Exactly how good were the RM 50's??

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PMAT

Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« on: 12 Apr 2014, 05:31 pm »
Share your experiences. There are a few tidbits regarding the "live vs recorded" but not much about in home sound. Please post pictures as well. Hopefully Jim will chime in about the build and components.

Housteau

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #1 on: 14 Apr 2014, 11:28 pm »
My only experience with them was in Vegas for the Live vs Recorded demos that I had assisted Brian with.  I am not sure how many pairs were made and sold.  I believe that the pair from the 2012 show were sold to someone attending that show.  I was impressed with them and had told Brian that if I didn't already have what I did that I would strongly consider them.  His response was that I already had something special and said that the 50s were in part similar to scaled down VLAs.

Of course they were more than that, such as their bipolar rear drivers.  There was even the option to use a separate amp on the rear drivers.   

Avoosl

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #2 on: 18 Apr 2014, 03:13 am »
   I've been listening to the RM50s from the 2011 CES for two years now. 

Background.  Before they came I had been quite content, and was most often delighted with the SuperTower IIIs dating from about 1990, with updated drivers along the way.  What got me motivated to go astray and lust after the new was my experience of hearing exquisitely good things from speakers with ribbon midranges - from Brian's later STIIISRE ribbon edition, among many others.  I knew I had to go to some form of them to get a jump in satisfaction- the ribbon midranges just seemed so awfully real.  You should know I had RM40s in my listening room, for mostly testing purposes,  for about a year.  Though they had their good points I wasn't altogether moved.   On the other hand, the reactions to the RM50 live-vs-recorded sessions at the show got me thinking more than a little.  Still, I had heard the new statement STIIISREs and thought they were IT, for sure, if anything ever could be.  Imagine my confusion and dismay when, after I sold the family pets and children, girded up my wallet and all but offered to go for the latest (and last) ribbon version of the ST3s, Brian hemmed and hawed, and hawed and hemmed, all but telling me that newer and better things are around - like the RM50.  No, he wasn't so clear and forthright as that.  Still.  Hmm … 

    Together with Brian's cryptic hints, I synthesized my impressions of the listeners' impressions as a buy signal for the RM50s.  But, wait, wait, wait! - after all, I reminded myself, they're nothing but souped-up RM40s, speakers which hadn't triggered much in me at all.   Hmm … now I went into mental ferment and upped my drinking a bit.   Rational or not, I charged ahead and plunked down for them, pretending to a casually raffish air on the phone with Casler.  He'll remember.

    And then, the set-up of these retire-and-go-to-Heaven speakers.  With fingers and toes a-tremble and ears a-twitching I set them up with 4 JC-1 amps and a JC-2 pre.  And, and, the answer is ... They sounded bad.  Not as in good b-a-a-d-ass, but just as in very, very bad.  Ai-eee!  I thought,  "so much for intuition and semi-rational inference."   What happened?  Short story: a number of the drivers were damaged somewhere in-transit (I live on the east coast), which Brian happily corrected.

    Fast forward to new drivers and a re-start.  Though not yet placed with more than a guess from the old STIIIs, they sounded good, as in really, really good, with lots of promise.  After the old room shuffle here, shuffle there, and tweaking the external crossover a bit, I found what I've been looking for and haven't changed a thing. 

    Sadly, I don't have the wherewithal to describe their sound a-la Sterophile reviewers.  Happily, you won't have to read such bilge, either.  Suffice to say, they are accurate in the sense which brings me and many other auditors to say - "why, that's what it's supPOSED to sound like" - pretty much whatever IT is.  Voices immediately are heard as  true-to-life in the sense that the rendition seems to be the summation of the best part of all the test listens you've heard before on a given voice.  I've never been cheek by jowl with Julie London, but this is my listener-only way of approaching and describing accuracy.  The bass, while authoritative, doesn't intrude at all - no surprise there - the crossover has 48 dB/oct settings here, so they certainly can't intrude much, and they stop just when they're supposed to.  The midrange is all I dreamed of and, with the mostly baroque and classical string music I favor, they are about the end of the line of what I could hope for.  They handle large-scale orchestra very well.  I've been told by some that they "rock on" pretty well.  I'll take their word for it.  They image both absolutely and outside the speakers for appropriate material.

    That's as close as I'm ever going to get to a rave.  They are, by turns, exquisite, forceful, delicate, layered, authoritative.  For me these speakers are the best yet - yes, even better than the emotionally draining experience of hearing the STIIISREs, and I am having the listening experience of my life.  It's a good thing I retired recently or I would have been a truant and very bad boy.

    Some questions.  I know somebody grabbed the 2012 edition with the 15" side-mounted passive radiator, with consequently more bass oomph.  I'd love to hear from you, whoever you are.  I don't know how we can compare notes accurately, but we can at least form a small club - a nano-pico club of RM50 owners.  Another question:  it really IS just a souped-up RM40, but it sounds better than that would lead you to think.  Another:  the parts are good, but mundane.  The job the out-of-production ribbons do can't be done well by the BG ribbons nor by any others that I know of - this seems surprising.  The ribbon tweeters and the woofers are both off-the-shelf from Parts Express.  What I'm getting at is, the speaker is SO much more than the sum of its parts.  Maybe that was part the genius of Brian?

    Rather than say any more,  I welcome questions.  Meanwhile, here's a picture.





PMAT

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #3 on: 18 Apr 2014, 04:46 am »
Holy guacamole !!! 4 JC-1 monoblocks?? Awesome!!  :D  Thank you so much for posting. I love the Twilight Zone sign. It would be so great to hear your system. What a giant leap of faith you took to order those things. Please post more pictures of the whole enchilada. I found your post to be quite thoughtful. It's not easy to describe what you hear and feel. I love the goosebumps effect that music can give you. With a big dynamic system like yours you must get it a lot. Hopefully others will chime in with more RM 50 experiences.

PMAT

HAL

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Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #4 on: 18 Apr 2014, 07:04 pm »
Avoosl hosted a Mid-Atlantic Audio Circle meet at his place in 2013.  I think everyone had a fine time listening to the various music being played, as I know I did!

The RM40's with FST's at his place were mine that I got used.  After lots of futzing with passive XO's, they ended up with a Behringer DCX2496 that finally got them sounding very good before going to their new owner.

Getting to see and hear the transformation of his room from the VMPS STRIII's to the RM50's was a lot of fun!  :) 




Avoosl

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #5 on: 18 Apr 2014, 07:14 pm »
What HAL said - and more.  I would be remiss if I did not publicly thank HAL for the lion's share of rescuing the RM50s from a damaging and troubled cross-coast trip.  In fact, they would likely have had to return, amid sadness and dismay.  He also provided much inspiration and guidance for the rest of the equipment and ideas for the extensive room treatments.  The outre decor and general appearance, however, can be blamed on no one but me.  What can I say?  It was the beer talking and acting.

Bob Gallo

HAL

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Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #6 on: 18 Apr 2014, 07:24 pm »
Thanks Bob, and it was very good beer!  :)

PMAT

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #7 on: 18 Apr 2014, 09:29 pm »
Hey Hal, how about some detailed impressions about the RM-50's. I am under the impression the 40s' can sound very good but I have never heard them either.

WireNut

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #8 on: 18 Apr 2014, 09:33 pm »
 



Holy shit DoGG, Thats a setup  :o  :thumb:

PMAT

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #9 on: 18 Apr 2014, 09:36 pm »
I would love to hear some well recorded rock on that system. The drums must really snap.

WireNut

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #10 on: 18 Apr 2014, 09:40 pm »
I would love to hear some well recorded rock on that system. The drums must really snap.

+1 on that  :rock:


HAL

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Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #11 on: 18 Apr 2014, 09:49 pm »
At the MAAC meeting at Bob's we put on jarchers heavy metal CD's and some Black Sabbath.  It kicked big time! 

Bob's favorite demo piece for that genre is ZZ Top's Greatest Hits.  Does a fine job with body feel! 

Not much of a reviewer, but it is a great sounding setup with Classical Music as well that we all listen to.   Lots of dynamic contrast which I like. 

More fun when Bob turns on the pair VMPS Larger Subs run with a Parasound HCA-3500 amp and plays pipe organ with symphony.  No that is a treat!  :)

PMAT

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #12 on: 19 Apr 2014, 03:14 am »
Jesus, two Tallboy Larger subs with their own serious amplification. Better than a defibrillator. . Jumpstart my heart. It is party time  :D  Bassfest 2014 is at your house this year! I can think of a lot of tracks I would love to play through that system. Pink Floyd's "the wall" helicopter track. Yea baby!

John Casler

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #13 on: 19 Apr 2014, 09:05 pm »
Yes, the MAGIC and Mystery of the Sonic Sorcerer from El Sobrante.

Cantankerous on occasion and Incredible beyond belief on others, once you get them "RIGHT" nothing on God's green Earth compares.

While there are several difference between the RM40 and RM50, the biggest is the fact that it is a Bipole (which in some models can be made to be a Dipole by reversing the leads (phase) on the rear bank of drivers)

PMAT

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #14 on: 20 Apr 2014, 02:54 am »
What was the difference in the bass section/drivers?

/mp

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Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #15 on: 20 Apr 2014, 05:52 pm »
RM50 cost a bit more than double a pair of RM40. I often wondered how 2 identical pairs of RM40 set back to back configured as bipole (or dipole) would sound in comparison to 1 pair of RM50.

Happy Easter
« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2014, 07:59 pm by /mp »

John Casler

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #16 on: 20 Apr 2014, 08:50 pm »
What was the difference in the bass section/drivers?

RM-40 = 2 10" active woofers (one low bass and one midbass) with a 10" Passive Radiator

RM50 = 2 12" active woofers with a 15" Passive Radiator

rbbert

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #17 on: 21 Apr 2014, 12:50 pm »
I think a system like Housteau's (V60's with stereo subs) can sound better than a pair of RM-50's although set up may be more critical/difficult.

Housteau

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #18 on: 21 Apr 2014, 01:48 pm »
I think a system like Housteau's (V60's with stereo subs) can sound better than a pair of RM-50's although set up may be more critical/difficult.

Like any other system it really is all about the details of the set up.  I have always been very happy with my sound, but at the same time have wondered if I had them tuned and working to their best possible.  This second time around with my new room and armed with better knowledge I have the best opportunity yet to get things as right as possible.

I had alway wanted Brian to come visit and work his magic, but we are all on our own these days.  I feel very fortunate to have had the chance to work with him at the last few shows in Vegas for the Live vs Recorded events for both the V60s and RM50s.  He would have me at the DCX crossover as he sat and listened giving me instructions for changes, often in just tenths of a db.  Add to this the pinching of some putty here and there and the results were truly amazing.

He had told me something very interesting in that when integrating sub bass systems to the main speakers, those bass systems should actually be placed forward of the mains and not even with, or behind them.  He also said that nobody does this though because it doesn't look right since most people are used to seeing how the big Infinity IRS systems had been set up.

I understand now that that all has to do with timing and that sub bass systems have a delay factor that needs to be factored in to get that integration right.  I recently came across this article that explains the overlooked issues, problems and solutions to achieving good subwoofer set ups.

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/entries/22530915-Adding-a-Subwoofer

You cannot fix the natural time delays inherent with sub bass systems, but you can delay the mains to be in time win them if you are using certain digital type crossovers.  The DCX has this capability.  This timing thing is separate from phase.  That is another area that needs to be dialed in separately.

Housteau

Re: Exactly how good were the RM 50's??
« Reply #19 on: 22 Apr 2014, 02:24 am »
I think that one of the reasons I liked the RM50s so much at the shows was that it reminded me very much of what I had at home, yet it was a simpler single piece speaker.  The beauty in being a single enclosure speaker is that Brian had internally already worked out those integration issues mentioned in my previous post.