AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: SoCalWJS on 24 Jan 2012, 04:16 am

Title: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 24 Jan 2012, 04:16 am
I've been fiddling around with MANY things on my setup trying to improve the sound with respect to soundstage (OK), focus (OK), depth (meh), and overall response (fair). Finally decided to change the crossover setting from the factory setting to "large".

......wow... :drool:

I mean WOW!!!!!!! :banana piano:

OK, things changed drastically. The most obvious thing is frequency response - Pete Belassco's Deeper now HITS the low notes in the room - easily.

Soundstage depth DISAPPEARED. Aggggghhhhhhhhhhh!

System for two channel is Oppo-95, Modwright LS100 (tubes rolled). Emotina XPA-1's, feeding LS-6'es with Platinum Sonicap upgrades. Mix of interconnects/speaker wire (Emotiva and Monster) (2 GIK 242 Absorbors, angled bookcases in the coners with stuffing behind, and Polyfill in the front wall upper corners)

Does this mean I need MORE bass treatment???? :scratch:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jan 2012, 05:29 am
A couple of things.

One, post pics of your room.

Secondly, from what I have been told by some of the amplifier guru's is that the Emotiva gear is well designed but built to hit a low price point. So the parts quality is not exactly top notch. I hear that upgrading the parts quality on some of that gear goes a long way. That could be holding the system back a little.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: morganc on 24 Jan 2012, 06:17 am
I would also say the weak link out of all of your nice gear is the amplifier.  I don't think Emotiva is known for Soundstage and Imaging, but I bet someone on this thread could recommend an amp that would pair well with your system.   
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 24 Jan 2012, 01:46 pm
Yeah, it's probabably not the best amp - just trying to figure out why there was depth before, but it got reduced by changing the internal crossover settings on the speakers. :scratch:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jan 2012, 02:48 pm
If the only thing that changed was the bass management settings and your depth of sound stage got worse then that shows a clear room related effect going on. You now have more standing wave type bass energy. And the bass management system doesn't effect the extreme bottom end. Below 35Hz is not effected by the adjustments that you made. So Pete's Deeper track should have gone just as low before. If it sounds deeper now then you surely picked up some room gains just above 35Hz.

Post room pics.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: morganc on 24 Jan 2012, 03:52 pm
Yeah, it's probabably not the best amp - just trying to figure out why there was depth before, but it got reduced by changing the internal crossover settings on the speakers. :scratch:

Oh I see.   I mis read your initial post.   :duh:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: mojave on 24 Jan 2012, 06:14 pm
We have used Deeper by Pete Belasco at our last two subwoofer GTG's. Here is a maximum output chart taken digitally straight from the CD showing at what frequency the low bass notes are located. The lowest note is about 25-26 Hz.

(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=235157&d=1327428816)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 24 Jan 2012, 09:55 pm
I posted some pictures earlier in Dave's forum - here are a couple (Please be merciful - the room is a mess and in a constant state of change).
It is NOT a dedicated room. Anne and I talk about an addition that would include a dual purpose room (combined HT with an eye towards 2 channel). The room measures roughly 17'6" x 15'6", with a cathedral ceiling that is lowest at the front wall (behind the speakers) at 8 feet and tallest at the back - 12'. The back wall drops back down to about 6', then opens to the lower floor great room, so it is nowhere near a sealed room. There is a sliding glass door to a balcony on the left side, and a sliding closet door on the right side. Both of these are covered by medium/heavy curtains. The opening at the rear of the room is also closed of by curtains. I have GIK 242's for the first side wall reflection points, and I have angled my DVD/Blu-ray cases along the front wall/corners, filling the space behind with blankets and pillows. There are also now temporary ceiling corner traps at the front wall corners that are stuffed with polyfil.
Overall showing the front wall (camera not wide angle enough)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56917)
Front left corner:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56918)
Yes, the cat immediately found a new napping spot
Front right corner:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56919)

(gotta convince  somebody in the house that hoarding is a bad thing......
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: signatureaudiolabs on 25 Jan 2012, 04:27 pm
Quote
Yes, the cat immediately found a new napping spot
I think we found your problem  :D
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 25 Jan 2012, 04:32 pm
Jeesh, Everybody knows the Cat Trap goes right behind your Class A amp.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: nickd on 25 Jan 2012, 06:21 pm
Time to measure from the listening seat. You need need to know if you have peaks or dips big or small. Then start moving things around & tweeking your traps and bass management settings.

That celing may be giving you some trouble. :dunno:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: freerider on 25 Jan 2012, 09:28 pm
I'm no expert, but the CD racks might to be akin to just having a wall there.  Solid and dense.  This is not the recommended setup for LS6's, which require a good 5-6 feet from walls.  (I know, my setup is a major violator of this law)

Wouldn't it help to move those cd racks out from behind the LS6's, and put some traps in the corners of the room?

Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jan 2012, 10:25 pm
Time to measure from the listening seat. You need need to know if you have peaks or dips big or small. Then start moving things around & tweeking your traps and bass management settings.

That celing may be giving you some trouble. :dunno:
I'm not sure about the cathedral ceiling either. I've talked to several different people and gotten a wide variety of answers: Not that big of a deal; treat with absorption; and use diffusors.  :scratch:
Since it is a solid wood ceiling, I'd like to do the correct thing first so I don't leave a bunch of holes where I removed the first effort.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 25 Jan 2012, 10:28 pm
 Lose the CD jewel cases.  Install more Cats.

This would be step one for me.

Get those CD's out of the jewel cases and into cd books.  One for Jazz, One for rock and one for everything else.  200 cd's per book.  Then you can lose the shelves all together.  How many cd's do you have?  600?

I put a little alpha sticky tab so I can find stuff.  I have a "Favorites" cd book as well.  It is a 50 cd case.  File all of the liner notes in a drawer.  You will eventually download them all into a media tank anyway. 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 25 Jan 2012, 10:31 pm
I'm not sure about the cathedral ceiling either. I've talked to several different people and gotten a wide variety of answers: Not that big of a deal; treat with absorption; and use diffusors.  :scratch:
Since it is a solid wood ceiling, I'd like to do the correct thing first so I don't leave a bunch of holes where I removed the first effort.

I have the same type of sloped ceiling. It was a problem for the Point Source speakers but significantly less of a problem for the Line Source.   
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jan 2012, 10:36 pm
I'm no expert, but the CD racks might to be akin to just having a wall there.  Solid and dense.  This is not the recommended setup for LS6's, which require a good 5-6 feet from walls.  (I know, my setup is a major violator of this law)

Wouldn't it help to move those cd racks out from behind the LS6's, and put some traps in the corners of the room?
I moved the cabinets after a chat with Dave at RMAF. They are NOT super solid - leftovers from our early days when we were starting out - I think they were like $60/each if I remember correctly. They have that super thin back panel. If anything, I would think that they might vibrate, but it is packed so tightly with DVD's on the shelves and padding behind, that I don't think it's a problem. The speakers are actually about 35" out from the front wall. Trying to figure out if I want to pull everything out from behind and put a piece of OC702 right behind the book cases and then custom fit triangles of something (OC702?) behind the panel all the way to the top.
Also, I have absolutely no place else in the entire house to put the bookcases. :oops:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jan 2012, 10:38 pm
Lose the CD jewel cases.  Install more Cats.

This would be step one for me.

Get those CD's out of the jewel cases and into cd books.  One for Jazz, One for rock and one for everything else.  200 cd's per book.  Then you can lose the shelves all together.  How many cd's do you have?  600?

I put a little alpha sticky tab so I can find stuff.  I have a "Favorites" cd book as well.  It is a 50 cd case.  File all of the liner notes in a drawer.  You will eventually download them all into a media tank anyway.
It's actually almost all DVD's with a few Blu-rays thrown in for good measure. Somewhere under 500 on the 2 cases - CD's are in a side alcove.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 25 Jan 2012, 10:44 pm
You have Emotiva XPA-1's? I would kill for those. Those are the big statement monoblocks, $1000 each, I doubt they are causing you SQ problems.

They actually have a pretty solid rep for amps.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jan 2012, 10:46 pm
Jeesh, Everybody knows the Cat Trap goes right behind your Class A amp.
""Beast" goes just about wherever he wants. About 1 1/2 years old - raised him from approximately 8-10 days old after a citizen brought it into the PD lobby. This lady was in tears saying the mother had abondoned the kittens (2 of them). Said there was no way she had the time to dropper feed them. I took one and a Dispatcher took the other.
It's tough for me to get real angry at him at this point. Guess where his favorite sleeping place used to be? On top of the Lex MC-12. :banghead:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jan 2012, 10:49 pm
You have Emotiva XPA-1's? I would kill for those. Those are the big statement monoblocks, $1000 each, I doubt they are causing you SQ problems.

They actually have a pretty solid rep for amps.
Yup, XPA-1's. Always wanted to have mono blocks. BIG, MANLY MONOBLOCKS (wish they were Manley monoblocks  :green:)
They are great with respect to effortless power. Great bass.

Soundstage........... :dunno: The jury is out at my house, but I have HUGE room issues to try to overcome.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 25 Jan 2012, 11:02 pm
Tonepub's mag had an article recently reviewing their bottom end amp, the UPA-2 and he didn't have much to complain about. Ran them with expensive speakers and compared them to pricier gear.

I wouldn't trade my Two for anything other than XPA-1's like you have and then if I were going to do anything to them, might have them modded, Bybee rails or the like. But those look like sweet amps with gobs of headroom.

 I hope to one day find a pair on the cheap just to have them.

 Try getting all that stuff out from behind your speakers, and minimize the stuff inbetween, give them more room to breathe. And treatments too, I'm at that stage next as well. Put your gear away from your speakers if you can. A lot of people like to cluster everything together in the same place but I think it is detrimental to the sonics.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: PDR on 25 Jan 2012, 11:13 pm
If you like the Emotiva on your Maggies, you might really like the Sunfire gear.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 25 Jan 2012, 11:28 pm
Oh no, not for these. I'm running Virtue and likely to stick with them when the Three comes out. Batteries not AC for starters.

 I just wouldn't kick them out if I had a pair.

 Sunfire, no thanks. Not a big HT sub guy and prefer performance over WAF and small size. Hell, the more I look at them, I don't think I care for Emotiva's subs either.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 25 Jan 2012, 11:28 pm
Ehh! CD, DVD or Blue Ray file em away in books and lose the shelves. 

My ceiling slopes from 10 ft. to 24 ft.  It is wall board with an acoustic spray on coating.  Read cottage cheese.   It made the AV123 850's sound horrible when we moved into this house.  My old Magnapans liked the sloped ceiling.  The LS6's seem to be friendly to them as well. 

I have a feeling you felt rather Manley when you set up those big Emotiva Monoblocks.  I think Manley or Rogue would be my next amp choice.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Jan 2012, 11:57 pm
SoCalWJS, you have a big flat untreated section of wall right between your speakers. That will really eat up your sound stage depth.

I have a 60" big screen in the middle of mine and when listening to music I used to through a thick comforter over it.

Now I have some of Dave's diffuser panels that I stand up in front of it.

Doing away with the surface reflections of my screen makes my sound stage much deeper.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 Jan 2012, 12:29 am
SoCalWJS, you have a big flat untreated section of wall right between your speakers. That will really eat up your sound stage depth.

I have a 60" big screen in the middle of mine and when listening to music I used to through a thick comforter over it.

Now I have some of Dave's diffuser panels that I stand up in front of it.

Doing away with the surface reflections of my screen makes my sound stage much deeper.
Yeah, it's my DIY painted on screen for HT. Plan is to throw some sort of diffusors next to that wall (in front of the "screen") when listening to 2 channel, then move them to a different location for HT.
I keep waiting for Dave's site to get up and running so I can figure out which is best for my issues.
I've tried reading up on diffusors, but I think I'm getting more confused. Which do I need? What Prime # would work best? What depth? What material?. I should get serious about running REW to find out where my deficiencies are. I've measured by hand (using a RatShack digital meter and a couple of different CD's), but it looks like all of my major issues are below about 120-150, and the diffousors seem to want #'s that are in higher frequencies to work with..
I figure the (whatever) diffusors on the front wall along with treatment at the first reflection point on the ceiling (absorbers? Diffusors?) are a good next step.
Then Power treatment. Then cables.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: PDR on 26 Jan 2012, 12:45 am
Hehe....meant the amps RClark....not the subs..
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 Jan 2012, 01:01 am
Ehh! CD, DVD or Blue Ray file em away in books and lose the shelves. 

My ceiling slopes from 10 ft. to 24 ft.  It is wall board with an acoustic spray on coating.  Read cottage cheese.   It made the AV123 850's sound horrible when we moved into this house.  My old Magnapans liked the sloped ceiling.  The LS6's seem to be friendly to them as well. 

I have a feeling you felt rather Manley when you set up those big Emotiva Monoblocks.  I think Manley or Rogue would be my next amp choice.
Couldn't rationalize big, high quality tube monoblocks at that point in time. Maybe someday. It would have to be quite the sales pitch for Anne to buy off on that one.
(maybe I can sneak some hardware upgrades in if we ever do the addition :thumb:)
Boy. Wouldn't some big Manleys (or whatever) add to the A/C bill?

For now, room treatments if I can figure it out.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 26 Jan 2012, 01:04 am
http://www.radford.edu/shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html

that's probably my plan. with 8lb rockwool. You can build a stupid amount of those including floor to ceiling corner traps for less than $500.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 26 Jan 2012, 01:06 am
Hehe....meant the amps RClark....not the subs..

 Yeah, me too, no I'm quite happy, I think the only advantage XPA-1's would give me is headroom. I'll take a 250watt version of what I have now and be plenty good.

 Still would love a pair, and I don't think they're the weak link in that picture.

 (oh, gotcha, Sunfire Amps.. ;) )
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: mlbrand on 26 Jan 2012, 04:50 am
I agree with others that your hardware is not the problem here, it is acoustics and speaker positioning. My LS-6's are in an 18'x19' room, and they didn't really shine until I added acoustical treatment, and went with two sub-woofers. I then did measurements to determine the best location for my subs.

Your speakers seem to be a little close to the back wall. Sound stage depth generally increases as you move speakers away from a back wall, and the bass increases as you move a speaker towards the back wall. Note that your sound stage went away when you increased the bass.

Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: MichaelHiFi on 26 Jan 2012, 05:06 am
You started out with at least OK depth, then you added bass and lost the depth. But you really didn't lose what you already had, maybe you lost some of your midrange in the mix when you dialed up the bass region.

Your room doesn't look bad. In fact, from all the shots I've seen posted from LS6 owners (early on), your room is one of the best! IMO, these speakers can sound bright, even overbearing in a bad room, and getting good depth often isn't easy.

I really struggled to get good imaging out of my 6's. But in the end, they were awesome. They were replaced with Dynaudio Confidence C1's which offered better depth, but inferior sound. MBL's replaced the Dyns (after the Dyns burned  :evil:) with even better depth in the same room, magic really.

But what really added dimensionality to the 6's was a tube preamp. Wow. Radiohead, In Rainbows, played miles deep. I miss that. Yorke's voice would just trail....

I think moving them further into the room might help with image depth and perhaps even spiking them if they are not already spiked. My wife and I were constantly playing with placement. I mean really experimenting. We even tried tilted them incrementally. No that didn't work. We seemed as I recall to settle on 40" from back wall with a pretty good turn inward nearly facing toward the listening position but still being able to see the inward sides. The best tweaks were the platinum sonicaps and felting around all those tweeters to help with diffraction.

Of course outside of tweaks that opened the 6's up were an expensive amp and tube preamp but you have a pretty solid setup and a world class speaker so be patient. 

Our room was dead. It was heavily treated, perhaps too much so but it's so hard to determine what's best in a room. In our "new" home our room eats midbass. Just swallows it up. Our system sounds somewhat lifeless. So I'm starting from scratch with sound room treatment fundamentals and work from there.

I've even considered those crazy tuning cups (ATI zen or something). I sat in a room and was blown away (or tricked) at what those did for soundstage. So simple. SO EXPENSIVE! (But then, how much am I going to spend for room treatments  :scratch:)

Good luck and share with us what works.
I think your cat found the sweetspot  :lol:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 26 Jan 2012, 05:41 am
Michael,

It wasn't the room treatments that made your room sound so great it was all 20 guys on the couch listening at the same time.  The dampening factor increased when they were all full of beer wine and food. 

I agree with you Michael.  He doesn't have a bad room.  Just a bad paint contractor.  I swear to god I'm coming to your house with some paint, some carpet and some cd, dvd and Blue Ray storage.    We'll put a frame on your DIY screen.   Better yet lets go hunting for a motorized screen that would drop in front of the center diffusion material on the back wall.

I have the same problem as my big TV is in between my speakers.  The sound depth could be so much better.  I think there is a drop down screen and projector in my future.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 Jan 2012, 01:52 pm
Michael,

It wasn't the room treatments that made your room sound so great it was all 20 guys on the couch listening at the same time.  The dampening factor increased when they were all full of beer wine and food. 

I agree with you Michael.  He doesn't have a bad room.  Just a bad paint contractor.  I swear to god I'm coming to your house with some paint, some carpet and some cd, dvd and Blue Ray storage.    We'll put a frame on your DIY screen.   Better yet lets go hunting for a motorized screen that would drop in front of the center diffusion material on the back wall.

I have the same problem as my big TV is in between my speakers.  The sound depth could be so much better.  I think there is a drop down screen and projector in my future.
I'm hesitant to put much money into anything in this room unless it can be used in the proposed addition (something similar to what Skiman has - we've made a bunch of sketches and Anne has an Architect that she wants to take a shot at the basics) The tape around the screen is gone, the stain in the carpet is gone.
It's all the extra cr#p that is in the room that needs to go that pisses me off.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: mlbrand on 26 Jan 2012, 07:57 pm
Are those two sub-woofers behind your right speaker? If so have you ever tried using them in "two channel" (2.1 I guess) and crossed over with your mains?
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 Jan 2012, 08:24 pm
Are those two sub-woofers behind your right speaker? If so have you ever tried using them in "two channel" (2.1 I guess) and crossed over with your mains?
Yes, those are subs, but....

They are connected to my Lexicon for HT. I use a Modwright LS-100 for 2 channel with a passthrough for the front L/R when I do HT. I haven't figured out a way to utilize a sub for 2 channel through the Modwright and still be able to use the LFE/2 subs option of the Lex.
The Lex does have digital EQ which is very good, but I prefer the sound through the Modwright for music and several concert Blu-rays/DVD's which feature a high quality 2 channel option.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: WC on 26 Jan 2012, 09:00 pm
Yes, those are subs, but....

They are connected to my Lexicon for HT. I use a Modwright LS-100 for 2 channel with a passthrough for the front L/R when I do HT. I haven't figured out a way to utilize a sub for 2 channel through the Modwright and still be able to use the LFE/2 subs option of the Lex.
The Lex does have digital EQ which is very good, but I prefer the sound through the Modwright for music and several concert Blu-rays/DVD's which feature a high quality 2 channel option.

So what subs are they? I would assume the issue is with the subs not the Modwright, since the modwright has pre-amp outs that could be used with the subs. Most subs have issues doing double duty.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 Jan 2012, 09:23 pm
So what subs are they? I would assume the issue is with the subs not the Modwright, since the modwright has pre-amp outs that could be used with the subs. Most subs have issues doing double duty.
Featured in the photo:
Top: JL Audio f113 Fathom
Bottom: Velodyne F1500r

Not pictured:
MFW-15 located to the left just beside the left most front row seat (filled a nasty void at the primary listening position)
So I could potentially route the preouts of the MW to the JL then back to the mains? I am really starting to like the bass of the Ls-6's, it's just that the soundstage depth went away.
I even took my wife in to listen to the speakers after the change of the crossover settings. She said she liked the bass better, but that "the depth disappeared" :thumbdown:
She doesn't listen very often, but that was her first comment and I wasn't really soliciting input. She has very good ears and I trust her input when I'm hearing new gear.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: WC on 26 Jan 2012, 09:53 pm

So I could potentially route the preouts of the MW to the JL then back to the mains?

Looking at the sub connections, it looks like an either or proposition not both. The preouts on the MW will come out full range which will work in two channel if you would like to use the crossover in the sub. From the Lexicon you are getting an LFE signal which bypasses the subs crossover. Only way to get it to work properly is if the sub allows for both LFE and two channel connection with switching between them or your preamp has a HT bypass sub inlet, such as Emotiva's USP-1 pre or Parasound's 2100 pre.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: mlbrand on 27 Jan 2012, 01:57 am
So what subs are they? I would assume the issue is with the subs not the Modwright, since the modwright has pre-amp outs that could be used with the subs. Most subs have issues doing double duty.

I ask because I have a difficult to tame, almost square room, and 2.1 channel with subs crossed over at 80 hz sounds WAY better in my room than the LS-6's full range by themselves. In my room the LS-6's and the deep bass (subs) need to be in different locations for the best sound, even with bass traps and lots of acoustical treatment. But to each his own, and every one has their own individual room and gear limitations. Good luck in your 2 channel bliss quest!
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: HT cOz on 27 Jan 2012, 02:06 am
I got an acoustically transparent screen and treated the space behind the screen with Rockwool. 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 1 Feb 2012, 09:35 pm
Decided to take the plunge and odered 2 pairs of AQD-1's from PI Audio and some OC703 from Acoustimac as starting points for real treatments. Figure it will be a couple of weeks before everything arrives and I can start messing around with that.
In the meantime, I figured I'd go ahead and take some measurements. Dug out my Radio Shack Digital sound meter and the Alan Parsons Soundcheck2 CD. Plan on checking after I install the OC703.

YUCK!!!!! Terrible measurements. ("Fast" "C")(by hand close to main listening position - tried to keep everything as steady as possible and used my best guess for the average of each level - they still fluctuate a bit at each frequency). I knew it would be bad given my room, but this is disappointing. I got lots of work ahead of me.

Dug out an old Creative Labs Soundblaster external soundcard - gotta figure out how to connect it, download REW to a laptop, and see if I can get something usable.

 :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 2 Feb 2012, 08:46 pm
That's a great first step.  We all have to start somewhere.   I'm going to start directly behind the speaker.  Should I get measurements first or just go for it. 

There is no way I can get the back of the LS6 3 feet from the front wall. There are a whole bunch of ports back there.   If they are only 1.8 feet then what type of absorption should go behind them.  What Fequency and what kind of reduction in loudness?
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Feb 2012, 09:22 pm
Wasn't quite sure I was gonna post this yet - I'd like to get some confirmation, but I'm reasonably confident in the new results.....

Went back to the basics of room nodes and the rules of 1/3, 1/5, 1/7, etc. Moved the speakers closer to the front wall so that the center of the face of the speaker is roughly 42.5" from the front wall - 1/5 of the length of the front to back (partial) wall. I'm now just under 10' from the front of the speakers and they are about 8' apart - roughly 3' from the side walls. Angled to cross right at the primary listening position. Remeasured.

This is the part I'm still waiting for confirmation on - how accurate is the RS Digital SPL meter?

I remembered there are issues, especially at low frequencies. I found a whole bunch of "correction" tables for the Analog version, so I'm not sure if the Digital is exactly the same.  :scratch:

This is the correction table I used: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/RadioShack_33-2050/33-2050.htm


Anyway, my frequency response for both channels using the AP Soundcheck2 CD is now +/- 3 db from 25 hz -over 8khz, and only down 5.5 at 20 Hz.  :thumb:


I seem to drop pretty bad starting at 8 kHz - too dead of a room?

Ah well, much happier with the measurements at any rate.


Imaging and focus good, Soundstage - Very wide and coherent (no obvious speaker location).

Depth?

 :thumbdown:

I will keep things as they are for now, add some OC703 2" in the corners behind the book cases and to a couple of other locations. AQD-1's in between the speakers on the front wall (with  OC703 just to the outside of that - potential front wall first reflection point), and some more OC703 on the first reflection point of the sloped cathedral ceiling.

I'll take more measurements after that and see what, if anything changes, and hope for improvements on the other things (DEPTH). Have to get a different soundcard if I want to try to use REW.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Feb 2012, 09:37 pm
Don't forget that you have to do each speaker individually or the response will be all over the place.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Feb 2012, 09:58 pm
Don't forget that you have to do each speaker individually or the response will be all over the place.
Yeah - it does fluctuate a bit. Honestly, I'm a little sick of listening to frequency sweeps, squinting at the display, and writing down the numbers at this point :green:

I know from earlier testing that I have a much bigger mid-bass "suck out" on the right speaker for whatever reason. :scratch: (but I'll check again at some point to see what's changed)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: mlbrand on 3 Feb 2012, 04:17 am
Yeah - it does fluctuate a bit. Honestly, I'm a little sick of listening to frequency sweeps, squinting at the display, and writing down the numbers at this point :green:

I know from earlier testing that I have a much bigger mid-bass "suck out" on the right speaker for whatever reason. :scratch: (but I'll check again at some point to see what's changed)

I've been there and done that, it's really tough doing manual measurements. Get the right soundcard to use REW, it's well worth it.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Feb 2012, 05:25 am
I've been there and done that, it's really tough doing manual measurements. Get the right soundcard to use REW, it's well worth it.
I want to do that, but there doesn't seem to be a clear concensus on which soundcard to get. I have one in my "shopping cart" at Amazon, but I'm still not convinced that it's a good choice. (Behringer U-Control UCA202 USB)
I'm running Windows 7 on the laptop I would be using. RS Digital SPL- don't think I want to buy something more expensive at this point, but........
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 3 Feb 2012, 05:33 am
I'll snipe this question in there since the right people are looking, do planars require a different measuring technique than box speakers?

To the OP look at the omnimic. Everything you need in one box. Better quality than a rat shack meter and no need of a fancy soundcard. That's what I'm doing. Its at partsexpress and you can also view the manual there. Pretty damn cool. If I had a super nice mic and a super nice soundcard I would do REW, but I dont. Omnimic is one package, easy to use, and very robust software suite.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Feb 2012, 02:36 pm
I'll snipe this question in there since the right people are looking, do planars require a different measuring technique than box speakers?

To the OP look at the omnimic. Everything you need in one box. Better quality than a rat shack meter and no need of a fancy soundcard. That's what I'm doing. Its at partsexpress and you can also view the manual there. Pretty damn cool. If I had a super nice mic and a super nice soundcard I would do REW, but I dont. Omnimic is one package, easy to use, and very robust software suite.
Hadn't run into Omnimic. Interesting. That's a fair chunk of change. Might be worth it after reading all the problems people have had trying to get REW to work with brand/model x soundcard and OS whatever. Have to think about this one.
Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 3 Feb 2012, 07:19 pm
Doesn't appear to be much more expensive than. A nice soundcard and mic, (they were just on sale for 249), and besides that, for guys like you and me, it's apparently both easier to learn than REW and with the latest updates, pretty much on par.


 go download the manual and check it out, you'll be pumped.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 10 Feb 2012, 04:46 pm
Doesn't appear to be much more expensive than. A nice soundcard and mic, (they were just on sale for 249), and besides that, for guys like you and me, it's apparently both easier to learn than REW and with the latest updates, pretty much on par.


 go download the manual and check it out, you'll be pumped.
Well, the Omnimic showed back up as in stock at Parts Express, so I pulled the trigger - should be here Tuesday.
I did my first round of OC703. It definitely sounds different, with a bit better separation of instruments and individual voices. Seem to have picked up a bit of glare somewhere around 3-5k (guessing) - no clue as to why. Didn't really change anything else.
Think I'll keep everything as is for now, wait for the Omnimic. I'll take out all the treatments, measure and get a baseline, then start adding/moving -measure each time and see what's going on.
Fun times ahead.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: tasar on 10 Feb 2012, 07:22 pm
Great......any Omnimic-like solutions for MAC users ? Is the Rat shack SPL meter w. onboard "mic" unreliable without certain external cards ? Seems Apple's internal cards would be quite good.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 10 Feb 2012, 10:36 pm
 Where did you place the OC 703?  Are there any other treatments in the room.  Good news Mrs Cheese approved the Art Panels for the left and right first reflection points!  And We're Off to the Races.  She wants a new couch I want Art Panels from GIK.  I have to beat her to the punch.

Do you have any AC filtering in the system?  I have the same glare point.  I'm pretty sure it's the AC line.  The battery pre helped but it is affecting everything.  I think I'm gonna havta to buy a PI BUSS from Dave.   
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 11 Feb 2012, 02:12 am
Where did you place the OC 703?  Are there any other treatments in the room.  Good news Mrs Cheese approved the Art Panels for the left and right first reflection points!  And We're Off to the Races.  She wants a new couch I want Art Panels from GIK.  I have to beat her to the punch.

Do you have any AC filtering in the system?  I have the same glare point.  I'm pretty sure it's the AC line.  The battery pre helped but it is affecting everything.  I think I'm gonna havta to buy a PI BUSS from Dave.   
3 OC703 panels vertically behind each bookcase (2 on bottom 1 on top so it runs clear to ceiling) and pillows stuffed behind them. GIK 242's at first reflection point. Temporary wedges holding polyfil on front ceiling corners. I don't want to wrap anything in cloth until I'm pretty close to final on where what goes. Figure I'll hold off til I get the Omnimic.
No power treatment yet - that's going to have to wait at least until next months budget ( I don't count the Monster power strip - nothing fancy)
Glad you get to use some GIK stuff. Still wiaiting to hear on shipment of the PI Audio AQD-1's.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 14 Feb 2012, 03:56 pm
How are things going?  Good sound yet?
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 15 Feb 2012, 12:26 am
How are things going?  Good sound yet?
Guess I'll answer the second question first: Good sound? Yes. Great sound no.
How are things going? Frustrated again.
The Omnimic showed up this afternoon right on schedule. First step after getting the software installed is to get a calibration file for the mic. Their website says that they have the file - just "right-click" on the link and "save" or "save-as" to a file in the software. When I right-click, my only option is "properties". I can't save or save-as.
Sent an email to Dayton (manufacturer - in Dayton Ohio) support. Hopefully they can just send the file back via attachment and I can get it that way. Means another day of delays though. :thumbdown:
Ah well. Anne's out of town, bought a few more Blurays, and I'll crank some action flicks this evening. :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 15 Feb 2012, 02:13 am
Get loud brother!
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 15 Feb 2012, 03:43 am
yeah still haven't bought mine yet, post pics of your first graphs and all that  :green:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 15 Feb 2012, 04:57 am
Get loud brother!
U-571. Haven't seen it since it first came out on DVD. Popcorn flick, but.........

What a sonic tour de force on Blu!!!

wow....................
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 15 Feb 2012, 05:03 am
yeah still haven't bought mine yet, post pics of your first graphs and all that  :green:
If I can figure out how to do it, I will. Going to want input on the results anyway - not quite sure whether to post here or on the Acoustics circle.....
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 15 Feb 2012, 06:26 pm
I'll post here for now.....

The support people at Dayton responded to my email request for the calibration file quickly (assuming 8AM opening there) and I installed it w/o any difficulty. Spent about a half hour playing around with Omnimic and getting a general "feeling" of my current setup. Still trying to figure out a few things. Did come to a few quick conclusions.

This is all keeping my current treatments in place - OC703 behind the angled bookcases, and absorption at first side reflection points. Speakers approximately 1/7th of the room dimension from front wall, angled to point at primary listening position.

I have a dropout centered at 65hz that is about 6-7 db, and I have a boost centered at 150hz of about the same amplitude. Reverberation looks OK, but with a little bit of "ringing" at around 5khz (if I'm reading it right). Waterfall decay is uneven, quicker in the lower frequencies, then slower and slower as frequency increases.

Now to add more treatment and move speakers around. :bounce: :shake:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Feb 2012, 07:37 pm
Quote
Waterfall decay is uneven, quicker in the lower frequencies, then slower and slower as frequency increases.

You won't be able to get any useful data from the waterfall plots outside of an anechoic chamber or gated time window with zero room reflections.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 15 Feb 2012, 08:26 pm
You won't be able to get any useful data from the waterfall plots outside of an anechoic chamber or gated time window with zero room reflections.
....but the waterfalls look so cool   :green:

Thanks for that. I'll take any tips you've got.

I have managed to find a spot for the speakers further from the front wall where the bass response is pretty much the same and I regained some depth  :thumb:, but I lost some high frequency response. :scratch:

I can only take those sweeps for about a half hour at a time.

What was really weird was measuring FR through 5.1/7.3. My bass dropout was at 35hz.

I have much to do and learn.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Feb 2012, 08:29 pm
A drop off in the top end is expected in the room response measurements.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 17 Feb 2012, 06:55 pm
This is frustrating......... I'm giving up for awhile. Seems like I can get a couple of things right, but something else suffers. My plan of trying to have a good-great HT and 2 channel in this room just ain't gonna happen. :cry:

If I move the speakers far enough from the front wall to alleviate (not eliminate) a nasty dip in the 50-60 Hz range, and close enough together to get a good soundstage, the viewing angle to the screen from the seats to the side of the main listening position have a portion of the picture blocked by the speakers. :nono:
Regardless of what I do, if I move the speakers to where the view isn't blocked from the seats, I can not get a good soundstage and a reasonably flat frequency response.
Is there any chance that if I add more absorption to the corners, will this will get rid of the dip in the 50-60 Hz range? (reduce cancellation at the listening position)
I currently have the OC703 so that there are 6 pieces in each corner running floor to ceiling - 3 stacked on top of 3, so that they are effectively 6" deep and 2 feet across. Would it be better to cut them into the triangle shape and stack them ? (I think that would be 4 feet tall in each corner)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: LarryB on 17 Feb 2012, 08:15 pm
SoCalWJS:

The problems you are encountering are why I decided to use separate speakers for 2-channel and for HT.  For 2-channel I have large horns.  For HT I wanted 3 identical front speakers, and they had to not interfere with the screen, nor with my horns.  I decided on the Gallo Stradas both for their sonics, and their size.  The screen drops down in front of my horns, and the Stradas, mounted on Mapleshade stands, sit below the screen. (IMO most home screens are mounted too high; with the Stradas on the Mapleshade stands, the screen can be lowered to a proper eye level.)  They are also small enough so as to not compromise the output of my horns.  As you might have guessed, I also use separate electronics: A SET amp and very high quality 2-channel preamp for the music, and an Emotiva pre/pro and multi-channel amp for HT.

Danny makes some small speakers that might allow you to use them similarly.  I strongly recommend you give this a try.

Larry
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Feb 2012, 08:15 pm
Heavier damped corners will help. It will also tighten up the bottom end. Think thick tube traps...

You can also reset the bass management system to allow more base response. The Q of the circuit is at 70Hz. So while it might bring up the response at 50Hz to 60Hz it might get heavy at 80Hz or so. So play with that balance and see what you get.

Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: mlbrand on 27 Feb 2012, 01:39 am
SoCal, I know what you are going through. A few years ago I spent a lot of time trying to get a flat measured response in my listening room. I finally got it done, but the only way I could do it was to use two carefully located sub-woofers (MFW-15's), and cross them over with my LS-6's. To be honest, I'm not sure how anyone can ever get a flat low end with two channel. Where we locate our main speakers for best imaging, etc. is one of the worst locations for a flat low frequency response. It causes peaks and nulls. Maybe you should try a 2.1 system, ie use a subwoofer or two.

Or maybe Danny or other two channel guru's can tell us how you can get a flat low end doing two channel. You probably have to move the mains way out into the room (which most of us can't do). At any rate, I am very happy with how my system sounds now, whether it is for 2.1 channel music, or 7.1 channel movies.

At any rate, good luck.

Mike
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: kingdeezie on 27 Feb 2012, 01:51 am
Hey man,

Not to crap in the punch bowl, but I have the same exact problems with the same exact speakers.

I don't think you are can have your cake and eat it too unless you have a big room with ideal conditions.

I also have a projection screen in the middle of the speakers, with the same viewing problems as you do.

You can move them left, right, up, down, out, around, its not going to make a difference. You are always going to fix one problem, and create another.

I have been contemplating a different speaker for sometime now. The problem is, what else do you get for anything under 15K that can hang with these speakers with all the things they do right?

The problem is room size and positioning.

They need to be positioned properly, in a room big enough for their awesomeness. I feel like right now we are listening to a compromised version of the speaker.

I say F it, be happy, and try to find the best compromise or else you will end up hating what you have.

If you end up finding a solution, I am all freakin ears though man.  :thumb:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Feb 2012, 05:16 pm
There is just no getting around the fact that big speakers can load up a room.

When we had LS-6's at the RMAF show we had them in a room that was 13' by 19'.

(http://gr-research.com/mis/ls-6-1.jpg)

We got them to work in that room pretty well, but had to wall the room off with a heavy curtain. Then in the corners behind the curtains was some 12" thick foam wedges and batted rolls of insulation.

And the bass management setting was on the setting that attenuated the bass the most.

It just takes a little work, but you can make it work and work well. It's all about the room.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 27 Feb 2012, 06:28 pm
After much experimentation, I have placed the speakers in a position that is, for now, the best compromise. There is some depth to the soundstage on well recorded pieces (I have a CD-R of the Yuri Honing Trio performing "Walking on the Moon" that is starting to sound GREAT - The positioning of the drum set is phenomenal - height, angle - it's almost palpable). There is still a bad drop off in the 50-60 Hz range.

My plan is to cut the OC 703 into triangular wedges and stack them in the corners. There is a storm moving in today and tomorrow, and I need to do the cutting outside. I hope to have that portion done by Thursday. I have some diffusors ordered that have been delayed, but hopefully ship this week. After everything is together, I will remeasure and see what I have at that point.

The speakers are currently positioned so that the center of the drivers are about 57" off the front wall, the inside edges of the speakers about 91" apart, and about 106" from the primary listening position. The speakers are toed in rather sharply and the outside edge of each crosses just in front of the listening position. - It's weird at this point - if I lean in(forward) just a foot or so, I feel that I'm almost moving inside of the soundstage, but I know the response isn't as flat from the Omnimic.
 
Got a few other mods in mind.

**** UPS JUST delivered the no-rez and Electra tubes - THANKS Danny! :thumb:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 28 Feb 2012, 03:14 pm
...... maybe I won't get the OC 703 cut this week.....


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58692)


stubborn little guys:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58693)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 28 Feb 2012, 10:21 pm
Sunny So Cal.  Thanks for sharing your journey. 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Feb 2012, 11:58 pm
We hit 73 today.  :green:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: S Clark on 29 Feb 2012, 01:29 am
Mid 70's in Abilene.  Took the Goldwing out for a spin.  My peach trees have put on their annual sacrificial blooms.  Last year we had 90 degree days in March followed by a freeze in May. The summer was a hell that I don't want to think about. This year could be just as crazy.

Oh yeah, back to the topic.  I have my LS9's sounding pretty good on the low end at this time, but it took... tube traps, large multi thickness 703 panels, diffusers, diffusers, and diffusers.  I have a bit of bloom from 120-140 hz, but low end is very clean.  The room is big, but very irregular.  You just have to keep playing with it. 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 1 Mar 2012, 04:55 pm
Glad to hear it's warm where you are.  We've had summer conditions most of the winter in Cali.  We were asking for a refund on our ski passes at Sugar Bowl.  No Mo No Mo.  It is finally raining here/snowing up at Tahoe again.   

I've been messing around with some sleeping bags and big pillows to find the best way to proceed in tuning my room.   I'll need some thick stuff behind the speakers and looking to go with some Art GIK in the left and right first reflection points.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58818)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58819)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 1 Mar 2012, 10:34 pm
Sugar Bowl?

That was where I went when I was a still a kid in NorCal back in the day! Loved that place.

Well, the snow has pretty well melted here, but now the howling winds are passing through - maybe I'll get to the cutting the OC703 this weekend. In the meantime, my AQD-1's arrived.  :bounce: :bounce: Got them unpacked and placed where I thought I'd start with regard to placement based upon some reading, then turned on some music.

****The wind is really blowing too hard (drowns out any soft passages) and it's daytime, so my electricity is not at it's best, so, with that in mind.......

First impression - not so good. Things happened that I did not even know could happen, happened.  :banghead:  Moved them a bit to where my second choice was. Completely different, and much better  :thumb:.

I can tell that there is going to be a whole bunch of experimentation in the days ahead. Could be some late night listening sessions in the near future (again).

To those who say these things make little difference  :nono:


....and placing them w/o some experimentation can make things worse. :duh:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: edoggrc51 on 2 Mar 2012, 02:54 am
Where in SoCal are you?? I know a local guy guy who makes custom acoustic panels for a very good price. I compared his to my GIK's and could not really tell a difference so I bought a whole bunch from him. Took my system to another level.  :thumb:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 2 Mar 2012, 04:47 pm
Think 3 AM ride up the hill tommorrow morning.  5 feet of new snow. 

Where did you get the most bang for the buck with the AQD-1 diffusion?  I just gotta know!
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Mar 2012, 05:39 pm
Where in SoCal are you?? I know a local guy guy who makes custom acoustic panels for a very good price. I compared his to my GIK's and could not really tell a difference so I bought a whole bunch from him. Took my system to another level.  :thumb:
Live in the Mountains of the Inland Empire, South side of the Pass.

Mostly just playing around with placement of what I already have. Figure I've got a solid half-day of removing, cutting, and replacing the OC 703 before I give any thought to taking measurements again, then decide what's next. Thinking power conditioning in about a month (when I have another round of discretionary money to blow, errr, I mean improve my sound.  :green:)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Mar 2012, 05:57 pm
Think 3 AM ride up the hill tommorrow morning.  5 feet of new snow. 

Where did you get the most bang for the buck with the AQD-1 diffusion?  I just gotta know!
3 AM!!??!!  Yikes! I thought it was bad when when we left at around 4:30 from Davis! Hmmmmmm, Saturday with 5 feet of new snow? Does Sugar Bowl still cut off tickets at a reasonable number?

Right now, I've got 2 on the front wall between the speakers and 1 behind and slightly to the outside of each speaker. Have made a notable improvement on focus and depth, yet some things seem worse, and I don't think the diffusors could be responsible, so I'm guessing bad power. It was windy all last night, so I didn't bother with any critical listening. Maybe tonight I'll get serious about it. Looking like Sunday/Monday before I get a chance to try my next round of changes. It's going to be work. :cuss:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 2 Mar 2012, 07:21 pm
We are about an hour and a half from Davis.  Santa Rosa.  It's 11am, I'll make this fast I need to get to bed.  Bahaha.

I think my biggest problem is the center image in my case.  I'm glad that it is working for you.  Thick OC-703 behind the speakers and Diffusion in the center will help for me too.

I know I have bad power.  The last few nights we have been listening to a guy on his CB at the coast.  It helped with Hallies vocal runs on Idol monday night.  The refridgerator was keeping the beat as well.   
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 5 Mar 2012, 10:08 pm
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be sore for a couple of days (better be able to swing the clubs tomorrow  :dunno:).

Took about 2 1/2 hours, but I got what I wanted to get done, done. The OC 703 has been cut into triangles and stacked 4' high in each front corner. Had to empty/move 2 bookcases, get all the OC 703 downstairs, cut, back up the stairs, put the bookcases back, and get the DVD's back on the shelves. Fiberglass everywhere.

Let's see if this works............


Before:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59074)

After:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59075)

Omnimic 1/48th octave sine sweep, both channels with mono short sweep. Didn't notice that I didn't have the levels matched - not sure how big of a difference it makes.
WHen I checked each channel, the L/R still showed the drop at the 55-65 hz region, but neither was quite as bad as before, but the sum of both channels was considerably better. seemed to improve the dip up around 1.5 khz, but now I have a dip around 125 hz that's a bit worse. Gonna wait till tonight to do serious listening (bunch of appliances running now), but the bass seems a bit tighter.  :thumb:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 5 Mar 2012, 10:40 pm
Looks like the middle got much better.  Pity about your golf game though. 

Did you flip the crossover to "All On Bass"?  or are you still in the limiter mode?

 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 5 Mar 2012, 11:03 pm
Looks like the middle got much better.  Pity about your golf game though. 

Did you flip the crossover to "All On Bass"?  or are you still in the limiter mode?

 
Cutting 48 triangles down on the ground, getting up and down, up the stairs, down the stairs. Knees ain't what they used to be. Then I decided I needed to move the equipment rack a few inches. Unplug everything (mainly the Lex and the 6 channel Classe). Leaning over the back and squinting at all those blasted labels. Back was screaming at the end of all that. That took another 2 hours.

Really need to get back on my exercise program.

Still using the bass management system set at the "most bass" position. I'll hold off on bypassing it completely for now.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Mar 2012, 01:23 am
Don't worry about the narrow band wiggles, just the wide band peaks or dips.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 6 Mar 2012, 04:31 am
My knees hurt because there is a rain storm moving in No CAL tonight.  #1 concern in picking this house was NO STAIRS!  I hear it will be 80 tommorrow in LA. 

Everything is moving the right direction.   
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Mar 2012, 08:17 pm
OK, still playing around with this whole thing..........

I was reasonably happy with my specific speaker and room treatment placement. I got a reasonable soundstage with a bit of depth. I was enjoying listening to music. Life was pretty good.




..... but I'm never quite satisfied to the point where I stop looking for improvements, so I keep reading. I ran across a thread in the Steve Hoffman forum about the toe-in of speakers. SH posted this (actually, somebody else re-posted it for him) about the subject:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=7217768&postcount=37

Basically: listen to a mono vocal recording, swap cables so one speaker is out of phase, then adjust the toe-in so that you obtain the most diffuse image, then swap the cables back so speakers are in phase.

Anybody tried this? I don't think I have too many mono recordings - A Beatles CD if I recall correctly, and that's it.

I messed around with toe-in after reading this. Seems like I can get my choice - wide soundstage or deep, but not both. (I'm trying to rotate the speakers about their vertical axis so that frequency response stays close to the same - that's pretty good.)

What have others done with respect to toe-in on LS-6'es, and what have your results been?

Danny, what do you think about toe-in on these?
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Mar 2012, 09:58 pm
Toe in depends on the room as much as anything. It also depends on listening distance.

A few degrees of rotation really won't change the on axis response with these. In fact even turning them 15 degrees off axis or so won't really alter the direct sound from you to the speakers. You are just altering the room response by moving around your side wall reflections that are more of the extreme off axis.

Just aim them out enough to give you the best sound stage size and then move them in towards each other until the center image is focused.

I am sure that you can get the best of everything with no compromises.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 14 Mar 2012, 10:21 pm
It almost sounds too easy.  Will I really get a better or just bigger soundstage pointing towards the outer walls. 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 14 Mar 2012, 10:22 pm
Nice graphs. How you likin' the 'mic? I should be able to order mine soon.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Mar 2012, 10:29 pm
It almost sounds too easy.  Will I really get a better or just bigger soundstage pointing towards the outer walls.

You may not have to point them towards the walls. Somewhere between pointed towards the listening position and pointing straight ahead into the room is usually ideal. And yes, it will allow the sound stage size to be bigger. Once you get them the right distance apart verse seating distance then the center image will be very focused regardless of slight changes to towing the speakers in or out.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Mar 2012, 10:34 pm
Sounds like I may need to have two speaker positions: one for 2 channel, and one for HT....

..... thinking of putting sliders on the bottom of the base so they'll slide easier  :icon_twisted:, but don't know if a little de-coupling from the floor is a good idea.  :scratch:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Mar 2012, 10:42 pm
Nice graphs. How you likin' the 'mic? I should be able to order mine soon.
Does more stuff than you can shake a stick at. Main thing is to get the calibration files loaded so the microphone is accurate. Lots of fun. Can also drive you mad looking at the minor differences as you move the speaker a millimeter or two.

Quite a learning experience. Has an SPL function as well. MUCH faster than the RatShack. Scary looking at some of the SPL's that I listen at  :green:. (very short peak SPL's run around 20 db higher than the average "C" "slow" readings - sometimes more :o)
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Rclark on 15 Mar 2012, 01:08 am

 I'm pretty excited. I think once I get one I can finally move into the "intermediate" level of the hobby.

  :thumb: post more, I wanna see.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 15 Mar 2012, 07:13 pm
Danny,

Is there a secret to setting the distance between the speakers?  What do you listen for in your experience for set up?  What is the determining factor.  Center Image?  I did the Cardas measurements for the speaker placement.  However not on the front to back and listener placement. 

Currently the center image does sound very tight but I'm lacking some left and right staging.  The speakers are currently focused right at the sweet spot.  Not behind.  Not in front of. 

In the same room a speaker with the Vifa tweeter, the 850 sig from 123, took advantage of being almost parallel in thier plain with the front wall for the best soundstage.  Toed in they lost alot of staging. 
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Mar 2012, 03:29 pm
Danny,

Is there a secret to setting the distance between the speakers?  What do you listen for in your experience for set up?  What is the determining factor.  Center Image?  I did the Cardas measurements for the speaker placement.  However not on the front to back and listener placement. 

Currently the center image does sound very tight but I'm lacking some left and right staging.  The speakers are currently focused right at the sweet spot.  Not behind.  Not in front of. 

In the same room a speaker with the Vifa tweeter, the 850 sig from 123, took advantage of being almost parallel in thier plain with the front wall for the best soundstage.  Toed in they lost alot of staging.

No real trick. You just have to be willing to make some adjustments.

I saw your room pics. You have a reflective surface (a big TV) right between your speakers. You also have them right up on an untreated wall with no room treatments, no tube traps or anything.

You have a lot of improvement ahead.

You could just throw a thick comforter over your TV screen when listening to music and that would be a big improvement.

Pull them out a little further into the room and do some rear wall treatments and that will really good a long way too.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 19 Mar 2012, 04:54 pm
Correct I threw a sleeping bag over the screen and it did wonders I ll treat the walls behind and first reflections The speakers are abOut 8 inches out than the pic   every time my wife travels they creep further into the room
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Mar 2012, 06:24 pm
Quote
The speakers are abOut 8 inches out than the pic   every time my wife travels they creep further into the room

 :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 23 Mar 2012, 06:15 pm
That was a good tweek.  I have always pointed the speakers right at me.  Opening them towards the walls a little until the center stage decayed then walking them back improved the soundstage.  I found a place that I liked.  The tweak pushed the soundstage out  to the left and right quite a bit.  Thanks Danny
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Cheeseboy on 27 Mar 2012, 06:25 pm
I did some exploring in the crossover area on the LS6.  Holy Cow they were not switched to full range!  I should have tuned this up first thing.  I had no idea there were set to medium bass. 

More Bass is much better.  At 3 ft into the room they now have a new set of opportunities starting at loud listening levels with the back wall reflection cancelling some of the bass around 45 hz..  However the system sounds really good at reasonable listening levels.  I am so stoked.  They are like a whole new speaker.

I've been able to back off the volume as the bass is more present.  Time to rethink how to tame the room.  I might start with the backwall.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Jul 2012, 06:02 pm
Decided to revisit this thread after further tweeks: Unplugged the bass management completely. MINOR repositioning of left speaker as toe-in was about 1/16" off. MORE bass treatment in front corners, swapped speaker cable back to my old Kimber 8TC (black & blue version)

1/48th octave sweep:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65235)

1/3rd octave:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65236)

The dip at 55 hz is much better and disappears when using 1/3rd octave sweep.

Overall, the soundstage is a bit better with regard to both focus and depth, but I think my vocals are a bit worse  :( - a bit too "chesty" so to speak.

.......the search goes on.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jul 2012, 06:11 pm
You might try the bass management set in the first setting (least amount of change) and see if it takes away some of the chest-i-ness in the bass.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Jul 2012, 06:58 pm
You might try the bass management set in the first setting (least amount of change) and see if it takes away some of the chest-i-ness in the bass.
That's where it was before. Definitely didn't notice the issue with the vocals when it was at that setting, but I had a MAJOR dip in the 55-60 hz region. It's a trade off that I'm trying to overcome with more room treatment, but haven't settled on yet. Treatments are helping, but not resolving the issue. I LOVE hard hitting drums and bass line, and having that dip (at least 6db and probably closer to 10-12db) was tough on me. I like the bass line better now, but..........

it's why I'm contemplating buying the Super V kit/flat pack :shh:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jul 2012, 07:14 pm
That's where it was before. Definitely didn't notice the issue with the vocals when it was at that setting, but I had a MAJOR dip in the 55-60 hz region. It's a trade off that I'm trying to overcome with more room treatment, but haven't settled on yet. Treatments are helping, but not resolving the issue. I LOVE hard hitting drums and bass line, and having that dip (at least 6db and probably closer to 10-12db) was tough on me. I like the bass line better now, but..........

it's why I'm contemplating buying the Super V kit/flat pack :shh:

That makes me think that you might have had it in the most extreme setting (for small rooms).

It can be adjusted further to be even less than the first setting or it can be adjusted to a slightly higher frequency range too.

I am thinking that the Super-V will fix all of that too though.  :thumb:
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Jul 2012, 09:00 pm
That makes me think that you might have had it in the most extreme setting (for small rooms).

It can be adjusted further to be even less than the first setting or it can be adjusted to a slightly higher frequency range too.

I am thinking that the Super-V will fix all of that too though.  :thumb:
.....boy, sure would have been nice if it were that simple....

BUT, I did go back and double check. I definitely had it in the "Large" room setting last before I disconnected it (unless the circuit board is mislabled somehow - I had it in the furthest right position with the printing rightside up).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Super V's would solve some of my issues with bass due to the OB design and not pressurizing the room the same way.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Tyson on 16 Jul 2012, 09:22 pm
To address bass issues, you have 2 options, IMO.  Go with one or 2 Open Baffle subs, or use 3 (or more) sealed subs around the room. 

Either one will address room bass modes be very well.

Of course, the Super V is not a bad alternative either :P
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Jul 2012, 09:35 pm
.....boy, sure would have been nice if it were that simple....

BUT, I did go back and double check. I definitely had it in the "Large" room setting last before I disconnected it (unless the circuit board is mislabled somehow - I had it in the furthest right position with the printing rightside up).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Super V's would solve some of my issues with bass due to the OB design and not pressurizing the room the same way.

I am looking at an LS-9 resistor pack (almost the same).

Disconnected is the lightest setting. It is still in the circuit if there is a jumper at the J1 position. Then when you plug in the pig tail the next position is the one closest to the binding posts. As you move to pigtails further and further back (away from the binding posts) then it takes away more and more bass.
Title: Re: OK Guru's - I'm lost
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Jul 2012, 10:00 pm
To address bass issues, you have 2 options, IMO.  Go with one or 2 Open Baffle subs, or use 3 (or more) sealed subs around the room. 

Either one will address room bass modes be very well.

Of course, the Super V is not a bad alternative either :P
I've got subs (JL f113, MFW-15, and Velodyne f 1500 II) hooked up for HT duties, but I use a ModWright LS100 for 2 channel (via HT bypass). I can't figure out a simple way to hook everything up for use in both HT and 2 channel.

The MW just sounds better for music than my Lexicon does (in any mode).

.... the Super V solution makes the whole subwoofer/bass question a moot point.