[Pundamilia]

 
I'm with Folsom and JLM in lauding jarcher's post. A long piece, but worth the time it takes to read (and write?) it. In particular, I appreciated his clarifications on the dealer-customer relationship. As to the future, who knows? The direction seems to be towards convenience over quality, but hopefully there will always be a hard-core of Hi-Fi fanatics to keep driving quality and progress.

[DaveC113]

Great post archer!

I visited a friend this week who I had led to buying a nice entry level system 20+ years ago.  Unfortunately his house almost qualifies for an episode of "Hoarders" thanks mostly to his brother that lives with him (both are bachelors), so he's never had the speakers properly set up. 

Fast forward 10 years - I asked if he was still enjoying his system.  No, he doesn't listen to it at all.  I asked him to turn it on (a major inconvenience with all the junk in the way).  It sounded horrible and a quick check revealed that the foam surrounds had totally rotted away.  I offered to take him shopping for new speakers and of course gave him suggestions for replacement speakers, but he never replied.

Fast forward another couple of years - the nice system had been replaced by a cheap all-in-one-box set of 5 little plastic speakers from Best Buy to use with his TV.   

So on this visit he showed me his new $1200 curved panel TV that he's set up in his bedroom - ridiculously big for the room, barely fits between his walk-in closet and bathroom doors and his new 5.1 system (again all in one box, from Yamaha).  I was so disgusted I wouldn't let him turn it on.  Damn speaker wires are 22 gauge.  What upset me is that he at least could have called me and we could have rescued his NAD receiver from the first system and added some almost decent (non-plastic) speakers.  Heck I have speakers I would have given him if he didn't want to spend more money.

So here's a case of having tasted the audio waters, he's turned away twice now to buy two sets of one-box systems with plastic speakers.  The old adage of leading the horse to water comes painfully to mind.

Just like MJK's post... entry level systems aren't high end audio and no system is gonna be good without decent set-up. You can't just give a person some low-end (relatively) speakers and say they had a taste of high end audio.

[JLM]

Just like MJK's post... entry level systems aren't high end audio and no system is gonna be good without decent set-up. You can't just give a person some low-end (relatively) speakers and say they had a taste of high end audio.

Bob, I did regret my behavior but the point was that I was a phone call away and he dissed my advice.

Dave, I purposely didn't specify the speakers because I felt enough like an elitist with my post without trying to define what qualifies as high-end.  The speakers are from a brand I had much respect for and in fact I owned the next generation of the same speaker.  It was a speaker that I enjoyed more than nearly all the speakers I've ever heard.  I honestly doubt if he'd owned $20,000 speakers it would have made any difference.  But I do agree regarding setup, but we've all seen even worse setups than his. 

Again, exposure to the "good stuff" isn't enough to guarantee everyone will be a life-time devotee.

[mcgsxr]

Perhaps it is because I am better educated about what is out there these days, but I feel that the high end is nothing I will ever own.

I won't sell a car or house to afford it.  I guess I am the bad "low or no buyer" after all!

I get much musical satisfaction these days, with less than 5K invested (in gear, my music collection represents way more $ spent).  I actually self identify my gear as mid fi, since I know what hi fi really is.  Yet every "normal" person I know who comes over thinks I am the hi fi wing nut!

[Letitroll98]

Audiophilia is a nitch market anyway, so reflecting on the shrinking middle class it doesn't take much of a move to dry up the market for mid priced high end gear leading to the closing of many shops.  Those that survive make it on installs and upper high end.  The paradigm shift to online retailers for low and mid priced is quite natural, you need to sell more units to make a profit.  As a happy consequence this leads to a much wider selection of gear in the low to mid priced segment, you just can't go to a store and listen to it.

No matter how lowly your system, we are all listening to hifi.  Cheap & Cheerful is full of inexpensive systems that are way above what you can get at a big box store.  To quote the late Carl Sagan, "...how tiny and, insignificant and how... rare and precious we all are".  The simple, or not so simple, act of putting together a musically satisfying system is your entry into the high end.  We are all audiophiles listening to hifi.  Hifi isn't dead or dying, it's just changing.

[JLM]

Perhaps it is because I am better educated about what is out there these days, but I feel that the high end is nothing I will ever own.

I won't sell a car or house to afford it.  I guess I am the bad "low or no buyer" after all!

I get much musical satisfaction these days, with less than 5K invested (in gear, my music collection represents way more $ spent).  I actually self identify my gear as mid fi, since I know what hi fi really is.  Yet every "normal" person I know who comes over thinks I am the hi fi wing nut!

Agreed with your sense of financial responsibilities. 

I attended Axpona the last couple of years, and it may be sour grapes but I much prefer my $7000 MSRP system to almost all the systems there.  As a big believer of good design (that doesn't have to cost much) versus huge monies spent on aesthetics I don't associate dollar amounts with sonic quality of audio gear. 

It's never been a better time to get "good-fi" at a good price.  Good gear is available at very reasonable prices.  Innovative products, like DAC/preamps/headphone amps, work really well in digital only systems or small/personal space environments.  And active speakers are showing up to save space/money.  Now with services like Tidal you don't have to buy a music library.  So you can have a "real" small scale high-end system for $3000 including music. 

And yes, we are not normal.   

[undertow]

Axpona, and shows like that rarely pan out for really small companies, and / or the better built equipment as they may get exposure, but sales are nearly impossible. In a way all these additional audio shows may be hurting more than helping this industry as a whole with the downside being exposed to systems and performance problems.

I have come to this conclusion after figuring out that these shows do 2 things ...

1- Allow a lot of tire kickers to come and see something they otherwise would not go out of their way for, just like the Yacht and RV show. 99% of them will never own anyway.

2- Make a ridiculous amount of money for the Hotel, and trade show organizers for the actual service they provide.

These companies in High end have to shell out about $3000 to $4000 for a hotel room over 3 days which is 4 or 5 times the normal rate these rooms retail at.

And these rooms are barely fit to play an underground poker game let alone play these systems to truly sound GOOD. Most of the time they are way too small and people are simply baffled, and confused just walking over each other from room to room.

More and more shows pop up every year though, much like the online Review sites have figured out to pass the word, and get paid for advertising.

People paying out $10,000 for anything they expect the full power of a company behind it, with 5 year warranties, and customer service. Unfortunately these guys trying to sell over inflated gear with no promise they will exist in 6 years, let alone 6 months worries people.

Too many kitchen table companies have diluted high end which is probably another good point in why there is just more difficulty.

In the end its like walking into BMW and saying $32,000 is a great deal, but they can always drive that car back to the dealer for service, and a lot of included forward moving satisfaction. This is not the case selling somebody a $32,000 system that only has 2 speakers, and a digital music player!

[Bob2]

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[jarcher]

Bob, I did regret my behavior but the point was that I was a phone call away and he dissed my advice.

Dave, I purposely didn't specify the speakers because I felt enough like an elitist with my post without trying to define what qualifies as high-end.  The speakers are from a brand I had much respect for and in fact I owned the next generation of the same speaker.  It was a speaker that I enjoyed more than nearly all the speakers I've ever heard.  I honestly doubt if he'd owned $20,000 speakers it would have made any difference.  But I do agree regarding setup, but we've all seen even worse setups than his. 

Again, exposure to the "good stuff" isn't enough to guarantee everyone will be a life-time devotee.

I find it amusing how many times I've gone into somebody's home who has bought a home theater in a box and find all the speakers nestled together, usually on top of the TV cabinet or hutch. As if all those speakers bunched together could somehow magically throw sound to all directions in the room! Maybe Bose omnidirectional speaker marketing is to blame. You'd think people would have more common sense. But these days I am literally getting people asking me how to connect a turntable to a pair of speakers. Or why everything can't be wireless (hello - you still need a power cord, unless it's all battery powered). The level of technical literacy when it comes audio  seems to be at an all time low. And the little people think they know comes from the little marketing they see which suggests that miracles can ensue from a sound bar with lots of speakers or wireless everything!

JLM - I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about this. From what your saying it seems like this is a guy who just likes to buy new stuff as much or more than optimizing and enjoying what they already have. In a way I have to thank him because if everyone always bought exactly what they wanted and were never disastisfied enough to want to buy something better - or just different - and were buying only to replace things that break beyond repair  - a lot of us would be out of a job - and I don't just mean on the sales side!

 I think that's also part of the reason why a classic high end audio sales tactic is to dismiss whatever the person owns. The idea is to generate disatisfaction, shame or fear to make the sale.  It can be a very effective sales tactic with the right person, but not a tactic I resort to or want to resort to.  I think you can tempt people to consider buying things that are genuinely better or even just different without making them feel bad about whatever they have now or owned before.

In the case of your guy I would suggest helping him to unload his no longer desired good stuff to someone deserving and more interested. This will also give him more cash to buy something new, which should make him happy. And in the process of buying something new you can guide him to buying something worthwhile. That way everybody wins!

[jarcher]

Perhaps it is because I am better educated about what is out there these days, but I feel that the high end is nothing I will ever own.

I won't sell a car or house to afford it.  I guess I am the bad "low or no buyer" after all!

I get much musical satisfaction these days, with less than 5K invested (in gear, my music collection represents way more $ spent).  I actually self identify my gear as mid fi, since I know what hi fi really is.  Yet every "normal" person I know who comes over thinks I am the hi fi wing nut!

The only "bad" low or no-buyers are douchebags who don't respect other people and their time and advice. And of course there are "douchey" hifi stores / sales guys as well.

But in general audio sales guys are like anybody else - they like talking to people and about stuff they like - ie audio. It's not all about the dollar bills. As usual the "golden rule" applies : treat people the way you would want to be treated!

[jarcher]

Axpona, and shows like that rarely pan out for really small companies, and / or the better built equipment as they may get exposure, but sales are nearly impossible. In a way all these additional audio shows may be hurting more than helping this industry as a whole with the downside being exposed to systems and performance problems.

I have come to this conclusion after figuring out that these shows do 2 things ...

1- Allow a lot of tire kickers to come and see something they otherwise would not go out of their way for, just like the Yacht and RV show. 99% of them will never own anyway.

2- Make a ridiculous amount of money for the Hotel, and trade show organizers for the actual service they provide.

These companies in High end have to shell out about $3000 to $4000 for a hotel room over 3 days which is 4 or 5 times the normal rate these rooms retail at.

And these rooms are barely fit to play an underground poker game let alone play these systems to truly sound GOOD. Most of the time they are way too small and people are simply baffled, and confused just walking over each other from room to room.

More and more shows pop up every year though, much like the online Review sites have figured out to pass the word, and get paid for advertising.

People paying out $10,000 for anything they expect the full power of a company behind it, with 5 year warranties, and customer service. Unfortunately these guys trying to sell over inflated gear with no promise they will exist in 6 years, let alone 6 months worries people.

Too many kitchen table companies have diluted high end which is probably another good point in why there is just more difficulty.

In the end its like walking into BMW and saying $32,000 is a great deal, but they can always drive that car back to the dealer for service, and a lot of included forward moving satisfaction. This is not the case selling somebody a $32,000 system that only has 2 speakers, and a digital music player!

Its true that shows often are not going to pan out for small manufacturers or dealers alike. It amazing nonetheless how many new people and companies - both on the manufacturing and sales side - still decide to jump in despite the odds!

Remember though that Hewelt Packard, Apple and countless other companies literally started on kitchen tables - or at best, garage workbenches!

And on another front : while the reliability and longevity of many of these companies might be tenuous, when it comes to a boutique industry such as this, part of the joy is getting more of a one to one relationship with the person(s) that built what you own - and usually these people are much more interested in seeing that you are happy - even if there's higher probability of issues initially -  than some megalith company cranking things out by the thousands!

[Bob2]

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