger soundstage because of the improvement of the transparency. Holographic imaging has further improved with the AC. On some recordings, I am now in the middle of the soundstage. Now how did that happen? :scratch:
But that means the amp is now so transparent and revealing, you might want to use it with warmer sounding cables and IC's, copper and no silver. If anything in your system is bright sounding, this amp will not conceal it on AC.
Now more bad news. If your AC is not good enough, like mine, you will easily hear the AC glare that I complain about in every AC amp that I have ever owned here in the last 30 years. But if that happens during the day, just switch it to battery and the glare will disappear. If I wait until late at night, my AC glare will disappear also.
I guess in a way, this is now like owning two amps in one. If you want the ultimate in detail and transparency, use the AC. If you want the softer more rounded sound, use the battery. Either way, this amp now sounds wonderful.
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Is it possible to be added to the end of the tour list? I have a decware mini torii amp I would like to put it up against...driving tekton lore speakers. Mark in Pa.
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I guess in a way, this is now like owning two amps in one. If you want the ultimate in detail and transparency, use the AC. If you want the softer more rounded sound, use the battery. Either way, this amp now sounds wonderful.
Well, Tom....which one is, then, the Giant Killer? Are both Giant Killers or the one with improved AC PS is a Killer of a former Giant Killer? :scratch: Seriously, both cannot be right in terms of getting closer to reproduce the "ultimate absolute sound" ...that is, if we believe this is the objective. Otherwise, we are just dealing with different preferences regarding shades or flavors of sonic "ice cream" and, accordingly, we can perfectly love more than one flavor....and other people may perfectly well love other or similar flavor (s) of a more expensive ice cream...and we all have fun eating our favorite flavors (and, perhaps, nothing is really being killed) :thumb:
In any event, based on your posted observations, if you use your improved AC PS Millenia with a power regenerator unit (like I do, as I mentioned before, with my stock Millenia --no AC PS upgrade yet), then, I am sure you will be using yours on AC power all day.
Cheers......................Mario
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I am all ears Nario. What power regenerator unit are you using? I have tried many power conditioners in the past and they all constricted the tansparency, soundstage and dynamics here at my place.
Get your amp modded, you will be amazed.
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Wyred 4 Sound does this with their STP-SE preamp...I wonder if this principle is similar to what the poster meant when speaking of power regeneration.
When they say passive, they mean as in no gain. We all know that all passive preamps have many issues regarding input and output impedances because of the lack of drive current. The result is a loose, floppy bottom end, and a constricted, dry top end. To solve this, they inserted their Ultra-transparent discrete buffer stages to address this issue. With a 25A Schottky bridge rectifier connected through 164,560+uF of capacitance in their proprietary Triple-Ripple-Reduction power supply circuit, the STP preamp has more capacitance than some amplifiers! By the time power reserves supply the audio chain with power, there is no hint of noise left. 2 stages of filtering by high-end Nichicon Bi-polar MUSE audio grade capacitors
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Well I got the Millenia amplifier with power supply upgrades the other day. I got it hooked up to some secondary gear right now, and am in the process of breaking it in. I found that the first amplifier settled in nicely at the 50 hour mark, so I am going to give this amp 50 hours and see what occurs. Looking forward to these listening sessions, as I also have the first version of the amplifier on hand to compare against.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Very cool, Mister Pig. 8)
Looking forward to reading your observations.
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I am all ears Nario. What power regenerator unit are you using? I have tried many power conditioners in the past and they all constricted the tansparency, soundstage and dynamics here at my place.
Get your amp modded, you will be amazed.
Tom, this is what I said in Reply#96:
Quote from: OzarkTom on 7 Aug 2012, 12:03 pm
Here is a good source on power supplies. Jan at TBI says that this is the place they use.
http://www.batteryspace.com/
The only problem with using an AC power supply with this amp, it is so revealing that battery will probably win out every time.
Unquote
You are absolutely right OT. That is always the case with extremely revealing components (as I learned from my long experience in the search of the best phono stage), unless one goes the power regeneration route which is what I eventually did (I own three quality units from reputable manufacturers serving my three systems: 1 from PS Audio and 2 from Pure Power). Although seemingly expensive, as one continuously improve all components in one's system(s), constantly adding ever more revealing pieces, the need/desire/quest for the best battery power supply possible--for each one of those revealing components—at the end, implies an even more expensive proposition (not to mention the cost/chore of replacing and disposing all those batteries). Of course, quality AC power supplies in the components are a must to begin with so that the regenerated power can fully show its virtues.
Mario
The PS Audio is a P5 Power Plant and the PurePower ones are APS PurePower models 2000 &1050. These are AC regenerators, not just power conditioners. They basically reconstruct the AC to a noisless, perfect sine wave (for a detailed explanation, look up web pages for PS Audio Power Plants and/or APS PurePower). My problem was not so much line noise but a clipped AC sine wave due to a faulty street transformer (I had the power quality analysed by the utility but they refused to change the transformer...a bit costly and because the utility's service contract does not guarantee perfect sine wave, plus I happened to be the only one with a problem). The clipped sine wave was causing mechanical vibration in all the many large transformers in my two main sytems (six SET mono blocks, to start with, 4 in a bi-amped system and two in a single amp sytem). I thought it was DC in the AC line but that was not the case. The power regeneration units cleaned up completely the problem with no side effects that I have been able to detect. No need to elaborate on actual/subective sonic benefit, suffice it to say that units perform as claimed. The Millenia is connected to the PurePower 1050 which serves my desktop computer installation. The Millenia is woderfully powering a pair of PSB Imagine Minis (used with a REL T 5 sub). Look forward to get it upgraded...in fact, although it does not appear to be necessary in a near field situation, I am considering implementing Freo-1's two amp approach (I gather, based on more watts per channel when only one channel is being used, thus, increasing head room and sound quality during heavy musical passages).
All the best,
Mario
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I have spent several hours listening to the MG3 with the updated power supply, and made comparisons to the previous version, and my SET amplifier. What I found is that this revision for the AC power side is a significant improvement over the earlier amplifier. On the positive side, I find that there is improved harmonic texture,music flows better, and has a nice tonal balance. There is a significant improvement in front to back depth compared to the first generation amplifier. Compared to my Electra Print amplifier, it still has a degree of foreshortening to the sound stage, but it is pretty minimal. In many respects the amplifiers are more similar than different. Given the significant price differences, I would be hard pressed to spend the money on the tube amp, for they are so close.
Now the thing to remember is that my speakers are selected for low power tube amps, less than 13 wpc. If my system were to be built around the Millenia, I would choose a different speaker. I think a good two way speaker with medium efficiency and benign crossover would be ideal for this amp. Perhaps a pair of Eminent Technology LFT16, a pair of VMPS 626JR, or GR Research Neo 2X. Perhaps a good floorstander from PSB, KEF, Spendor, or ProAc would also be candidates.
This point is kind of important. In my system i got the best sound quality with my Sachiko Double Horn speakers by running the amp straight to the wall. This arrangement came close to my SET, and worked the best. When running the amp off my Audio Magic Mini Reference power conditioner the presentation became rich and lush, with an overall darkening of the tonal balance. Now if I had a multi driver speaker system this presentation could be ideal, as the amplifier would appreciate a speaker with a bit more top end than the Fostex 208 Sigma driver can provide. So what it really comes down to is system optimisation, and what speaker mates well with this amp. I do know that it is good enough to deserve a quality speaker system that costs a lot more than the MG3. I also discovered that using a ZU Audio Mission power cable did not make significant improvements to the sound, but there was an incremental increase in sound quality. Probably not worth the cash outlay for an expensive power cord, but might benefit from a modest one.
When comparing the new amp hooked to the wall to battery power, I ended up liking the AC arrangement just a touch better. The overall tonal balance was very close, with the battery arrangement being just a touch lighter and more delicate. However I found that the AC set up had better harmonic texture, easier to hear micro dynamic contrasts, and the music just sounded slightly more cohesive. Both presentations were very close, and I could see a person preferring AC in one system set up, and another preferring battery in another set up. But the amp does sound different, and its overall sound can be manipulated if that is what is required. Either way, the amp lacks any significant degree of grain or harshness, and this is remarkable for what it sells for.
What I can say is this Millenia is an outstanding product, and worth every dollar it sells for. I have no doubt that a satisfying audio system can be built around this amp, and for a very affordable price. I do plan on hooking up a few set of monitor/bookshelf speakers and see what comes about. I would say buy one, its hard to go wrong. Just be sure to give it good quality associated equipment, for it deserves it...and will reward you with excellent music reproduction.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Thank you for an informed and detailed update, Mister Pig. Very well stated.
This upgrade surely improves the amp's overall performance, as Mr. Plummer intended. This really preforms at a much higher level than it's price point would suggest.
My one caveat is: If your system tends to be a bit on the bright side, then this may make your system TOO bright. Careful attention must be paid to overall matching with this amp. With the right source and speakers, real magic will be in your listening space. The amp is VERY revealing of the overall system's playback capabilities.
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Well written review Mr. Pig, and I agree 100%.
The speakers I would love to hear this amp on is the Quad 57's or 63's. Anyone out there that owns either want to be on the tour?
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Well written review Mr. Pig, and I agree 100%.
The speakers I would love to hear this amp on is the Quad 57's or 63's. Anyone out there that owns either want to be on the tour?
That would be excellent to pair the TBI up with Quad 57/63. My instincts tell me that this would be a near perfect match.
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That would be excellent to pair the TBI up with Quad 57/63. My instincts tell me that this would be a near perfect match.
Hmmmm,
Pity I am not in the US! This seems like a great amp to try out.
One review of my speaker likens it to the Quad 63 in the High Freq. See except below:
Ivor Humphreys Hi-FiNews JANUARY 2005
.............'Polite' is a word that too easily damns with faint praise, and in the first few moments of listening to these speakers I did wonder if it was appropriate in just that way. This is a sound not unlike that of the Quad ESL-63 - so clean and seamless in the HF as to seem almost subdued, until you realise that what is missing is the artificial edge imparted by so many conventional tweeters, even today.
..........This aria for soprano, flute, lute, continuo and strings has all that is required to worry a mid/HF driver but the AMT conveyed it with a seamless grace, separating the bow on string noise from the notes themselves, responding to the 'chuff' start of each note on the baroque flute, the finger-work on the lute and to the fine, sibilant detail in the voice. There was nothing in this presentation for the ear to query. It was convincing in every regard.
......Here the Syrinx was conspicuously successful in its essentially 'tuneful' low frequencies, Beethoven's crucial double-bass lines appropriately purposeful and natural sounding at any pitch, and remarkably free of resonant boost.
.......Again the Syrinx gave an excellent account of itself, realising the full compass and weight of the instrument, detailing Debussy's subtle tonal inflections exquisitely, maintaining the delicate harmonic structure of sustained chords as they fade towards silence, true to the bright top end of the Steinway and entirely equal to the dynamic requirements and percussive nature of the louder passagework. Few speakers, certainly of this modest size, do all this quite so convincingly.
Rock and pop retains its propulsive attack, the sound being crisp and responsive. The plethora of busy, studio-contrived positional detail with which so many of the familiar hi-fi show demo favourites claim our attention, was always stable and true.
The Syrinx is an extremely rewarding, essentially musical speaker......... Ivor Humphreys Hi-FiNews JANUARY 2005
HI-FiNews verdict:
A loudspeaker with a capable, well-defined and exceptionally refined sound. What's more, it's well made nicely presented and has a modestly-sized cabinet.
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Looks like I get to play with this on Monday. Should get my Ncores then too.
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Back in the mid 80's, the killer combo was the Musical Fidelity A1 and Quad 57's. I floored many audiophiles when I let them hear that combo in my audio shop back then. These amps sold for $375 back then, they still sell for about that nuch on Ebay or even more like this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Musical-Fidelity-A1-integrated-amplifier-/110960608077?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item19d5c4834d&nma=true&si=WSyHkbQmpp4wdaBRga5Su9AlEbg%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
But the TBI is much more open and holographic sounding than the A1. It would be cool to show up in one of these audio shows using the Quads and this TBI amp as a reference system.
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My curiosity got the best of me early in the week. I decided to write the company on how on earth did they get the AC sound better than the battery. I always found the battery to be better. This is what Jan Plummer wrote me.
"This is a better quality swiching supply than most so I was able to flatten the ESR with those film caps over the full audio range. I went through quite an array of potential types of bypass caps that would work in conjunction with the stable low frequency regulation of the wall wart. The amp now has electrolytic, ceramic and film bypass caps. The AC supply is extremely well regulated for low frequency response. The voltage does not change however it loses its integrity above 100 Hz. Capacitors have a sound as batteries and these films are the most neutral I have found and the only ones of proper dimensions for this value. The two apacitors in parallel are better for ESR profile than a single large one.
This combination of the special film caps and damping resistor creates a linear non peaked ESR response from the AC supply that remains in place.The fact that we have only one voltage creates an inherent equality for both channels when applying this upgrade. Channel seperation is also greatly improved providing enhanced soundstaging and depth.
The battery is fairly well regulated for low frequencies (depends on AH) however its high frequency response is relatively poor and not constant with frequency. Different batteries will sound different. The battery also receives a benefit in high frequency control but again the batteries contribution to ESR varies with discharge and battery type."
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Quote "This is a better quality swiching supply than most so I was able to flatten the ESR with those film caps over the full audio range. I went through quite an array of potential types of bypass caps that would work in conjunction with the stable low frequency regulation of the wall wart. The amp now has electrolytic, ceramic and film bypass caps. The AC supply is extremely well regulated for low frequency response. The voltage does not change however it loses its integrity above 100 Hz. Capacitors have a sound as batteries and these films are the most neutral I have found and the only ones of proper dimensions for this value. The two apacitors in parallel are better for ESR profile than a single large one.
Unquote
Thanks to Tom for starting this thread and i am checking on it every day fro the past few months.
I have the evaluation board with the same chip and have been playing with the power supply also. My conclusion is very similiar to the above.
I filter a 20 V smps laptop power supply by russian made paper in oil and ordinary motor start film caps also. However, on the board power supply caps near to the chip , the use of ceramic caps is highly recommended. Film do not work very well in my set up in this location.
With this set up, i prefer it to two 12 v SLA wired in series.
kp93300
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Wait, so a high quality switching power supply sounds better than the batteries?
Huh.
Never would have guessed. :green:
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I got this amp in today and was totally looking forward to listening to it. I haven't wired up my monitors since the N1X demo a few months ago, feels like ages now. Cool to see them on my sand filled Sanus UF-27's. But the amp isn't working. I pulled it from the packaging and put it into the system but it's not coming on :/
I've emailed Tom, hopefully it's some simple thing I've overlooked, but none of the PS's seem to awaken it... :scratch:
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Sounds like the 4A fast blow fuse went. Stop at the local Rat Shack and get a replacement.
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I hope it's something like that, I'll open it up right now and look.
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there's one screw on there so damn tight I can't get it off to see. Frustrating. Tommorrow.
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Wait, so a high quality switching power supply sounds better than the batteries?
Huh.
Never would have guessed. :green:
There is no rule that says a SMPS is bad...If well designed it can beat a comparable linear PSU.
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Wait, so a high quality switching power supply sounds better than the batteries?
Huh.
Never would have guessed. :green:
Me neither... :duh:
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There is no rule that says a SMPS is bad...If well designed it can beat a comparable linear PSU.
I was making that case early on in the thread based on my own observations but it didn't go over so well...
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I hope it's something like that, I'll open it up right now and look.
A couple of items:
1) The fuse will blow if you hook up the battery and have the charger plugged in at the same time. It will also blow if you leave the charger in the loop, regardless of wheather it is plugged in or not.
2) After charging the battery, disconnect the charger from the cabling. Allow the battery to settle for a minute before plugging in the amp.
As long as you follow the above, the amp will work fine. The fuse is designed to protect the amp from any abuse, and it works well.
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I have batteries on my Virtue, same identical setup, same charger, I'm familiar with that.
- it was doing this with the AC supply, which is the first one I tried.. light on, no sound, then no light. Tried the other supplies, same thing, now, no light.
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When the light was on, was it blue or red?
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red
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Red means that the incoming voltage was too high. The fuse is popped, no question.
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(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001427.jpg)
looks like that one on the right is blown, right?
The holder for it on the board says it takes a 4A 125 volt fuse. You can see the gold one, it was a 250 volt fuse :scratch:
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Do you have a meter? If not, I would buy a replacement 4A fast blow 125V from ye old Rat Shack. The other fuse is for the internal battery. It should be 125V 2A. That one looks too big.
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Yeah, did you see my edit? It looks like the wrong size fuse was in there. Heading to Radio shack for a couple fuses.
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OK. I should have suggested fuses be included in the amp (regular fuses). I take it you know which fuse is which?
Here is some more information on the amp:
" The light will only be red if it is operating on internal batteries or for a few seconds if you disconnect the power supply while the power switch is on. If the fuse blows due to overvoltage, the DC voltage on the amplifier side is immediately shorted to ground so no light. "
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The holder for it on the board says it takes a 4A 125 volt fuse. You can see the gold one, it was a 250 volt fuse :scratch:
Yeah, did you see my edit? It looks like the wrong size fuse was in there. Heading to Radio shack for a couple fuses.
The Amp rating (4A) and type (fast blow vs. slow blow) is all that matters. The voltage rating is only a maximum voltage rating. The majority of replacement fuses you will find will have a 250V maximum rating.
Steve
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The 250V fuses are not the same size. The amp needs the same form/function replacement. (125V 4A fast, 125V 2A fast).
One other note:
If the main supply fuse blows due to voltage problems, then 8 cheap alkaline batteries will still operate the amplifier unless it has been damaged by other means. The batteries are also fused but this fuse won't blow if the main supply is rendered inoperative due to its fuse. The DC plug must be removed from the amplifier for the internal batteries to work. "
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I have batteries on my Virtue, same identical setup, same charger, I'm familiar with that.
- it was doing this with the AC supply, which is the first one I tried.. light on, no sound, then no light. Tried the other supplies, same thing, now, no light.
But with the Virtue, you can play the amp with the charger hooked up to the battery, but you cannot on the TBI. The 25v that is on that charger blows that fuse in the TBI out every time.
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Blue Light :thumb:
Time to get it in the system and boogie.
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Blue Light :thumb:
Time to get it in the system and boogie.
That's more like it. Let us know how you make out.
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So far, very very pleasant sounding. I have it in the living room with my monitors and 10" ported sub, watching tv. I'll move it into my 2 channel system tonight. My initial impressions: precise, deep, holographic. Back in a week. :)
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Alright everything's in my room and ready to go. Look forward to swapping the modded Two.2 in and out all week. Right here from the outset though, in terms of build quality and looks, the Two.2 is like the hottest of hottest supermodels, the coolest, sleekest supercar, and the Millennia is like a russian bag lady or Volkswagen Thing. That's just side by side. On its own the Millennia is alright but it's downright ugly as sin next to the Virtue. I never realized how good looking the Virtue amp is until now. Sleek and made by an artist. Minimal, and flushed screws. Fine finish. Chrome. The Millennia has all the visual and tactile appeal of a low end Best Buy internet router, by comparison. The Virtue is also even smaller and more compact, and yet still more powerful. That's alright, because my expectation is the Millenia is supposed to sound better according to Tom. Ultimately that's all that matters. Perhaps I will find in this comparison that all the costs went into the sonics.
Pics to come.
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Alright everything's in my room and ready to go. Look forward to swapping the modded Two.2 in and out all week. Right here from the outset though, in terms of build quality and looks, the Two.2 is like the hottest of hottest supermodels, the coolest, sleekest supercar, and the Millennia is like a russian bag lady or Volkswagen Thing. That's just side by side. On its own the Millennia is alright but it's downright ugly as sin next to the Virtue. I never realized how good looking the Virtue amp is until now. Sleek and made by an artist. Minimal, and flushed screws. Fine finish. Chrome. The Millennia has all the visual and tactile appeal of a low end Best Buy internet router, by comparison. The Virtue is also even smaller and more compact, and yet still more powerful. That's alright, because my expectation is the Millenia is supposed to sound better according to Tom. Ultimately that's all that matters. Perhaps I will find in this comparison that all the costs went into the sonics.
Pics to come.
:scratch:
Since when are we here to compare cosmetics? Like I said in my first post here, if the looks bother you, just hide it behind another big amp like a Krell.
The Ncores that you bought are very plain-jane compared to a used $1500 Krell, Classe, or Rowland amp. I don't see you compaining about that.
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Alright everything's in my room and ready to go. Look forward to swapping the modded Two.2 in and out all week. Right here from the outset though, in terms of build quality and looks, the Two.2 is like the hottest of hottest supermodels, the coolest, sleekest supercar, and the Millennia is like a russian bag lady or Volkswagen Thing. That's just side by side. On its own the Millennia is alright but it's downright ugly as sin next to the Virtue. I never realized how good looking the Virtue amp is until now. Sleek and made by an artist. Minimal, and flushed screws. Fine finish. Chrome. The Millennia has all the visual and tactile appeal of a low end Best Buy internet router, by comparison. The Virtue is also even smaller and more compact, and yet still more powerful. That's alright, because my expectation is the Millenia is supposed to sound better according to Tom. Ultimately that's all that matters. Perhaps I will find in this comparison that all the costs went into the sonics.
Pics to come.
Do you listen with your eyes open or closed mostly?
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Many people have their audio equipment as the centerpiece in a room and want it to look nice. That is just another part of the gear's performance and what many manufacturers clearly understand. To each his own.
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Many people have their audio equipment as the centerpiece in a room and want it to look nice. That is just another part of the gear's performance and what many manufacturers clearly understand. To each his own.
Get iinnovative, this amp would easily be a candidate for a DIY project for different looks and designs, whether it be wood or metal. I have seen some really cool designs on the Ncore thread.
A friend of mine is currently working on a wood cabinet for me, since I prefer wood anyway.
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Cosmetics are important to many, but Tom did raise a good point bringing up the Ncore IMO. People will naturally feel that a nicer looking amp will have better build quality and thus will sound better. Others, like myself, may feel that skimping on cosmetics can be a good way to invest more into better sound quality hence why DIY is an interest to a lot of us.
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The differences in build quality, internally, are even starker. The Virtue also boasts a subwoofer out, the Millenia does not. However, the Millenia would make a nice camping integrated as it takes AA batteries. But the build quality internally is drastically different between the two. I'm starting to wonder how Virtue did it? Very nice. I will do some ab/ing tomorrow.
So far it's been rough having to go from my Maggie's to my monitors, but I'm starting to believe the Millennia has enough juice to pull it off if I bring them back in.
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The differences in build quality, internally, are even starker. The Virtue also boasts a subwoofer out, the Millenia does not. However, the Millenia would make a nice camping integrated as it takes AA batteries. But the build quality internally is drastically different between the two. I'm starting to wonder how Virtue did it? Very nice. I will do some ab/ing tomorrow.
So far it's been rough having to go from my Maggie's to my monitors, but I'm starting to believe the Millennia has enough juice to pull it off if I bring them back in.
Pictures please....
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I'll snap some pics tonight. The only reason I bring it up is both amps are roughly same price range, same features, preamp, similar power output, vastly different buildouts.
I will say that the Sonics are the most important thing and it's doing nicely there. Need to let it settle before I can compare though.
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Cosmetics are important to many, but Tom did raise a good point bringing up the Ncore IMO. People will naturally feel that a nicer looking amp will have better build quality and thus will sound better. Others, like myself, may feel that skimping on cosmetics can be a good way to invest more into better sound quality hence why DIY is an interest to a lot of us.
Amen to that. This Conrad Johnson clone sounds awesome, with better parts and circuit board than a real C/J provides. Not as fancy, looking, but a great match for the TBI's (and it sounds better, too).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68148)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68181)
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I just took pics, and the difference between the amp parts on the Millennia and the Virtue is quite something to see. The Virtue is a very substantial amp, there are large quality caps, a lot going on under the hood, every space possible is filled, fine aluminum case work. The Millennia is a few small boards... and that's it :scratch:
It's sounding nice so far on the monitors but I think when I put the Virtue back on there in a couple days... my expectation was this Millennia would be a very high end little amp, but it doesn't look so under the hood, it's literally just a couple little PCB's and nothing else. the Virtue looks like a cost no object design by comparison.
I just took pics and am uploading all of it.
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I just took pics, and the difference between the amp parts on the Millennia and the Virtue is quite something to see. The Virtue is a very substantial amp, there are large quality caps, a lot going on under the hood, every space possible is filled, fine aluminum case work. The Millennia is a few small boards... and that's it :scratch:
It's sounding nice so far on the monitors but I think when I put the Virtue back on there in a couple days... my expectation was this Millennia would be a very high end little amp, but it doesn't look so under the hood, it's literally just a couple little PCB's and nothing else. the Virtue looks like a cost no object design by comparison.
I just took pics and am uploading all of it.
Listen with your ears, not your eyes. To me, all types of Class D amps look puny and unsubstantial compared to a large Class A type amp. What counts is how it sounds. The TBI is the only Class D amp I have heard to date that did not make me reach for the off switch.
Forget how it looks, and just listen to it for a few days. Hide it behind your speaker so you don't see it. Just leave it on with AC and let it play, and see what you think of the sound. You may or may not like it. It may be a bit challenged with the Maggies.
With my 88db/w Carys, mono operation really opened it up to its full potential.
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No I like it, it sounds nice, it's just interesting having a very similar design to compare it to. Either way, hands down, the Virtue wins on fit and finish, build quality, not even close.
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Freo
I recognized some of the parts in the Conrad Johnson clone. :wink:
:thumb:
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Freo
I recognized some of the parts in the Conrad Johnson clone. ;)
:thumb:
Cheers, Mate! 8)
I'm very happy with it, especially since installing NOS Mullard CV 4004 Box Plates. They sound slightly better than Telefunkens in my rig (blasphemy, I know, but hey, it is what it is) :lol:
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(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001444.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001443.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001433.jpg)
This third cell phone picture says it best. It's like Stonehenge versus Wall Mart. In real life, the differences are even more apparent that these pics. Cheap, plasticky, or meant to be displayed in a fine home (which mine is not), heavy, chromed knob against cheap plastic dial..
The exteriors, textured paint, textured aluminum on the Virtue, and your choice of customization.
I have a red case, I also have a custom wooden knob for the Virtue. The exterior of the Millennia is that cheap black plastic that made me think Best Buy Internet router, or some other cheap device.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001441.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001445.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001446.jpg)
These pics show the clean setup on the Virtue, with the inovative, Nintendo-like propellor connectors, the quality stock, unmodified connections (THESE CONNECTORS ON THE MILLENNIA ARE AFTERMARKET), and the included subwoofer out... The 4 flush mounted, hex chassis screws versus the cacaphony of exposed screws on the back of the Millennia... The smaller and more compact size...
The TbI is warty and ugly by comparison. Those aftermarket connectors aside, which are nice... but still not as nice as the stock Virtue propellor connectors.
Makes me want to see the Virtue 3!
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001447.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001450.jpg)
And that's it, all loosely fitted and insubstantial, looks like junk against....
...........
....
pow
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001452.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001451.jpg)
Solid Aluminum casing as a heat sink. Giant capacitance. quality quality quality...throughout!
Don't mind the hot glue there, that was from Jason during the customization of new caps.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_001454.jpg)
Look at this nice copper heat pipe here.Now mine is modded, those big blue caps are ClarityCap MR's, thank you Jason T.
Now off into the shootout. Tom wants me to compare the TBI to the Ncores as well, which will be here in two days.
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Nice pics. But proof is in the pudding/sound.
Internal shots of the TBI certainly don't detract from how good it sounded in my system compared to the much more expensive Rogue Stereo 90.
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And the venerable NC400 modules have none of the weighty parts so celebrated on that Virtue amp...you sure you purchased wisely, Rclark? Maybe you should have just stayed with the Virtue?
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I understand the situation.. and am listening..
But thing is, this is (the Virtue) a Tripath. So not that far off. Not like some dramatically different topology.
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But FWIW, going into this shootout, after seeing this internals of the Millennia, I'd feel ripped off if I spent more than $70 :o I mean come on it's a 35 watter and clearly built cheap as possible, regardless of how good the chip sounds.
Anyway I say Virtue Audio, modern day giant killer, too!
On to the listening tests.
(At least the Virtue has the balls to drive some Maggies... just sayin')
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And none of this is to say that it isn't commendable for Virtue to include such high quality parts. I do think that they likely extract as much a possible from the Tripath chip through these choices and their excellent ears in voicing these amps.
The question is if new technologies and implementations trump this excellent implementation of the Tripath in a particular system according to a certain listener's taste.
It should also be said more and more often that in so many cases, it is not a matter of BEST. But a matter of what works best for a certain person's preferences in a certain system.
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RClark,
Thank you for posting those photos and all of your props! You have a huge heart, my man!
Yes, building the Virtue ONE (it was originally called the "Audiophile.ONE") was a labor of love and prodigious amounts of patience, late nights, and expense. The casework is custom and the amp was designed with love, by ear, and with the goal of giving customers a "no-regret" purchase opportunity. I built it for me and others seemed to like it too. But what did I know? Not enough, apparently. We sold out and haven't been able to make a sequel for almost two years now. We'll be back in time and I hope that the next generation is as well received as the last.
Now vis a vis the TBI amp, Tom has an excellent ear and I have no doubt that it's as good as he says. And I'm sure that it's also a labor of love for Jan and his team. And if they charge $500 for it, maybe they can make some money and reinvest in production, and god-willing turn a profit. It's not easy for a small manufacturer to get everything perfect the first time, and not everyone can be expected to dump $50,000+ (up-front) into enclosure work like we did. At the time we were unknown and you gave Virtue the benefit of the doubt. I hope that you afford the same to TBI! I wish Jan and anyone eager enough to make anything you can touch, smell, and eat in this world -- an awful lot of support and encouragement. My day job is in the software industry and shipping bits isn't easy. But shipping atoms which do not break and come right back to you, is even harder.
Every manufacturer here counts on the kindness of you all to give our gear a try. Even if you don't like everything about it; give us a try. Give TBI a try. No product will satisfy everyone but you never know; it just might tug a heart-string. Everyone has different turn-ons and turn-offs.
Big hugs to you, my friends and customers: Tom and RClark.
Seth
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And I love Seth and his company of Virtue. I loved the Two.2 amp that I owned for a month, but traded back to Seth when the Sensation came out. Seth was great over that deal. If you think the Two.2 is built great, you ought to see the Sensation. That amp is built like a tank compared to the Two.2. My buddy Rex owned the Sensation 901. Then we both added the $300 Dodd tube buffer nods. Then Rex added the $200 Clarity cap mods. I owned the 451 amp and added the $200 Duelund Alexander mods on the high pass filter. We both added the $125 Dodd battery supply mods.
I had over $1300 in my Virtue Sensation 451 amp, Rex had about $1600 in his Sensation 901 amp. But after we both listened to the TBI in stock form, then listneed to the TBBI with the Cardas mods, Rex instantly sold his Virtue amp and I will sell mine if anyone here wants it. Rex and I both own low wattage systems, that is why I posted this amp in the low wattage threads.
The TBI MG3 is more transparent, bigger soundstage, and more holographic than the Virtue modded Sensation is. I nor Rex had never thought that was possible. We both loved our Virtue amps. My buddy Rex has said the TBI is the amp he has been looking for, for the last 40 yeas. I have to agree with him. Would we pay $2500 for this amp and this sound? If this is the only way we can get it, yes. Would we pay $5000 for this sound. Yes, but we would demand Jan and company to give us some more flash in the cosmetic dpartment. For the $4500 extra that this amp costs, I am sure Jan and company could easily afford to provide that.
I have owned and sold many of an Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Levinson, NYAL Futterman's, Counterpoint, PS Audio, Classe, Threshold, Rowland, Krell, and other big name SS and tube amps over the years. Those amps are all built like tanks and cost about that much also. As long as you own a low wattage system, I would stack the sound of this TBI amp with any of those tanks.
But I know that Maggies is not a low wattage speaker, but I imagine everyone else here knows that also. I have owned and sold many a used Maggies over the years. The Maggies can dip into the 2 ohm region in the bass, that is not good for the MG3. I warned rclark about this, but he asked to be included on this tour, so I did. I don't discriminate to no one, not even a Maggie owner.
Now if Seth and Virtue company can top this sound in my system, I would most definitely buy that amp tomorrow. Seth is a great friend and business owner to me. I love him dearly. I am sure the Tripath sound will keep improving under Seth and company, but for now, the TBI Classs BD amp beats the sound of any Tripath that I have ever heard. I have owned and still own several of them.
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:D
That's all well and good Tom and "Rex", whoever you are, we've sure heard a lot about you :green:, Rex, and that's your opinion, but so far I'm not hearing anything that is blowing my mind. It's okay, but I think when I swap my Virtue back in here in a couple days, I honestly don't know what to expect. Certainly not a dramatic loss in quality. It may be a lot better. I'll let my ears determine that.
The tiny Virtue will certainly be more powerful and have more headroom so that right there counts.
The only reason I don't know for sure, right now, is I'm using my monitors, which I haven't listened to for five months at least, when I was comparing to the N1x. So this is all fresh.
But my reaction right now is it's not some leap over the Virtue, not by any strech, if at all. It might be worse. AB'ing over the next few days will be fun. FYI tom, you might not have been aware of this, but the sensation was nothing more than a one or two with more inputs. That's it. And you had room for a tube buffer. That's it. The only difference. The Two.2 had all the high end parts as a 901, just not the same tube buffer option or amount of inputs. Otherwise same exact amp.
And in fact, I have all the fancy mods you do, save the tube, did you notice! :D Yep, same deal! See those pretty blue caps, you might recognize them. Otherwise, you had more inputs and a tube. That's it. No difference otherwise. Same exact topology.
The Two and the Sensation are basically the same exact, identical amp.
:D :thumb:
I'm open minded to this demo, back to listening. I'll put my Two in there over the weekend after I'm further settled in with this amp
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RClark,
Thank you for posting those photos and all of your props! You have a huge heart, my man!
Yes, building the Virtue ONE (it was originally called the "Audiophile.ONE") was a labor of love and prodigious amounts of patience, late nights, and expense. The casework is custom and the amp was designed with love, by ear, and with the goal of giving customers a "no-regret" purchase opportunity. I built it for me and others seemed to like it too. But what did I know? Not enough, apparently. We sold out and haven't been able to make a sequel for almost two years now. We'll be back in time and I hope that the next generation is as well received as the last.
Now vis a vis the TBI amp, Tom has an excellent ear and I have no doubt that it's as good as he says. And I'm sure that it's also a labor of love for Jan and his team. And if they charge $500 for it, maybe they can make some money and reinvest in production, and god-willing turn a profit. It's not easy for a small manufacturer to get everything perfect the first time, and not everyone can be expected to dump $50,000+ (up-front) into enclosure work like we did. At the time we were unknown and you gave Virtue the benefit of the doubt. I hope that you afford the same to TBI! I wish Jan and anyone eager enough to make anything you can touch, smell, and eat in this world -- an awful lot of support and encouragement. My day job is in the software industry and shipping bits isn't easy. But shipping atoms which do not break and come right back to you, is even harder.
Every manufacturer here counts on the kindness of you all to give our gear a try. Even if you don't like everything about it; give us a try. Give TBI a try. No product will satisfy everyone but you never know; it just might tug a heart-string. Everyone has different turn-ons and turn-offs.
Big hugs to you, my friends and customers: Tom and RClark.
Seth
What a classy post!
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RClark:
A few things:
1) Stop listening with your eyes, and listen with your ears! Your pics are a little misleading, as there is more electronincs inside the TBI not shown. Both amps are good bang for the buck.
2) The topology between the two is NOT the same. The TBI uses a completely different setup, from using the latest TI Op-amp in the input, to the output configuration/filtering stage. That's why it does not sound nasty like most class D/T setups do.
3) I am not sure the TBI is a good match for Maggies in stereo mode. It may work OK for mono. You will just have to see.
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And none of this is to say that it isn't commendable for Virtue to include such high quality parts. I do think that they likely extract as much a possible from the Tripath chip through these choices and their excellent ears in voicing these amps.
The question is if new technologies and implementations trump this excellent implementation of the Tripath in a particular system according to a certain listener's taste.
It should also be said more and more often that in so many cases, it is not a matter of BEST. But a matter of what works best for a certain person's preferences in a certain system.
Well stated. 8)
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Just make sure you are adjusting volume level to account for differences in gain. If not, the louder amp will usually sound more dynamic and throw off the results.
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What a classy post!
Seth is top class all the way. :thumb:
I agree with rclark 100% all the way on the build quality. Seth put higher quality parts in his amp and sold it factory direct. With a dealer network, the amp would have cost $850. I believe that Seth was very smart in this struggling economy, he knew that the sales would be very slow coming at $850 for the Two.2. And the Sensation 451 with tube buffer would have sold for $1600 through a dealer, while the Snsation 901 and tube buffer would have sold for $1900. So the smart thing to do, no dealers. More and more companies are starting to go this way, lower retail prices and sell factory direct. It gives the consumer more bang for your bucks, but it does not quarantee you to get the best sound.
Maybe rclark can help me sell my Virtue Sensation here. I haven't sold it due to loyalty to my friend Seth. And ever since the tube buffer was put in it, I never listened to the SS section. The tube side was always more musical and more magical. The Dueland Alexander caps I used are the highest rated on the market today, but these are so big, they would never fit in the Two.2.
If the Sensation was better, I would be using it. It is slightly more veiled and less holographic than the TBI. The TBI has given me the biggest soundstage that I have ever heard on my low wattage system.
But I have a lot of faith in Seth, I am sure that the next generation of the Virtue amps will sound better than the one I currently own.
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Yeah, the only reason I brought it up at all, was because it shocked me to see the differences. When you have the two next to each other, the Virtue seems highly underpriced. In fact, I think with the TBI you are paying entirely for the technology, and not at all for the hardware. And even then I suspect they are making quite a profit. It's entirely digital, weightless.
So far it seems to have a very pleasant, something I can't put my finger on yet. Listening to Them Crooked Vultures on the monitors, and it's very pleasantly textured.. but seems not very dynamic.
I'll be able to more accurately assess after I listen for a while longer, I'm going to listen all today, then choose an album to repeat a couple times, vary the volume, then pop the Virtue back in there.
Tommorrow I will do the same thing, but with the Ncores.
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vary the volume
Why? All comparison should be done at the same volume.
Tommorrow I will do the same thing, but with the Ncores.
....and wet yourself. :lol:
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So I can hear both high and low capability. I will use my meter of course.
And yes on that last point, I suspect you're right, even at low levels :thumb:
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So I can hear both high and low capability. I will use my meter of course.
I see. So you will do them independently; correct?
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Yes, listen at certain levels, single disc repeated, tune ears to certain "regions", take notes.
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Yeah, the only reason I brought it up at all, was because it shocked me to see the differences. When you have the two next to each other, the Virtue seems highly underpriced. In fact, I think with the TBI you are paying entirely for the technology, and not at all for the hardware. And even then I suspect they are making quite a profit. It's entirely digital, weightless.
So far it seems to have a very pleasant, something I can't put my finger on yet. Listening to Them Crooked Vultures on the monitors, and it's very pleasantly textured.. but seems not very dynamic.
I'll be able to more accurately assess after I listen for a while longer, I'm going to listen all today, then choose an album to repeat a couple times, vary the volume, then pop the Virtue back in there.
Tommorrow I will do the same thing, but with the Ncores.
Maybe so, but I am almost certain that the TBI chassis is metal not plastic. Please confirm!
Also, it my my understanding from designers that class D amp layout should be very tight and compact to deal with RFI noise, etc. Same thing applies to the acclaimed Bantam Gold in the UK. Using lavish, spread out class A/B electronics chip layouts is a big no-no consequently.
See the Gold's innards here: (http://www.templeaudio.net/images/gldpcbsmall.jpg)
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RClark:
A few things:
1) Your pics are a little misleading, as there is more electronincs inside the TBI not shown.
That's not true, As you can see I pulled it open, snapped shot, went inside, snapped shot. Unless there's some secret compartment in there, it's just those two little boards inside a cheap casing.
The ability to take AA batteries is commendable and thoughtful though.
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I understand the situation.. and am listening..
But thing is, this is (the Virtue) a Tripath. So not that far off. Not like some dramatically different topology.
Class D is a switching tech, like switching PSU, so mhz RFI interference will be an issue so classic class AB topology is not ideal. Back then this was less understood than today. I guess industries that use HF switching tech should serve as a guide?
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That's not true, As you can see I pulled it open, snapped shot, went inside, snapped shot. Unless there's some secret compartment in there, it's just those two little boards inside a cheap casing.
The ability to take AA batteries is commendable and thoughtful though.
Not exactly. Your pictures do not clearly show all the internals of the TBI. The Millenia is made of aluminum and its knob stays on without crazy glue.
Additionally, big pretty parts in Class D amplifiers mean they will radiate more RF inside and to the exterior environment. That is one of the major reasons most Class D amps sound harsh, flat, and 2D.
BTW, have you read the owners manual for the Virtue? It's full of cautions relative to blowing it up. Noises on the volume control with no solution as per the manual, etc. There are engineering reasons why the TBI is designed the way it is, all relating to sound quality, long term reliability, etc.
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haven't read it yet.
I get it though, it's class D, the Ncores are the same, they are just a switcher and an amp, and they do crazy good things, it's the future. Like I said before, you're paying for the technology in use, not so much the hardware on the TBI.
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haven't read it yet.
I get it though, it's class D, the Ncores are the same, they are just a switcher and an amp, and they do crazy good things, it's the future. Like I said before, you're paying for the technology in use, not so much the hardware on the TBI.
Yeah, it is so hard to believe how samll this Class D technolgy is today. When I look at those tiny 200 watt Ncore modules, I say no way could that ever be 200wpc. those Classdaudio circuits are so small also. Since the TBI is only 32wpc, there is harly anything inside. The circuits are so much smaller than other class solid state amps. I often wonfer why the amp sounds so good, mayne that is the reason.
Well rclark, since it obvious that you do not like the amp, should I go ahead and send you the next address tonight on the tour? I know that he is anxious to get the amp.
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So far it seems to have a very pleasant, something I can't put my finger on yet. Listening to Them Crooked Vultures on the monitors, and it's very pleasantly textured.. but seems not very dynamic.
Not dynamic enough? My wife will argue with you all day long on that statement. :o
We have a couple on the tour using the GR Research Super V's and the V2, we will see what they have to say about the dynamics. Since you are the first to bring that up on the tour, maybe everyone else just missed that problem.
I still have my Virtue amp that is loaded to bear for sale if anyone wants it. There are none to buy at Virtue.
But in my system of 99db, the TBI is so transparent and detailed, dynamics and speed is actually magnefied. Anyone that wants to come to my house and hear Eagles Hotel California on the Hell Freezes Over CD at ear splitting levels, come on over. :D
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It HAS to be as small as possible to sound as good as possible.
Class D is a paradigm shift and people need to wrap their heads around that!
BTW folks, I spoke to Rodge (Chris) and he is doing OK, but did have a LOT of property damage with the storm floods. He asked me to let you all know he is fine and hopefully his insurance will do what its there for and helphim rebuild his life in an orderly manner.
Also he was fortunate in that he managed to save his audio gear and golf clubs! LoL
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It HAS to be as small as possible to sound as good as possible.
Class D is a paradigm shift and people need to wrap their heads around that!
BTW folks, I spoke to Rodge (Chris) and he is doing OK, but did have a LOT of property damage with the storm floods. He asked me to let you all know he is fine and hopefully his insurance will do what its there for and helphim rebuild his life in an orderly manner.
Also he was fortunate in that he managed to save his audio gear and golf clubs! LoL
I was worried about Chris and all of the others that were here on the tour list in the Hurricane area. I hope the others will come on and speak up that they are OK, if they can get to a computer.
Occam (NY)
mytubes211 (NJ)
Ispec2 (Pa)
rodge827 (NJ)-OK
Gopher (NY)
lpost (PA)
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Oh poor Rodge, that sucks. Thumbs down on that whole ridiculous storm. I hope they are able to get underway smoothly.
Hey Wisnon, it looks like I'm at 90db efficiency. Not sure if the mod and replacement crossover designed by Danny Richie changes that at all. but 90dB. I just pm'd Danny to find out if it's different.
I can imagine this amp being a screamer with something more efficient, but here it seems to have a bit of a compressed presentation. It may just be the speakers, they are nothing like my planars...at all. Only using them because they're an easy 8ohm load for this amp.
I'll know more when I pop the Virtue back in.
Pro's so far: nice textures, black, quiet, precise. musical.
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Just finished watching Pat Metheny Way Up Live, and it's pretty hard to find any faults with this sort of material. Does a nice job with drums and the percussion effects in the large hall, very fast, precise, delicate. Very pleasant sounding overall. I'm going to have to attribute some of the compression to the less than ideal tweeter.
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On to cd's here in about an hour. My initial benchmark is Van Halen "Eruption"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti1BWGgdGL8
followed by Jimi Hendrix's Valleys of Neptune, full album, and then a test album full off acoustic guitar, opera, classical, bluegrass. Time to get into it.
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I have put the Virtue back into the system and am playing it on the monitors for the first time. Initial impressions: The Virtue looks over, pops its collar, and brushes off its shoulders, one at a time.
I'm not hearing a beaten amp. Different presentations though. The strong dynamic is back. That drive, that willingness to take the highest notes and really emphasise them. The TBI is almost too polite. Maybe not on 109dB speakers, but you kind of need those in order to rock off 35 watts, let's get real here. The Virtue is certainly more powerful, almost boisterous. Will take time to fully evaluate the differences.
Playing Miles Davis Kind of Blue through the Virtue and it is swinging pretty hard. The drums really sizzle and also just as delicate and precise, if not moreso.
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I have put the Virtue back into the system and am playing it on the monitors for the first time. Initial impressions: The Virtue looks over, pops its collar, and brushes off its shoulders, one at a time.
I'm not hearing a beaten amp. Different presentations though. The strong dynamic is back. That drive, that willingness to take the highest notes and really emphasise them. The TBI is almost too polite. Maybe not on 109dB speakers, but you kind of need those in order to rock off 35 watts, let's get real here. The Virtue is certainly more powerful, almost boisterous. Will take time to fully evaluate the differences.
Playing Miles Davis Kind of Blue through the Virtue and it is swinging pretty hard. The drums really sizzle and also just as delicate and precise, if not moreso.
Thanks for posting your thoughts/opinions to date. The thing that really jumps out to me are what you consider an asset to playback, based on your postings, I would not be happy with. Hence, this is why I always say “Horses for Courses”. J
I find the TBI at the hairy edge of acceptable brightness in the HF region. I do not find it polite at all. It’s very clean (which is remarkable for Class D, since many of them border on screeching with HF). I also find it very extended in the HF region (almost too extended). It took some time (and tube/cable swapping) to get it where it sounded neutral to me. I found that some recordings to be a great match for the TBI, while others were better served with the First Watt M2. Both amps are very enjoyable, but different rows of the Symphony Hall to be sure. The M2 is further recessed in the hall, while the TBI is in the front third. These observations are based on my system as a whole, and the speakers specifically. For example, the Cary Silver Oak Model Ones are very unforgiving of any component in the system that is not neutral. Too much emphasis in any one region will be exposed for what it is.
Based on your observation of the Virtue, I would be running for the OFF switch, and changing out the amp pronto. I HATE any piece of equipment that accentuates HF to the point of being etched. What you call sizzle I would call edgy and grainy. That’s why I generally try to run the audio signal through a tube somewhere in the chain, to reduce the glare that most solid state seems to convey. Neither set of observations are right nor wrong, just different, based on one’s preferences. I am coming to realize just how difficult it is to write an objective review on any piece of audio equipment.
So, what does it all mean?
At a macro level, it really does come down to personal tastes. When it comes to evaluation, it’s pretty much subjective, so one person’s “best component evea!” would be another’s ear bleeder, or dull and flat, as the case may be. It takes awhile to get a handle on our individual preferences, and once we sort them out, need to keep those in mind as we review a given piece of gear in our systems. Some reviewers (Occum comes to mind) does a great job explaining his preferences and overall sound when writing an evaluation on a given audio item. When he writes a review, I have a fair idea if I would like it or not, which is not the same as which is better. The term “better” is subjective at best, and is based on the entire system as a whole.
What is always helpful is posting all the equipment used in the evaluation, and some specifics about the speakers, such as efficiency, driver compliment, crossover (if known), etc.
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Here is my personal taste in listening preferences.
I like:
speakers to disappear, so big soundstage
holographic 3D imaging if possible
third row seating(my eyes are bad, so I always sit upfront at a concert)
vocals to be sharp and focused, but natural
instruments to be separated and focus
percussion instruments to sound natural
I dislike:
boomy bass, not a bass freak like I was when I was young
10th row or further back seating-again, bad eyes
brightness
AC glare-Gives me a severe headache and earache
crossovers-takes away dynamics and clarity in the vocals
My system consists of:
Rethm Maargas
AMR DP-777 Dac/Pre
TBI Millenia MG3 amp
Rethm cables
With this system, I have all the likes that I have ever wanted. I could easily take this system to my grave. :o
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You're missapplying my buzzwords. By sizzle I mean sounds live. Anyway, not finished listening. Plus mark in the TBI category, seems to have a blacker presentation, lower noise floor. There are some plusses for the TBI, it's nearly a wash between the two amps on SQ. I will be very specific when I write my final stuff.
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You're missapplying my buzzwords. By sizzle I mean sounds live. Anyway, not finished listening. Plus mark in the TBI category, seems to have a blacker presentation, lower noise floor. There are some plusses for the TBI, it's nearly a wash between the two amps on SQ. I will be very specific when I write my final stuff.
You have never been specific on what brands and models your ancillary equipment is that you are using? Dac? cd player? preamp? cables?
The TBI will show up any flaw in your system. It did in my $17K system.
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I think everyone here (I'm pretty sure you and I have talked extensively about that stuff :scratch: check our PM and email exchanges) is pretty familiar with what I am running, anyway, I'll certainly mention it all again in my final writeup.
Hey, I'm just curious, was any of that budget towards power? With the tremendous power problems you seem to have there, it seems that if I were you, I'd be upgrading the electrical in the room. The power problems you describe seem downright bizarre and quite dramatic.
You mention various parts of the day being unbearable, and luckily I don't have anything like that going on here, so it's pretty easy to evaluate on battery, or off. :)
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As I have said before, I have tried many power conditioners over the years to no avail.
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No I mean, full on electrical work. Isolation and regulation and whatnot.
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Yep, got that too.
If your town has bad AC coming into your house, you cannot do anything about it.
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huh. Learn something new.
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You're missapplying my buzzwords. By sizzle I mean sounds live. Anyway, not finished listening. Plus mark in the TBI category, seems to have a blacker presentation, lower noise floor. There are some pluses for the TBI, it's nearly a wash between the two amps on SQ. I will be very specific when I write my final stuff.
No, your description (to me) fits most Class D amps I have heard. My response is not meant to be taken as criticizing what you wrote. It is simply a response (based on my experiences) to your observed listening impressions, nothing more.
That is why I said its not easy to write an evaluation, due to all the possible ways it can be taken. Again, no right or wrong here, just preferences based on ones overall system.
As a side note, picked up a NOS quad of Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plates from my tech buddy, and installing them in the C/J clone using the TBI amps was stunning. The midrage improved to the point it almost sounded "live", treble was tamed just enough, and 3-D improved. Also picked up a vintage Bendix 5V4G tube for the Modwright Oppo (date code 9/43), and that really improved SACD/DVD playback. The TBI brought out all the improvements (both subtle and not subtle) with the tube changes. It really does remind one of a high quality SET amp.
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No, your description (to me) fits most Class D amps I have heard. My response is not meant to be taken as criticizing what you wrote. It is simply a response (based on my experiences) to your observed listening impressions, nothing more.
That is why I said its not easy to write an evaluation, due to all the possible ways it can be taken. Again, no right or wrong here, just preferences based on ones overall system.
As a side note, picked up a NOS quad of Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plates from my tech buddy, and installing them in the C/J clone using the TBI amps was stunning. The midrage improved to the point it almost sounded "live", treble was tamed just enough, and 3-D improved. Also picked up a vintage Bendix 5V4G tube for the Modwright Oppo (date code 9/43), and that really improved SACD/DVD playback. The TBI brought out all the improvements (both subtle and not subtle) with the tube changes. It really does remind one of a high quality SET amp.
That TBI is somethung else when making subtle improvements in your system. It always reveals the differences. That is very rare in a $500 econo amp.
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Spent the last few minutes getting caught up on this thread, and I do not find the results of Rclark surprising at all. As I have said before, the home team...in this case the Virtue amp....has the advantage in a comparison. Primarily due to the fact that the associated equipment used with the established amplifier is selected to be a favourable match. Now if the Virtue amp and the Millenia were similar sounding, then both amps would acquit themselves well. But this does not appear to be the case in this situation, as these two amps have different strengths and limitations. Another factor that often comes into play is the listeners long term association and familiarity with the established amp, which tends to predispose him/her to appreciating the virtues of that product. In short, Rclark knows what the Virtue amp does well, and values those traits....which are different than the Millenia.
Now the idea that the Millenia is not a world beater makes sense to me also, and I have never evaluated it in that regards. But rather I look at its sound qualities as being distinct and unique to the device, and judge it on its own merits to reproduce music. The Millenia is a class BD amplifier, and it does not sound like a SET, nor a Tripath, nor a Class A/B, or a Class A amplifier. The way it presents music is superb, but it does it within its own abilities and should not be touted to be superior or inferior to other topologies. Now the price versus performance ration is a fair one, and in my opinion it is a remarkable product at its price point. But that is only my opinion based on what i have heard from the Millenia and other amps that reside at this price point. Now with that said, I have not had a Virtue in my home to listen to...so I make no definitive statements.
I spent a bit of time listening to this amp again tonight, and find that in my system the battery arrangement still performs the best, although the upgraded AC power supply has its merits. If I had a speaker system with a more energetic top end, then I could see the AC option being a better choice. So much of what is being debated here comes down to the fine points of system matching. The Millenia is going to excel in one type of system, and the Virtue another type. Of course listener preference comes into play also, and one person may prefer one over the other.
One thing i do caution against is to not build the Millenia up to be something it is not. I shy away from the term giant killer, because often it creates unrealistic expectations. The Millenia is an outstanding $500 amplifier, a game changer in most respects. But it is not going to outperform the finer conventional amplifiers in the market, whether they be tube, solid state, OTL, or SET. There are some practical limitations to the amp, even for this little dynamo. But I do agree that high quality sound can be had for short green, and that is an awesome thing to have in this hobby. If you are working on a budget, buy a Millenia and spend the money you save on upgrading speakers and source components, its a smart way to build a good system.
Regards
Mister Pig
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[quote author=Mister Pig link=topic=108242.msg1150152#msg1150152 As I have said before, the home team...in this case the Virtue amp....has the advantage in a comparison. Primarily due to the fact that the associated equipment used with the established amplifier is selected to be a favourable match. Now if the Virtue amp and the Millenia were similar sounding, then both amps would acquit themselves well. But this does not appear to be the case in this situation, as these two amps have different strengths and limitations. Another factor that often comes into play is the listeners long term association and familiarity with the established amp, which tends to predispose him/her to appreciating the virtues of that product. In short, Rclark knows what the Virtue amp does well, and values those traits....which are different than the Millenia.
[/quote]
I think this is an excellent point that far too few of us take into consideration when evaluating any component in our system.........
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Spent the last few minutes getting caught up on this thread, and I do not find the results of Rclark surprising at all. As I have said before, the home team...in this case the Virtue amp....has the advantage in a comparison. Primarily due to the fact that the associated equipment used with the established amplifier is selected to be a favourable match. Now if the Virtue amp and the Millenia were similar sounding, then both amps would acquit themselves well. But this does not appear to be the case in this situation, as these two amps have different strengths and limitations. Another factor that often comes into play is the listeners long term association and familiarity with the established amp, which tends to predispose him/her to appreciating the virtues of that product. In short, Rclark knows what the Virtue amp does well, and values those traits....which are different than the Millenia.
Now the idea that the Millenia is not a world beater makes sense to me also, and I have never evaluated it in that regards. But rather I look at its sound qualities as being distinct and unique to the device, and judge it on its own merits to reproduce music. The Millenia is a class BD amplifier, and it does not sound like a SET, nor a Tripath, nor a Class A/B, or a Class A amplifier. The way it presents music is superb, but it does it within its own abilities and should not be touted to be superior or inferior to other topologies. Now the price versus performance ration is a fair one, and in my opinion it is a remarkable product at its price point. But that is only my opinion based on what i have heard from the Millenia and other amps that reside at this price point. Now with that said, I have not had a Virtue in my home to listen to...so I make no definitive statements.
I spent a bit of time listening to this amp again tonight, and find that in my system the battery arrangement still performs the best, although the upgraded AC power supply has its merits. If I had a speaker system with a more energetic top end, then I could see the AC option being a better choice. So much of what is being debated here comes down to the fine points of system matching. The Millenia is going to excel in one type of system, and the Virtue another type. Of course listener preference comes into play also, and one person may prefer one over the other.
One thing i do caution against is to not build the Millenia up to be something it is not. I shy away from the term giant killer, because often it creates unrealistic expectations. The Millenia is an outstanding $500 amplifier, a game changer in most respects. But it is not going to outperform the finer conventional amplifiers in the market, whether they be tube, solid state, OTL, or SET. There are some practical limitations to the amp, even for this little dynamo. But I do agree that high quality sound can be had for short green, and that is an awesome thing to have in this hobby. If you are working on a budget, buy a Millenia and spend the money you save on upgrading speakers and source components, its a smart way to build a good system.
Regards
Mister Pig
Thank you for injecting some rational commmentary. Nice read, thank you!
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Thank you Mr. Pig.
I should have never used the words giant killer, it has made way too many enemies here. The only way any amp can kill another is if one does not turn on. The TBI satisfies my prefernce of being in the first five rows at a concert, or being in the recording studio itself. But that is on my system that I use, it might be diffeent on other systems. The Ncore 400's put me further back in the hall, more like rows 12-15.
With the higher quality efficiency speakers that are out there now, you can choose a more expensive speaker system and use the TBI amp without feeling a loss of quality. Before I would spend $5000 on an amp and $5000 on a pai of speakers, I would be more apt to spend $500 on this amp and $9500 on the speakers.
I still like the idea of the amp being able to play on a battery, that gets rid of any AC glare that I get here on Friday and Saturday nights. Often, that is the only time that I get to play my system.
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:duh:
Oh, I forgot Mr. Pig, you should really try the TBI with the Cardas posts and Cardas RCA mods. That adds the icing on the cake. :thumb:
:scratch:
I wonder why rclark never mentioned the high quality Cardas parts on the tour amp? Cardas is as good as it gets and sounds the best that we have ever tried. And we tried a lot.
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I should have never used the words giant killer
Maybe maybe not. It's all relative. Right? I mean, I've never heard the TBI but I have heard the Virtue and Jolida. I filled it under, if I'm ever in a position that money and space was a real concern, I could live with either one very happily. I think it's great that someone just starting out can buy that instead of a $200 receiver from a big box store and actually get something "hifi". Giant Killer? I bet it does walk all over some much more expensive gear. I have no doubt. People just need to take it for what it is and not get their panties in a wad. :P
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Maybe maybe not. It's all relative. Right? I mean, I've never heard the TBI but I have heard the Virtue and Jolida. I filled it under, if I'm ever in a position that money and space was a real concern, I could live with either one very happily. I think it's great that someone just starting out can buy that instead of a $200 receiver from a big box store and actually get something "hifi". Giant Killer? I bet it does walk all over some much more expensive gear. I have no doubt. People just need to take it for what it is and not get their panties in a wad. :P
:thumb: +1
Thanks Jason, I am glad someone understands.
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It really does remind one of a high quality SET amp.
Which one? 300B, 2A3, 45, PX-25, 421A?
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All of them, and none of them. :D
The statement was a generic reference to the open sound a SET amp provides that most amps do not.
I think Mr. Pig's earlier comments hit the nail on the head. The TBI is a excellent amp at it's price point, and works extremely well for low wattage setups. The fact that one can spend more on speakers, and potentially get better sound that if one split the same amount cash allocating more to a expensive amp and less on speakers is the real take away. 8)
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Even though I am using the TBI with a $17K system, if it was stolen from me tomorrow, I could easily live with this $2500 system. It would be the TBI amp, the Gallo Classico3 speakers, and the Jolida glass Dac. Cables would have to be the Virtues. Speaker cable and IC's are very open and smooth, even better than Zu audio cables. The USB cable is most definitely Virtue all the way.
We have tried a variety of very high dollar USB cables including the $250 Nordost Blue Heaven's, and the $70 Virt s beat them all in our systems. If you are looking for a top USB cable, the Virtue is a must try.
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Didn't know you had the Jolida Dac. Also, had no idea that Virtue even had a USB cable.
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Jolida Dac does sound a little thin with my present system, but with the Gallo's it sounded fine. I am still using the AMR in my present set-up.
If you go to the Virtue website, you will see that they are still selling their cables. I wouldn't trade my Virtue USB cable for anything.
Oops. it looks like the USB is $55, not $70 Even a greater buy. :thumb:
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Perhaps I should add a bit of clarification to my last post. I do not want to give the impression that I my enthusiasm for the Millenia has cooled. It certainly has not! what I find so remarkable about this integrated is how refined it is on the top end, there is a notable absence of grain, harshness, dryness, or any type of distortion that is typically associated with affordable solid state electronics. I also find the "black background" that many have commented on to be an attribute that is not found on 500 dollar amps. Imaging is also pretty darn good, and once again excellent at its price point. As i stated earlier, I prefer the amp run on battery power, but I can see where the improved AC could work well in another type of system. But 12 volt power does it for me, haven't had the need to run it on 24 volts.
Where are the limitations? The main one I find is that the Millenia does not have the harmonic density that my hybrid SET has. This seems to be an attribute that I have heard on other chip style amplifiers, namely the Tri path based ones, but they are far far worse in this regards. This is a minor issue and not one that is a huge deal, and this is in comparison to a very good SET amp-which happens to excellent this department. Heck two output tubes in this amp cost more than the Millenia. In my opinion this does tend to lead to a bit of overall smoothness in the way the amp presents music, and for many that is not a bad thing. On battery power this trait is reduced, and that is probably the main reason I prefer it in this manner. Now if I did not have a good SET to A-B against, I may never notice this....especially if i were comparing against a budget priced piece of solid state. Now if i were comparing against budget priced tube gear, like the current stuff out of Asia, I would find that it has a more even tonal balance and lower noise floor. So much of what I say about the amp is in context to what I have to compare it against, and is framed by my reference system. Which are well suited to SET amplification. But for the record I enjoy the Millenia immensely, and have NO trouble recommending it to anyone wanting to build an affordable high quality system. It may not work with every speaker and in every system, so its not a shoe horn transplant for the established audiophile. But if you were getting a friend into this insane hobby, this would be one of my go to system configurations to recommend.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Certainly tough to compete with a good SET amp in terms of harmonic density. That is certainly a considerable strength of SET designs.
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Has anyone used the amp as just a power amp?
In case you already have a preamp and don't need/want the amp to have voltage attenuation...
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Has anyone used the amp as just a power amp?
In case you already have a preamp and don't need/want the amp to have voltage attenuation...
According to Jan Plummer turning the attenuator all the way up will take 99% of it's influence out of the chain.
He also stated that bypassing the volume control was a bad idea.
When I had the amp for audition I used it as a straight amp with my Dual Core as pre.
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Some here are saying that they are hearing a lack harmonic texture(HT) from the TBI. After spending 9 months with the TBI, I have my system tweaked to the max, no lack of HT at all. After listeng to two other sets of Class D amp that sound great, I have found that these Class D amps are very linear in sound. They do not add, nor do they take away. Whatever is in the system, these amps will play it.
Over the last 35 years, I have always found that a tube somewhere in the system, and the HT is there. Maybe it is the tube distortion, or just the idea of something glowing, and the sound is great. I imagine most of you will agree that an all SS system greatly lacks HT. And without HT, the magic, the goose bumps, toe tapping and head swaying disappears.
Freo-1 was struggling with his TBI in his system, he adds a tube preamp with Mullard tubes and the problem disappears. My constant tweaking of my system with Dac's, and I now have the AMR DP-77 tube Dac/Pre as my reference. I tried many ss Dacs under 1K, all SS that I auditioned just did not cut the cake. Some of the SS that selle for $3-8 K did. But the most magical was the Lampizator and the AMR. Again, without the tube, the magic is hard to get.
Maybe my AMR Dac is like a Set amp, that is why the system sounds Set-like magical but with more detail and transparency.
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Ok, I'll keep this one relatively brief and non-controversial.
Here are my nutshell findings. This is in a normal sensitivity system running a pair of 90db Gr Insignia monitors and an Epik Legend sub. I own Magnestand MMG's but did not compare in fairness to the very low output of the TBI.
Virtue Two.2, modded, on batteries.
detail: 3/5
noise/blackness: 2.5/5
bass (hipassed): 3/5
highs: 4/5
overall power: 3/5
musicality: 3/5
TBI Millennia, modded, on batteries.
detail: 4.5/5
noise/blackness: 4/5
bass: 2/5
highs: 3/5
overall power: 1/5
musicality: 3/5
As you can see, pretty much a wash. Yes, the TBI was definitely quieter, and more detailed, but seemed to compress quite a bit, and delivered a muted overall frequency response in my system, not reaching the highs or lows with the authority of the other amps. Ran out of juice dynamically. But had a definite sweetness to the sound, sweet, sweet, sweet. Remember I kept using the word pleasant before, and how I couldn't place my finger on it, and that's what it was, it has a very sweet sounding coloration, which must be the "SET" sound signature there. I didn't figure this out until I got my Ncores in. I'll explain more below. Anyway, I could see why people who've run tube amps with high sensitivity speakers would really like this amp, a lot. Power, something it lacked, and this showed in bass output as well, and quality, which was pretty much on par with my castrated Virtue. Highs were good, delicate, etc, but, along with musicality, I didn't get the vivid, 3D, relaxed presentation of the Ncores. The Virtue was noisier, yes, but noticeably brawnier and more dynamic, with an organic "live" sound, compared to the almost "prepackaged", nearly plastic sounding (in this system), TBI.
Ncore monoblocks
detail: 5++
noise/blackness: 5++
bass: 5++
highs: 5++
overall power: 5++
musicality: 5++
The Ncore is like Usain Bolt, is a lithe, muscular track athlete, sonically shaming both amps (in this system). It was amusing to put them on the monitors. For the first time ever I hear these monitors pumping out BASS, I nearly laughed when I heard it, because I didn't know it was possible. It was fun to watch the speaker cones come to life and lunge from their baffles. Suddenly there was spooky, dimensional realism in the vocals, an effortless presentation with limitless headroom (like Usain trotting along doing warmup), if you read my Ncore impressions in the Ncore thread and the comparison then to the Virtue, everything I said stands, and no, the TBI does not present any challenge to these monoblocks.
I did notice that when I put the Ncores onto the monitors, there was none of the sweetness that the TBI displayed.. it was completely neutral. But when I put the Ncores on my Magnestands, the Magnestand Jupiter beeswax/Mundorf Silver in Oil crossover gave that sweet coloration, just a dab of it. Not as sweet as the TBI on the monitors, but just enough to my taste.
I want to repeat that: the TBI on the monitors had a very pleasant sweet tone. Ncores on the monitors, completely neutral. Ncores on my Magnestands, a dab of sweet tone is introduced...
What this tells me is that the Ncore truly is a completely neutral amp that one would then choose components to place around them in order to tailor the sound.. (lotta guys putting tube preamps in front, and it all makes sense now), whereas the TBI already has this sweet tone built right in. My findings from listening, my thoughts, my opinion.
I wish I could have heard the TBI on a high sensitivity system, that might be neat. But for those of you with regular sensitivity speakers, I don't suggest them. in fact I suggest waiting for the new 250-300 watt Virtue Three if you want a turnkey amp, or getting our your soldering iron and building some Ncores.
My source is very simple and pure, right now consisting of the fabulous Emotiva ERC-2 cd player into a battery powered Warspeed Optocoupler LDR attenuator.
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Thank you rclark for being on the tour and your opinion. I see your are the first on the tour to complain about power output. :scratch:
I have tried them on 86db Gallo Stradas, 88db Gallo Classico 3's, and 92db Gallo Classico 4's besides the higher sensitivity spakers and never had any problems blowing my ears off. The TBI plays my Gallo Stadas just as loud as my Virtue does since they are about the same power.
I never have tried any speakers that cost under $1000, so maybe I should try some of those with the TBI amp to see what the outcome is.
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What I said there, those were my pure observations from careful listening. Now remember, even Pez and Tyson can have different opinions at RMAF when they are both in the same room. Those were my findings.
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I did notice on my 2011 6moons Blue Moons award winning speakers, the TBI was more transparent and had better holographic imaging the the tour Ncores had. The TBI put me in the first 4 rows at the concert, the Ncores was more in rows 12-15. But that is maybe just a coloration.
The Atsahs I had here for 10 days was more musical than the tour Ncores, not near as much AC glare as the NC400's.
But that is just my observation.
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"not near as much AC glare as the NC400's" - the ncores don't have AC glare, you do, and apparently at a dramatic level. You yourself said your power quality varies widely, so your house is not a reliable test source. On another day your results could have been different, "glare"-wise. Right? That makes sense right? :)
I feel bad for you, I really do! Your house, electrically, is like an incurable leper.
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I feel bad for you, I really do! Your house, electrically, is like an incurable leper.
Yep, even Harry Pearson says the AC distortion is getting worse and worse every year. He said that Enid Lumley was the first to complain about this problem many years ago.
I guess the Atsahs just have a better power supply than the NC400's. That is just my observation.
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Ok, I'll keep this one relatively brief and non-controversial.
Here are my nutshell findings. This is in a normal sensitivity system running a pair of 90db Gr Insignia monitors and an Epik Legend sub. I own Magnestand MMG's but did not compare in fairness to the very low output of the TBI.
it is truly unfortunate that you did not audition the tbi's with your maggies. unfortunate for you, and for all those who are curious about what your opinions might have been. i know i was curious, and i don't even like maggies - i simply wanted your reaction to the tbi driving less efficient speakers. in fairness to the tbi, you should not have prejudged the amp w/o trying it.
doug s.
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I kept getting :duh: don't put them on your Maggie's from Tom and I figured 35 watts wasn't going to be too exciting.
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I kept getting :duh: don't put them on your Maggie's from Tom and I figured 35 watts wasn't going to be too exciting.
i agree you got some mixed signals from tom about this, (he seemed more concerned about the load the maggies would put on 'em, more than the power itself), but you had 'em in your house, man! worse case? it wouldn't sound good at loud wolume.
doug s.
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I guess the Atsahs just have a better power supply than the NC400's. That is just my observation.
That is one possibility but certainly nothing but pure speculation.
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Yep, even Harry Pearson says the AC distortion is getting worse and worse every year. He said that Enid Lumley was the first to complain about this problem many years ago.
I guess the Atsahs just have a better power supply than the NC400's. That is just my observation.
That is one possibility but certainly nothing but pure speculation.
considering the only issue tom is talking about is poor power/bad ac line noise; it seems likely his speculation is accurate, even tho it is admittedly speculation. (something that was never in question; curious why you see the need to emphasize it.) after all, better power supplies are exactly what helps bad ac line noise.
doug s.
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It could be many things; concluding it is a "better" power supply in the Atsah, as compared to the nc400 is nebulous at best, especially considering the specs of the two supplies, the comments to the contrary made by the designer, and the self-reported high variability in the quality of power coming out of the wall....
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I kept getting :duh: don't put them on your Maggie's from Tom and I figured 35 watts wasn't going to be too exciting.
And I also said in an Email to you that the TBI should drive your Maggies as loud as the Virtue will, maybe you forgot? If you never use your GR speakers and keep them in your closet, you must not think too highly of them as a monitor speaker. Any true monitor will beat the Maggies any day of the week.
And I said all along that the Ncores would win, especially with the type of music that you play. Any 200 watt amp would have won in your situation, it did not have to be Ncores.
As I said before, the reason I put the TBI amp in the low wattage section, it is a low wattage amp like SET amps are. For my use, I use a 12v battery when I use the battery side of it, that is only 15 wpc. The most power that I ever use is 1/2-1 watt out of my amp since I use 99db speakers. Any louder and I would be deaf.
While being in the Army 40 years ago, I learned on what loudness levels to play my system to keep from losing my hearing. I have carefully protected my hearing ever since, around my audio system and working every day with noisy machinery. Very few people, especially men, ever does that.
Maybe that is the reason that I am so keen on AC glare, I haven't lost any of my hearing. I complained about it 30 years ago, and on the Virtue threads 2-3 years ago. I guess rclark might have forgotten about that. I love my Virtue amp on battery, on AC it is definitely a no-go.
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Hearing loss is a natural part of aging and can happen regardless of how well you protect your ears from loud noise. You might want to have your hearing checked to confirm your claim that you have not lost any of your hearing.
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Hearing loss is a natural part of aging and can happen regardless of how well you protect your ears from loud noise. You might want to have your hearing checked to confirm your claim that you have not lost any of your hearing.
I had them checked last year, I check them every five years. My audio hobby is very important to me. . The Audioligist could not believe how good my hearing was at my age. If I had hearing loss, I would never complain about AC glare.
The main reason for hearing loss as you age is the noise pollution in the world. Protect your ears against that as you age and you will have none to very little loss.
The Army audiologist 40 years ago said that you will have temporary loss after just going to one live concert, that is the reason your ears ring. But if you go to a live concert every night for just one week, you will have a permanent hearing loss. There are no cures for permanent hearing loss if you are an audiophile.
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http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/001045.htm (http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/001045.htm)
Definition of Age-related hearing loss:
Age-related hearing loss, or presbycusis, is the slow loss of hearing that occurs as people get older.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors:
Tiny hairs inside your ear help you hear. They pick up sound waves and change them into the nerve signals that the brain interprets as sound. Hearing loss occurs when the tiny hairs inside the ear are damaged or die. The hair cells do not regrow, so most hearing loss is permanent.
There is no known single cause for age-related hearing loss. Most commonly, it is caused by changes in the inner ear that occur as you grow older. However, your genes and loud noises (such as from rock concerts or music headphones) may play a large role.
The following factors contribute to age-related hearing loss:
* Family history (age-related hearing loss tends to run in families)
* Repeated exposure to loud noises
* Smoking (smokers are more likely to have such hearing loss than nonsmokers)
Certain medical conditions and medications also contribute to age-related hearing loss. About half of all people over age 75 have some amount of age-related hearing loss.
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Gents,
This is a thread about the TBI MG3 amplifier.
If you have any comments on your experience about the TBI please post them!
Postings about age related hearing loss are kinda informative, but don't belong here.
Start another thread on the subject and stop wasting space in this thread with these petty arguments...NOBODY CARES!
Tom is a decent guy who at his own expense and risk offered up his personal amp for this tour.
It would be nice to show him the respect he deserves, and stop all of this nonsensical bickering! :roll:
Now back to the regular program....
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And I also said in an Email to you that the TBI should drive your Maggies as loud as the Virtue will, maybe you forgot? If you never use your GR speakers and keep them in your closet, you must not think too highly of them as a monitor speaker. Any true monitor will beat the Maggies any day of the week.
And I said all along that the Ncores would win, especially with the type of music that you play. Any 200 watt amp would have won in your situation, it did not have to be Ncores.
As I said before, the reason I put the TBI amp in the low wattage section, it is a low wattage amp like SET amps are. For my use, I use a 12v battery when I use the battery side of it, that is only 15 wpc. The most power that I ever use is 1/2-1 watt out of my amp since I use 99db speakers. Any louder and I would be deaf.
While being in the Army 40 years ago, I learned on what loudness levels to play my system to keep from losing my hearing. I have carefully protected my hearing ever since, around my audio system and working every day with noisy machinery. Very few people, especially men, ever does that.
Maybe that is the reason that I am so keen on AC glare, I haven't lost any of my hearing. I complained about it 30 years ago, and on the Virtue threads 2-3 years ago. I guess rclark might have forgotten about that. I love my Virtue amp on battery, on AC it is definitely a no-go.
This is a good point in this post to expand upon. This is a low wattage forum, and its areas of interest are low wattage amps and associated speakers, namely fairly efficient ones. Now the TBI is more flexible in speaker selection than single digit power tube amps, but there must be some speakers it works well with, and some it does not. It also makes sense that more powerful amps have the possibility of doing bass and dynamics better than the TBI, ESPECIALLY if the speaker being used is marginal for use with lower powered tube amps. Monitors can be this way in regards to the bass department, it takes a lot of power to coax the maximum bass output from them.
I am going to say a couple of things that may or may not be taken well. I don't post on this site a lot, but do read it regularly, and have been a member for awhile. But no big loss if you don't like what I have to say.
These kind of threads are great for exposing people to new and unheard of gear, and that is a positive thing. But they also have the ability to turn into a love fest or group think kind of event. Where dissenting opinions or less than effusive praise is looking on as a thread crap, or some other socially unacceptable behaviour. Participants have to take care to make sure that rational and unbiased critical thinking and listening skills are employed, otherwise exaggerations and hyperbole creep in. That does the manufacturer or potential owners no good.
With that said, I want to say one more thing. I do believe that one member here was pretty biased against the TBI amp before any critical listening started. From what I see, there are outside factors besides sound quality that appears to affect his/her judgement of the product. Some people are just somewhat contrary, especially when a thread kind of goes into a love fest kind of path. Much of how he/she evaluated the TBI was improper in my opinion.....and it is just my opinion mind you. from what I saw, it looks like this member had their mind made up that it was going to be just OK before any listening really started.
But once again, I must reiterate that much of what is being discussed in this thread is about symbiotic matches between speakers and amplifier. System configurations have as much to do with how well this amp is liked, and what its strengths and limitations are. My point of it being somewhat less harmonically sense must be taken in context of my system. In my system I use a J-FET based phono stage, a multi bit solid state DAC, and passive pre-amp. My amp only has one pair of output tubes and op amps as the pre driver stage. So when I take the amp out there are no tubes in my system. Another member believes that a system needs at least one tube to have proper harmonic texture...ie tube magic, and that is done at the source level. Which means that system has some characteristics that address harmonic texture that mine does not. System synergy.
Regards
Mister Pig
None of my points are intended to demean anyone in this thread. I am just calling them like I see them.
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Nice post Mr. Pig.
Three people have mentioned that this amp is a good value, but it ultimately didn't do it for them. They have been dismissed as people that didn't "get it". Instead, they should have been counted as people that saw a good value but chose something else. The giant killer thing made the thread devisive from the get go.
Not sure if anyone else caught this, but Rclark was driving the attenuator on the TBI with another passive attenuator. Usually this is a bad idea. With the 1v nominal output of his CD player it is something that I would have avoided, although I don't know the nitty gritty on the optocoupler so maybe it didn't matter. I still value his review and count it as one of many. In other words, I can read what he did for myself and it is one of the experiences that will make the collective review.
Carry on men! :D
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Good point, Quiet. And as a result, I'm not sure if impedance matching might have been an issue with the lackluster bass performance Rclark was reporting (I think). From what I recall, if output impedance or source isn't at least 10X lower than input impedance of amp, you can have bass roll-off. And passive attenuators can have higher output impedances, meaning amp pairing often needs to employ fairly high input impedance amps. With a passive attenuator on the TBI, the input impedance might not be that high...
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A) My cdp is 2volts nominal, 12 volts peak to peak, it has tons of drive. So that kinda shoots that down.
B) Tom, I have a lot of the same music you might have, just a lot of stuff you wouldn't as well. Last night I listened to Dire Straits. I don't listen to a "your kind of music" I listen to nearly everything.
C) And hearing loss? My usual listening levels are 70db tops, I've mentioned this several times since I've been hear. One of my favorite things about the ncore is full enchilada sound at low level.
D) Who's deaf? I have excellent hearing up to 18khz. You wish you had my ears :thumb:
Also, to your comment about power, and the Virtue. My virtue on linear supply here, and I don't have power conditioners, is damn near as good as battery.
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As far as I understand, the impedance matching issue is not a function of the amount of voltage output of your source. I would be curious to know the output impedance of the cdp, the input and output impedances of the optocoupler, and the input impedance of the TBI.
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If it makes you happy, I'll find out that stuff later. Meanwhile, carry on to the next guy :thumb:
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It's only important if you want to understand whether equipment matching might have played a role in the performance in your system.
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If it makes you happy, I'll find out that stuff later. Meanwhile, carry on to the next guy
I don't think it's a matter of making genjamon "happy" but if someone is using a preamp or attenuator into the TBI rather than a directly connected source, it is obviously relevant and light-shedding information. (Pardon the unintended pun that could relate to LDR attenuators.)
Steve
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Good optocouplers usually have buffered outputs... it's probably not a passive device but may not have any gain.
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I have been told it's not passive, but provides no gain. I love the thing. I'm source, knob, amps.
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Good point, Quiet. And as a result, I'm not sure if impedance matching might have been an issue with the lackluster bass performance Rclark was reporting (I think). From what I recall, if output impedance or source isn't at least 10X lower than input impedance of amp, you can have bass roll-off. And passive attenuators can have higher output impedances, meaning amp pairing often needs to employ fairly high input impedance amps. With a passive attenuator on the TBI, the input impedance might not be that high...
Actually this is a point worth emphasising. One evening I did run the TBI in place of my power amp, and kept my transformer based Electra Print PVA pre-amp hooked up. The sound was not to my liking at all, very lacklustre. I ended up pulling the PVA out and hooking up source directly to the Millenia, and sound was significantly better. I understand another member has gotten excellent results with using a tube pre-amp in front of the Millenia, but my experience is that I achieved the best sound quality with source units going directly into the amp.
Regards
Mister Pig
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And another good reason to go direct, one less IC cable to take away from the sound.
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The amp has arrived safe and sound in Pasadena, CA and is settling in quite nicely. Charging the battery and running on AC right now. So far, a big thumbs up. I'm really liking it. Very remarkable for such a small light weight unit. More details later.
For those of you fellow ACers in the area, I'm thinking of having an open house this Saturday afternoon at my place if there is any interest. PM me for details.
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I kept getting :duh: don't put them on your Maggie's from Tom and I figured 35 watts wasn't going to be too exciting.
Why not see for yourself?
Maybe you should try this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-how-much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html#post2869365
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So trackball2 and I got together today and put this amp through its paces. He brought over the TBI and his similarly priced gainclone amp. I had my Virtue Sensation 901 with the Dodd tube buffer standing by. Now, as I've mentioned in many other posts, my system isn't completely dialed in, I still need to tamp down the room, its wood floors and big window make for a lot of strong reflections. As a result the high end is a bit emphasized and can get a bit of glare. Why is treating the room so much less sexy than buying the latest, greatest, thingamajig? :scratch: My speakers don't help. As I've also mentioned, these are the best speakers I've been able to get into my system, but they have a Heil type AMT and they go way up there, so that doesn't help the room.
Currently we both are running tube amps in our systems and have become accustomed to that sound. I am recently a proud owner of a Dodd battery tube amp and preamp. We chose 3 songs, hires files from my mac mini server, and listened with the Dodd amps first, just to hear the system at its best.
Next we put the gainclone in the system (first time I've heard one). Trackball brought the gainclone because he thought that would be a good apples/apples comparison, solid state, similarly priced. It was very, very good. Smooth from top to bottom, very even, with a very forward soundstage, which encouraged foot tapping immediately. The base was tight and full, the body had good weight. If I could find anything to criticize it would be that it sounded a little dry.
Then we tried the TBI.
ACK! :o Please standby, we're experiencing technical difficulties, the show you are watching will resume shortly...
We started getting some hiccups, little dropouts, especially on attacks/quick transients. Not to worry, it's not the amp. I had another amp in my system that was doing the exact same thing and we just couldn't figure out why. I'm starting another thread on that, maybe somebody has some ideas. BTW, we decided to use the Dodd preamp to drive the TBI with the pot all the way open since we were driving the gainclone that way. In hindsight I'm not sure that was the best idea because I now realize we never listened to the TBI without a preamp... Anyway, we played some less demanding cuts and tried to not notice the dropouts. What I heard immediately was more detail. The low end sounded very similar. But as we listened more, I began to notice that it had a lighter body. I first noticed it on a piano solo and couldn't tell if it was a real piano or a sampled piano. That wasn't good. Then on female vocals I noticed a bit of harshness at certain frequencies, glare. On male vocals it sounded better and quite engaging. After a while I sensed that there seemed to be a little of the upper midrange missing, which I think gave it that light body. Of course that benefited some parts as well, but overall, that would be my biggest complaint about this amp. Otherwise it sounded very good, alive, exciting, pretty accurate and more detailed than the gainclone.
Then we put the Sensation into the loop and I was really surprised at how emphasized the high end was. Now I know this amp well and love this amp. But when I got these new speakers, I couldn't tame the high end. It has always sounded great with my bookshelf speakers, but it doesn't seem to get along with the AMT's. Synergy. I need to do some more tube rolling to see if I can get it to play nice with these speakers.
We decided to focus on the gainclone vs. the TBI for the time being and swapped them out a few more times to comfirm what we were hearing. I played a very revealing cut, a solo sax in a relatively small room. The weight difference between the two amps was obvious. The gainclone just sounded more real to my ears.
We then took the show over to trackball's house and put it into his system. His system is completely different. Centered around a good turntable with Zu full range speakers and subwoofer. It took me a little while to adjust to the dramatic difference in character. Here we were able to really listen critically to the TBI now that the dropouts were gone. I brought my digital files with me, but we pretty quickly focused on records. I noticed much the same things. Specifically in an acoustic jazz selection with the gainclone the standup bass sounded natural. With the TBI it sounded like it was made out of balsa wood. I also noticed, while the gainclone was even, flat across the whole spectrum, the TBI was not. It brought out certain aspects, like the congas, which sounded great, or brushes on a snare, but then sounded unnatural and light on the piano and horns. On this system the TBI also sounded like there was a slight notch up in the 3-6K range which could account for it's apparent increase in detail. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, I'm not an engineer and don't really understand how amps work.
A quick comparison to both our tube amps confirmed my guess that neither the gainclone or TBI could really compete. To my ear, the tube amps were just more real and satisfying.
So in conclusion, I liked this amp. Would I put it in my system? Probably not. But for the price I think it's well worth it. Giant killer? Sorry, I don't think so. If anything, our little shootout may just have revealed that the real giant killer is the gainclone! :D
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I would like to thank abernardi for his time, access to his system, and critical comments. We really ran the TBI through its paces primarily using the battery. The comments he listed represented the consensus of both of us using two very different systems and rooms.
My system includes: Harman Kardon T60, Grado Reference Master and Musical Surroundings Nova Phenomena preamp, HP dedicated music server using the USB output to Eastern Electric MiniMax Plus DAC, AVA Avastar Preamp, AVA Ultravalve, Dal Audio Gainclone, Zu Soul Superflys Mrk 1-B, and Zu Undertone powered sub. Speaker cables were Morrow Audio SP5. All amps tested used the Preamp (the TBI volume was turned all of the way up). The gainclone by Dal Audio was mentioned by me in an older posting and was custom built for the 16 ohm Superflys. The price of the gainclone was $500, which provides a good price point comparison to the TBI.
Both of our systems are similar in that we have very efficient speakers, and the TBI had more than sufficient power.
As far as the TBI, it did somethings quite right. Very detailed such as fingers on a fret board which gives a holographic quality, strong bass and midrange, very quiet and on some recordings a very nice sound stage and pin point instrument placement. These qualities are also present with low volume listening. The weakness as described previously with a lighter body, to me, is a real drawback. For example, with acoustic bass and piano, the detailed remained but the sound stage narrowed. On the other hand, the higher frequencies were quite strong pleasing and accurate.
In summary, the TBI really has great features, and performs exceptionally well given its price point. It will sound quite real on some music and slightly artificial on others. Kind of like a dish spiked with MSG. On the other hand, the gainclone from top to bottom did an exceptional job in delivering a consistent and pleasing sound regardless of what was being played. The gainclone was not perfect but I think I can live with the gainclone and will not be replacing it with the TBI.
We spent less time with the Ultravalve and Dodd tube amps in this shoot out since these amps are outside the TBI price point. However we both agreed when the Ultravalve was inserted, there was a pleasing quality with more of a sense of realism as if the musicians were voluntarily playing and not being forced to do so. Less of an artificial presentation.
Thank you Tom for including me in this tour. abernardi and I am grateful for this opportunity.
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abernardi and trackball's opinion are exactly my current opinion wrt every class D amp I've ever heard. TBH the more positive reviews have surprised me so I'm sure it's better than most, but I have heard my speakers with a modified Trends and a Virtue amp and I think they are both very poor amplifiers despite their mostly good reviews.
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abernardi and trackball's opinion are exactly my current opinion wrt every class D amp I've ever heard. TBH the more positive reviews have surprised me so I'm sure it's better than most, but I have heard my speakers with a modified Trends and a Virtue amp and I think they are both very poor amplifiers despite their mostly good reviews.
Well, as I always say with audio, it’s “horses for courses”, or caveat emptor, as the case may be.
It’s good to get the amp out on tour and get a diverse set of opinions/feedback. Personally, the TBI may be the only Class D amp I have auditioned that did not have me running for the OFF switch all the time. In general, I have never liked the Class D sound, and still generally do not care for it personally. Other people are very happy with their Class D amps, and that is fine. It’s all about synergy in a given audio system.
I continue to fine the TBI very enjoyable for rock/pop/oldies type recordings. I find that with classical; however, I prefer the more laid back presentation of the First Watt M2. The M2 just seems to be a better match with my speakers, which sport SEAS Excel drivers.
Again, the take away is this: “The TBI deserves a serious audition for any low wattage application”. At its price point, it’s very hard to beat, and performs very well compared to a variety of other low power amps up to several times its asking price.
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So trackball2 and I got together today and put this amp through its paces. He brought over the TBI and his similarly priced gainclone amp. I had my Virtue Sensation 901 with the Dodd tube buffer standing by. Now, as I've mentioned in many other posts, my system isn't completely dialed in, I still need to tamp down the room, its wood floors and big window make for a lot of strong reflections. As a result the high end is a bit emphasized and can get a bit of glare. Why is treating the room so much less sexy than buying the latest, greatest, thingamajig? :scratch: My speakers don't help. As I've also mentioned, these are the best speakers I've been able to get into my system, but they have a Heil type AMT and they go way up there, so that doesn't help the room.
What type of AMT speakers are thes? Make and model?
What I do know of the Oskars is that the AMT drivers (dipole implementation) dont like to have anything solid structure (wall, etc) within 2 feet on either side of them.
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I would like to thank abernardi for his time, access to his system, and critical comments. We really ran the TBI through its paces primarily using the battery. The comments he listed represented the consensus of both of us using two very different systems and rooms.
My system includes: Harman Kardon T60, Grado Reference Master and Musical Surroundings Nova Phenomena preamp, HP dedicated music server using the USB output to Eastern Electric MiniMax Plus DAC, AVA Avastar Preamp, AVA Ultravalve, Dal Audio Gainclone, Zu Soul Superflys Mrk 1-B, and Zu Undertone powered sub. Speaker cables were Morrow Audio SP5. All amps tested used the Preamp (the TBI volume was turned all of the way up). The gainclone by Dal Audio was mentioned by me in an older posting and was custom built for the 16 ohm Superflys. The price of the gainclone was $500, which provides a good price point comparison to the TBI.
Both of our systems are similar in that we have very efficient speakers, and the TBI had more than sufficient power.
As far as the TBI, it did somethings quite right. Very detailed such as fingers on a fret board which gives a holographic quality, strong bass and midrange, very quiet and on some recordings a very nice sound stage and pin point instrument placement. These qualities are also present with low volume listening. The weakness as described previously with a lighter body, to me, is a real drawback. For example, with acoustic bass and piano, the detailed remained but the sound stage narrowed. On the other hand, the higher frequencies were quite strong pleasing and accurate.
In summary, the TBI really has great features, and performs exceptionally well given its price point. It will sound quite real on some music and slightly artificial on others. Kind of like a dish spiked with MSG. On the other hand, the gainclone from top to bottom did an exceptional job in delivering a consistent and pleasing sound regardless of what was being played. The gainclone was not perfect but I think I can live with the gainclone and will not be replacing it with the TBI.
We spent less time with the Ultravalve and Dodd tube amps in this shoot out since these amps are outside the TBI price point. However we both agreed when the Ultravalve was inserted, there was a pleasing quality with more of a sense of realism as if the musicians were voluntarily playing and not being forced to do so. Less of an artificial presentation.
Thank you Tom for including me in this tour. abernardi and I am grateful for this opportunity.
Before you send it off I would strongly recommend you take the time to run the TBI as a stand alone integrated. I did not like the amplifier hooked up to my pre either, I hear many of the same things you do. If you do this and get an appreciable change in sound, for the better or worse, it will validate others observations on what the amp is capable of and the best way to install it in a system. So far there are those who say it should be run as an integrated only, and another member who thinks it benefits from a pre-amp in front of it.
So would you take the time to do this for the forum?
Regards
Mister Pig
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Before you send it off I would strongly recommend you take the time to run the TBI as a stand alone integrated. I did not like the amplifier hooked up to my pre either, I hear many of the same things you do. If you do this and get an appreciable change in sound, for the better or worse, it will validate others observations on what the amp is capable of and the best way to install it in a system. So far there are those who say it should be run as an integrated only, and another member who thinks it benefits from a pre-amp in front of it.
So would you take the time to do this for the forum?
Regards
Mister Pig
An excellent observation, Mr P!
I have tried a number of hookups to the TBI. When I tried a solid state preamp (Pass Labs X 2.5), it was not nearly as good as running a Wavelength Audio DAC directly to the unit. The only preamp that (to me) worked out well was a Conrad Johnson clone (with a pair of 12AX7 tubes per side). That preamp added some 3D and smoothed out the HF with the TBI (much like the Wavelength DAC did).
I think it is safe to say in general thee less devices in thee loop between the source and speakers, the higher the probability the sound will be to ones liking. So adding a preamp for most systems my hinder the TBI's ability to provide optimum performance.
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I am not here to make any excuses for the TBI, but in my 32 years experience, I never heard a solid state amp to tame the AMT Heil tweeters. In fact, I never heard any tube amps tame it.
A close friend of mine back in the early 80's used those tweeters, but they were heavily modified. He was more of a solid state fan than a tube fan when I was a dealer, I took numerous solid state amps over, Acoustat, Bedini, Sumo, Bryston, Threshold, Perraux, and more, but those tweeters always burned my ears off. We finally tried Marantz 8B's, that came the closest, but I always heard the metallic sound of those metal drivers. I wound up taking in a couple of pairs of the ESS AMt-1B speakers over the years, and I never had any luck in taming those highs or the boomy bass.
Speed forward to the RMAF 2011 audio show and lo and behold, the Heil rep was staying the same hotel my wife and I were. I guess I had figured this company was no longer, but I was wrong. I hunted down their room, figuring by now they had tamed the high end. I stepped into their room and was out of there in three seconds. If I had stay any longer, I would have had a splitting headache.
On Heil tweeters, SS is still definitely a no-go IMO, no matter how expensive of an amp you try.
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Excellent point, Mr. Pig. We did not try to run the TBI as a stand alone integrated. It would have been hard to do a comparison since we compared 2 integrated and 4 amps. Our method was to use two different pre-amps (either Dodd or AVA) and just swap out the amp and keep everything the same. Remotes were used to equalize volume as close as possible. We found that our conclusions were very consistent in two very different systems.
I never head a Heil before this weekend. They can really energize the room and are quite revealing. Careful system matching is required to get the best sound.
Unfortunately, the TBI was shipped out last night to morganc. I hope the other tour members will try it as a stand alone integrated.
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Unfortunately, the TBI was shipped out last night to morganc. I hope the other tour members will try it as a stand alone integrated.
Mr. Pig is right.
IMHO, unless you are using a $4-10K Tube preamp and a $.5-1K IC, make sure you try the TBI as a stand alone integrated. That way your preamp and IC does not take away from the sound of the TBI. And even if you have that high of quality components, try the TBI as a stand alone integrated anyway. No pre or IC is perfect. This is much closer to a straight wire with gain.
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I actually did try it as an integrated in my living room the first night after changing fuses cause that's where I had everything set up. I didn't notice any difference between that and wide open through the warpspeed.
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I do have a very nice Pre in my system, the Allnic L-3000, and I will still try the amp both with and without the Allnic. I also have 101 dB speakers it should be interesting to hear this amp in my system vs quite nice SET amps......
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I do have a very nice Pre in my system, the Allnic L-3000, and I will still try the amp both with and without the Allnic. I also have 101 dB speakers it should be interesting to hear this amp in my system vs quite nice SET amps......
That should be a great trial, it sounds like you have quite the system.
The amp should be there tomorrow.
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What type of AMT speakers are thes? Make and model?
What I do know of the Oskars is that the AMT drivers (dipole implementation) dont like to have anything solid structure (wall, etc) within 2 feet on either side of them.
They are Avlar Prodigy speakers. Avlar developed their own AMT based on the Heil. This particular model has the AMT which crosses over at 500Hz to a SEAS 8" woofer. And yes, no walls near them. Oh, and they're not a dipole implementation, they're in a box like a regular tweeter but with a huge waveguide, almost a horn.
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I am not here to make any excuses for the TBI, but in my 32 years experience, I never heard a solid state amp to tame the AMT Heil tweeters. In fact, I never heard any tube amps tame it.
I hear you (pun intended). IMHO, Avlar has done an excellent job with this design, but they aren't Heils, they're the same idea, folded ribbon, etc. But it's an updated design. It's true I haven't settled these into my room yet, but with the right room treatment and probably biamping, I'm confident I will get there. I know they got it there in the showroom. I've never heard anything more realistic.
Speed forward to the RMAF 2011 audio show and lo and behold, the Heil rep was staying the same hotel my wife and I were. I guess I had figured this company was no longer, but I was wrong. I hunted down their room, figuring by now they had tamed the high end. I stepped into their room and was out of there in three seconds. If I had stay any longer, I would have had a splitting headache.
Yeah, I went into the Heil room at T.H.E. Show at Newport Beach this year and I had the same experience. I don't think the new ESS has really made any significant changes to the design and nobody seemed all that enthusiastic about the product.
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LoL
ESS is NOT Heil AMT. The latter is a Swiss company and the designer there was the executor of Oskar Heil's will.
The design has long been updated from the ESS model (Dr Heil working with Martin). The secret sauce is the material used in the diaphragm.
Check out http://www.precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheil.htm
I have the Syrinx and the Aulos, but the real GREAT Heil in the Kithara is (IMHO) the best AMT on the market.
(http://unitedhomeaudio.com/72a202b0.jpg)
Amazon Audio also uses the same driver in their flagship.
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TBI Millenia MG3 review
I acquired a TBI Millenia MG3 earlier this week (thanks Freo-1 !) & have seriously listened to it in my system the past 3 days. It has the AMR fuse, Cardas RCA and binding posts, anti resonant gels, & the upgraded power supply.
My 2 channel rig consists of:
GR Research N3 transmission line speakers w/ Sonicap capacitors, Sonicap bypass capacitors & No-Rez internal damping material: 90.5 db sensitivity, 40 Hz -3 db, nominal 8 ohm
Electra Cable twisted/ braided speaker cables
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 w/ Electra Cable power cord
2011 Mac Mini dedicated music server w/ 8 gb ram
JKeny Mk II USB/ SPDIF converter w/ battery & Blue Jeans 75 ohm SPDIF cable & 15 db attenuator
Oppo BDP-83SE DVD/ CD player
Virtue Audio Sensation M-451 int. amp w/ Dodd tube buffer & (2) 12v- 5 amp battery kit
Virtue Audio 1/2 meter RCA IC's
Sound treatment panels: O-C 703 (3) 2’ x 4’ x 2” early reflection, (2) behind speakers, & (2) 2’ x 4’ x 4” bass traps
Dedicated 15 amp circuit to stereo system, Pass & Seymour cryogenically-treated outlet receptacles
17 ft. x 12 ft. x 8 ft. den w/ (3) door openings (no doors)
Rat Shack digital SPL meter
Music media was strictly digital files 16/ 44.1 , 24/96, 24/192 (all .wav files) played thru Decibel.
Listened to many musical genres (jazz, classical, blues, but mainly rock), listening to Black Keys- Brothers as I type this. I selected (2) key cuts to compare the various set-ups: Fishbone- A question of life from Truth & Soul & The Pixies- Hey from Doolittle (2 well know cuts that I have used for many an audition/ shoot-out).
My conclusion: this is one really sweet sounding amp… quite a dynamo that packs a wallop!
My preference was the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 "Dac out" (bypass tube) fed directly to the MG3 utilizing the MG3 volume pot with the MG3 upgraded AC power supply. Fabulous soundstage, uber fine detail, fluid, very dynamic & bass that digs deep. The speakers tended to disappear more w/ this set-up than all others. The GR Research N3 tweeters are B & G planars w/ a small waveguide. They are detailed, but not bright. The MG3 mated extremely well w/ these, never sounded better in fact!
I switched to the Dodd 2- 12v 5 amp battery kit (my preferred way to listen to my Virtue amp), & the MG3 sounded really good, but the AC PS squeezed out a bit more detail particularly on drums & cymbals IMO.
I have always preferred tubes in my electronics. The MG3 has that “tube sound” but w/ so much more detail & speed. Yet I listened for many hours & was never fatigued or weary from extended sessions.
I connected the Dac to "tube out" w/ a Mullard E88CC-01... this tube has a romantic, lush sound w/ spooky good mid range; but it lacked that finer detail. I rolled-in an Amperex 6922 made in Holland which had a more neutral sound. I tried taking the MG3 pot completely out, using only the TubeDAC-11 pot, various settings w/ both pots, but was still left wanting a bit ...
Comparisons were made to the Virtue Audio Sensation M451 w/ Sonicap capacitors, Dodd tube buffer & battery kit ($1,500 retail). I tried the tube buffer “on” & “off” (tube is a Psvane 12AU7-T). Biggest differences were the MG3 w/ AC PS had a bigger soundstage, & again that finer detail, particularly noticeable on lower & upper register extremes. The M451 is much more attractive, built like a tank, has multiple outputs, tube buffer & a remote. By comparison, the MG3 seems cheap & very timid aesthetically; BUT it sounded better in my system.
MG3 pot was at 10 o’clock for my preferred listening volume: 80 db w/ 85 db max peaks. Tried a bit at 92 db level, pot was 12 o’clock. No clipping or strain was evident. The MG3 finer detail capabilities showed-through at lower listening levels as well.
I can’t believe how good the base model MG3 sounds with no battery or tubes! :scratch: This one is a keeper. Thanks Tom & Freo-1 for this excellent recommendation. I whole-heartedly agree! :thumb:
Groovin’ on Thelonious Monk right now …
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So your the guy who beat me to Freo-1's amp! :icon_twisted: :duh:
Nice write up and yes I do concure that the amp grrroooves! :thumb:
Glad to see that you are enjoying it! :D
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Nice write-up brother love. I figured that you would love the MG3. :thumb:
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Happy to hear you are enjoying the TBI, Brother Love.
It (the TBI) is a excellent product at it's price point. The amp will satisfy specific groups of audiophiles, but certainly not everyone. For example, if one has inefficient speakers and likes their music LOUD, then I would suggest looking elseware. Also, if one really wants the detailed texture layers that an SET amp provides,which sports something along the lines of a 300B output tube, the TBI will provide a nice clean open sound, but it will not provide the detailed textured layers of the SET (nor should one expect it to).
Having said that, this product, while not a giant killer (IMHO), is none the less a outstanding value, and is without question worth an audition to those who may be interested.
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TBI Millenia MG3 review
I acquired a TBI Millenia MG3 earlier this week (thanks Freo-1 !) & have seriously listened to it in my system the past 3 days. It has the AMR fuse, Cardas RCA and binding posts, anti resonant gels, & the upgraded power supply.
My 2 channel rig consists of:
GR Research N3 transmission line speakers w/ Sonicap capacitors, Sonicap bypass capacitors & No-Rez internal damping material: 90.5 db sensitivity, 40 Hz -3 db, nominal 8 ohm
Electra Cable twisted/ braided speaker cables
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 w/ Electra Cable power cord
2011 Mac Mini dedicated music server w/ 8 gb ram
JKeny Mk II USB/ SPDIF converter w/ battery & Blue Jeans 75 ohm SPDIF cable & 15 db attenuator
Oppo BDP-83SE DVD/ CD player
Virtue Audio Sensation M-451 int. amp w/ Dodd tube buffer & (2) 12v- 5 amp battery kit
Virtue Audio 1/2 meter RCA IC's
Sound treatment panels: O-C 703 (3) 2’ x 4’ x 2” early reflection, (2) behind speakers, & (2) 2’ x 4’ x 4” bass traps
Dedicated 15 amp circuit to stereo system, Pass & Seymour cryogenically-treated outlet receptacles
17 ft. x 12 ft. x 8 ft. den w/ (3) door openings (no doors)
Rat Shack digital SPL meter
Music media was strictly digital files 16/ 44.1 , 24/96, 24/192 (all .wav files) played thru Decibel.
Listened to many musical genres (jazz, classical, blues, but mainly rock), listening to Black Keys- Brothers as I type this. I selected (2) key cuts to compare the various set-ups: Fishbone- A question of life from Truth & Soul & The Pixies- Hey from Doolittle (2 well know cuts that I have used for many an audition/ shoot-out).
My conclusion: this is one really sweet sounding amp… quite a dynamo that packs a wallop!
My preference was the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 "Dac out" (bypass tube) fed directly to the MG3 utilizing the MG3 volume pot with the MG3 upgraded AC power supply. Fabulous soundstage, uber fine detail, fluid, very dynamic & bass that digs deep. The speakers tended to disappear more w/ this set-up than all others. The GR Research N3 tweeters are B & G planars w/ a small waveguide. They are detailed, but not bright. The MG3 mated extremely well w/ these, never sounded better in fact!
I switched to the Dodd 2- 12v 5 amp battery kit (my preferred way to listen to my Virtue amp), & the MG3 sounded really good, but the AC PS squeezed out a bit more detail particularly on drums & cymbals IMO.
I have always preferred tubes in my electronics. The MG3 has that “tube sound” but w/ so much more detail & speed. Yet I listened for many hours & was never fatigued or weary from extended sessions.
I connected the Dac to "tube out" w/ a Mullard E88CC-01... this tube has a romantic, lush sound w/ spooky good mid range; but it lacked that finer detail. I rolled-in an Amperex 6922 made in Holland which had a more neutral sound. I tried taking the MG3 pot completely out, using only the TubeDAC-11 pot, various settings w/ both pots, but was still left wanting a bit ...
Comparisons were made to the Virtue Audio Sensation M451 w/ Sonicap capacitors, Dodd tube buffer & battery kit ($1,500 retail). I tried the tube buffer “on” & “off” (tube is a Psvane 12AU7-T). Biggest differences were the MG3 w/ AC PS had a bigger soundstage, & again that finer detail, particularly noticeable on lower & upper register extremes. The M451 is much more attractive, built like a tank, has multiple outputs, tube buffer & a remote. By comparison, the MG3 seems cheap & very timid aesthetically; BUT it sounded better in my system.
MG3 pot was at 10 o’clock for my preferred listening volume: 80 db w/ 85 db max peaks. Tried a bit at 92 db level, pot was 12 o’clock. No clipping or strain was evident. The MG3 finer detail capabilities showed-through at lower listening levels as well.
I can’t believe how good the base model MG3 sounds with no battery or tubes! :scratch: This one is a keeper. Thanks Tom & Freo-1 for this excellent recommendation. I whole-heartedly agree! :thumb:
Groovin’ on Thelonious Monk right now …
Congrats on your new amplifier, sounds like it is integrating (pun alert) into your system quite nicely. I find it interesting that you raise a few points that others have mentioned to being important to a well executed Millenia system.
GR Research N3 transmission line speakers w/ Sonicap capacitors, Sonicap bypass capacitors & No-Rez internal damping material: 90.5 db sensitivity, 40 Hz -3 db, nominal 8 ohm
Proper speaker matching is always a key to successful implementation of low power amplifiers, heck even higher powered ones too. I have had the chance to listen to a few of Danny Ritchie's designs, and thought the Millenia and his speakers would be a great pairing. Seems to be so in your case. Attributes like decent efficiency, excellent crossover, and high quality drivers go a long way to showing the positive side of the Millenia.
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 w/ Electra Cable power cord
Tom feels that you need one pair of tubes in a system to get the texture and layering that valves excel at. I believe he also does this at the source component, as you are doing. Seems like a recipe for success to.
I tried taking the MG3 pot completely out, using only the TubeDAC-11 pot, various settings w/ both pots, but was still left wanting a bit ...
A few of us have said that the Millenia worked best in their system as a stand alone unit, with volume control taken care of by the amp's pot. Seems to be so in your case also. This appears to be the beginnings of a trend, and something for future auditioners of the amp to consider.
Once again, congrats on your new amp, sounds like it fits your system quite nicely.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Thanks rodge827, OzarkTom, Freo-1 & Mister Pig for your kind words. All of your excellent & informative TBI Millenia MG3 reviews & commentary intrigued me to give this one an audition.
I have been a budget audiophile for 35 yrs. now & love the journey to audio nirvana. It can be a long road with lots of twists & turns (& likely a dead end or two); but ultimately you find a sweet spot, or at least a happy medium of budget/ equipment synergy/ room limitations. It’s all about getting caught up in the music that stirs the soul.
As Mister Pig noted prior re: tubes ... I am in the camp of “tubes required” somewhere in the component chain. To my ears, the majority of “solid state only” systems exhibit some form of harshness/ glare that detracts from my personal musical enjoyment (different strokes for different folks though).
The TBI Millenia MG3 is one of those rare instances where with the right equipment, tubes are not required. 8)
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The TBI Millenia MG3 is one of those rare instances where with the right equipment, tubes are not required. 8)
So true! :D
I hope to have one in my system soon. 8)
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I wonder if the Teddy Pardo PSU could be a alternative for those who don't want to mess with battery?
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When I think back to the months I spent with the N1X, it's easy to see why the TBI and the N3 would make a great pairing. You get a very pleasant sounding, detailed amp combined with the almost luxuriously detailed Neo tweeter and Danny Richie Crossover. Probably excellent with electronic music, jazz, rock, anything with a rich texture. The N's don't need a lot of power either.
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I hope every one here had a safe and happy Thanksgiving.
I guess we should get this tour back on track. The hold-up has been the holidays and Morgan had to leave town. An AMR fuse was sent to him and hopefully he has received it by now. If you have any questions Morgan on which fuse to replace, feel free to ask.
About two weeks ago I received a pair of $25K speakers that is 4 ohm and 84db efficiency. These are the lowest distortion and grain free speakers that I have ever heard. So how does the TBI sound on them? Incredible.
The speakers are so grain-free, my AC glare has completely disappeared. This was very educational for me. I never thought that owning the right speaker could ever clear up AC glare. I have tried several tube amps, but on these ultra-linear speakers the TBI is claerly more faster, transparent and detailed.
So now I have a $32K system being driven by a TBI MG3 amplifier.:o
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And what's the speaker?
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I hope every one here had a safe and happy Thanksgiving.
I guess we should get this tour back on track. The hold-up has been the holidays and Morgan had to leave town. An AMR fuse was sent to him and hopefully he has received it by now. If you have any questions Morgan on which fuse to replace, feel free to ask.
About two weeks ago I received a pair of $25K speakers that is 4 ohm and 84db efficiency. These are the lowest distortion and grain free speakers that I have ever heard. So how does the TBI sound on them? Incredible.
The speakers are so grain-free, my AC glare has completely disappeared. This was very educational for me. I never thought that owning the right speaker could ever clear up AC glare. I have tried several tube amps, but on these ultra-linear speakers the TBI is claerly more faster, transparent and detailed.
So now I have a $32K system being driven by a TBI MG3 amplifier.:o
What reference amp do you pair with those $25k speakers that you compare the Millenia with?
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What reference amp do you pair with those $25k speakers that you compare the Millenia with?
The JOLIDA JD 3000A Tube Mono Block Amplifiers and a $8800 custom Set amp.
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Interesting thread that has changed my attitude toward audio nirvana.
I have a plethora of IceBlock mono amps, Eastern Electric integrated, vintage Crown amps, Anthem power houses, Vandersteen Maggie etc and a modded TBI. A houseful of a lifetime of buying.
I stress and switch stuff around and buy a new cable or more room acoustics and have come to realize I have several really good sounds and they are all quite close in quality.
What I have found and it is liberating is that I am off the amp , DAC and speaker merry go round for good because my system sounds very good and it is enough. Liberating.
My little TBI integrated , Audio by VanStine DAC and SAM 1 monitors from AJ are better than good enough they are a sweet sounding rig. And all of the other stuff can be inserted at will for fun.
Back to the point that it feels great to be off the buying merry go round and not stressing over 5 more percent of audio nirvana.
Well until Seth brings out the new Virtue stuff.
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The JOLIDA JD 3000A Tube Mono Block Amplifiers and a $8800 custom Set amp.
Sorry if I've missed this, but are you saying that the Millenia beats your $8800 amp or that it's one of the best amps for the price?
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I am not here to make any excuses for the TBI, but in my 32 years experience, I never heard a solid state amp to tame the AMT Heil tweeters. In fact, I never heard any tube amps tame it.
A close friend of mine back in the early 80's used those tweeters, but they were heavily modified. He was more of a solid state fan than a tube fan when I was a dealer, I took numerous solid state amps over, Acoustat, Bedini, Sumo, Bryston, Threshold, Perraux, and more, but those tweeters always burned my ears off. We finally tried Marantz 8B's, that came the closest, but I always heard the metallic sound of those metal drivers. I wound up taking in a couple of pairs of the ESS AMt-1B speakers over the years, and I never had any luck in taming those highs or the boomy bass.
Speed forward to the RMAF 2011 audio show and lo and behold, the Heil rep was staying the same hotel my wife and I were. I guess I had figured this company was no longer, but I was wrong. I hunted down their room, figuring by now they had tamed the high end. I stepped into their room and was out of there in three seconds. If I had stay any longer, I would have had a splitting headache.
On Heil tweeters, SS is still definitely a no-go IMO, no matter how expensive of an amp you try.
Tom, the Heil is NOT a metal driver. All AMTs use some kind of film material with metal strips bonded so the fold rapidly within the intense magnetic field. It is essentially a mylar/kapton/some type of thin film substance. The better ones use better film material.
Oh and by the way, ESS is NOT "Heil". The only Heil company is Heil AMT from Switzerland, known as Oskar in the US.
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Sorry if I've missed this, but are you saying that the Millenia beats your $8800 amp or that it's one of the best amps for the price?
In comparison to photography, the TBI gives me about a 18MP photo where the tube amps is more of a 10MP photo. The tube amps are more grainy, rolled off in the high end, and a little wooly in the bass. That is the character of tube amps with transformers. Also, the TBI is definitely quicker.
Now if anything is lean and bright in your system, the TBI is not going to sugarcoat it and make it wamer.
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In comparison to photography, the TBI gives me about a 18MP photo where the tube amps is more of a 10MP photo. The tube amps are more grainy, rolled off in the high end, and a little wooly in the bass. That is the character of tube amps with transformers. Also, the TBI is definitely quicker.
Now if anything is lean and bright in your system, the TBI is not going to sugarcoat it and make it warmer.
I mostly agree with Tom's view on the TBI, but I'll throw out the following caveats:
The TBI is somewhat speaker dependant, so the wrong speaker will come across with some grain and glare. The right speakers will generally sound excellent, with a very open soundstage, and just a bit of extra presence (similar to,but not quite like a tube amp).
Also, if you listen to a lot of heavy classical music (think Mahler's 5th), one may find on loud passages that massed strings/horns may have an edge to them that does not sound entirely natural. However, play something along the lines of Cannonball Adderly's "Something Else", and you will be floored with the performance. For the majority of music, this amp is very musical.
Now, keep in mind that these are the only issues I've noticed with the Millenia. I'm still keen on this amp, and at it's price point, is truly top performer. For anyone in the market for a high quality lower powered amp (especially on a budget), it deserves a serious audition.
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I agree with Freo-1 in a way, classical can get strident, but I feel it is the recording itself. I have several cuts with orchestras that you will never hear a more natural sound in your life. Many of the older recordings are done with tube mics and I have never heard any problems with these classical recordings being played with the TBI amp.
If you ever expect Telarc recordings to sound natual with any neutral amp, you are wasting your time. I spoke with a recording engineer from Telarc back in the 80's and he told me why their recordings never were that great. It was from bad digital mics and recording techniques.
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Based on my tinkering with the TBI chip and similar they are extremely sensitive to power supply caps. If at all possible I would recommend to both increasing the cap value (not too much though) and trying different types like Elna Silmic, Cerafine, Nichicon FG, etc. This goes for both the caps by the chip as well as the input voltage. Considering some of the mods being done already by some it is worth doing/having done and the caps are inexpensive compared to typical audio mods surely. This may help with any remaining glare as well as up the sound quality in general. Can't overstate how sensitive these TPA chips and similar are in this regard.
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Based on my tinkering with the TBI chip and similar they are extremely sensitive to power supply caps. If at all possible I would recommend to both increasing the cap value (not too much though) and trying different types like Elna Silmic, Cerafine, Nichicon FG, etc. This goes for both the caps by the chip as well as the input voltage. Considering some of the mods being done already by some it is worth doing/having done and the caps are inexpensive compared to typical audio mods surely. This may help with any remaining glare as well as up the sound quality in general. Can't overstate how sensitive these TPA chips and similar are in this regard.
Jan told me the input caps are .47uf films and the front headphone jack is really a 3.5mm input jack with the same characteristics as the rear RCA jacks, in case some DIY'ers here needs to know.
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"... However, play something along the lines of Cannonball Adderly's "Something Else", and you will be floored with the performance. For the majority of music, this amp is very musical. "
Excellent choice Freo-1, I love this album ! "Autumn Leaves" is a standard cut I use for auditions/ reviews of equipment incl. the TBI Millenia MG3. Miles Davis & Cannonball Adderley have really tasteful, laid back solos; but Art Blakey's drum work, specifically brush strokes & light cymbal action are great sonic textures to enjoy & evaluate equipment subtleties.
I totally agree the MG3 shines w/ this source material particularly since there is a "hissy" high end background on the opening of Autumn Leaves likely due to volumes being cranked-up on the sound board to pick up subtle details. This can be very harsh with some components, downright unlistenable; but not w/ the MG3. 8)
Which leads me to another point... I hate pronounced sibiliance from any audio equipment or source material. The MG3 is like a tube amp in greatly minimizing this annoying characteristic.
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I agree with Freo-1 in a way, classical can get strident, but I feel it is the recording itself. I have several cuts with orchestras that you will never hear a more natural sound in your life. Many of the older recordings are done with tube mics and I have never heard any problems with these classical recordings being played with the TBI amp.
If you ever expect Telarc recordings to sound natual with any neutral amp, you are wasting your time. I spoke with a recording engineer from Telarc back in the 80's and he told me why their recordings never were that great. It was from bad digital mics and recording techniques.
Tom, Telarc has cleaned up their game over the last few years. One of the absolute best recordings I own is this one:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71574)
This is absolutely incredible sounding on SACD. I also have a very recent Telarc recording of the Nutcracker from the same symphony that sounds excellent. So, it's not the recordings at issue. I think it's the speaker's interaction with the amp. Why just heavy symphonic music is like this, when just about everthing else sounds great, is a mystery at this juncture.
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So true! :D
I hope to have one in my system soon. 8)
I've been hoarding the tour MG3 for the last few weeks and am loving it so far. I agree that it has many tube like qualities and it really shines in my system which is a Mac Mini--Audiphileo-->metrum Octave--> Alnic L-3000-->MG3-->Zu Definitions. Tonight I'm comparing it to an Art Audio PX-25. The MG3 is a bit more laid back than the PX-25, but it does have much of the realism, large soundstage, and live like quality of my set amps. Considering the price differential, it is a pretty amazing bang for the buck amplifier. Without A\B ing the amps (I have a Coincident Frankenstein 300 in addition to the PX-25), I've enjoyed the MG3 since I first plugged her in. With a direct comparison to these top of the line SET's she comes up a bit short on soundstage width and depth, and is a bit more laid back than I would prefer,but overall, especially of vocals the Millenium does a lot of things very well. If you are a vocal fan, then this amp competes very well with the best SET's! I'll try to do a better comparison tomorrow. Any song requests? Questions?
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Yes,
Karen Carpenter: Yesterday once more, Only Yesterday and Calling occupants of interstellar craft.
Barb Streisand: Have yourself a merry little Christmas
Mormon Tabernacle Choir: Hallelujah and Onto us a child is born.
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If you have it Morgan, also check out Boz Scaggs, Speak Low CD. It is a killer on the vocals. I also enjoy this song very much, "God Bless the Child" - Jill Scott, Al Jarreau, George Benson collaboration. The TBI shines greatly on this song.
Buddy Holly's "TRue Love Ways" with the Ray Rllis Orchestra is really incredible. This is one of the most natural orchestra recordings that I have ever listened to. Even Duke of Audiokinesis wanted to steal that one off of me when I was in Dallas at the LSAF in 2010. One big reason for the quality back in 1958, they used the most famous tube mics of all time, the AKG C12. This original 1953 tube mic is still sought after by many recording studios today. AKG finally reproduced this mic and sells it for $5K, but many in the industry stills prefer the original.
I picked up the Barbara Streisand Christmas CD today for 5 bucks at Wally world, so I will check out that Barbara Streisand cut later tonight.
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Unfortunately I don't have any of these songs:(. I will pick a few favs and go from there.......
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Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm
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Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm
And well deserved it is! :thumb:
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Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm)
+1.
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Not to change the subject, but Tri-Art Audio from Canada has recently switched from the Tri-Path chip to the same TI chip that TBI is using. Below is the Avatar Acoustics room at RMAF using all Tri-Art electronics except the AMR DP777 Dac. 6moons gave this room one of the best at the show with the new Avalon loudspeakers. If you know how picky Darren from Avatar is, you know that these amps are great also. Tri-Art uses concrete cabinets and sells their 25 watter for $1995.
Or buy the TBI for $500 and build your own concrete cabinets. :thumb:
(http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/taves2012_2/40.jpg)
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I will test the TBI amp over the holidays on a pair of 100db DIY speakers my pal has (in France). I will also demo his Mytek DAC vs my Lampizator L4 Dac and use PCM and DSD files via a MB Air computer with a Lindemann DDC and an iFi Audio iUSB power. Should be fun.
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The TBI amp just showed up, I will unpack it and test it out soon, thanks for the opportunity to check it out!
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Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm
Well deserved. Thanks Tom for the article.
morganc, any final impressions forthcoming ?
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Yes, I've just been too busy before the holidays to type my thoughts up, but I will have more to come soon. Though, now I will say again that this is a killer amp for $500. :thumb:
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I would love to see a shootout with the other budget marvel, the NuForce DDA-100, which is a power DAC.
A discussion about the different design approaches taken would be interesting.
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Hooked it up with the SMPS this morning, and wow!... this is an amazing piece of equipment for the price. Does it come close to my Aikido/EL34 SET? Almost!... but my amps have about $2k in parts in them, just the one set of coupling caps cost 1/2 as much as the TBI.
Anyway, the TBI gets at least 90% of the way there vs. my amps and it has a lot more power than an EL34 SET. Using my Schiit Bifrost DAC as the source at the standard 2V RMS output the TBI's volume control is at 9 o'clock for dBs in the mid 90's or so.
I'll be switching back and forth with the amps a bit and will post more impressions, but I have to say Ozark Tom was right, this is a ridiculous bargain and I don't think "Giant Killer" is much of an overstatement. The differences between this $500 amp (ok, more with the mods) and a $5000 amp could only be justified by a fairly wealthy and picky individual. I'm not sure, but I'd guess the TBI would be as good or even a better choice than most tube amps built to a reasonable price point.
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Volume tracking is off, there's a 1-2 dB more coming from the right speaker. I don't have a meter, so that's just a guess. As you turn down the pot the left channel switches off before the right as well. So the soundstage is off center just a little bit, more at low volumes. For now I have Foobar's preamp set to -20dB, which helps. I feel like this amp could use a passive preamp, maybe even a zero gain tube buffer to get a decent volume control and source selection. I'd guess a better volume control would improve the sound quality as well. I can't find specs for input sensitivity, but I'm guessing it's pretty low based on how low I have to have the volume control set. I was going to try driving it with the Aikido but adding 20 dB more gain is really excessive. I might try it anyway since the Aikido has it's own volume control...
It is nice having an amp with plenty of power though, it plays clean at high volumes and has plenty of headroom with my speakers. The sound quality is really very good, usually digital amps annoy me after a while, but the TBI seems to have eliminated that for the most part... I still feel there is more listening fatigue vs my SET, but it is also true the Omega single drivers have a somewhat forward sound. The imaging and soundstage are very comparable to what my SET produces, the speakers disappear with this amp running them, which is good.
I also have a Trends T-amp, which has gotten some good reviews. The Trends isn't even in the same league as the TBI and comparison would be ridiculous, but here goes... The Trends is harsh by comparison and after a short while you're turning the volume way down or reaching for the off switch. The Trends doesn't make the speakers disappear like a good amp should, and there's always the feeling that something is just off... which it is. The TBI is much closer to my SET in sound quality compared to the trends, which is very, very far off.
It does seem like this amp is an anomaly for the price, assuming you have speakers that work with the amp you might have to spend A LOT more money to get anything better, and I'd bet it's possible you could spend 2-3x the price for an inferior amp. I think TBI should put out a higher end version with a nicer chassis, volume control and source selection :green:
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LOL, I bet TBI is working hard on a pricier version this very moment, if not several. I'm sure he never guessed after 4 years that amp would get plucked out of obscurity and become an audiophile darling...
@Dave - very accurate description of the Tripath sound via the Trends. Those chips just sound not quite right.
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Not sure if it's been done yet or not but wondering if anyone has compared this to tube integrated amps under the $1000 (maybe a little more) dollar mark that are rated pretty highly. I'm considering Vista Audio, Primaluna, Eastern Electric, Napa Acoustics but wondering if this would be the better bang for the buck, I've lately had an affinity towards tubes.
Trying to get the something to power my tektons that will be a clear upgrade over my vintage tubes I had before.
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I tried the TBI out with the Aikido driving it, and it made for a nice improvement, subtle but worthwhile. The music is easier to listen to with the Aikido in place, it adds some texture and reduces some of the harshness in the high freqs that cause fatigue. The Aikido tested out to ~.05% THD and freq response is ruler flat, so it's not adding much 2nd order distortion. So I would say that a tube buffer with a good volume control and source selection would be a great addition to the TBI as long as the tube section isn't going to color the music much. I think you'd need a really good pre or it could make things worse.
Next, I switched back to the EL34 SET, the Aikido drives it directly so there's no driver section in the amp.... just EL34s (I'm using Gold Lion KT77s right now) vs the TBI. Again, the TBI is close, but there's a really noticeable improvement going back to the SET, the soundstage is bigger and more 3D, tonality of vocals and instruments is more real, and the excitement factor is up a couple notches, the music just draws you in more with the SET.
The SET I own is built with high end parts, the power supply is all Clarity TC series film caps with a custom electraprint choke. The OPTs are James. This would be a very expensive amp, probably in the $3k range retail. Same with the Aikido preamp... so the fact that the TBI did as good as it did going up against gear that cost many times more was actually a shock, it's hard to believe the value for the money this amp offers. I was expecting something much closer to the performance level of my Trends T-amp, and as I said, it was closer to the SET than the Trends.
One suggestion is the Cardas binding posts are pretty big and clunky for a small amp and don't have a hole in the post for bare wire connections, I'd go with the Pomona 3770 gold plated copper posts instead and save some cash too, they are about $36 for 4.
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Thank you Dave for such a detailed reiew and for joining the tour. For those that dream of high priced SET amps and tube pre-amps that they just cannot afford, the TBI is a great alternatie.
I have compared the TBI to the 40 watt Jolida 202CRC integrated at about $1K, and the TBI is much more open and detailed. If the tube amp is conventional Class AB, I believe that the TBI will beat it.
Now who's next?
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I could not agree more!
:)
Tried to like the Dalaudio a lot but kept coming back to the TBI.. Not going to worry about this anymore!
Thank you Dave for such a detailed reiew and for joining the tour. For those that dream of high priced SET amps and tube pre-amps that they just cannot afford, the TBI is a great alternatie.
I have compared the TBI to the 40 watt Jolida 202CRC integrated at about $1K, and the TBI is much more open and detailed. If the tube amp is conventional Class AB, I believe that the TBI will beat it.
Now who's next?
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Volume tracking is off, there's a 1-2 dB more coming from the right speaker. I don't have a meter, so that's just a guess. As you turn down the pot the left channel switches off before the right as well. So the soundstage is off center just a little bit, more at low volumes. For now I have Foobar's preamp set to -20dB, which helps. I feel like this amp could use a passive preamp, maybe even a zero gain tube buffer to get a decent volume control and source selection. I'd guess a better volume control would improve the sound quality as well. I can't find specs for input sensitivity, but I'm guessing it's pretty low based on how low I have to have the volume control set. I was going to try driving it with the Aikido but adding 20 dB more gain is really excessive. I might try it anyway since the Aikido has it's own volume control...
It is nice having an amp with plenty of power though, it plays clean at high volumes and has plenty of headroom with my speakers. The sound quality is really very good, usually digital amps annoy me after a while, but the TBI seems to have eliminated that for the most part... I still feel there is more listening fatigue vs my SET, but it is also true the Omega single drivers have a somewhat forward sound. The imaging and soundstage are very comparable to what my SET produces, the speakers disappear with this amp running them, which is good.
I also have a Trends T-amp, which has gotten some good reviews. The Trends isn't even in the same league as the TBI and comparison would be ridiculous, but here goes... The Trends is harsh by comparison and after a short while you're turning the volume way down or reaching for the off switch. The Trends doesn't make the speakers disappear like a good amp should, and there's always the feeling that something is just off... which it is. The TBI is much closer to my SET in sound quality compared to the trends, which is very, very far off.
It does seem like this amp is an anomaly for the price, assuming you have speakers that work with the amp you might have to spend A LOT more money to get anything better, and I'd bet it's possible you could spend 2-3x the price for an inferior amp. I think TBI should put out a higher end version with a nicer chassis, volume control and source selection :green:
Hi Dave,
My experiences with the TBI parallel what you have heard also. I think the MG3 is a killer amp at its price point, but it is not perfect. I also find that my Electra Print 300 Custom SET and PVA pre-amp is better in the areas described, but the cost is substantially higher. Heck a pair of the Sophia Carbon Princess cost more than the TBI amp itself.
I still feel there is more listening fatigue vs my SET, but it is also true the Omega single drivers have a somewhat forward sound.
This is a point I would want to mention though. I use a pair of Sachiko Double Horn speakers with first generation Fostex 208 Sigma drivers. I think the single driver speakers are better suited for SET amplification than the TBI is. It is not that tthe TBI/Single Driver combo sounds bad in any respect, but its probably not the most synergistic match. The TBI needs a speaker that does not have some of the peakiness in the upper mids that a full range driver does, and perhaps a bit smoother high frequency curve. I bet a pair of LS3/5A monitors of any iteration would be magical on the TBI. Or perhaps one of the entry level Tannoy dual concentric speakers. But for single driver speakers SET will always be the King.
I do concur that the TBI is a wonderful amplifier, I cannot think of a better way to get into high quality audio playback for short green than this amp.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Thanks to Dave and Mr. Pig for some insightful observations with the TBI. I also noticed that the TBI performance is improved with the tubed C/J clone preamp as opposed to direct from the source.
Jan informed me about a recommendation for the TBI when listening to classical music. It seems that the TBI will perfrom smoother with less glare when powered by a good 12 V battery vice a 24 V source. Sure enough, this again is sage advice (provided your speakers can support the reduced power). The sound is cleaner with the 12 V source on classical, no question.
While the TBI is not going to replace the Pass Labs XA 30.5 as my reference, it is a outstanding value at it's price point, and with the right speakers, will provide much enjoyment.
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Where is this tour at now?
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Hi,
Just hooked up the TBI two days ago, and haven't had a chance to spend much time with it yet. So far operating off of AC and sounds very good.
Stephen
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Has anyone tried the TBI as a headphone amp with orthodynamic headphones like the Hifiman HE-400 or He-500?
Seems like it might make an excellent option for headphones.
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Another improvement in my system and the TBI reveals that improvement. :thumb:
I have the IUSB in my system from IFI Micro. If you are using USB from your Dac, this is probably the best improvement you can make for $200. It even makes my $5K AMR Dac sound more analog while passing through more information. :scratch:
You hear much more hall ambiance. This was a very big surprise. My AMR now sounds like a totally different Dac.
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Another improvement in my system and the TBI reveals that improvement. :thumb:
I have the IUSB in my system from IFI Micro. If you are using USB from your Dac, this is probably the best improvement you can make for $200. It even makes my $5K AMR Dac sound more analog while passing through more information. :scratch:
You hear much more hall ambiance. This was a very big surprise. My AMR now sounds like a totally different Dac.
It always comes back to the power supply. Never heard of these guys before. Thanks for the heads up.
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It always comes back to the power supply. Never heard of these guys before. Thanks for the heads up.
IFI Micro is a new division of AMR. Keep watch for a lot of rave reviews on their new cheap and cheerful components.
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I am anxious to order the new IFI Gemini Dual Head USB cable which is said to further better the performance of the IUSB. This will be out later this year. The cable looks to be a very interesting design.
https://www.facebook.com/iFiAudio/posts/215026178631142#!/notes/ifi-audio/ifi-gemini-dual-headed-usb-cable/483148201720927
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Another improvement in my system and the TBI reveals that improvement. :thumb:
I have the IUSB in my system from IFI Micro. If you are using USB from your Dac, this is probably the best improvement you can make for $200. It even makes my $5K AMR Dac sound more analog while passing through more information. :scratch:
You hear much more hall ambiance. This was a very big surprise. My AMR now sounds like a totally different Dac.
LoL
I have been the biggest iFi booster here for months now. Their philosophy and implementation just makes sense!
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I am anxious to order the new IFI Gemini Dual Head USB cable which is said to further better the performance of the IUSB. This will be out later this year. The cable looks to be a very interesting design.
https://www.facebook.com/iFiAudio/posts/215026178631142#!/notes/ifi-audio/ifi-gemini-dual-headed-usb-cable/483148201720927
End Feb., unfortunately, as I am champing at the bit for one. See my post from CA here:
Check out the soon to be released iFi Audio Gemini cable. I can be used as a straight USB cable or with the twin heads with the iUSB power. It apparently exceeds USB standards in some areas.
Excerpts:
Many USB DAC's or other USB Audio devices draw power from the USB bus for some functions (regardless of price).
This is the raison d'être for our iUSB Power supply. The USB cable complements and extends this and maximises system performance.
If you are 100% sure that your DAC does not use USB Bus power at all than you are lucky enough not to need any of this and you can use a normal cable.
Or you can use our Gemini Cable and just not connect the power section at all, or connect it and enjoy even lower ground resistance.
==========================
The Gemini Dual-Headed USB cable will ship in short/long lengths. The pricing will be in-line with the rest of the iFi range. Our beta testers have pitched the Gemini Dual-Headed cable against cables all the way up to 10x the price. Let's just say the Big Guns went home crying 'mummy'. Another iFi product with 'off the chart' performance!
=================================
iFi Audio's Notes
iFi Gemini Dual Headed USB Cable
Sunday
Features
Dual-headed (Gemini) connection USB design
Asymmetric Ground return and power line design (3 times more ground area)*
Adjustable RF Filter to tune cable to environment*
Multiple RF filters*
Heavy OFHC continues cast copper (up to 5A)
Double shields with different effective range
Custom PE insulation
*: iFi exclusive, world first.
=====================
Q: People like Steve Nugent say that 1.5m is the ideal length. O.5m is too short, so I pick 1 and 1.5m!
Monday at 9:11pm · Like
A: (iFi Audio) ‘Ideal’ length/s is NOT relevant for USB signal transfer... this comes from SPDIF and is only valid in cases where impedance mismatches occur. For High-Speed USB it simply either works or it does not. The Gemini USB-Cable strictly adheres to 90 ohm throughout which is one key USB.org specification (among many other things). Therefore, you only have to select the relevant length/s to suit your needs!
===========
The reason why some "handmade" USB Cables do not work with the iUSB is simple, they are not of sufficiently accurate impedance.
With a single short cable this is less damaging and the makers of such contraptions often can almost get away with murder.
However, as with the iUSB Power you in effect couple two cables together. In this case, if one cable has correct USB Impedance (e.g. the short blue tail included with the device) and the other has a different impedance additional reflections (on top of those at both ends of the cable) will be generated.
And even a robust system data transmission system like USB will eventually experience packet loss...
Sadly, the more expensive and exotic a cable is the less likely it is to be mass produced on machinery made for precisely mass producing USB spec cables.
It's not that we do not know how to make better USB cables, the problem is modifying standard cables for improved performance in ways that are compatible with industrial production methods and then finding someone to make such cables in moderate quantities.
=====================
Hi, sonic differences are indistinguishable between the shortest and longest. They all adhere to the strict USB data transfer standards (why we can offer longer lengths). Please see the 'iFi Gemini Notes' for an in-depth outline of how+why the Gemini USB cable differs.
=============
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IFI Micro is a new division of AMR. Keep watch for a lot of rave reviews on their new cheap and cheerful components.
My buddy in Boston sent me a rave review of the iPhono product which costs $399. Said it beats his $5,000 phono stage.
He was so impressed he bought another (before they get sensible and raise the price) plus the iUSB power and the iDac, even though he already has a L4 Lampizator Dac and a killer Emerald Physics 2.7 setup.
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Hi,
Just hooked up the TBI two days ago, and haven't had a chance to spend much time with it yet. So far operating off of AC and sounds very good.
Stephen
Any thoughts to post?
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It was written in one of the posts that the owner of TBI suggested powering the amp with one 12 volt battery for less grainy sound.
Out of curiosity, I did try and it did remove the grainy effect which I was not liking and made the sound much more smoother
Ofcourse the dynamics suffered as my speakers are 87db efficient.
I will soon get the upgrade package which my relative is carrying for me and after that hopefully the TBI will be mated to Rethm Saadhnas which a friend owns :D
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whats in the upgrade package?
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whats in the upgrade package?
Not sure as its still not in my hands.
But as far as i know its some upgrade to power supply
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Upgrade to the third party battery pack or to the AC power supply input in the amp that TBI does?
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Upgrade to the third party battery pack or to the AC power supply input in the amp that TBI does?
Power supply input
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Power supply input
Jan offers the power supply upgrade. There are other mods available. PM me for details. I just received a unit from Jan. I am going to try it in my two, very different systems.
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Took a leap and bought the TBI without hearing it first based on the reviews here and positive feedback... Very glad I did. I come from a restored vintage tube background (not sets like a lot of people here). It blows all of the vintage tubes I've heard away by quite a bit. perfect with my Tekton M-Lores. I'd be surprised if any system could out perform this at this price point.
I listen to a lot of Lo-fi (Blues, Primitive folk, jazz etc.) music and this system simply presents it like it is, no better or worse. In my other systems I felt like it made the recordings sound overly thin and extremely harsh.
Not an official audiophile review (I'm not an official audiophile, and don't plan to be one) but hopefully this will help anyone that is skeptical pull the trigger for a budget system. I was ready to spend at least double on a set, but ended up picking the TBI. I'd be pretty surprised if I could have done better on my budget.
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In other words, for someone that would rather spend the money on his music collection, this is a perfect way to spend your money and have a little extra for record digging.
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Trying to finish up listening to the TBI but must have a blown fuse from having the charger on with the battery power supply connected to the amp. Can anyone help with which fuse to replace and with what?
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I put spare fuses in there from when it failed, I had extras. Look in the boxes.
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Thanks, I'll do that as soon as I'm home.
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Trying to finish up listening to the TBI but must have a blown fuse from having the charger on with the battery power supply connected to the amp. Can anyone help with which fuse to replace and with what?
Yep. Go to Radio Shack and get yourself a 4A fast blow 125V bag of fuses, and you will be right. 8)
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Thanks.
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Need some help - why do I blow the fuse on the amp when I reconnect my battery?
Jeff
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Jeff, do you have your battery charger connected? Seems I recall that is a no-no and will blow the fuse.
Randy
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No - I disconnect the charger and put the correct adapter end on the cables from the battery
and plug the jack in the back of the amp.
I wonder if somehow I am using the wrong hook up for this.
Can you share what you use from the battery to the amp?
EDIT - I just checked that after a charge on the batteries I am at 27V. Could that be the issue?
Jeff
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Sorry Jeff, I've never got my BatteryBuss to pwr the amp correctly, so I'm no help on that front. I recall reading that the TBI cannot see more than 24v or it will blow the fuse.....
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Actually, it more like 27V. Check the output with a meter (if you have one). As long as it's 26 or less, it should be OK. Make sure the power is OFF when you connect it p to the battery.
The RED light means it has a bad connection, which usually is closely followed by popping the fuse. Feel free to send a PM if you continue to have issues.
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I do get the red light. Hmmm
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OK no problem running with 12v - so I guess mine is a little sensitive to the 27.x volts.
I guess we'll see how 13.5v sounds.
Jeff
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Finally paired the TBI amp with the Rethm Saadhnas. Source used was EMT 938 TT
Amp in comparison was a 2A3 SET made by an Indian manufacturer called Lyrita Audio which has Dave Slagle transformers. It works as a power amp and pre used was Dave Slagle Passive pre. The price of the amp is $4500
My TBI has upgraded fuse and speaker connectors.
No power supply upgrade has been done as of now.
Used the TBI with a single 12 volt battery as its more then enough to power the Saadhnas. TBI used its own volume control i.e. no other pre
The sound had all the details but was sounding too analytical in comparision to the 2A3 SET. Also the vocals and the bass did not have that texture and liveliness which the 2A3 could produce.
The most surprising part was that the soundstage absolutely collapsed specially in the depth (I had assumed that atleast in this department it will give the 2A3 SET a run for its money)
Overall it could not come close to the said 2A3 SET but still the sound was good enough for the price of the TBI. So for me it sure is a VFM but a step down to very good SET amp
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Did you try it with the AC plug???
Even if you think 12wpc is enuff, the speaker may be causing the amp to clip slightly and dynamics will be compromised...
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Did you try it with the AC plug???
Even if you think 12wpc is enuff, the speaker may be causing the amp to clip slightly and dynamics will be compromised...
Hi winson
Did not try with AC plug as it sounded inferior to battery power in my setup.
The 2A3 gives out power of 3 watts so 12 watts should ideally be enough. Also had read that the sound would be more smoother with a single 12 volt battery.
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If you dont mind, please give it a try and report back.
Thanks
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That is odd that the soundstage collapsed. :scratch:
On the Rethm Maarga's here at my place, that is one of the strong points of the amp. It actually produces a bigger soundstage than the two SET amps that I have tried on the Maargas.
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That is odd that the soundstage collapsed. :scratch:
On the Rethm Maarga's here at my place, that is one of the strong points of the amp. It actually produces a bigger soundstage than the two SET amps that I have tried on the Maargas.
Maybe not. He is using 12V, not 24V. That could be the reason.
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Maybe not. He is using 12V, not 24V. That cold be the reason.
I have tried both 12v and 24v on the Maarga's, no problem here. Battery quality could be a factor though.
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Jan had mentioned that using the amp in 12 volt operation to reduce any glare required a strong battery.
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That is odd that the soundstage collapsed. :scratch:
On the Rethm Maarga's here at my place, that is one of the strong points of the amp. It actually produces a bigger soundstage than the two SET amps that I have tried on the Maargas.
Hi Tom
Even I was really surprised. The depth of the soundstage just disappeared :cry: and it shrunk quiet a bit in width as well.
But this did not happen in my listening room.
I will still try the amp again with the Saadhnas after doing the PS mods
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The 24V battey system will sound about 40% better than the AC power supply, probably 15 % better than a 12V.
A close fiend, Rex has one also, and he did a Cardas speaker binding post mod that improved the sound by another 30%.
Other mods we have done is to use the AMR fuse that sells for $20. That makes about a 3-5% improvement depending on your system.
And another 10% improvement came with using the drum gel pads underneath the amp. out of the house, just slip this in your reference system. Then you will have to buy a second one.
85% improvement?! WOW! i might think you were exaggerating a bit if you said 110%
here is the best deal on 2-12V batteries for $15.92.
that is a pretty good deal! was imagining getting a couple cheap car batteries or some lithium ions, but neither option would be that cheap. it's nice when a significant mod is reasonably priced. i already have a 12v smart charger too i could put to use.
i just joined this forum to see some more reviews other than the TNT shootout where it outdid "giant killing" dayens ampino & trends amps and the positive feedback full review. i'm looking for something a little more liquid sounding than my panasonic class D receiver and as trends supposedly sounds better than that in a big shootout at stereomojo, and the TBI spanks that, it sounds like a $500 no brainer upgrade instead of a gainclone or KingRex.
it's a shame this amp doesn't have more word of mouth if it truly is as musical AND detailed as described.
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85% improvement?! WOW!
ROFL :lol:
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Something that should be noted about the TBI is that it is still in production and maintaining comfortable pricing. We've all seen other small amps, class T etc, enter the market, attract a following and interest and then go out of production very quickly. Some others have stayed in production but upped the pricing considerably, even with different parts. The easy modding path is another plus.
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The TBI, like IFI Audio products, Nuforce DDA-100, Dspeaker AM 2.0 and Vinatoo speakers are true "hero" products that help to spread the hobby beyond an elite circle.
Kudos to them.
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The TBI, like IFI Audio products, Nuforce DDA-100, Dspeaker AM 2.0 and Vinatoo speakers are true "hero" products that help to spread the hobby beyond an elite circle.
Kudos to them.
+1 :thumb:
I'm dumbfounded at how good some of these pieces that have brought the fun back into this hobby, and at very reasonable prices!
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Just finished a generous amount of time with the TBI. Since the Super V requires a sub ouput, it was necessary to leave the tube buffer in front of the TBI, with buffer outputs to the sub amps and to the TBI. This required having the tube buffer volume at about 9 and the TBI volume at about 3. Swapping in the TBI for a Clayton Audio S40 50W per channel class A SS amp. All three power sources were used, and the TBI AC supply, 24v battery, and internal AA battery supplies all provided way more than adequate power. You could blow the doors off with AA Energizers. Power was not a problem. Super V rated at 97dB sensitivity.
The AC power supply was eliminated pretty quickly. This provided a more flat, mechanical sound than the battery power. I was not as interested in using the AA internal batteries, so I checked them out primarily to be sure that they provided sufficient power. All of the serious listening was based on the 24v battery.
The TBI was quick, articulate, and clean. There was no sense that lower or upper registers were neglected. No muddiness or congestion. No sizzle for high frequencies. This was a good, pleasing sound. Plenty of punch and drive. In the end, though, the TBI was not as pleasing as the Clayton. Images had more body, solidity particularly for lower frequencies with the class A amp. Soundstage width was somewhat restricted with the TBI. A rounder, three dimensional, organic sound was had with the Clayton. Then, the Clayton is 9 times more expensive than the stock TBI. I'm not sure of all the upgrades, but this unit must have had upgraded speaker posts and used the AMR audiophile fuse.
Thanks for the opportunity to audition the TBI to Ozark Tom. Things are changing and the potential for obtaining first rate sound for a fraction of the energy associated with other amp topologies is of real significance.
Stephen
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Thank you Stephen for joining the tour. We appreciate your feedback. Stephen is sending the amp back to Rex for replacement of the AMR fuse. Are their any other candidates that want to hear the amp?
It would be interesting to hear the TBI with the IFI IDAC on a pair of Tectonic M-Lores. That would have to be a best buy system that anyone would love to own for the money. That system would fall around $1500.
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The inclusion of the iUSB Power for $200 more would not break the bank and step up performance a notch.
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I agree with your speculation Tom, for that money it would have to be a killer pairing.
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Thank you Stephen for joining the tour. We appreciate your feedback. Stephen is sending the amp back to Rex for replacement of the AMR fuse. Are their any other candidates that want to hear the amp?
It would be interesting to hear the TBI with the IFI IDAC on a pair of Tectonic M-Lores. That would have to be a best buy system that anyone would love to own for the money. That system would fall around $1500.
Those are all components that I am looking at. Seems like they would work pretty well together.
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Hey Tom; Would like to be included in this tour. I messaged you but my email address is faulty. New email submitted but...?? Ron Nishimura. 808 732 1949 ronnishim@gmail.com. Have a pair of Tannoy monitors and Altec A-7 with modded Heath W6ms and Yamamoto A-08S 2 watter for comps. Also a pair of ESL 5 7s with new bass panels just received back. Let me know please. :)
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it's looking like i'll upgrade amplification to an MG3 from my panasonic receiver before a $700 DAC as another person that had one and similar to mine paradigm monitors with aluminum domes thought the SA-XR55 is a little too clinical sounding. that, and the amp is about $200 cheaper. it will let me better hear the DACs i already have, and i do like the detail and extension of my panasonic DAC if not the synergy with it's amps. it might sound a lot better with smoother amplification.
it's nice that someone's making a "high end" amp for just $500, especially when it's not only much more efficient than class A & A/B amps, but also much cheaper to operate than tube amps, and cooler in the summer too. i find it reassuring actually when tube amp owners say "it isn't quite as big sounding and more detailed" as i can't picture liking too much of a warm and forgiving tube sound. tighter bass in particular suits my tastes better right away. it sounds like a perfect balance between detail and musicality.
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Bypass the crappy volume Pot on it, if you want to see what it really has got.
Perhaps it has some low quality signaling coupling capacitors to replace as well.
You can make ok amps sound decent by doing that, or make great amps sound excellent.
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DoS,
This is class D an you have to be careful about changing components. Jan has chosen the parts and arranged that layout on purpose. It is possible that you increase cross-pollution of EMI/RFI noise by changing components ad-hoc as you say.
I cant speak much about the volume pot except to say that bypassing does not seem necessary, because when run full-on it is 99% out of the loop and then the better pre-amp can control the volume level. That seems a cheaper and simpler solution.
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Perhaps the volume pot at full volume is close, but I don't much care for the sound of anything through plastic pots.
The input parts you replace with the same values. In general it is hard to go wrong when you are expecting lower ESR, etc. You'll probably reduce noise. I can assure you that at $500 you won't see Teflon capacitors or anything like that, at the input. If anything I'd be more worried about needing to replace the Pot with a resistor value to keep the amplifier functioning properly because even at full volume on the pot, there is a resistive value since it is in parallel.
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OK,
Thanks for the detailed response.
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DOS,
I spoke to Jan about removing/bypassing the volume pot and he said it wasn't a good idea.
I also asked him if a straight power amp was in the mix, with the same topology as the MG3 and he said no.
Perhaps if there is enough interest in a straight amp he may consider it?
Why not purchase one and figure out how to do the bypass.
I would be very interested in finding out if it sounds better.
I would do it, but I don't have the know how.
Chris
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Are their any other candidates that want to hear the amp?
how much is shipping on the amp? as i'm already interested in buying one, it would be nice to hear it in my system before buying a unit, but not if would be something like a $50 rental. it's shipping with batteries isn't it?
speaking of that, i've only seen talk about using 1.5v AA batteries in the unit, but isn't there a 3v lithium ion batter that's the same size as AAs that would turn the unit into a 24v internally powered amp?
it's a shame about the amp not being offered in any other configuration. a larger version that included a better step attenuator volume control and input switching would be nice. if only my TV's tosilink out worked, i could use the DAC i'm getting for switching purposes.
i thought the tour was already over and have only just read up to this page. i'm interested in trying before buying for sure.
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DOS,
I spoke to Jan about removing/bypassing the volume pot and he said it wasn't a good idea.
I also asked him if a straight power amp was in the mix, with the same topology as the MG3 and he said no.
Perhaps if there is enough interest in a straight amp he may consider it?
Why not purchase one and figure out how to do the bypass.
I would be very interested in finding out if it sounds better.
I would do it, but I don't have the know how.
Chris
Maybe it has digital volume? That is a very different story.
Either way I doubt it is a question of whether or not bypassing would be good, and more a question of what it would take. For example maybe the amplifier is dependent on the distinct values of the pot. You'd have to measure and replace with high quality resistors (2 or 4 depending on how it is setup). There is always a chance that things are inaccessible, too. if you had to cut PCB tracings they may not be on the surface, etc.
I guess I need to see the inside to have a real good idea. Yes I looked around google images, no luck. Buy one? I just purchased parts to build an amplifier so that isn't going to happen right now.
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how much is shipping on the amp? as i'm already interested in buying one, it would be nice to hear it in my system before buying a unit, but not if would be something like a $50 rental. it's shipping with batteries isn't it?
speaking of that, i've only seen talk about using 1.5v AA batteries in the unit, but isn't there a 3v lithium ion batter that's the same size as AAs that would turn the unit into a 24v internally powered amp?
it's a shame about the amp not being offered in any other configuration. a larger version that included a better step attenuator volume control and input switching would be nice. if only my TV's tosilink out worked, i could use the DAC i'm getting for switching purposes.
i thought the tour was already over and have only just read up to this page. i'm interested in trying before buying for sure.
The battery compartment is fused to a 125V 2A fast blow fuse, so if you stick 3V batteries, it will pop the fuse. The only way to run the amp on the 24V line (battery or AC) is via the jack input. The nice thing about this amp is it is near bullet proof, as the fuses go before any damage occurs, thus ensuring long lasting safe performance. The 24V line is fused with a 125V 4A fuse.
As far as being green, it sure is, as it idles at only one or two watts.
The TBI amp sounds excellent at it's price point. There are many fine aspects regarding performance. My one issue with it is playing classical with the 24 V supply. The sound with massed strings was not to my liking. It is better with 12 V for classical, but then one needs the right speakers to get the proper sound.
In my case, I solved that by getting a pair of tube mono blocks (DIY) that output 55 WPC (definitely not low wattage). Contrary to what many think, a properly designed tube amp is not "rolled off" or has flabby bass. Because it was a DIY, was able to put in very expensive parts and still keep the cost down. Since it uses 1625 tubes, they are cheap, long lasting, and reliable. It provides that unique harmonic tonality that only tubes can (subjectively) provide, and still give that clean detailed sound generally associated with the best solid state (including the TBI).
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113695.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113695.0)
As they say, it's "Horses for Courses" 8)
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Got some feedback on the volume pot from Mr. Plummer I would like to share:
" An error concerning initial rotation has more to do with the high gain designed into Millenia when used in conjunction with high output sources and very efficient speakers. The sound is output at first motion of the control but at very low levels and one channel may be audible first. The volume control is ahead of the gain stage so it looks at everything so the tolerance is magnified at this point.
This higher gain was employed so as not to limit the volume attainable from the variety of portable digital sources people might use with lower line levels. It is not a common problem. (Only a few affected), but they seemed to work around the issue. It is one of the best ones available for this miniature application without something custom that would drive the price up unnecessarily."
I remain very positive about this amp. There is nothing else on the market that comes close (at this price point) for overall performance. Again, it is best in a Low Wattage setup, and careful attention must be paid to the speaker selection to get the best from this unit.
Several people have reported that this unit has outperformed much more expensive amps. I can state that it gave some much more expensive amps a good run for the money.
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Lol, it's REALLY obvious the volume pot doesn't track both channels evenly when used with my 2V RMS (max) DAC and 94 dB efficient speakers. The volume pot feels cheap and there's WAY, WAY too much gain in this amp as well. IMO the volume control and gain structure are a huge weak point in this amp and would be enough for me to not bother considering it or recommending it if the pot can't easily be bypassed and the gain can't be adjusted. It seems like this amp would be good for high-efficiency speakers but the gain and volume control make it so it doesn't work so well in this application... this seems really strange.
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Lol, it's REALLY obvious the volume pot doesn't track both channels evenly when used with my 2V RMS (max) DAC and 94 dB efficient speakers. The volume pot feels cheap and there's WAY, WAY too much gain in this amp as well. IMO the volume control and gain structure are a huge weak point in this amp and would be enough for me to not bother considering it or recommending it if the pot can't easily be bypassed and the gain can't be adjusted. It seems like this amp would be good for high-efficiency speakers but the gain and volume control make it so it doesn't work so well in this application... this seems really strange.
I think because it wasn't designed for hi efficiency audiophile speakers but for desktop and portable devices. The audiophile performance is purely coincidental. What needs to happen now is for a proper dedicated amp to be made, based on the chip used (or the newer chips, provided they sound better). That Mr. Plummer has no plans at this time to do so is... unfortunate.
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I think because it wasn't designed for hi efficiency audiophile speakers but for desktop and portable devices. The audiophile performance is purely coincidental. What needs to happen now is for a proper dedicated amp to be made, based on the chip used (or the newer chips, provided they sound better). That Mr. Plummer has no plans at this time to do so is... unfortunate.
I think you are close. Jan did design the amp for low voltage portable units. I also think he designed it with high efficiency audio speakers in mind. The power supply mod stepped up it's performance to another level.
The amp is obviously not for everyone, but one would be hard pressed to find it's sonic equal anywhere near it's price point. There is a very good reason it was a product of the year for positive feedback magizine.
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Well... a pot isn't that complicated. My $100 Trends T-amp has jumpers on the PCB that can be moved to bypass the volume pot, and I'd bet it wouldn't be much more difficult to reduce the gain on this amp. The fact the volume pot doesn't even track channels evenly and there is no balance control makes it unusable in my system as-is.
The TBI is a good value for the money, but it really, really needs the ability to bypass the volume pot and adjust gain. I'm sure this could be done by somebody knowledgeable enough to mod the amp, but putting a few jumpers on the PCB doesn't seem like it would add more than ten cents to the cost of the amp.
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I have the evaluation board with the same chip and has adjustable gain from 20 db to 36bd. In my set up, i find the lowest gain setting sound best .
My speaker is a diy V2 with powered sub and has 91bd/w sensitivity. I have a buffer for the dac ( B2) which has 2V rms output. It has no problem driving the speaker to more than 90db in my small room of about 200 sq ft
i agree with wushulu that the chip is very sensitivity to power supply mods and one can get great transparency with a little bit of diying in the power supply caps on the board.
DOS,
I spoke to Jan about removing/bypassing the volume pot and he said it wasn't a good idea.
I also asked him if a straight power amp was in the mix, with the same topology as the MG3 and he said no.
Perhaps if there is enough interest in a straight amp he may consider it?
Why not purchase one and figure out how to do the bypass.
I would be very interested in finding out if it sounds better.
I would do it, but I don't have the know how.
Chris
.
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Hi DaveC113
I have 2 Trends audio amp also.
This chip is much much better to my ears
cheers
kp93300
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I have had the opportunity to breakin some Vaughn Cabernet II speakers the last three weeks. Thank you Kenny.
I have three amps breaking these in. One is a high cost tube Set amp of 16 wpc, a Stello AI700 integrated, and the TBI. As long as my AC power holds up coming into my house, the AC amps all sound fantastic with these speakers. I am overwhelmed by how the TBI keeps holding its own with the high priced amps.
But last night during a snow storm here, all three amps sounded horrible on AC. It was very flat and strident. But since my wife was out bowling, I couldn't waste the evening with the system off. Happily, I switched to 12V battery on the TBI and voila, the magic was back. These Vaughns have a sensitivity rating of 100db/1 watt, so I can blast these louder than I want with the TBI. This is an incredible system. $500 amp pushing a pair of $9K Vaughn speakers. Jim Vaughn said his goal was to make high efficient speakers for the lower powered amps. He hit this right on the nail. Watch for a lot of rave reviews for these speakers in the future.
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I had a chance to hear this amp when it landed here on tour (thanks trackball :D) and we played around with it on a couple of systems and both posted our thoughts. Well, I liked the amp so much that I picked up a used one here on AC (thanks Freo :green:) and have just put it into my system tonight and of course a few issues came up that maybe you guys would have some insight on.
I'm using it to drive the low end of a bi-amped system: Mac-mini running Audirvana > Ultra-Fi DAC 41 > Dodd battery pre-amp > Marchand XM9 active crossover (Fourth order filter slope at 500Hz) > Dodd battery amp for the highs > Avlar Prodigy AMT and the TBI (on a 12V battery) for the lows > Avlar Prodigy 8" woofer. The TBI replaced a Virtue Sensation on 24V battery. The Prodigy is a two way speaker with a big folded ribbon AMT with an sensitivity of 100db/1W and an 8" SEAS woofer which is in the low 90's.
At first I turned the volume pot all the way up on the TBI and almost blew my woofers across the room. This little amp is putting out a lot more current than the Sensation. The thing I hate (love) about active crossovers is the added control. Nothing makes me mistrust my ears more than having that kind of control. I rolled back the low end significantly, and tried again. I noticed right away that the output of the TBI differs a lot from the Sensation. I don't have an SPL meter, but compared to the Sensation there seems to be a rather big hump as you go below 50 or 60Hz or thereabouts. I kept having to pull back on the low end of the crossover to get that bottom octave to not distort. I hope I didn't damage the drivers. They were really huffing. But the more I pulled back for that bottom octave, the thinner the upper bass got. That's why I'm thinking the output of this amp may not be flat. I already had a lot of attenuation on the high end, around -12dB, tried some more, almost to -20, but now the high seemed a little dull and the mid bass was still kind of thin. Then tried increasing gain on both the highs and lows equally, keeping the same relation to each other, but that made the highs harsher. These AMT's are REALLY sensitive.
I was also getting a nasty little buzz, which showed up a few weeks ago when I put the DAC-41 in the system (another story). But now with the TBI the buzz was louder. Enough so that it was a problem.
So, I decided to use the volume pot on the TBI as well to see if that made any difference and it did. I had the pot at about 12 O'clock and added gain on the crossover. That smoothed things out a bit and reduced the buzz significantly (which I actually think is coming off the crossover). I was going to experiment some more, but by then I had lost all objectivity. So I sat back and played some tunes and hey, I was really getting drawn into the music - a very good sign - the midrange was sounding very sweet. So as I left it tonight, the sound is a bit leaner than with the Sensation and doesn't have as much drive, yet that lower octave is still really potent. Actually, I don't think I was even hearing that lower octave with the Sensation. I feel like I need a high pass filter, it's just too much for those woofers to handle. I'm planning to play with it some more tomorrow.
Has anyone else noticed a hump in the low end? Any advice?
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Thank you Stephen for joining the tour. We appreciate your feedback. Stephen is sending the amp back to Rex for replacement of the AMR fuse. Are their any other candidates that want to hear the amp?
It would be interesting to hear the TBI with the IFI IDAC on a pair of Tectonic M-Lores. That would have to be a best buy system that anyone would love to own for the money. That system would fall around $1500.
So I decided to give this system a try but with the Tekton Lore-S. Do you think itll work? Do you have any cable recommendations to go with this set-up?
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So far I have a direct-tv HD (upto 1080i only)/ Bluray player/ xbox 360.
I am going to be playing my music cd's through the bluray player. I am about 95% movies and 5% music.
I am thinking of picking up a pair of M-Lore w/ Mondorf silver oil upgrade, using the TBI MG3 for the amp and iFi iDAC as the DAC. I am in a 13 x 13 x 10 room.
is the DAC necessary?
Also, what do you guys recommend for speaker cables and interconnects? Thanks.
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Has anyone had any luck with a switch box for this? Would love to be able to use a turntable and dac without getting up and pulling out rcas, this is my only beef with this amp. Thinking of the decware switch box.
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There are a number of good switch boxes out there. I got one that I like which was made by Luxman. You should be fine with any input selector of decent quality.
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The IFI Micro Itube is just out for 299 bucks. I will get one to try out. It has a volume control with a special holographic switchable circuit built in. I was told by someone in the know, once you switch the holographic circuit in, you will never turn it off. And this includes the higher priced systems. This should give a high quality tube preamp for the TBI without spending the big bucks. :thumb:
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Don't see anything about the iTube on the iFi site yet, but all of their other gear has gotten pretty great reviews.
Look forward to hearing your impressions, Tom.
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Don't see anything about the iTube on the iFi site yet, but all of their other gear has gotten pretty great reviews.
Look forward to hearing your impressions, Tom.
The first time I saw anything on the Itube was on their Facebook page. IFI calls it their Swiss Army knife.
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Got a link with any iTube details?
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Got a link with any iTube details?
This is the only link I can find, but they are now here in us.
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/headphones-earphones-portable-media-devices-314/spoiler-alert-4189579.html
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WOW!
Just got a look at this thing, and had been contemplating a high quality tube buffer for my system.
The boy's at AMR have gotten the iFi line right!
It's great to see a company, that is well renowned for reference gear, bring that technology to budget gear. 8)
Without it being some watered down, cheepo, under-performing version with their name on it, just for profit! :roll:
I had the iPhono and the thing was amazing and performed waaay above it's price point.
I will buy another one when my listening room is rebuilt. :D
Will be looking for one of these units when it hit's the market! :thumb:
Any idea of the tube used?
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Well, if just a tube buffer was satisfying enough, everyone would be using a tube buffer as opposed to a tubed preamp or amp. It also seems that the iTube won't address the need for multiple inputs, unless I am missing something here.
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WOW!
Just got a look at this thing, and had been contemplating a high quality tube buffer for my system.
The boy's at AMR have gotten the iFi line right!
It's great to see a company, that is well renowned for reference gear, bring that technology to budget gear. 8)
Without it being some watered down, cheepo, under-performing version with their name on it, just for profit! :roll:
I had the iPhono and the thing was amazing and performed waaay above it's price point.
I will buy another one when my listening room is rebuilt. :D
Will be looking for one of these units when it hit's the market! :thumb:
Any idea of the tube used?
I was told, but forgot. :duh:
I believe it starts with the number 5. is four numbers, and is a NOS tube. Definitely is not some junk tube. But I don't believe it is a 5751 tube, but maybe so. Itube also has adjustable gain in case you need it. The holographic circuit will even enhance audio systems that costs over $100K, so you may see a lot of people using the Itube..
That Thorsten of Ifi and AMR is a genious. He himself is the ultimate tweekster.
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It launches Aug 16. Triple play become quadruple play, i.e., iUSB via Gemini to iLink to iTube.
Details at the FB page, but you have to dig for it as this was mentioned weeks ago.
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It launches Aug 16. Triple play become quadruple play, i.e., iUSB via Gemini to iLink to iTube.
Details at the FB page, but you have to dig for it as this was mentioned weeks ago.
Very nice!
Hope to get one when they hit the US. :D
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Then contact Bonnie and Darrell Censullo at Avatar Acoustics in GA.
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Continuing our OT diuscussion of the iTube. Here is the first review of the unit I have found:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/ifi-itube-active-tube-bufferpreamplifier
Hardly an across-the-board rave. Seemed to be pretty system dependent, with the greatest benefit coming with the Audioquest Dragonfly, and minimal benefit when used with the Mytek DAC. As always, synergy is everything.
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Continuing our OT diuscussion of the iTube. Here is the first review of the unit I have found:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/ifi-itube-active-tube-bufferpreamplifier
Hardly an across-the-board rave. Seemed to be pretty system dependent, with the greatest benefit coming with the Audioquest Dragonfly, and minimal benefit when used with the Mytek DAC. As always, synergy is everything.
Even with the Mytek, the 3D circuit was said to benefit the sound in the review.
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Even with the Mytek, the 3D circuit was said to benefit the sound in the review.
From the article: "With the Mytek DAC there was minimal benefit,the most dramatic difference being the 3D HologrpahicSound providing a larger and more natural sound image"
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Is this a re-hash of the Carver "Sonic Holograph" circuit?
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Is this a re-hash of the Carver "Sonic Holograph" circuit?
I doubt it, but this is the latest link from IFI's website describing it.
http://ifi-audio.com/en/iTube.html
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Found this review of the iTube over on Head-Fi:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/ifi-audio-itube/reviews/9473
and Enjoy The Music:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0913/ifi_micro_itube_review.htm
Thought this was an appropriate OT post, will keep to the TBI Amp in the future.
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Hi everyone!
This is my first post at AC, having heard about this thread a few weeks ago at Head-Fi. I've just today finished reading the entire thread and have to say I really enjoyed everyone's contributions.
I took delivery of a TBI MG3 about a week ago and have been enchanted, no... make that infatuated, no... obsessed, ever since. :D
I had ordered the MG3 with the intention of using it as a headphone amp, as others have before me. But while waiting for an impedance match that Jan Plummer is making for my 50-Ohm Audeze LCD-2 headphones, I decided to connect my 8-Ohm, 90 dB, Definitive Technology SM45 monitors - another big bang for the buck product that was very favorably reviewed by Chris Martens of TAS, in April of this year:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/definitive-technology-studiomonitorsm-45-loudspeakers-hi-fi/ (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/definitive-technology-studiomonitorsm-45-loudspeakers-hi-fi/)
After spending nearly every available free minute of my life for the past week listening to the MG3 > SM45s, I'm not so sure I'll ever be able to experience anything nearly as wonderful with my LCD-2 headphones. I had previously used a $189 Emotiva Mini-X a-100 (50-Wpc) integrated amp to drive my $320/pair SM45s, but there is no comparison. It's as if the SM45s have been unshackled by the MG3. This combo has great synergy, for lack of a better word. The MG3 is so musical compared to any other amp I've ever heard.
Here's a picture I took a couple of days ago of my audio workbench (the dining table!) And yes, I have a truly wonderful wife, who puts up with a lot! :bowdown:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86006)
More later...
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zilch0md
Very nice desk table top set up! :thumb:
What is the gizmo to the right of the MG3? Card reader?
Chris
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Hi,
That's an RC hobbyist's four-cell, 1000 mAh LiPo battery, rated at 14.8V nominal (which translates to 16.8V when fully charged and 12.0V when discharged). It's about $10.00 at HobbyPartz.com
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86036)
LiPo batteries are very light and energy dense relative to something like SLA, especially. That little battery will power the MG3 for about six hours but experiences a substantial voltage drop, and therefore, a substantial drop in Watts rms to the speakers, as it discharges (from 16.8V to 12.0V), but the discharge curve is very flat, with most of the drop to 12.0V occurring in the last few minutes of use.
These batteries have two leads (+ and -) for discharging, but another set of leads that allow a so-called "balance charger" to charge each cell independently, in parallel, instead of charging them in series, where a cell that's lagging behind its siblings could cause healthier cells to be damaged by over-voltage. Here's the balance charger I use - a Thunder AC6 , that can handle all manner of battery charging needs, very intelligently. It's called a "Dual Power" charger because it will operate from either 120V AC or from 12V DC. Yes, it has a DC-to-DC converter that allows charging of up to 25.2V six-cell LiPo packs from your vehicle's 12V accessory socket, for example! It's about $45 at HobyPartz.com:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86037)
When not on the charger, the balance-charging leads can be connected to various monitoring devices, such as the one that's displaying 15.0 (Volts) in the first photo, above. This thing can be programmed to sound an audible alarm (it's loud - just like a smoke detector) at a user-specified voltage in the range 2.7V to 3.7V. The factory default it 3.3V - giving the pilots of RC aircraft time to get their planes back on the ground (or those of RC boats to get them back to shore) before the battery would be damaged due to discharge below 3.0V per cell. I've got mine set to 3.0V, as it takes no time at all for me to turn off an amplifier. :lol:
This one is called the Integy C23212 Lipo Voltage Checker/Warning Buzzer and it's available at Amazon for about $10:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86038)
Since taking that picture of my dining table, I've switched to using a 3600 mAh 6-cell LiPo pack, rated at 22.2V nominal (25.2V when fully charged, falling to 18.0V when discharged.) This one is much larger - about the same length as the MG3 is from front to rear, but not quite as wide. I've used it for about 20 hours and it has only lost about 0.25 V from its fully charged voltage. It's likely to last 100 hours or more, but I really have no idea at this point. Called the Venom 25C 6S 3600mAh 22.2 LiPO Battery, it's $99 at Amazon:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86041)
Jan Plummer has assured me that I don't need to concern myself with the fact that these batteries can deliver crazy amounts of current. The 1000 mAh four-cell LiPo, mentioned above, has a maximum continuous discharge rating of "20C." Doing the math, one takes the mAh rating (1000 mAh) and multiplies by the maximum discharge rate (20C) to get the maximum continuous load it can handle (without overheating) of 20,000 mA (or 20A). If that sounds like a lot of current, try the same calculation with the 3600 mAh six-cell LiPo, which has a discharge rate of 25C... 3600mAh * 25 = 90,000 mA (or 90A)!
When selecting LiPo packs for this purpose (not for RC toys), pay attention to the "C" rating - selecting as low a rating as possible for the voltage your're seeking (i.e. 20C or 25C, not 30C to 70C) and also remember that the voltage shown for a LiPo pack will always be the "nominal" voltage (3.7V per cell), not the fully charged voltage (4.2V per cell).
UPDATE: Jan Plummer says that a supply voltage of 27.5V can cause the MG3 to demand currents exceeding 4A - enough to blow the fuse, so don't try to use 7-cell LiPo packs that would produce 29.4V when fully charged. Stick with 6-cell LiPo packs (25.5V) or less.
Gotta run for now!
Mike
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I just now found this page that does a good job with covering the basics of using LiPo batteries:
http://revolution-robotics.com/articles/lithium_polymer_lipo_battery_guide (http://revolution-robotics.com/articles/lithium_polymer_lipo_battery_guide)
It includes this graph that has me rethinking my current strategy of discharging the batteries all the way to 3.0V per cell for use with the MG3.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86042)
It shows that in the last 1/9th of the total time required to discharge each cell of a 6-cell LiPo pack from 4.2V down to 3.0V, the voltage drops from 3.43V to 3.0V. For the first 8/9ths of the total time it takes to discharge to 3.0V, the curve is fairly flat.
Thus, if a 6-cell battery of a given mAh rating were to last a total of 9 hours with a given load, the first 8 hours would be "flat" with the voltage dropping no lower than 3.43V per cell, or 20.6V for a 6-cell pack. In the last hour of 9 hours, said 6-cell pack under said load would drop from 20.6V to 18V, which for the MG3 would translate to a corresponding, precipitous drop in Watts rms per channel (in the 9th hour).
Moral of the story: I'm going to reprogram my voltage alarm to sound at 3.4V per cell, instead of at 3.0V per cell.
:rock:
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks for the very informational threads using a LiPo battery looks like a good idea, and is very cost effective.
Have you listened to the amp powered by other power supplies, and is there a sound quality difference?
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
To date, since getting the MG3 only 10 days ago, I've only "auditioned" the following power sources:
1) The 24V 2.7A switch-mode PSU that comes with the MG3
2) A 3-cell 2200 mAh (12.6V max.) LiPo pack
3) A 4-cell 1000 mAh (16.8V max.) LiPo pack
4) A 6-cell 3600 mAh (25.2V max.) LiPo pack
5) An Energizer XP8000 2000mAh Li-Ion battery (which, at 18-months of age, is delivering only 19.5V when fully charged).
6) 8 AA (standard) 1.5V Duracell Alkalines (in the battery compartment)
7) 8 AA 1.5V Energizer e2 Lithium-Ion (in the battery compartment)
Across all seven solutions, I have no issues with noise that could be attributed to the power supply, per se. I can, however, hear a very faint hiss with #1 and #4, prior to playing a track, but I have to hold my ear against a speaker grill to hear it, and it's there, no matter where I set the MG3 volume control - even turned all the way down. I attribute this hiss to the higher voltage of #1 and #4, nothing more. I just think my 90 dB sensitivity speakers require a little less gain. Interestingly, when I first got the MG3, the hiss on 24V was worse than it has become after just a few hours of break-in. My noise floor is inky black now - allowing lots of micro details to come through, beautifully - no matter what voltage I use (in the permissible range of 10 to 27V).
Note that I sit with each ear at about 20-inches from its respective speaker, so I get plenty of SPL with the MG3 coasting along at a volume setting of about 7:30 or 8 o'clock, at most. I mean it's plenty loud at 8 o'clock - that's tops.
Of #'s 2, 3, and 4, I prefer the six-cell 25.2V LiPo pack, because the MG3 offers more headroom (and all that comes with it) at 24V (or thereabout). Dynamics are spectacular with 24V power (translating to 32W into 8-Ohm), as is bass control and, I don't think I'm imagining this, but mids and treble seem to be a little better defined, too.
#6 and #7 fail to excite me, simply because they start at 12V and decay from there with use - I found the sound to be lackluster at 12V. Perhaps if I had more efficient speakers or headphones - I'm still waiting for Jan Plummer to finish an impedance match he's building for my 50-Ohm Audeze LCD-2 - which suffer a lot of hiss during playback if I connect them directly to the MG3's binding posts.
My Audeze LCD-2 are gathering dust at the moment. :sleep:
#5 is a solution that I feel most comfortable recommending to anyone who wants a lot more convenience than fussing with the RC-style LiPo packs and balance chargers. I'm not an RC enthusiast - I've never worked with these batteries for any purpose other than audio applications, beginning with the Meier Audio Corda Stepdance portable, single-ended headphone amp, and later, the iBasso PB2 Pelican, balanced headphone amp, in each case enjoying greater power output to the headphones by driving the amp at higher voltages than is possible using its internal battery.
Even though I've become familiar with using the Thunder AC6 charger with RC-style LiPo batteries, learning how to do it correctly and safely is a discipline I wouldn't expect everyone to readily embrace. It's a pain in the rear, to be honest, but I've grown to enjoy the ritual of it - like grinding coffee beans right before french pressing, and then having to clean the press afterwards - the music just "tastes better" when more work is involved - a labor of love. :wink:
#5, the Energizer XP8000 Li-Ion battery is very nicely "consumerized" - automating the whole process of charging (and avoiding excessive discharge) while also providing taps for for multiple voltages, including a 5V USB port.
For the MG3, there's a problem with the Energizer XP8000, however - potentially insufficient amperage.
Note the specs for current version of the XP8000, known as the Energizer XP8000A:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86249)
http://www.energizerpowerpacks.com/products/xp8000a/ (http://www.energizerpowerpacks.com/products/xp8000a/)
Rated Output Current at 19V is only 2000mA (vs. the 4000 mAh the MG3 can pull to blow a fuse with supply voltage exceeding 27.5 Amps - per Jan Plummer.)
Now, at the SPL I desire with my 90 dB 8-Ohm speakers only 20 inches from my ears, I doubt the MG3 is pulling even 500 mA continuous, and I can say that my XP8000 sounds absolutely fine with the MG3. I can't really say I can hear a difference in dynamics or any other sonic trait vs. running the 25.2V 6-cell LiPo pack or the 24V PSU. There's surely a reduction in Watts rms with only 19V supplied by the XP8000 vs. 24 or more, but again, I can't hear so subtle a difference, where I can when taking the voltage all the way down to 12V with internal AA batteries or with the 3-Cell LiPo pack (where the Watts rms falls to 10Wpc).
So here comes my recommendation, which is at best a hunch, given that I haven't tested it... Check out the specs of the larger Energizer XP18000A (available in black or white versions):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86257)
http://www.energizerpowerpacks.com/products/xp18000a/ (http://www.energizerpowerpacks.com/products/xp18000a/)
Rated Output Current at 19V is 3500 mA - Now we're talking! That's a much better match to the 3.7A capacity of the 24V PSU.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86259)
I think this would make an ideal solution for anyone who wants a "transportable" MG3, or even for those who just want truly clean desktop power. It's way more convenient than the RC LiPo packs I'm using, but with an 18,000 mAh capacity, this thing is relatively large (7.1 x 4.3 x 0.8 inches) and heavy (18.2 ounces). Then again, this means it will hold a high voltage all the longer with the greater capacity. (I would charge it every night, just the same, instead of deep-cycling it.)
http://www.amazon.com/Energizer-XP18000AB-Universal-External-Smartphones/dp/B00CFHBV5E (http://www.amazon.com/Energizer-XP18000AB-Universal-External-Smartphones/dp/B00CFHBV5E)
http://www.xpalpower.us/2012/manuals/xp18000a.pdf (http://www.xpalpower.us/2012/manuals/xp18000a.pdf)
By the way, I'll add that when I've tried to charge my XP8000 while using it to power my headphone amps, I can hear a faint buzzing if using sensitive IEMs (instead of fullsize headphones) - I've not tried doing that with the MG3, but why bother?
Here's a YouTube video on the XP18000A: http://youtu.be/UjFLXhLlhyI (http://youtu.be/UjFLXhLlhyI)
At 36-seconds into the video you will briefly see a cable with blue tips at both ends - this is all you'll need to connect the XP18000A or (XP8000A) to an MG3's power jack.
Who wants to take the plunge and let us know how it sounds on an MG3? :wave:
Meanwhile, I'm all set with my 6-cell LiPo pack, for desktop and "transportable" use:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86041)
Mike
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Thanks, all good recommendations. I believe I mentioned the Energizer early in the thread and it bears mentioning again as an ezpz solution.
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The Energizer XP18000 is definitely a no-thinking-required way to operate, and there's something else that I should have mentioned above...
It's intrinsically safer than using a battery pack that's capable of supplying 90 Amps continuous! :slap:
Jan Plummer says if anything shorts inside the MG3, the 4A fuse will blow, but I'm still a little nervous hooking up so powerful a battery. I can imagine arcs jumping across traces on a PCB, but I just have to remind myself that a battery can't force a load to accept more amps than its pulling. I've been using these high-current LiPo's with audio gear for over two years, with no problems thus far, but the lower rating of the XP8000/XP18000 just seems like the better way to go, not to mention the aforementioned convenience factor.
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks for answering my question. :D
I see you have put a lot of thought into using LiPo packs and sharing your experience is most appreciated. 8)
There are many on this thread who may take you up on your suggestions.
Would this battery unit be OK or is the amp level, 3a @ 19v, to low?
http://www.amazon.com/Anker-Ultra-High-Multi-Voltage-Notebooks-Compatible/dp/B00B45EOYS/ref=pd_sim_e_1
or this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Capacity-33600mAh-Portable-External-Notebooks/dp/B0063KXZQ2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_pc_3
Chris
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Before ordering the Energizer XP18000A for the MG3, another option to consider is the less expensive Anker Astro Pro 2, as discussed in the three posts beginning here, at Head-Fi:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones/915#post_9764910 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones/915#post_9764910)
Mike
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That was quick :D
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Hey Chris,
Mike,
Thanks for answering my question. :D
I see you have put a lot of thought into using LiPo packs and sharing your experience is most appreciated. 8)
There are many on this thread who may take you up on your suggestions.
Would this battery unit be OK or is the amp level, 3a @ 19v, to low?
http://www.amazon.com/Anker-Ultra-High-Multi-Voltage-Notebooks-Compatible/dp/B00B45EOYS/ref=pd_sim_e_1
or this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Capacity-33600mAh-Portable-External-Notebooks/dp/B0063KXZQ2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_pc_3
Chris
I was just letting this thread know about the product at the first link you've provided - coincidentally.
That second one is a beast! Check out the dimensions: 8.4 x 0.8 x 5.1 inches And it weighs 1.8 pounds!
I think that one is overkill for the MG3, unless you want to go camping for a month without access to AC power. But as a desktop power supply, the size and weight wouldn't be as great an issue and it would offer a longer play time between having to recharge it.
I'm confident that the 3A rating on these is sufficient for the MG3, especially since the MG3 can't pull as many amps on 19V power as it can on 24V power. If you're running efficient speakers (or headphones), the MG3 might never even peak to 3 amps. Keep in mind that Jan Plummer says you have to feed the MG3 27.5V, pushing it hard, I presume, to blow the 4A fuse.
If I were you and willing to experiment, given that no one else has actually heard it with the MG3, to my knowledge, I'd get the Anker Astro Pro 2.
Regarding potential play times, I've logged 6 hours on a fully charged 3600 mAh 6-cell (25.2V) LiPo pack and the voltage has fallen to 3.84V per cell (23.0V total).
Look at this chart and tell me how much time I have before the voltage falls from 3.84V per cell to 3.4V per cell, where my alarm will sound:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86042)
Yeah! In six hours of use, I've only consumed about 0.2 of 8.2 total units of time available with a 3600 mAh battery!!!
0.2 is only 2.44% of the total capacity (and that's sticking to my plan of discharging no further than 3.4V per cell).
This could end up being off by quite a bit, but going by the chart and the voltage I'm measuring after only 6 hours of use, I'm predicting the 3600 mAh LiPo pack will give me 246 hours of play on a single charge!
If that seems impossible, consider that Jan Plummer has told me it's not unusual for people to go "weeks" on a single set of 2200 mAh AAs inside the MG3's battery compartment!
Assuming the specs aren't inflated (and my attempts at forecasting results with my 3600 mAh pack are reasonable), a 20,000 mAh battery pack (i.e. Anker Astro Pro 2) would be good for 1367 hours of play at the levels I'm running the MG3 > SM45. Sheesh! Even if that chart is off by a factor of two, we're good for 683 hours of play with a 20,000 mAh pack. If it's off by a factor of ten, we're still good for 13.7 hours of play - enough for a long day of listening before putting it back on the charger overnight, but I suspect my forecast is "in the ball park."
Really, a 10,000 mAh Anker Astro3 is more than enough capacity, but it only puts out 12V max. The Energizer XP8000 has plenty of capacity, too, at 8000 mAh, but it's limited to 2A loads at 19V - which sounds fine with my MG3 running no higher than 8 o'clock on the volume control, but I don't like the idea of having a 2A ceiling.
That leaves us with the Anker Astro Pro 2 (at your second link, above), as having too much capacity perhaps, but a 3A output.
:inlove:
Mike
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We're out of sync, Chris - leap frogging each other. :lol:
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We're out of sync, Chris - leap frogging each other. :lol:
:lol:
Thanks again for all of the great info.
I will need a pair of these amps for my system, run as mono blocks.
A single MG3 with 24v 32w output works OK, but 2 MG3's will run cooler with better headroom as mono blocks with a shorted output (24v with 40w output).
These battery power supplies look to be the answer to keeping the cost to performance ratio in line.
Chris
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I recall reading earlier in this thread about using one channel on each of two amps and that Jan had predicted a 30% increase in Wpc, but I'm clueless as to why the unused channels have to be shorted.
?
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I recall reading earlier in this thread about using one channel on each of two amps and that Jan had predicted a 30% increase in Wpc, but I'm clueless as to why the unused channels have to be shorted.
?
There was a mention and discussion about shorting the unused input over in the TBI Amp Tour 2 thread.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115309.80
This was posted by Ozarktom on page 5:
"The TBI puts out 20 percent more with the amps as mono. Just use one channel of the amp and short out the other channel. The shorting does make an improvement in sound. This would give about 40WPC on 24v AC or battery and that should be very loud with the Super V's."
Couldn't hurt? :dunno:
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Ok, it must be the right thing to do. :wink:
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Resurrecting this post after two months of silence...
Here are some photos of my "transportable" rig that allows me to travel with the MG3 and a pair of Audeze LCD-2 orthoplanar headphones.
First, this shows the rig set up on a table, but with heavier gauge speaker wire (10AWG, 462-strand OFC) that I had to downsize for use in my travel case:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89484)
And here's the rig in its case:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89485)
44.1/16 and 96/24 WAVs on multiple 64GB MicroSD > Sony PCM-M10 Line Out > 24VDC-powered TBI Audio Millenia MG3 (~5.1 Watts into 50-Ohm) > TBI Impedance Match > Audeze LCD-2 rev.1
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89486)
1) Open the case
2) Connect headphone cable to the LCD-2's mini-XLRs
3) Connect the 24VDC LiPo battery and attach alarm/monitor
4) Connect interconnect cable to Sony PCM-M10
5) Turn on the TBI Audio Millenia MG3 and listen to music!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89487)
Jan Plummer (of TBI Audio), built the impedance match to reduce the hiss caused by excess gain when plugging the Audeze LCD-2 directly into the amp's binding posts. Audeze technical support says the LCD-2 can handle output from amps rated as high as 81 Watts rms per channel into 8-Ohms, but I was hearing a low level hiss prior to getting the impedance match. Now - it's perfect - and the sound is amazing!
Here's a schematic Jan provided showing one channel of the resistor network ("A" means Amp, "H" means Headphone):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89490)
I believe this idea of using the MG3 with headphones, via an impedance match, was pioneered by a member of Head-Fi.org who goes by the handle "SMG52."
Mike
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Very nice...been following the thread over on Head-fi. :thumb:
How many cards can the M10 handle at the same time?
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Very nice...been following the thread over on Head-fi. :thumb:
+1 Good thinking. That is excellent use of the amp. I bet it sounds great!
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Jan heard the modded Cardas post version of Rex and mine and now is offering this on his website for $650. Jan was impressed.
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Very nice...been following the thread over on Head-fi. :thumb:
How many cards can the M10 handle at the same time?
Hi,
The PCM-M10 can only hold one microSD card at at a time (64 GB SDXC cards, reformatted to FAT32 for compatibility with the PCM-M10).
I just meant that I carry multiple cards (six, currently) to hold my modest, but growing library of WAV files.
Mike
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Jan heard the modded Cardas post version of Rex and mine and now is offering this on his website for $650. Jan was impressed.
Hey,
I thought about that upgrade for a while, but settled on the standard posts.
Now, I'm afraid to listen to an MG3 with Cardas posts! :lol:
Mike
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+1 Good thinking. That is excellent use of the amp. I bet it sounds great!
Thanks!
The Audeze LCD-2 and LCD-3 both scale nicely with more power. They're known for sounding pretty good even with most portable headphone amps, outputting only 100- to 500-mW into 50-Ohms, but Audeze recommends a minimum of 1000 mW into 50 Ohms, up to a maximum of 13 Watts rms per channel.
They're efficient enough to achieve more than reasonable SPL with only 100 mW, but the bass control and dynamics improve greatly as you get up to 1 Watt and beyond.
With the 5-Watt into 50-Ohm output of the MG3, the dynamics are amazing (with recordings that offer good dynamics) and those analog, natural, and organic qualities of the MG3, along with its superb transparency, low noise, and rendering of micro details that I can hear with my speakers (90dB sensitivity Definitive Technology SM45 near-field monitors), are enjoyed with the Audeze LCD-2, as well. But the LCD-2 are not quite as highly resolving as the SM45s.
On 24V power (where the MG3's gain is at its highest), using an SPL meter, I measure 85 dB between the ear pads of the LCD-2 when playing a white noise file with the MG3 volume control set at 9:00 o'clock (using the 1.0Vrms Line Out of the Sony PCM-M10 in combination with the TBI impedance match at the MG3's outputs).
So, I don't have a lot of fine-tuning ability between silence and 9 o'clock, but it's actually better than what I get when using the Definitive Technology SM45 speakers. The speakers are more sensitive (without the impedance match) than my LCD-2 (with the impedance match). I'm stuck down 8 o'clock or less on the volume control, when using the SM45s, but that's in part because my head is only about two feet from each speaker.
:icon_lol:
Mike
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I talked to my friend in Michigan recently, that is using two Millenia amps as dual monos. He recently purchased a pair of the 8K plasma tweeters from Vaughn Acoustics to run with his Vaughn Line Arrays. Kenny told me that if he had only 10K to spend on an amp, he would have to buy two of the Millenia amps and these plasma tweeters. Kenny says those tweeters are a game changer for him. That is high praise to be running TBI's on that 40K system.
Audio Beat rated the Vaughn/Wavelength system as the best at RMAF.
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i am also using 2 Millenia amps as dual monos with a Decware preamp. Volume on the Millenias is open about 80 % just a touch off max. I am still using the provided power supplies with Omega super 6 monitors . I am quite happy with the setup. Question is ...can i connect my Omega sub directly to the speaker inputs of the Millenia amps? Also .. are any other new tweeks to recomend ?
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I talked to my friend in Michigan recently, that is using two Millenia amps as dual monos. He recently purchased a pair of the 8K plasma tweeters from Vaughn Acoustics to run with his Vaughn Line Arrays. Kenny told me that if he had only 10K to spend on an amp, he would have to buy two of the Millenia amps and these plasma tweeters. Kenny says those tweeters are a game changer for him. That is high praise to be running TBI's on that 40K system.
Audio Beat rated the Vaughn/Wavelength system as the best at RMAF.
That is indeed high praise for this inexpensive "chip" amp!
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Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I was just checking to see if you guys are still happy with your TBI Millenia amps. I just purchased mine and it should be here in a few days. I plan to use it on some single driver fullrange speakers I've got. These particular drivers used (Mark Audio Alpair 10.3) are incredibly revealing of upstream changes and tweaks so I'm curious to see how the test goes.
I'll also be pitching the TBI against my reference tube preamp and Class D Audio SDS-120 which are currently holding down the main rig duties. Should be interesting to see if the TBI can dethrone my current gear. Will report back with findings when the TBI arrives.
Cheers,
StevenZ
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Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I was just checking to see if you guys are still happy with your TBI Millenia amps. I just purchased mine and it should be here in a few days. I plan to use it on some single driver fullrange speakers I've got. These particular drivers used (Mark Audio Alpair 10.3) are incredibly revealing of upstream changes and tweaks so I'm curious to see how the test goes.
I'll also be pitching the TBI against my reference tube preamp and Class D Audio SDS-120 which are currently holding down the main rig duties. Should be interesting to see if the TBI can dethrone my current gear. Will report back with findings when the TBI arrives.
Cheers,
StevenZ
I'm still using mine and have been very happy with them, I'll be getting a pair of GR Research Super V's shortly which is the main reason I purchased them. They have loads of detail and are very smooth on top. Definitely let us know what you think and I'll do the same once I get my Super V's in house.
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Thanks for the reply. Is the general consensus to use this as a standalone integrated or used as a power amp and external preamp?
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Thanks for the reply. Is the general consensus to use this as a standalone integrated or used as a power amp and external preamp?
I believe most people like myself are using them as an amp and using a preamp. I use a Joule Electra tube pre in front of two of them as I like the combination of tubes and solid state. In my system I have found They sound best at around 3:00 but others may have a different opinion what sounds best to them.
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So, the TBI arrived yesterday to the office. I gave it about 6hrs at the office and noticed a bit of channel imbalance at very low volumes. This was beyond annoying and instantly rules the TBI out for desk duties here at the office. Although what I heard was quite promising so I proceeded to take the little fella home and give it a fair shot in the main rig.
The main rig currently consists of a John Kenny Ciunas DAC, Twin Audio tube preamp (output transformer coupled) with Bendix 5Y3 and Sophia Electric 6SN7 drivers, and Class D Audio SDS-120C wired with Clairvoyant gold plated copper wire and Cardas solder. Cables are Grover Huffman ZX+ interconnects and White Lightning DIY speaker cables. Speakers are Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 in Pensil cabinets wired with Jupiter Condenser 18awg solid core with cotton insulation; cardas solder as well.
So, these first tests were done using the TBI as a standalone integrated. I fired up my usual demo tracks, a few cuts from All Star Percussion Ensemble, some Stevie Ray Vaughan, Ryan Bingham, Kat Edmonson, Ray Lamontagne, and to mix it up, some James Blake and Animal Collective.
Right out of the gate I noticed an incredibly black background to this amp. Even at full volume it's dead quiet. Very nice! I'm shocked by how this little amp is able to show me such purity in the midrange and bring the presentation into the room, whereas I'm used to an amp projecting beyond the room. It's very interesting as even though it brings the instruments and performer closer into the room, the image is still deep and wide with each instrument having it's own space with nice separation. The midrange is very convincing, never sounding overbloated or thin, very natural as if the singer is in the room singing without a mic. One thing that did irk me a bit was an upper midrange bite that my ears absolutely hated. It was fatiguing to the max so I decided to swap out interconnects and see what happens. I pulled out the Grover Huffman and threw in some interconnects made by Stephen Sank. There we go, no more bite, just smooth vocals. Folks who believe cables don't make a difference need to experiment with this amp. Never before has a cable swap been so completely night/day difference than what I'm experiencing.
I was continually struck by how detailed this little guy is. I'm able to hear deeper into the recording than ever before. Attack is nice and abrupt, decay was nice and drawn out. I noted on Ryan Bingham's "Boracho Station" the resonance of the guitar body and the sound of his fingers sliding around on the strings. I could sense the 3-dimensional object in my room and was listening to the guitar body resonate in it's fullness. Ryan's slightly raspy voice was just intoxicating. Again, I mention it seemed like both he and the guitar were actually IN the room playing un-mic'd. Wow. Seriously, wow.
The TBI does an exceptional job of portraying emotion; or the ability to emotionally connect the listener to the music playing. This is a very intimate sounding piece that brings me back to the very few spine chilling moments I've had with a buddy's 2a3 SET amp which used massive Electra-Print transformers along with dual mono Promitheus Reference TVC's. That's quite a testament if you ask me. For this little piece of gear to reach those levels of refinement, air, body, emotion, texture, bass, etc. is really just crazy.
Now, i can't tell you how the TBI does with difficult speaker loads or even speakers with big crossover components as I'm using a single fullrange driver with nothing but speaker wire in between. But I do know that this seems to be an incredible match and quite possibly the best I've ever heard the Mark Audios sound. For once I feel that the Mark Audios are actually being used to their potential and the amplifier/preamp isn't holding them back.
So, onto the other testing. I'll make this short. I used the TBI as a power amp with the Twin Audio Tube pre for about 10 minutes and just wasn't impressed. There was a smoothness to the midrange that was nice, there was also an extended amount of bass and body to the bass, but it seemed as if the performance took a step back. While the tube pre didn't entirely remove the presentation that I'm loving so much with the TBi, it did obviously reduce it. To be fair, the tube pre was only used for about 15 minutes. And with the iron-rich design of the Twin Audio I know this wasn't nearly enough time for the pre to reach operating temps or get into the groove. I'll have to test this more later this evening or perhaps this weekend when I've got a few hours to warm up the preamp and give it time to show what it's really made of.
Other quirks, the binding posts. While it doesn't bother me TOO much that it only accepts straight wire, it does put a kink in my ability to use my speaker cable with banana plugs. If they DO accept bananas, I can't figure it out. I tried removing what looked like a cap on the posts to no avail; so I was left to assume that it only accepts raw wire. If I decide to keep the TBI, these will be changed to Cardas. Jan did not advise that the RCA's themselves be changed as they are supposedly PCB direct.
I'm going to do a lot more listening to the TBI throughout the weekend and play with different cables/wires and speaker placement to get the setup completely dialed in. From there I will determine if I should keep the TBI and sell off the rest of my gear. While I may not think one setup is "better" than the other, I do think that each has it's own superior strengths to the other. Perhaps two polar opposite ways of portraying the music. One warm, inviting, full and a bit colored although with a touch of HF roll off. The other is clean, pure, and with a bit more forward presentation. Will report back after I've got 50hrs or so of listening.
Cheers,
Steven
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Hi Steven,
Many thanks for the review.
I have a very similar experience to you .
I have another TPA 3116 board obtained from Aliexpress and this drives the Markaudio 12p in superpensil. I presume the TBi uses the same chip.
There is great synergy in the pairing .
The timbre of piano and string instruments is the best I heard.
cheers
kp93300
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I've used my stock Millenia MG3 for a couple of years in my bedroom system, where I've been enthralled by its wonderful clear 3D sound. The only change from stock is the use of an Astron linear Power supply. I've owned nearly 20 "class D" amps over the last 20 years, so I have a good idea of their strengths and weaknesses.
I'd never tried it in my big system, where my modded N-Core NC-400 has done superb duty. However, the N-Core has had a problem lately and Hypex is repairing a module, so I'm swapping around my MG3 and my other amp, a Cullen modded PS-Audio GC-250 (Icepower) amp.
My speakers are 96 db/w/m sensitive Daedalus DA-RMA v2s.
When I switched from the N-Core to the PS Audio, the sound became slightly muffled and more distant, with the highs not as clear and distinct. Still very good sound, but not quite as in-room sounding, with a bit of soundstage flattening. Bass power and control were similarly excellent.
Today I switched to the MG3. The sense of immediacy returned, with a soundstage that was very nearly as open and clear as the N-core.
This is indeed a very fine sounding piece.
That said, there are some give ups. The bass clarity and snap is reduced compared to either of the other 2- not flabby or woolly, but the clarity and impact of bass drum skins is reduced and more indistinct. These are areas both the N-core and the PS Audio excel in, so it is a bit unfair. That said, the bass tonality is still very satisfying nonetheless.
The upper registers are more distinct and lively than the PS Audio, but there is a slight forced quality to them, with a a bit of edge, compared to the other 2 amps- just not as smooth and liquid on top. This is pretty minor though, and doesn't get in the way of the music to a great degree. It is also the kind of thing that cable rolling or mods may improve or eliminate.
All said, this little amp might not kill my giants, but it stands tall in their company. At 1/4 or 1/8th the list price of the others, in a system of high sensitivity or a smallish room this simple amp is a real find. It makes a great backup amp too. I'm sure I'll enjoy it greatly while waiting for my main to return.
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There were a couple of Ncore owners that sold them after hearing the tour TBI amp in their system. They said that they liked the midrange of the modded TBI amp better. One TBI amp owner had a shoot-out with the Merrill monos, and the Merrill owner thought they sounded the same.
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Since I own both amps I will upgrade the connectors and wiring in the MG3 and do more comparisons, possibly with my audio group. The idea that this wonderful amp can be made better relatively cheaply and easily seems like a no brainer.
My N-core has Cardas and Furutech CF connectors, upgraded input and power wiring, and Ric Schultz's custom Wima caps. These mods notably improved the N-cores, which originally had some glare and a bit of a hi-fi-ish sound, while still sounding very good otherwise. Maybe the modded MG3 will be similarly elevated, but as it is my N-cores outpoint the MG3, but as I said, not by a big margin, which is pretty amazing as it is.
Ignoring the nitpicking, I could live with this amp long term as-is in my main system. It is very fast and transparent, with a great highly focused 3D soundstage and wonderful, natural tonality. Who would think that this sound quality could be had for a few hundred $?
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I have not heard the N-Cores but have two of the upgraded TBI MG3s with the upgraded connectors and they are wonderful sounding amps. The only downfall currently is that they are in my great room which is very large with 17" ceiling and even with my new Super V's which are about 97db efficient I can't play them as loud as I would like sometimes. I will soon be finished with a dedicated building 20x30x10 ft. and I'm hopeful that they will have enough power in this new room as I really like the clarity and realism that they convey.
I would recommend that anyone looking at a low watt amp to give them a try. To me, so far they are the exception to class D or BD? and are really a great bargain.
I'm happy that others have had the opportunity to try these amps. Thanks to O. Tom for bringing them to my attention in this thread, I am lucky to have them in my system.
Greg
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So anybody still using the TBI Millenia MG3's? I've not owned one, but the design intrigues me. Wondering if these have been over-shadowed by something newer/better...
I was also wondering about using them as mono amps to get better dynamics on less efficient speakers. A few posts suggested it worked by using just the left channel input, but I'm curious to know if one could get more power out of them by splitting the signal to both inputs. You would then run 2 sets of speaker wire individually to each the tweeter and woofer on a single bi-wireable speaker.