AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: wisnon on 5 Oct 2012, 02:23 pm
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http://www.avforums.com/reviews/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-8033-Dual-Core-review_361/Review.html
Gushing...
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Norman does your boss know you're not working and posting on this forum? :lol:
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Heck, let him post all he wants!
Jim
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Norman does your boss know you're not working and posting on this forum? :lol:
You do now, boss. LoL
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I just ran a correction today and it cleaned up the bass significantly, even with just the TYPICAL setting. I suspect it will be better in advanced mode where I can limit the frequency in the upper range to 250hz instead of 500.
I had 3 spikes which it flattened out.
VERY Highly recommended!
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Hey Norman,
I'm glad you posted the review. I was, but you beat me to it. 8)
For any one else, The review is spot on!. :thumb:
I have been mucking around with my Dual core since early August and have a pretty good idea of what it can do.
My speaker system is a 2.2 set up. I run the D/C in Advanced mode "Normal" and "Off" settings with corrections at 200hz and 225hz.
Yes you can hear the difference, and can also fine tune the frequencies at 1 point increments.
Pretty Cool! :D
I never knew how good my system could sound before the D/C.
I'll comment a little more later...being called to a much more important duty...I'll be right there dear...:oops:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68926)
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The guys from Dspeaker are very responsive.
Q&A from Dspeaker:
What are the current max sample rates accepted into the USB and Toslink digital input channels? I was under the impression that Toslink was 24/96 and that USB was 24/48 and that possibly in a future firmware update, USB can go up to 24/192.
Currently the Toslink can go 24/96 (latest firmware) and USB 48/24.
Am I correct here? I hope so because I have at least 20 hi-rez albums of 176khz and higher that I wont be able to play otherwise from my laptop.
You should be able to play them, as USB should be able to send the data in 48/24. Also the ADC of the AM2DC is 192kHz, so you could also use analog input if nothing else works.
Please let me know the current status and future upgrade plans in the works.
Yes we will. We'll announce any new firmware features on our website, so stay tuned.
Any plans to allow Toslink and USB input to accept 24/192? I have a lot of hires albums and can make more from my SACDs.
It is difficult to say yet about 24/192 as we are still planning the 24/96. However, the analog input already is 192kHz and USB should be able to feed the data in 24/48 format. With 6.144MHz reclocking, 24/48 is essentially as good as 24/192 as there is no jitter (which is more relevant than the ultrasonics).
Here is the reply to the question about the applicable frequency range for a TYPICAL correction:
The high limit for 'typical' is 150Hz. You see the limit as a dotted line in the measurement menu -> view before/after.
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Here is some discussion on measurements from the Dual Core over on the Hifi Wigwam site in the UK....
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?72279-DSPeaker-AntiMode-2-0-Dual-Core
Enjoy
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Heh. I was just reading the manual. http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/datasheets/dspeaker/AntiMode20DualCoreEng.pdfTrying to wrap my head around this thing as much as I can before I get the chance to order. It's crazy how much function this thing has. That's the future.
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Yeah, I was on the phone with Tim at Simplifi about this thing. Wow. Balance controls? Check. Multiple outputs? Check. Multiple settings that can be saved? Check. Damn...
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Here is some discussion on measurements from the Dual Core over on the Hifi Wigwam site in the UK....
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?72279-DSPeaker-AntiMode-2-0-Dual-Core
Enjoy
And for those who didn't click the link, this includes a discussion of using the analog inputs from a vinyl rig! That's been the big question mark for me WRT this unit.
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Yeah, I was on the phone with Tim at Simplifi about this thing. Wow. Balance controls? Check. Multiple outputs? Check. Multiple settings that can be saved? Check. Damn...
Check out the forum here to:
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-8033-Dual-Core-review_361/Review_Comments.html
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Please, no links to other forums.
Jim
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Really? What is the rationale for that. Especially for a new product like this, I found those links particularly helpful.
Just like members of different forums I am sure would appreciate links to AC threads like ncore impressions thread. Not to mention threads in some of our manufacturers circles
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Please, no links to other forums.
Jim
Seriously? :scratch:
Does posting associated links violate some kind of AC policy?
There is a buzz about this product around the web.
There are many different ways to implement the Dual Core and it's use can be system specific.
I'm currently using the SPDIF input from my transport and output to my main amp and subs.
Others are using it in a different way, which I find helpful for future system changes.
Tim at Simplifi called me today to see how I was doing with the Dual Core, and told me how difficult it is to fill the current orders. With supply being low and only a few dozen in the States I would think that finding out more information would be a good thing!
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Agreed rodge827,
And keep your impressions coming!
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Will do! :D
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BTW,
Tim mentioned that there will be some youtube tutorials posted in the near future.
Things like step by step videos on how to do the various types of calibrations, utilizing the parameters, utilizing the EQ function, taking and posting measurements, etc...
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Seriously? :scratch:
Does posting associated links violate some kind of AC policy?
There is a buzz about this product around the web.
There are many different ways to implement the Dual Core and it's use can be system specific.
I'm currently using the SPDIF input from my transport and output to my main amp and subs.
Others are using it in a different way, which I find helpful for future system changes.
Tim at Simplifi called me today to see how I was doing with the Dual Core, and told me how difficult it is to fill the current orders. With supply being low and only a few dozen in the States I would think that finding out more information would be a good thing!
I have no problem with it being discussed here and in fact, welcome the discussion. However, it is bad protocol to direct the AC Membership to leave this forum and go to another. Not being a hard arse, just asking for respect of the AC.
Thanks for your understanding,
Jim
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We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
It is not as if we won't a) share important details we find on other forums on this one and b) give our own impressions and thoughts here.
And it comes down to more info being better than less info.
Much more frequently do I refer people on other forums to AC than refer ACers to non-AC threads.
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I have no problem with it being discussed here and in fact, welcome the discussion. However, it is bad protocol to direct the AC Membership to leave this forum and go to another. Not being a hard arse, just asking for respect of the AC.
Thanks for your understanding,
Jim
Jim,
Your making a lot about nothing here! :roll:
I for one belong to many different audio forums, and send links to AC if I feel that it will be helpful.
AC is my "home" forum and I don't feel that I'm disrespecting this forums' sanctity.
In fact I've brought a few new members over from other forums. 8)
Do you have anything constructive to offer about the Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0?
I will be posting more about it tomorrow. :D
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I've posted relevant forum links in other circles and never has a moderator had a problem with it. Obviously I wouldn't post a link to a competing product in a sponsor's circle, manufacturer's circle or in a Trading Post ad.
There is nothing in the Posting Guidelines about this, only "Please, don't copy large amounts of text from other websites. Just post a link! ".
Whether you realize it or not, the majority of AudioCircle members post on other forum sites. Not allowing the links only makes them spend needless time searching other forums for the information being discussed and takes away from the time they have to come back and post meaningful and contributing content here.
Steve
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Rodge had also mentioned the preamp section improves greatly on battery power, making it a dream machine indeed.
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Rodge:
I welcome your posts and insights, I also like Rclark's approach where he noted he is dissecting the user manual to gain knowledge of what it will do. With that, maybe a link to said manual us in order.
Jim
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Oh the link is right there in that post, but here:
http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/datasheets/dspeaker/AntiMode20DualCoreEng.pdf
quite the eye opener.
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Rodge had also mentioned the preamp section improves greatly on battery power, making it a dream machine indeed.
Yes this is true!
The sound was fuller and less "hard" with the battery power supply.
I did a demo for Tim Kroll of Shelby + Kroll Speakers. The gentleman I was doing the demo for was only interested in the monitors. So with the subs off and the Dual Core on "bypass" mode we listened to his first track. I realized half way through that I forgot to put the Dual Core on the BPS. After the song was over we played it again with the BPS in use, and he immediately turned to me and said "now that has more of a SET quality to it!" After he was satisfied with the monitor only demo we turned on the subs and listened to them uncalibrated. He was being nice by saying that the bass was rich and full. I took the Dual Core off "bypass" and he nearly fell out of the chair. He couldn't believe the bass notes that were in his demo tracks. He said it was like listening to his music all over again.
I'm using the Dual Core as a Preamp, Dac, and room correction device. My transport, 47 Labs Flatfish, is hooked up via the Toslink SPDIF input. By using the Battery PS the noise floor of the whole unit is lowered significantly. The Dac chip (dunno what it is so please don't ask) is a very,very good musical and detailed performer. You will get very good dynamics, micro and macro details, and proper decay of all instruments. Of course YMMV due to cables, amp, transport used, and speaker type.
Every system is different and some may use a line conditioner better than mine and not need to go to a different power supply.
The Battery PS I use can be seen in my Gallery pics.
There has also been talk to a positive improvement by using a higher quality PS such as Core Audio, Paul Hynes, etc...
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I stopped by the Legacy room at RMAF Saturday evening and got to see the setup procedure and demo the speakers with and without correction. I am impressed and plan on using one as a DAC with USB input and RCA out to my preamp. A lot has already been said so I'll just point out some things I learned....
- It's best to output the results of freq sweeps to your computer, you can compare before/after, add smoothing and have a much larger screen to work with. I'd say having a laptop beside it while doing setup or adjustments is a must.
- Bass is adjusted in mono up to 199 Hz. It might be worthwhile to try manual adjustments at 200+ Hz as well as auto correction from 200 to 500 Hz and see what's best. When we set up the unit at RMAF we just went up to 199 Hz because it takes a lot longer to run the stereo setup procedure, so even further improvements could be made than what I heard.
- The normal setting is normally preferred for how much correction the unit will add. This unit is a definitely not a substitute for proper setup and room treatment, although it is possible to use less room treatment than you might otherwise, and reduce the effects of a poor room. If you have a huge bass null it's not going to be able to level a 12 dB dip...
The unit can do a freq response test up to 20k Hz and you can use this feature to see what changes in room treatments and placements is making, get it as close as you can then use the correction. Add/remove room treatments then run correction and save the correction file so you can directly compare room treatments with correction already done for both scenarios. I think it can store 3 correction files, but don't quote me on that.... anyway, it is powerful tool beyond just the auto correction feature... you could spend A LOT of time messing with stuff and running freq response tests. You could use it to measure and improve a DIY speaker project...
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U can store up to FOUR profiles.
Guidof from the forum link I posted has been tinkering a lot. I will invite him here to share results.
I also got a couple replies from Dspeaker themselves and will eventually share them here.
Rodge...can you elaborate on which linear power supplies to use, ie links to where they can be purchased.
The TYPICAL calibration corrects up to 150hz. In adavanced mode U can go up to 500hz.
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Here are a few outboard power supply makers:
https://coreaudiotechnology.com/products/power-supplies
http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html
http://www.mojo-audio.com/power-supplies/
http://redwineaudio.com/components/black_lightning
There are some that I'm missing, feel free to add to the list.
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On the less expensive side, MF V-DAC users seem to like the Pyramid PSU
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On the less expensive side, MF V-DAC users seem to like the Pyramid PSU
Hi roscoeiii,
I did a search and went to here http://radioproshop.com/pyramid-ps/powersupply.htm.
There are a lot of Pyramid PSU's...could you narrow it down a little for us?
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Don't really know much more. Just recall seeing that they were around $20-30.
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I stopped by the Legacy room at RMAF Saturday evening and got to see the setup procedure and demo the speakers with and without correction. I am impressed and plan on using one as a DAC with USB input and RCA out to my preamp. A lot has already been said so I'll just point out some things I learned....
- It's best to output the results of freq sweeps to your computer, you can compare before/after, add smoothing and have a much larger screen to work with. I'd say having a laptop beside it while doing setup or adjustments is a must.
- Bass is adjusted in mono up to 199 Hz. It might be worthwhile to try manual adjustments at 200+ Hz as well as auto correction from 200 to 500 Hz and see what's best. When we set up the unit at RMAF we just went up to 199 Hz because it takes a lot longer to run the stereo setup procedure, so even further improvements could be made than what I heard.
- The normal setting is normally preferred for how much correction the unit will add. This unit is a definitely not a substitute for proper setup and room treatment, although it is possible to use less room treatment than you might otherwise, and reduce the effects of a poor room. If you have a huge bass null it's not going to be able to level a 12 dB dip...
The unit can do a freq response test up to 20k Hz and you can use this feature to see what changes in room treatments and placements is making, get it as close as you can then use the correction. Add/remove room treatments then run correction and save the correction file so you can directly compare room treatments with correction already done for both scenarios. I think it can store 3 correction files, but don't quote me on that.... anyway, it is powerful tool beyond just the auto correction feature... you could spend A LOT of time messing with stuff and running freq response tests. You could use it to measure and improve a DIY speaker project...
Hi Dave just to clarify a few things and add to your observations.
1) "- It's best to output the results of freq sweeps to your computer, you can compare before/after, add smoothing and have a much larger screen to work with. I'd say having a laptop beside it while doing setup or adjustments is a must. "
Yes it is good to have a computer screen to observe and save the results. From those results you can save the calibration to a Profile and adjust to your hearts delight with the 16 band EQ, House Curve (bass) and House Tilt (treble) features.
2)"- Bass is adjusted in mono up to 199 Hz. It might be worthwhile to try manual adjustments at 200+ Hz as well as auto correction from 200 to 500 Hz and see what's best. When we set up the unit at RMAF we just went up to 199 Hz because it takes a lot longer to run the stereo setup procedure, so even further improvements could be made than what I heard."
Yes this is correct also. When you run calibrations in the stereo mode and move up in frequency, they take about 10 mins.
3)"- The normal setting is normally preferred for how much correction the unit will add. This unit is a definitely not a substitute for proper setup and room treatment, although it is possible to use less room treatment than you might otherwise, and reduce the effects of a poor room. If you have a huge bass null it's not going to be able to level a 12 dB dip..."
OK a little clarification here. The Normal setting is used in the Typical set up and can be chosen in the Advanced set up menu. What the Normal mode does is to boost the bass frequency, to what Dspeaker has determined to be the kind of bass sound that we are now accustomed to. In the Advanced Mode there are three choices for compensation Off, Normal, and Max. With the Off setting there is no compensation applied to boost the bass dips. This is a good setting to customize how the user prefers his bass via the House Curve Tool or the 16 band Parametric EQ. The Normal setting adds partial compensation as explained above and you can still tailor the sound to your liking using the House Curve, House Tilt, and EQ. The Max setting gives you full compensation by adding a full +2db gain to the boosting filters. This is all explained in the Owners Manual in section 6. Advanced Calibration. The Dual Core also has an Infrasonic Filter that is used to limit the the true subsonic bass on recordings. The cut off levels are 20hz, 15hz, and 10hz. When the bass is boosted so is the subsonic bass, use of this filter is imperative to good driver health.
4) "The unit can do a freq response test up to 20k Hz and you can use this feature to see what changes in room treatments and placements is making, get it as close as you can then use the correction. Add/remove room treatments then run correction and save the correction file so you can directly compare room treatments with correction already done for both scenarios. I think it can store 3 correction files, but don't quote me on that.... anyway, it is powerful tool beyond just the auto correction feature... you could spend A LOT of time messing with stuff and running freq response tests. You could use it to measure and improve a DIY speaker project"
Yes you can do a full spectrum room measurement. How cool is that! I took all of my ugly oversized bass treatment out of the room. For you multiple sub users this is a great tool to use for that final stage of adjustment. Heck it costs about the same as a good sub. As mentioned by Wisnon there are 4 profiles , A B C D, on the remote you can play with to your hearts delight. Yes you can spend a lot of time mucking around with all of the different features or just use a Typical Calibration and be waaay better off than 10 mins earlier!
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Some responses from Finland:
I have 4 questions:
1) Will you do a future development to allow firmware updates on the MacOS?
It should not be a very big job, so Mac updater is on the to-do list. But it is not a priority.
2) When is a likely date to expect a firmware update for USB asynchronous 24/192 input? (I understand that you cant give a guaranteed date yet, I am just asking for a rough estimate)
3) Will Toslink input ever get to 24/192 or is it restricted to 24/96?
24bit/192kHz is not possible for USB with the hardware. We'll see if we can bring 24/96k at the same time with the other USB enhancements. We have practically ruled out 192k with the current hardware because of various hardware-related things. Our resources are better spent in other areas of development.
4) Is the DSPeaker DSD capable and if so, can this be a future firmware update, or would it need new hardware as well?
Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core is not capable of DSD, but DSD warrants study for the future.
Question:
> There is no setting for 2.1, ie 2 main speakers and a single stereo
> subwoofer on The Dual Core. Does the 2.0 setting work equally well for
> room correction for this configuration?
Yes, the 2.0 setting basically covers all 2-channel full-range systems, regardless of where the signal is being reproduced. For instance, any 2.1 or 2.2 system is generally a 2-channel full-range system. The subwoofers are just a frequency range specified drivers to handle the lowest frequencies, just like the tweeter and midwoofers are in any 2-way speaker. Which drivers reproduce which frequencies is quite indifferent for the AM2DC since it "sees" the total outcome when calibrating.
>Does it matter that I use analog (XLR or RCA)
> input and RCA output to my integrated amp which has a pre-out to the SW?
No, that is a good way to connect AM2DC.
Any plans to allow Toslink and USB input to accept 24/192? I have a lot
of hirez albums and can make more from my SACDs.
> It is difficult to say yet about 24/192 as we are still planning the
> 24/96. However, the analog input already is 192kHz capable and USB should be able
> to feed the data in 24/48 format. With 6.144MHz reclocking, 24/48 is
> essentially as good as 24/192 as there is no jitter (which is more
> relevant than the ultrasonics).
>
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Here are a few outboard power supply makers:
https://coreaudiotechnology.com/products/power-supplies
http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html
http://www.mojo-audio.com/power-supplies/
http://redwineaudio.com/components/black_lightning
There are some that I'm missing, feel free to add to the list.
Thanx! What amp rating for the Dspeaker?
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I wonder if anyone knows about the reclocking technology in this device, seems pretty nice.
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Having owned mine for a little over 2 months, I can testify to it's being a good product. Prior to this, I used 2 of their 8033 mono sub units on my subs, so I pretty much knew it would be good. The DAC is quite good, too. For many budget minded audiophiles this can be the core of an excellent system. My only caveat is amplifier matching - the 1.65 V output may not drive some amp/speaker combos to a really loud (think Iggy Pop's "Lust For Life") level. This is the case with my Bottlehead Paramount 300B amps, so I am just using it on the 2 subs. But even there it is an improvment over the 2 8033 units. While I cannot say the bass is better than with the 8033s, the Dual-Core has a bypass, a mute, volume - all done by remote, making it really simple to adjust and compare the unit to non-DSP sifgnal. It is night and day - bass instruments and drums are now there in the stage, not everywhere. I am really hoping they figure out a way to retrofit a higher output voltage, because I want to use it full range and play with the equalizer on my main speakers.
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The lower output is actually appealing in my case, since I have a bit too much gain in my system...
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Having owned mine for a little over 2 months, I can testify to it's being a good product. Prior to this, I used 2 of their 8033 mono sub units on my subs, so I pretty much knew it would be good. The DAC is quite good, too.......It is night and day - bass instruments and drums are now there in the stage, not everywhere.
Judging by your custom open baffle speakers, I'd say you've given pretty high praise here to the unit.
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Here are a few pics of my room measurements taken from the Dual Core screen:
Red line is before calibration, black line is after calibration up to 200hz.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69794)
Full spectrum room measurement with calibration set to 200hz.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69774)
Full spectrum room measurement.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69775)
Room measurement to 500hz. The most that the screen will show is up to 200hz. Hopefully there will be a firmware update to take it to 500hz.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69776)
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Full spectrum room measurement with calibration to 450hz on(red) and off(black).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69800)
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rodge, you could output those graphs to your computer, apply a bit of smoothing, then save the screen image as a .jpg and post it up...
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And that's two subs right or just one? What type?
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Don't know how to do that yet. :duh:
Will learn how for the future. :D
2 Subs...Shelby + Kroll...10" Bandpass design
I have been on the phone with Tim Ryan all afternoon doing measurements and making adjustments with the Dual Core.
Most of these pics have been put up so that y'all can see what the thing does.
What we're working on now is trying to get rid of or soften that sharp dip around the 40-60hz area.
Stay tuned...
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From what I understand that null is ubiquitous in small rooms and about impossible to get rid of without more subs.
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In the review of it though, it says the device greatly reduces the decay at that null so you really dont notice it anyway.
It will be interesting to find out if dual Legends acts like 4 subs.
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OK,
I moved the subs into the corners of the room and did a 500hz calibration in normal mode and this is what I got:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69805)
As you can see the dip has gotten a little smaller and a little less sharp.
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Turned up the volume a little more...
Room measurement to 500hz
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69816)
Calibrated to 500hz
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69817)
Note that the hole is getting smaller.
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That's very impressive Rodge. Wow! Get's me all hopped up seeing that stuff. :thumb: Just paid for my Ncores this week, that thing's next!
I am willing to bet... if you added another sub or two... nullbegone. Thought about it? You could have very very flat response provided you treat your HF reflection points.
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Rclark,
My first reflection points are treated, but I might do it on a larger scale. Currently the side wall treatments are 2'w x 3'h as well as the ceiling. I'm looking into making those a little bigger say 3'x3' for the side walls and 6'x6' for the ceiling. The dip is from the floor bounce and now is hardly audible. It's getting late here and I'll be working over the next 2 days, so I'll mess around a little more over the weekend. As DaveC113 mentioned there is room for a little smoothing. That will all come later.
There is a learning curve to using the Dual Core and Tim Ryan at Simplifi Audio has been a big help in showing me how some of the different features work. He really knows his stuff and has helped me to dial in the bass. If you notice from the last graph, the bass is pretty flat up to 120hz. Those dips repeat themselves every 60hz or so. Apparently this is normal? Dunno...trusting Tim on that one.
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In a rather lengthy Epic Legend thread (the sub I own), I saw a measurement graph from an owner who had a single, and that null was there, added another, null practically vanished, in that room. Now, the Legend has dual opposed drivers, so I'm hoping that two of them plus the Dual Core will get me where I want to go.
It is a gorgeous sub, keeps up with my framed maggies (no small feat), although with Ncores it will be different, I will be dropping the crossover down a lot..
In fact I want to use the Dual Core as a crossover, and see if I can, over time, totally maximize a pair of them for my room. This is going to be so much fun, and I suspect I will learn quite a lot.
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There is no question that a pair of subs soothes out room funkiness better than one. There are nice links in the stickied helpful link thread that covers this, as well as, a thread or two that discusses the merits of multiple subs.
Jim
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In a rather lengthy Epic Legend thread (the sub I own), I saw a measurement graph from an owner who had a single, and that null was there, added another, null practically vanished, in that room. Now, the Legend has dual opposed drivers, so I'm hoping that two of them plus the Dual Core will get me where I want to go.
In fact I want to use the Dual Core as a crossover, and see if I can, over time, totally maximize a pair of them for my room. This is going to be so much fun, and I suspect I will learn quite a lot.
When I purchased my speaker system Tim Kroll (Shelby + Kroll) suggested 2 subs to pressurize my 15w x 21l x 8.25h room properly.
The subs are a 10" bandpass design and are geared to the music lover, not so much for HT. I dialed them in as best I could with the less bass is best theory, not wanting to hear or feel the sub and not know that it is in the room. I placed the subs very close to and behind the speaker stands, almost touching them in the middle of the room, using the Cardas formula.
I first used the Dspeaker 8033s and the overall sound greatly improved. Bringing in the Dual Core helped things along even further. From the measurements Tim Ryan had me move the subs into the front corners of the room and turn up the volume considerably. I originally had the volume pots at 9:00 and they are now at 2:00. As you can see from the graphs the "hole" from 35hz-60hz has close up rather nicely and the bass does sound much better in the room. I'm not done yet, as mentioned above I will play around with the bass output a little more over the weekend. Tim said to me that my original measurement was rare since most people have the bass turned up way to high. In my case we were working from the other direction, mine was way to low.
Doing all of this tweeking and measuring does take some time. You need a near silent room to do the measurements,about 2 mins each. Then run a calibration about 12 mins at 500hz. Moving my subs to the corners was a timely project since there was some shelving that needed to be removed.
Damn, the things we'll do to gain that little bit of sonic harmony! :o Crazy whacked audiophile perfectionists! :D :lol: 8) Spending hours of time on a beautiful day to prepare for when the weather turn sour? :scratch: :duh:
Heck I coulda' ben workin' on my putting!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :green: :green: :green:
Rclark,
How are you thinking about implementing the Dual Core crossover?
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:green:
As of now my plan is to get Gik qrd diffusers behind my Maggie's, build some corner traps with quartered rockwool and fabric, get some Gik Gridfusiors for above my listening position (I think), buy a second Epik Legend, place both as best as possible using the Dual Core's measurements, and then finally run the calibration, full calibration to 500hz. I believe the diffusors will handle issues from there. I hypothesize that a pair of Legends will end up very flat. I then want to save that setting, connect the subs via lfe, and begin experimenting with different crossovers for them in this room.
I may also see if I can't put a wedge of quartered rockwool along that line between the corners. Just tape it up, and then another along the floor.
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Damn I might just do the above with this in the center
http://www.srlacoustics.com/8-ft-wide-bare-diffuser/
Gotta love this forum.
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How is this better then a miniDSP with REW EQ and biquads?
Plus it's over four times the price. I have done before and "after " measurements with the old antimode and was underwhelmed.
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I wouldn't say 4 times, more like near twice the amount when you figure in a microphone and all the cables you need. Soundcard too.
This is both automated and manual control, so you can be a beginner like myself and be good to go out the gates, and then take it from there with the more advanced settings.
Plus the correction is reported to be more advanced than the 8088. And proof is in the pudding, all the graphs and waterfalls I've seen look very impressive.
On top of that it is a battery powered dac and preamp, with remote, and there's even a screen display on the front.
Not seeing a whole lot of downside for $1100.
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And there are full range options like manual digital EQ and channel balance that I am not sure that the sub-only versions had...
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On top of that it is a battery powered dac and preamp, with remote, and there's even a screen display on the front.
The Dual core comes with a wall wort power supply and can be run in 12v DC.
Either way the thing sounds very good, but has more of a natural sounding quality (less hard) on a good 12v battery PS.
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I have done before and "after " measurements with the old antimode and was underwhelmed.
The algorithm used in the Dual Core is waaay improved over the 8033c and 8033s which I had owned.
The Dual Core will put your speakers in proper phase and adjust the crossover frequency automatically. ie: My sub is set to 100hz as the cross over point for my monitors. To me it looks like it is correct, but if I'm off by a couple of hz the Dual Core will compensate and bring the frequency into balance. As long as the frequency being corrected (calibrated) is above 100hz.
Pretty cool huh? 8)
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Pretty cool :thumb: :thumb:
In fact, that's the future. The cool thing is they aren't overcharging. It makes trying this very appealing, without waiting out a 3.0, etc, which are inevitable.
Just as the Ncore this year signalled class d amps with switching power supplies that can run with the big hogs, I mean big dogs, this here is a glimpse into the future as well, some day this stuff will be dirt cheap. Bruno Putzeys talked about a coming commoditization of audio. We are at a historical crossroads.
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Pretty cool :thumb: :thumb:
In fact, that's the future. The cool thing is they aren't overcharging. It makes trying this very appealing, without waiting out a 3.0, etc, which are inevitable.
Just as the Ncore this year signalled class d amps with switching power supplies that can run with the big hogs, I mean big dogs, this here is a glimpse into the future as well, some day this stuff will be dirt cheap. Bruno Putzeys talked about a coming commoditization of audio. We are at a historical crossroads.
Wishful thinking, it will never be cheap and we are not at the crossroads, just at a time of more product to choose from. The new generation of audiophilium may latch on to the new offerings, but the old school are too long in the tooth to change, right, wrong or indifferent. People have been saying tubes will die, then analog, and so on...
It is nice that there is more choices for more types of audiophiles, but the regalilia of this or that serves no useful purpose other than to sport heated debates that deteriorate to personal conflicts.
Jim
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We are at a historical crossroads.
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We are at a historical crossroads.
Maybe, maybe not...please explain the relevance of Ncores in the context of this thread?! There is a circle dedicated to them where it is though.
Jim
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Well Jim, I would think it would be obvious. You no longer have to spend 30 or 40K to have top spec amps. Now you can spend 8K for big power and retail or 2K for diy, and compare to anything, anything, anything that has come before...
"I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.
List of some in no particular order
Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)
A few others that I can't think of off hand. Yes, all in the same room with either my current speakers, GedLee Abbey, or the previous speakers, Meadowlark Blue Heron 2.
With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02."
-MGALUSHA
now you can best those amps listed for 1500. Same with this new device Dual Core (duh?), what was once exclusive is getting cheaper.
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Rclark:
Again, this is the wrong circle, wrong thread for what you are discussing. This circle is about bass and this thread about room correction.
Please stay on topic.
Jim
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I was on topic. You asked me a question. I answered.
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Wrong, I asked how your discussion of Ncores applied to this thread, which you didn't answer.
Jim
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Oh, what I meant was technology like amps and source rigs are going to get more advanced, smaller, and cheaper.
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Digital technology is advancing, of there that is no doubt. However, it has been doing it for a long time. The appeal of a fully-automated solution is undoubtedly there, I'd like to read more on it when I get a chance.
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RClark I think you are at a crossroads.
MiniDSP = $160 shipped
Calibrated mic, cables and pre = $250
Products built on the euro have a hard time competing.
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Don't forget the soundcard!
You're at half the cost. For a "you're on your own" solution.
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On your own? So? It's fun. It's DIY right?
My price included sound card. DSPeaker is a bit over priced.
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Does MiniDSP have an integrated preamp and dac?
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MiniDSP is actually a collection of products. But I think the target market is quite different. To each their own etc.
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RClark I think you are at a crossroads.
MiniDSP = $160 shipped
Calibrated mic, cables and pre = $250
Products built on the euro have a hard time competing.
The Euro is near record lows against the dollar. The advantage of the DSPeaker is the anti-mode algorithm which is apparently more advanced than the competition (there is more going on than meets the eye). This is why it keeps winning review awards. Review excepts below: http://www.avforums.com/reviews/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-8033-Dual-Core-review_361/Review.html
The digital signal processing utilized is a proprietary technology of parent company VLSI, who manufacture their own chip sets – Not a capability open to most manufacturers. The product for review here, is the most advanced application of their in-house capability to date and it goes a lot further than sub bass equalization. To give it it’s full title, the DSpeaker Anti-mode 2.0 Dual Core, is an asynchronous reclocking USB digital to analogue converter, with DSP room equalisation. With USB, S/PDIF optical and analogue inputs, plus a volume control, it’s also more than capable as acting as a fully fledged, remote control pre-amp too, but even that lofty list sells the Dual Core’s capabilities a bit short.
The internal architecture of the Dual Core centers around the VLSI parent company's VS8053 IceDragon chip, which handles analogue in/outputs, ADC/DAC conversion and all DSP processing on one chip. A separate VS1000 handles the GUI and the USB interface. All processing is 40bit with 6.144mHz oversampling on the ADC and DAC. The Antimode Room EQ uses a combination of Finite and Infinte Impulse Response filters, the exact number and implimentation of which, DSpeaker stays tight lipped about. This is, after all, their core technolgy. A point worth noting is that the VS8053 can only handle license free digital codecs, which means WAV (PCM & IMA ADPCM), Flac and Ogg Vorbis.
But that's not all. A flat in room repsonse is good, but one that is flat AND short is better. Short? As alluded to, a resonance is when your room starts to ring at certain frequencies. Like a bell or a glass (which is intentionally resonant) the note continues on after the initial stimulous and so does a modal peak in your room's repsonse. The subwoofer might have stopped, but the room hasn't. Your ear is actually quite poor at distinguishing a loud note from a sustained one, especially when it's mixed in with everything else that is going on in a movie soundtrack and music. In either case, additional sustain contributes to a lack of drive to your musical bass and blurs detail in LFE sound effects, to name but two examples. The best EQ devices are designed not only to measure the amplitude of your response, but it's duration and account for both. The 3D graphs (commonly known as waterfalls) below show that the Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core is firmly in the camp of the best EQ devices I've come ever across.
And the 'after' waterfall to the right exemplifies why the Dual Core is so good. It's seen the obvious peak and cut it. It's seen the extended decay of the dip and not chosen to boost. Boosting a dip isn't generally recommended, because you're effectively pouring amplifier power and driver travel into a sonic black hole, but that is a rule of thumb. It can be done in moderation and the Anti-Mode allows it, although you can also set the limit of how much is allowed. If you flick back and forth between the before/after graphs, there is a hint of boost between 20-25Hz to bring the response gently into line. Remember too, that this result is just the result of the entirely PC free, automated EQ of the Anti-Mode. For music in my room, that's job done - walk away.
Finally, I tried the Anti-Mode Dual Core as a straight DSP processor between a transport and DAC. Essentially, the Dual Core is just applying EQ and passing the resultant signal straight on. This is clearly a happy position for the Dual Core as it's passing around a relatively robust digital data stream, without any analogue conversions and is entirely transparent in it's operation. The manifest qualities of the partnering components were allowed to shine, but the expected improvements in bass quality and imaging were immediately obvious. The tightening of bass takes nothing from music and delivers propulsion and a pitch definition to the bottom end, you'd be lucky to achieve in any normal room. It was in this system, that the homogenising of the stereo image was most apparent and indeed, the most impressive difference. You see, the system was relatively modest, but well matched.
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I stand corrected
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"Corrected" nice pun. heh.
Another neat feature, not sure if MiniDSP with REW can do this, but this device does full correction at sub frequencies as mono, and then as it moves up the frequency scale into the ranges produced by the speakers, it begins correcting in stereo, and then also, as it approaches 500 hz tapers off the amount off correction until there is none.
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"Corrected" nice pun. heh.
Another neat feature, not sure if MiniDSP with REW can do this, but this device does full correction at sub frequencies as mono, and then as it moves up the frequency scale into the ranges produced by the speakers, it begins correcting in stereo, and then also, as it approaches 500 hz tapers off the amount off correction until there is none.
I spoke to the lead desgners a few weeks back and though I cant pretend to get all he said. Suffice to say he thinks the algorythm is the key. It is the most advanced and it does more than what meets the eye (ear). Something akin to artificial intelligence tech, where it tests and restests, learning more at each iteration.
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Another neat feature, not sure if MiniDSP with REW can do this, but this device does full correction at sub frequencies as mono, and then as it moves up the frequency scale into the ranges produced by the speakers, it begins correcting in stereo
Well, that's normally how you apply EQ.
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From what I understand that null is ubiquitous in small rooms and about impossible to get rid of without more subs.
And the 'after' waterfall to the right exemplifies why the Dual Core is so good. It's seen the obvious peak and cut it. It's seen the extended decay of the dip and not chosen to boost. Boosting a dip isn't generally recommended, because you're effectively pouring amplifier power and driver travel into a sonic black hole, but that is a rule of thumb. It can be done in moderation and the Anti-Mode allows it, although you can also set the limit of how much is allowed. If you flick back and forth between the before/after graphs, there is a hint of boost between 20-25Hz to bring the response gently into line. Remember too, that this result is just the result of the entirely PC free, automated EQ of the Anti-Mode. For music in my room, that's job done - walk away.
[/b]
Looks like trying to get rid of these little nulls is a bad idea.
Tim had told me this a while back before the review came out.
Rclark- You have a very good sub :D...why not try the the Dual Core on just the one sub and see how the room responds?
Perhaps there is no seed to spend a lot of cash on multiple subs? Dunno it's your call!
There is a lot of written theory supporting the use of multiple subs for proper in room bass. The guys at Dspeaker understood this and designed a product that will get you there without having to spend a small fortune on more subs, cables, and the time it takes to dial them in. :roll:
It may cost more than using Mini DSP and REW.
But hey, I sold my preamp and dac which covered the cost of the Dual Core.
It is now my preamp, dac, and room correction device all in one neat little box.
Me likey that! :thumb:
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Looks like trying to get rid of these little nulls is a bad idea.
Tim had told me this a while back before the review came out.
Rclark- You have a very good sub :D...why not try the the Dual Core on just the one sub and see how the room responds?
Perhaps there is no seed to spend a lot of cash on multiple subs? Dunno it's your call!
There is a lot of written theory supporting the use of multiple subs for proper in room bass. The guys at Dspeaker understood this and designed a product that will get you there without having to spend a small fortune on more subs, cables, and the time it takes to dial them in. :roll:
It may cost more than using Mini DSP and REW.
But hey, I sold my preamp and dac which covered the cost of the Dual Core.
It is now my preamp, dac, and room correction device all in one neat little box.
Me likey that! :thumb:
Then there is the other side that says with 2 or more subs you might not need room correction, or if so, minimal eq'ing or treatments. I personally think getting two fast subs to start is the way to go, then see what you have....
Jim
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What has been overlooked in the thread so far is the fact that the Dspeaker Dual Core is being used to solve the same bass problem that occurs with a pair of full range loudspeakers. In light of the results so far the Dspeaker Dual Core could be highly recommended to owners of full range loudspeakers who wish to tame bass problems without buying room treatments. The observed nulls related to the rooms Schroeder frequency might be reduced or eliminated entirely if one of the subs was relocated to the center of the back wall and operated out phase in combination with the equalization from the Dspeaker. Obviously this is not an option with a pair of fullrange loudspeakers.
Scotty
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What has been overlooked in the thread so far is the fact that the Dspeaker Dual Core is being used to solve the same bass problem that occurs with a pair of full range loudspeakers. In light of the results so far the Dspeaker Dual Core could be highly recommended to owners of full range loudspeakers who wish to tame bass problems without buying room treatments. The observed nulls related to the rooms Schroeder frequency might be reduced or eliminated entirely if one of the subs was relocated to the center of the back wall and operated out phase in combination with the equalization from the Dspeaker. Obviously this is not an option with a pair of fullrange loudspeakers.
Scotty
[/quote
:thumb:
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What has been overlooked in the thread so far is the fact that the Dspeaker Dual Core is being used to solve the same bass problem that occurs with a pair of full range loudspeakers. In light of the results so far the Dspeaker Dual Core could be highly recommended to owners of full range loudspeakers who wish to tame bass problems without buying room treatments. The observed nulls related to the rooms Schroeder frequency might be reduced or eliminated entirely if one of the subs was relocated to the center of the back wall and operated out phase in combination with the equalization from the Dspeaker. Obviously this is not an option with a pair of fullrange loudspeakers.
Scotty
Yes, the 2.0 in the name is not the release number of the software, rather is the code indicating that this device is aimed at 2.0 systems without sub-woofers, though it can handle 2.2 as well.
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What has been overlooked in the thread so far is the fact that the Dspeaker Dual Core is being used to solve the same bass problem that occurs with a pair of full range loudspeakers. In light of the results so far the Dspeaker Dual Core could be highly recommended to owners of full range loudspeakers who wish to tame bass problems without buying room treatments. The observed nulls related to the rooms Schroeder frequency might be reduced or eliminated entirely if one of the subs was relocated to the center of the back wall and operated out phase in combination with the equalization from the Dspeaker. Obviously this is not an option with a pair of fullrange loudspeakers.
Scotty
It can also add delay to the subs too, so if the back wall sub needs to be delayed it'll do it. I do think you'd want to get your setup as close as possible before running the corrections, but I also think the DSP is going to make a positive difference even in very carefully set up systems.
Also, I don't know about you guys, but my sub is x'ed over at 50 Hz, the DSPeaker extends to 500 Hz, so subs are just a part of it...
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The DSPeaker CAN go to 500hz, but over 250hz is NOT recommended. Our local distributor of the Dspeaker AMDC is a maker of high end speakers and has pro testing equipment. He says that above 200hz or so, you start to start creating more problems than you solve...based on his measurements.
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Yeah, at that point let your treatments take over.
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I have read through the thread and some of this is over my head. As one who has not used any kind of electronic room eq at this point (modest, but effective room treatments only), I am now at a point where I want to add a sub to my system, maybe two, and I have a question about the prudent path to take re room eq. With respect to using other kinds of room eq such as Audyssey, ARC, MAAC, etc., is the Dspeaker Core an either / or proposition, or both / and? Thanks.
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Hi roscoeiii,
I did a search and went to here http://radioproshop.com/pyramid-ps/powersupply.htm.
There are a lot of Pyramid PSU's...could you narrow it down a little for us?
I bet they are talking about this supply: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JTD2K/ref=s9_simh_gw_p422_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1K9K34SF2GJXD5JDNJS2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Yes, that is the one. It even appears as a package bundle option with the MF V-DAC on the V-DAC's Amazon page.
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I have read through the thread and some of this is over my head. As one who has not used any kind of electronic room eq at this point (modest, but effective room treatments only), I am now at a point where I want to add a sub to my system, maybe two, and I have a question about the prudent path to take re room eq. With respect to using other kinds of room eq such as Audyssey, ARC, MAAC, etc., is the Dspeaker Core an either / or proposition, or both / and? Thanks.
Either or!
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I have read through the thread and some of this is over my head. As one who has not used any kind of electronic room eq at this point (modest, but effective room treatments only), I am now at a point where I want to add a sub to my system, maybe two, and I have a question about the prudent path to take re room eq. With respect to using other kinds of room eq such as Audyssey, ARC, MAAC, etc., is the Dspeaker Core an either / or proposition, or both / and? Thanks.
The distinct advantage of the DSPeaker Dual Core (to my mind) is that the correction of room modes is totally automatic. It takes about ten minutes and you're done. In addition, there is a 16 filter parametric equalizer that can be used if you feel the need to manually shape the room response above 250Hz. And there is a capable and transparent DAC that can handle up to 24/96 tracks. Hard to beat, in my view.
Guido F.
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How is the DAC vs others?
roscoeiii, you just sold a gungnir.
Right now I have a gungnir and a W4S pre, and I'm looking into Eq. I could use the dual core as a digital in/out eq, or replace my DAC and pre and use all its features. I have a behringer eq that I stopped using years ago, thought the flatter response wasn't worth the negatives, didn't sound as natural.
Ryan
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Hi ryno,
I didn't have a chance to A/B the Gungnir with the DSPeaker Dual Core. The Gungnir was sold and I need to get it shipped tomorrow, but maybe I will A/B just the DAC performance tomorrow before I pack up the Gungnir.
What sold me on the DSPeaker was its positive impact on the sound of my system (bass in particular) when using the analog input for my vinyl playback (!). I A/Bed the DSPeaker A/D/A in bypass mode (no DSP employed) with an all analog signal, and while the audition was not very very extensive (where I imagine small differences would probably be revealed), I heard no degradation of the sound (output level was lower through the DSPeaker though, I needed to adjust listening levels with an SPL meter; incidentally this is a good thing in my system, which has a little too much gain overall). Once the DSP was run (via Typical setting) the Dual Core clearly improved the sound.
More details to come as I live with the DSPeaker for a little while longer.
Only gripe so far is that I haven't had any luck with the Toslink input (which the dealer said was picky). Analog and USB work fine. Hopefully toying with the optical cables will get this sorted out.
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I would be interested to hear a comparison between the DSPeaker and Gungnir DACs, I currently have a Bifrost and am considering the DSPeaker. I've also been looking into other options but I worry sound quality may not match the DSPeaker unit.
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Hi Rodge:
Glad to read that you and your family made it safely through Hurricane Sandy.
Jim
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Thanks roscoeiii,
Your trouble with optical, is that with analog or digital input?
Thanks again, Ryan
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optical input is the issue. But I will freely admit that my optical cables are junk and the mini plug to optical adaptor that I need for my Mac's optical output has given me problem before. Just haven't had much time to investigate. I also have an Oppo with optical out but just haven't pulled it out yet to see how that works.
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I had issues with the optical input in that it wouldn't play 96K material, the 44K was fine. I ended up getting a Toslink to Toslink cable from these guys and it sorted out the issue: http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html
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And there is a capable and transparent DAC that can handle up to 24/96 tracks.
I had issues with the optical input in that it wouldn't play 96K material, the 44K was fine.
I'm wondering about this. Doesn't the Dual Core convert everything to 48 kHz for its internal processing?
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no, it converts to 40 bit/6100khz or 6.1mhz.
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no, it converts to 40 bit/6100khz or 6.1mhz.
Not a spec I have seen previously in DACs. Usually it seems to be 16/44.1, 24/96, or 24/192. And for the Antelope DACs and others, I have seen mention of 64 bits and 384 kHz capability.
Curious that the DSPeaker does not follow along these common multiples of doubling kHZ.
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6.144 MHz is 128 x 48 kHz, that's the oversampling rate on the DAC, not the internal processing rate. Given that the TOSLINK output is at 48 kHz, it seems most likely that that's the internal processing rate. wisnon, can you ask them?
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Not a spec I have seen previously in DACs. Usually it seems to be 16/44.1, 24/96, or 24/192. And for the Antelope DACs and others, I have seen mention of 64 bits and 384 kHz capability.
Curious that the DSPeaker does not follow along these common multiples of doubling kHZ.
Nad M51 uses 35bit/768khz.
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6.144 MHz is 128 x 48 kHz, that's the oversampling rate on the DAC, not the internal processing rate. Given that the TOSLINK output is at 48 kHz, it seems most likely that that's the internal processing rate. wisnon, can you ask them?
Yes, I will ask, but I think with a recent firmware update the Toslink does 96khz output.
From the tweekgeek.com site:
DSpeaker Dual Core - Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core
What is the sampling frequency on S/PDIF, analog and USB?
The S/PDIF receiver supports the standard PCM rates 32kHz/44.1kHz/48kHz plus 96kHz with upto 24 bits, whatever comes from the source. The S/PDIF receiver can also be configured to support 192kHz. We are not sure if 192kHz will be enabled in the first firmware version.
Analog input rate is by default 48kHz.
Technically, USB Audio supports several configurations from 44.1kHz/32-bit through 192kHz/16-bit. The most useful rates will be provided, the default is 44.1kHz/48kHz with 24 bits.
The audio processing is performed in 32-bit domain, so 24-bit with 48kHz rate is optimal.
What USB version does the USB DAC mode support?
The hardware is USB 1.3 (Full Speed), several USB Audio configurations can be supported. The default is 24-bit 44.1kHz/48kHz
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They also told me on the phone that USB reception will be upgraded in future firmware iterations so that very hi-rez files can at least be played back. However, they did say that it wont SOUND better, given that their DAC process will still use local clocking and still upsample everything to 6.1mhz.
=============================
The guys from Dspeaker are very responsive.
Q&A from Dspeaker:
What are the current max sample rates accepted into the USB and Toslink digital input channels? I was under the impression that Toslink was 24/96 and that USB was 24/48 and that possibly in a future firmware update, USB can go up to 24/192.
Currently the Toslink can go 24/96 (latest firmware) and USB 48/24.
Am I correct here? I hope so because I have at least 20 hi-rez albums of 176khz and higher that I wont be able to play otherwise from my laptop.
You should be able to play them, as USB should be able to send the data in 48/24. Also the ADC of the AM2DC is 192kHz, so you could also use analog input if nothing else works.
Please let me know the current status and future upgrade plans in the works.
Yes we will. We'll announce any new firmware features on our website, so stay tuned.
Any plans to allow Toslink and USB input to accept 24/192? I have a lot of hires albums and can make more from my SACDs.
It is difficult to say yet about 24/192 as we are still planning the 24/96. However, the analog input already is 192kHz and USB should be able to feed the data in 24/48 format. With 6.144MHz reclocking, 24/48 is essentially as good as 24/192 as there is no jitter (which is more relevant than the ultrasonics).
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The internal architecture of the Dual Core centers around the VLSI parent company's VS8053 IceDragon chip, which handles analogue in/outputs, ADC/DAC conversion and all DSP processing on one chip. A separate VS1000 handles the GUI and the USB interface. All processing is 40bit with 6.144mHz oversampling on the ADC and DAC. The Antimode Room EQ uses a combination of Finite and Infinte Impulse Response filters, the exact number and implimentation of which, DSpeaker stays tight lipped about. This is, after all, their core technolgy. A point worth noting is that the VS8053 can only handle license free digital codecs, which means WAV (PCM & IMA ADPCM), Flac and Ogg Vorbis.
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Several items in your quote suggest again that the internal sample rate is 48 kHz e.g. "Analog input rate is by default 48kHz" and "24-bit with 48kHz rate is optimal". Firmware updates can't really change that, at least not without some other compromise, as the DSP only has a specific amount of computational power, if the internal sample rate is doubled then the processing per sample is halved.
I'm not saying it's a problem, it's something fairly fundamental to these DSP-based units. If someone who had one could measure the frequency response, that would pretty much tell.
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Could very well be...
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For me, all this is fine and dandy, as I'll be spinning cd's, and won't initially be bothered by sampling rates. I'm still locked on this as my next imminent purchase.
My Ncores have significantly disrupted the integration I had with my Maggies, I've had to drop the crossover down on the sub quite a bit, and while it's balanced now, I liked the midbassy punch the Legend was delivering when combined with my hipassed Virtue amp. The integration was so good that at my listening position I couldn't tell where the speakers ended and the sub began. It's still integrated, but now the speakers are doing more of the lower bass, and of course, it's not as punchy as the sub (despite being of exquisite quality). However, the Ncores are gobsmackingly better than my old amp, so I can live with this issue for now until I get the Dual Core.
I'm hoping I can use this device to hipass my speakers a bit, cut off anything below 80hz and bring my sub back up, and have a pair of the subs, one near each speaker. I think, combined with the correction ability of the unit, and some treatments, it will be devastatingly good, Having cake and eating it too, an excells-at-all-types-of-music situation.
Anyway, carry on.
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I'm hoping I can use this device to hipass my speakers a bit, cut off anything below 80hz
I don't have one, but I don't think it does that (assuming you want the sub to be in the correction loop). A highpass passive filter in front of the NCores might be your best bet - that's what you had with the Virtue, I believe.
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It's hard to tell by the manual, but it kind of looks like it can do high pass out the xlr, and low pass out RCA, all eq'ed.
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Rclark:
If you liked the integration before the Ncores, all that was really required was adjusting the gain on your subwoofer to match the output of your Magnepan's.
Having said that, you can leave the sub at whatever cutoff point as before.
Jim
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Maybe you can't use the xovers with a 2.2 system. In the connection guide, http://www.dspeaker.com/en/technology/anti-mode-technology/anti-mode-20-dual-core-connection-examples.shtml
Under 2.2, it says you must use your subs xover, not the built in's. probably means you can't use the high pass either.
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What JohnR noted, high pass from the Ncores. Rclark, again, if you liked the way your system sounded with the Virtues, do the high pass as per JohnR and merely adjust the gain to match the output of your Maggie's.
Don't over think it, keep it simple!
Jim
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Rclark:
If you liked the integration before the Ncores, all that was really required was adjusting the gain on your subwoofer to match the output of your Magnepan's.
Having said that, you can leave the sub at whatever cutoff point as before.
Jim
thanks Jim, I will try that later on tonight.
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Maybe you can't use the xovers with a 2.2 system. In the connection guide, http://www.dspeaker.com/en/technology/anti-mode-technology/anti-mode-20-dual-core-connection-examples.shtml
Under 2.2, it says you must use your subs xover, not the built in's. probably means you can't use the high pass either.
Ryno,
No you can't use the High Pass/Low Pass feature for a 2.2 set up, it's one or the other.
I found this out when I tried to do exactly as you suggested. With High Pass it was monitors only and Low Pass was subs only.
On the back of the Dual Core there is a Data Link port. In the future you might be able to buy a second Dual Core to connect them to each other via an umbilical cord. The Dual Cores will be able to "talk" to each other and you will then be able to use them as a 2 way electronic crossover.
As explained to me by Tim Ryan.
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But could you treat the dual subs as a single sub by using a splitter?
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Perhaps you can...never thought to try that. :scratch:
Anyone out there with a 2.2 system wants to try this, please do.
I'm without a system at the moment courtesy of Sandy! :evil:
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But could you treat the dual subs as a single sub by using a splitter?
I emailed them about this, as far as having 2 speakers and 4 subs. Yes, split it.
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thanks Jim, I will try that later on tonight.
That worked! Holy ••••! That is just unbelievably awesome sounding. I am in lust with this sound.
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I'm not saying it's a problem, it's something fairly fundamental to these DSP-based units. If someone who had one could measure the frequency response, that would pretty much tell.
I'm visiting Mike at Tweekgeek this coming weekend and perhaps I can run a sweep on his, assuming there is interest.
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Hi ryno,
I didn't have a chance to A/B the Gungnir with the DSPeaker Dual Core. The Gungnir was sold and I need to get it shipped tomorrow, but maybe I will A/B just the DAC performance tomorrow before I pack up the Gungnir.
What sold me on the DSPeaker was its positive impact on the sound of my system (bass in particular) when using the analog input for my vinyl playback (!). I A/Bed the DSPeaker A/D/A in bypass mode (no DSP employed) with an all analog signal, and while the audition was not very very extensive (where I imagine small differences would probably be revealed), I heard no degradation of the sound (output level was lower through the DSPeaker though, I needed to adjust listening levels with an SPL meter; incidentally this is a good thing in my system, which has a little too much gain overall). Once the DSP was run (via Typical setting) the Dual Core clearly improved the sound.
More details to come as I live with the DSPeaker for a little while longer.
Only gripe so far is that I haven't had any luck with the Toslink input (which the dealer said was picky). Analog and USB work fine. Hopefully toying with the optical cables will get this sorted out.
I am using a Wyred For Sound Music server with my Dual Core. Since the W4S. does not have USB out and Dual Core does not have a Coaxial input, I have to use toslink as well. If you could, please post if you find a toslink cable that works well. Thanks
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Coaxial digital cables can vary the sound due to differences in electrical impedance, capacitance and connector geometry, but the best you can do for a Toslink optical cable is to have high quality glass fibers that have ends properly polished and terminated.
I don't think you can do any better than the Lifatec Silflex Glass Toslink (http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html) cables. Their cost is based on precision materials and German manufacturing, but without additional audiophile markup.
http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html (http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html)
Steve
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I'm using a Wireworld Super Nova V with my Dual Core. They make the Super Nova VI now and it runs around $135.00.
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That worked! Holy ••••! That is just unbelievably awesome sounding. I am in lust with this sound.
Rclark:
Glad it worked out!
Jim
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I don't think you can do any better than the Lifatec Silflex Glass Toslink (http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html) cables. Their cost is based on precision materials and German manufacturing, but without additional audiophile markup.
http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html (http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html)
Steve
I second this suggestion. The Lifatec is an excellent cable and a great value for money.
Guido F.
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Rclark:
Glad it worked out!
Jim
Yeah, thanks Jim, that was a neat trick!
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I'm visiting Mike at Tweekgeek this coming weekend and perhaps I can run a sweep on his, assuming there is interest.
Hi Mike, I'd be interested, if it's not too much trouble :)
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Anyone using it in place of a preamp? I currently have mine going directly into a Simaudio amp. However, I have the new Primare A34.2 amp coming in and was thinking about buying the matching pre as well. But now, I don't know. The Primare Pre32 is a nice looking piece and would look great in my rack, but I'm just not sure if there will any sonics benefits to having it in the system. Thoughts?
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The dealer I bought mine from (Jeff Stake in Bloomington Indiana, great guy & very helpful :thumb:) was using his DSPeaker Dual Core as a preamp in his set-up with Harbeths and I forget what amp (a Scandinavian maker, IIRC). Didn't have a chance to listen to that set-up, but he liked it a lot.
I will add bypassing my preamp (a MF kW linestage that has always made such a great contribution to my sound) to my to-do list.
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Hi Mike, I'd be interested, if it's not too much trouble :)
I'll see if it can be arranged.
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Anyone using it in place of a preamp?
Yes I am...47 Labs Transport>MSB Digital Director>Dual Core Optical SPDIF Input>XLR output to Amp and RCA outputs to dual subs.
I'm running the front end on 12v battery and truly do love the way it sounds not quite as hard in sound as with the supplied ps. Less cables and fewer places for the signal to pass through.
I A/B'ed the Dual Core Dac with a Buffalo 32s Dac (RCA Analog Input) and felt that the Dual Core Dac did an excellent job at getting the music across. My transport has dual coaxial outputs so the comparison was in real time.
Give it a try and see what you think, you might just like it that way.
I sold my 32s and Warpspeed Optocoupler which covered the cost for the Dual Core.
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Just be sure the output of the Dual-Core is sufficient to drive your amp. It's output of 1.65V will not push my Bottlehead 300B amps as loud as I desire, so I am limited to using it on just the subs.
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Yeah, I thought that would be a problem for me too.
But it drove my Virtual Mode amp and OzarkToms' TBI MG3 just fine into my Shelby + Kroll 86db into 6ohm monitors.
System dependent I guess.
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Yeah, I thought that would be a problem for me too.
But it drove my Virtual Mode amp and OzarkToms' TBI MG3 just fine into my Shelby + Kroll 86db into 6ohm monitors.
System dependent I guess.
I drive my Magnepan 2.5's that are 84db and 4ohm with a pair Marantz Model 9's in triode most of the time. In triode they're rated at 40 watts. If it starts to get a bit compressed on the top, I switch to Ultra-Linear (70 watts).
To be fair, my 2.5's did have the x/o's upgraded to 2.6 specs which would bring them up to 87db....
Jim
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I would say that too much gain is a more common problem than not enough gain, especially if going all digital. I appreciated the lower 1.65v output in my system.
Of course amp gain will vary, as does speaker efficiency.
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I would say that too much gain is a more common problem than not enough gain, especially if going all digital.
Tru dat! :thumb:
I forgot to mention that the Virtual Mode amp has a low input at .25v, high gain, and unlimited bandwidth.
The amp was designed to work with passive pre amps, so the Dual Core fits in rather well. I really like the analog attenuator using 1/2db steps and not 2db that is common among many stepped attenuators. You can dial in the loudness to your relative liking, and not get caught in that too loud or too soft conundrum.
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Though be aware that the volume control and all controls are remote only
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Hi Rodge:
Glad to read that you and your family made it safely through Hurricane Sandy.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
As it is right now we are dealing with the car insurance companies and flood insurance people.
I'm almost finished documenting all of the contents that were lost and getting the necessary supporting doc's from my electrician, builder, mold remediation guy, and plumber to submit for reimbursement. :roll:
Here's a couple of things for you or anyone living in a flood zone.
I have been living in my home for 22yrs. A few years ago FEMA (I think it was them or another power that be) raised the flood elevation 3". So my original flood certificate is worthless and I need a new one before I can have a new hot water heater and furnace installed :x.
It will take about 10 days for my civil engineer and golf buddy Jeff to issue a new one at a cost of $650.00 :evil:. No more gimmies for him! :P
Bottom line is take some time to look into any changes that may have occurred and get the doc' updated. Things will go a lot faster if you should you ever have to deal with this kind of a situation.
Now back to the Dual Core thread.
Though be aware that the volume control and all controls are remote only
I find it to be very transparent and I heard through the vine that Dspeaker will be publishing the codes so that a universal remote could be used.
Hope so the remote is kinda' small and flimsy.
At times I feel that I might break it. :weights:
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Even without the codes, I believe it is possible to use a learning remote with the capability to "read" the signal that the DSPeaker remote is sending. A bit more time consuming a process tho...
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Even without the codes, I believe it is possible to use a learning remote with the capability to "read" the signal that the DSPeaker remote is sending. A bit more time consuming a process tho...
I did this with a URC universal remote and it works great. Didn't take much time at all. Tucked the Dspeaker remote away for safe keeping!
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Anyone using it in place of a preamp? I currently have mine going directly into a Simaudio amp. However, I have the new Primare A34.2 amp coming in and was thinking about buying the matching pre as well. But now, I don't know. The Primare Pre32 is a nice looking piece and would look great in my rack, but I'm just not sure if there will any sonics benefits to having it in the system. Thoughts?
FWIW, I tried the Dual Core as a preamp in my system and found the sound very clean but lacking in dynamics and body. Sort of like the sound I get when using the passive option in my preamp. Not at all convincing.
Guido F.
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Even without the codes, I believe it is possible to use a learning remote with the capability to "read" the signal that the DSPeaker remote is sending. A bit more time consuming a process tho...
I use an inexpensive Logitech Harmony 300. It controls up to 4 devices and had no problem " learning" from the Dual Core (flimsy) remote.
Guido F.
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FWIW, I tried the Dual Core as a preamp in my system and found the sound very clean but lacking in dynamics and body. Sort of like the sound I get when using the passive option in my preamp. Not at all convincing.
Guido F.
And were the dynamics and body restored when you reinserted your preamp?
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And were the dynamics and body restored when you reinserted your preamp?
Yes, they were. Of course, this may be system dependent. But in my system it holds true no matter what recordings I use in the comparison.
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"How good is the Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core? Let’s put it this way: TAS’ Dr. Robert E. Greene has already seen fit to give the product a coveted 2012 TAS Golden Ear Award (in Issue 225) and is, I believe, working on a full-review now. To grasp the draw of the product, it helps to know that DSPeaker claims the Anti Mode 2.0 Dual-Core provides “automatic room correction” and can “fix ANY stereo system in 5 minutes.”
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tas-cedia-2012-show-report-audio-electronics-sources-part-1/
still epically pumped. Hopefully just a few weeks away from plunking down money for my own.
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A heads-up on a potential power supply upgrade for the DSPeaker Dual Core. Scroll down to the 3rd post:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112051.new#new
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Looks promising! :D
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Looks promising! :D
I nominate you to purchase one to compare to the battery power set up you have! :thumb:
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I nominate you to purchase one to compare to the battery power set up you have! :thumb:
Any one to second?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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great news! new firmware update!
Dec 2 2012
Asynchronous audio transmission in USB mode for improved audio quality
Improved compatibility in USB mode (Squeezebox Touch via USB etc.)
Two user-selectable volume control schemes in USB mode: by remote and by computer. "By remote" ensures that volume level stays consistent with other input modes but master volume requests from the computer are ignored. "By computer" setting routes all volume adjustments through the computer. In this mode, a sudden volume change is possible, especially when connecting the unit to a computer for the first time. Please use with caution. Both modes of operation still utilize the high quality analog volume control IC in Dual Core so audio quality is not compromised in either of the modes.
Added playback controls in USB mode (play/pause and next/previous track)
Compensation setting of the room correction can now be freely adjusted after calibration (using 0.5dB steps)
Improved user interface responsiveness (faster switching of sound profiles, faster bypass/Anti-Mode etc)
New settings menu layout
New homescreen menu (located in Settings menu) allows re-mapping the remote controller's arrow button actions within the homescreen. Separate functions can be assigned to left/right buttons and up/down buttons. The choices are: bass, treble, (full spectrum) tilt, loudness, next/previous track in USB mode, next/previous input switching and off. The OK button can be assigned to either Play/Pause function (in USB mode) or main menu access. (Playback control commands require compatible software on the computer side.)
Highpass and lowpass filters can now be assigned on per-channel basis (allows "1.1" operation).
Added numeric feedback for QuickTone adjustments
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Looks promising! :D
Be aware that the DSPEAKER does use a "quality" SMPS, so there is no guarantee that this Linear PSU is better (though it could be, given that this Linear PSU uses 2 rectifiers for a start...). Here is some chatter about the SMPS in the iUSB power that will help to create some food for thought....
>>>>> how does this device actulaly work? I am not sure how it is to be used. It is not a USB-Spdif converter, so what actually is it? How would it be used with such a converter? Is the iUSB powered by a SMPS?
Wednesday at 12:20am · Edited · Like
>>>>> Is there a manual online?
Wednesday at 12:17am · Like
iFi Audio ,
First, you can find more details and manuals etc. On-Line.
Secondly,the iUSBPower plugs into the USB connection between the PC/Mac and any USB Audio Device. Some of the more extreme High End gear does not draw power from the USB, the vast majority of USB Audio Devices, including USB to SPDIF Converters do.
In recent times we have seen some attempts to for example split up USB Cables and Lithium Polymer batteries to substitute the power supply, however most batteries when actually supplying are quite noisy (see our AP2 measurement which includes a 9V Dry Cell, rechargables are worse).
The iUSBPower contains noise filtering using multiple LCR filters and a so-called super regulator (as opposed to a simple cheap 3-pin regulator) which is similar but not identical to the one described by Walt Jung under this name.
As a result you isolate the USB Audio Device (including USB to SPDIF converters) from the computers power supply and you give a power supply much cleaner than that from the Computer.
Additionally we have also build in some ground impedance management and the option to break the USB ground connection entirely. This can help a lot with noise loops.
Third, you ask is it powered by an SMPS, plugtop type which we supply, however any source of around 9V DC may be applied (at your own risk, mind you). As we wanted a simple way of being able to sell and use the iFi worldwide and we wanted to avoid wasting power, we had to use a custom low noise SMPS.
In basic principle an SMPS is a much better choice power supply than using 50/60Hz rectified. The high frequency at which they produce their AC means transformers can be small and thus minimise noise leakage from the mains, they always use choke input filtering and the high frequency means relatively small components are required to filter any noise.
Another factor, such a supply may be made universal (runs on any mains voltage/frequency current, even DC) and if well designed efficiency will be very high, well over 90%.
However, many common inexpensive examples are build so badly they barely pass FCC requirements. This means they radiate a lot of noise back into the mains and often have very large levels of noise on the output.
The first examples we bought straight in shops like Radio-shack were horrendous. The noise on both the mains input side and the output side was sufficiently high to be visible easily on cheap oscilloscopes. output ripple went from 10's to 100's of millivolt.
Opening them up revealed that the RF filtering was not fitted, that the chokes and capacitors where of insufficient value and that several parts that would have produced low noise where missing, even though there where spaces provisioned on the PCB to fit them.
So we worked with a factory to produce our own plug-top power supply, which not only has all the extra parts fitted but goes beyond this. The result is a power supply that leaks very little noise into the mains (you can measure it, but it needs an expensive analyser, scope traces are clean).
Overall, a common linear supply using a transformer, common rectifiers and a 3-Pin regulator will produce more noise (including noise radiated into the mains) than our SMPS. Do not expect most SMPS's to perform similarly.
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Norman,
Was the reply by Dspeaker?
Is this about the original PS or a new upgraded one?
I've been straightening up the garage and my new office all day and I'm a little brain dead! :sleep:
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No, this was a reply from iFI audio, but I just sent a request for info to Dspeaker.
I THINK I recall Tony saying that his SMPS was good too, but my memory is failing and in any case, it was not an elaborate response like this.
How ya doing anyway?
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OK, I got it now..... :)
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OK, I got it now..... :)
SMPS done right is a GOOD thing, but unfortunately, its often where manufacturers cut corners and supply the cheapest, barely passable type just so the package is complete. iFi audio, clearly did not and thus the iUSB power is sold out and will be selling like hot cakes when they are back in stock.
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Major sound quality improvement with DSPeaker's Dec 2, 2012 firmware update, in my view. Greater clarity, truer timbres, more realistic musical presentation. No asynchronous USB support beyond 16/48 yet, but 24/96 is in the works and has been promised for a future release.
Guido F.
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Good news.
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The current issue of The Absolute Sound has an informative review of the Dual Core (by Robert Greene, on p. 88), which goes into some detail in describing the ways the device can be used for more than just bass control.
The discussion of the Dual Core's 16 band parametric EQ is particularly useful.
Two nits to pick with the review:
1. The author gives the impression that one cannot calibrate a 2.1 or 2.2 system, but in fact this can be done by connecting sub(s) to the DUal Core's RCA outs and connecting amp, or preferably preamp, to the XLR outs. In this scheme, not only is the bass corrected for both main speakers and sub(s), but obviously also all EQ is affecting both.
2. Dr. Greene states that exporting the room response measurements requires a program that is still not available from the manufacturer's web site. This is not correct as far as Windows OS is concerned. Measurements are in fact exportable via the PC Link menu option as text files that can be read in a PC by a program such as REW.
Nevertheless, an excellent review, well worth reading.
Guido F.
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The current issue of The Absolute Sound has an informative review of the Dual Core (by Robert Greene, on p. 88), which goes into some detail in describing the ways the device can be used for more than just bass control.
The discussion of the Dual Core's 16 band parametric EQ is particularly useful.
Two nits to pick with the review:
1. The author gives the impression that one cannot calibrate a 2.1 or 2.2 system, but in fact this can be done by connecting sub(s) to the DUal Core's RCA outs and connecting amp, or preferably preamp, to the XLR outs. In this scheme, not only is the bass corrected for both main speakers and sub(s), but obviously also all EQ is affecting both.
Guido F.
IIRC, I think that the issue is that a single DualCore cannot be used to provide high and low pass filters for systems with subs.
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Yes, that is correct. In an application with only one Dual Core, one needs to use the sub's own cross over (or an external crossover).
Guido F.
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The Gungnir DAC is very good, if you have decided to go with a new source. BUT, if you are going source, I'd recommend a DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0
i would HOPE a $1,000 DAC would sound better, but it's too pricey for me, and regarding lower cost DACs, i want something i won't feel the need to upgrade from once grain, or veiling etc. become apparent. if there's a DAC that's voiced more towards neutrality without too much of it ala "class A rated" benchmark that's the same price as a gungnir, i'll consider that, but that DSPeaker is fugly too. i'm trying to upgrade aesthetics a little too.
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It's tiny, just hide it. I'd rather have it utilitarian at $1200 than in some display case for $2000.
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i would HOPE a $1,000 DAC would sound better, but it's too pricey for me, and regarding lower cost DACs, i want something i won't feel the need to upgrade from once grain, or veiling etc. become apparent. if there's a DAC that's voiced more towards neutrality without too much of it ala "class A rated" benchmark that's the same price as a gungnir, i'll consider that, but that DSPeaker is fugly too. i'm trying to upgrade aesthetics a little too.
I have had a number of Dac's in my system and the Dac in the Dual Core can stand up to all but one!
That was a custom Audionote Kits 2.1b Sig Dac that a friend of mine built for me. The parts ran well over $3500.00, over sized BG Caps in the PS, AN Silver in Oil Coupling Caps ($1000.00), 2w Tantalum resistors, Digital board upgrades, all an silver hook up wire etc....
The Dual Core Dac sounds best run on a 12v linear or 12v battery power supply. I have mine on battery and have no desire to change. The Dual Core is a serious piece of gear, don't let the spartan looks fool you. With all the Dual Core has to offer $1200.00 is a steal!
Good Luck,
Rodge
Simplifi Audio the Dspeaker US Distributor has a $100.00 off sale with a 20 day trial and 90% money return if you don't like it.
http://www.simplifiaudio.com/
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I have had a number of Dac's in my system and the Dac in the Dual Core can stand up to all but one!
That was a custom Audionote Kits 2.1b Sig Dac that a friend of mine built for me. The parts ran well over $3500.00, over sized BG Caps in the PS, AN Silver in Oil Coupling Caps ($1000.00), 2w Tantalum resistors, Digital board upgrades, all an silver hook up wire etc....
The Dual Core Dac sounds best run on a 12v linear or 12v battery power supply. I have mine on battery and have no desire to change. The Dual Core is a serious piece of gear, don't let the spartan looks fool you. With all the Dual Core has to offer $1200.00 is a steal!
Good Luck,
Rodge
Simplifi Audio the Dspeaker US Distributor has a $100.00 off sale with a 20 day trial and 90% money return if you don't like it.
http://www.simplifiaudio.com/
+1! First class piece of kit IMO.
Guido F.
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I have a Dual Core coming in a few days on a loaner basis and have a few questions I hope some of you who have one could answer. I have a 2.1 system (Selah Audio SSR's and Whomp) and the sub is connected off the speaker taps of my integrated amp (no sub out). Would I be better off leaving it this way so the DC sees a 2.0 system, or should I try using the balanced outputs to the amp and unbalanced to the sub?
Am I correct in my understanding that with a sub I would not be able to use a high pass and low pass at the same time? If so, in what situation could you use both?
In all of the connection examples, the DC comes before a DAC. Could you have it after the DAC and use the analogue outputs of the DAC and analogue inputs of the DC to access 24/192 tracks?
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I haven't used a sub with my DC, but I can speak to your second question.
Short answer: yes, you can feed the analog output of your DAC to the analog input to the Dual Core. And the A/D/A conversion of the Dual Core is excellent, very transparent. I was shocked when I A/Bed it with my turntable straight thru the pre-amp (with no DSP on, to just test the A/D/A impact on the sound).
BUT, I think many people would tell you that going from the analog output of your DAC to the Dual Core is not ideal. In general, it is thought to be a good idea to have as little conversion of a signal as possible. You may have to test out what sounds best to you. If you really like your current DAC and want to keep it in the chain, I'd run the Dual Core in digital mode and use the digital inputs and digital outputs.
Or are you asking because one or both of the digital inputs of the Dual Core don't accommodate 24/192? If that is the case, I'd play around with what sounds best. You have it in to audition, so you can compare these and get back to us on what you find.
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I have a Dual Core coming in a few days on a loaner basis and have a few questions I hope some of you who have one could answer. I have a 2.1 system (Selah Audio SSR's and Whomp) and the sub is connected off the speaker taps of my integrated amp (no sub out). Would I be better off leaving it this way so the DC sees a 2.0 system, or should I try using the balanced outputs to the amp and unbalanced to the sub?
Am I correct in my understanding that with a sub I would not be able to use a high pass and low pass at the same time? If so, in what situation could you use both?
In all of the connection examples, the DC comes before a DAC. Could you have it after the DAC and use the analogue outputs of the DAC and analogue inputs of the DC to access 24/192 tracks?
The Dual Core will work with either way that you want to incorporate the sub. My guess would be that using the dual output method will produce better results. I use the dual output method for my 2.2 set up.
Yes, you are correct that you can only use one "pass" feature at a time. To use them both you will need to purchase 2 Dual Core units and connect them via the Data input, so they can "talk" to each other. The only issue is that Dspeaker hasn't addressed using the Dual Core this way and the software hasn't been written. I had this same question, and that was the answer I got back in September. Things might be different now.
Yes the Dual Core can come after the Dac, but I'm not sure about passing the 24/192 tracks. I don't run hi-rez so I'm not to sure if the internal dac will reproduce that high of a bit rate.
How will you be implementing the Dual Core as preamp or in conjunction with one?
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Through the analog input, A/D/A is 24/192.
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Thanks for the quick responses!!!
How will you be implementing the Dual Core as preamp or in conjunction with one?
For now the Dual Core will be the DAC/room correction between my computer and integrated amp.
Or are you asking because one or both of the digital inputs of the Dual Core don't accommodate 24/192? If that is the case, I'd play around with what sounds best. You have it in to audition, so you can compare these and get back to us on what you find.
Since the Dual Core doesn't do 24/192 I was looking for a way around that limitation. It's not a big deal for me at this point but I was just thinking about options for down the road. I'll let you know what I find out.
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Through the analog input, A/D/A is 24/192.
Is this new with firmware upgrade (Feb 13?). Before I was sure it was a limit of 24/96
House Curve, Linear-Phase Tilt, Parametric EQs, Adjustable Infrasonic Filter
• Toslink S/PDIF input: 24-bit 32 / 44.1 / 48 kHz and 88.2 / 96 kHz compatible
• USB input: 24-bit 44.1 / 48 kHz
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My understanding was that the A/D/A process was 24/192, even if the DAC inputs might not be able to accommodate 24/192.
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Roscoe,
Please elaborate, I dont follow you.
The ADC to DAC process is 24/192? Is that wht you say?
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IIRC the A/D/A through the analog input is at 24/192. But the digital inputs (or one of the digital inputs) are not 24/192 capable. This may be due to the need for a special driver to do 24/192 on the USB and/or due to the limitations of optical inputs (which I often notice are capped at 24/96).
The manual doesn't seem to give specs for the A/D/A conversion. But I either read that somewhere else, or was told that by a dealer. Or I just hallucinated this idea.
Maybe someone else can track down a reference or prove me wrong on this.
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Roscoe,
Please elaborate, I dont follow you.
The ADC to DAC process is 24/192? Is that what you say?
Wisnon,
Quickly Googling, it looks like you received this information from DSPeaker and had posted this info on Computer Audiophile. From what you posted a while back (October 2012) DSPeaker's responses to wisnon are in bold:
"I have at least 20 hi-rez albums of 176khz and higher that I wont be able to play otherwise from my laptop.
You should be able to play them, as USB should be able to send the data in 48/24. Also the ADC of the AM2DC is 192kHz, so you could also use analog input if nothing else works.
Please let me know the current status and future upgrade plans in the works.
Yes we will. We'll announce any new firmware features on our website, so stay tuned.
Any plans to allow Toslink and USB input to accept 24/192? I have a lot of hires albums and can make more from my SACDs.
It is difficult to say yet about 24/192 as we are still planning the 24/96. However, the analog input already is 192kHz and USB should be able to feed the data in 24/48 format. With 6.144MHz reclocking, 24/48 is essentially as good as 24/192 as there is no jitter (which is more relevant than the ultrasonics)."
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That is my point, the ADCis 24/192 but the DAC is not! ADCs are almost always of a lower quality than the Dac, despite the frequencies allowed.
You had said ADA which is the full chain , and that is what confused me. It accepts 24/192, upsamples to 40/6144 but can only output digital at 24/96 at best.
Of course it can convert from the 40/6144 back to analog, but that means its not possible to feed it ultra-hires digital.
I think we agree, its just semantics.
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That is my point, the ADCis 24/192 but the DAC is not! ADCs are almost always of a lower quality than the Dac, despite the frequencies allowed.
You had said ADA whichis the full chain, and that is not the case. It accepts 24/192, upsamples to 40/6144 but can only output digital at 24/96 at best.
Of course it can convert from the 40/6144 back to analog, but that means its not possible to feed it ultra-hires digital.
I think we agree, its just semantics.
Never said it was possible to feed it an ultra-hi res digital signal (by which I assume you mean 24/192 and above).
So is it the digital output that like the digital input that is the limiting factor? That would be my guess. I have not looked into digital outputs at all. You would need to have a mighty fine DAC for that to be worthwhile, IMO. I hope to hear more experiences of folks who do try this.
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Just confusion Roscoe...I agree I didnt get what you meant and so asked for clarification. No harm, you even reminded me of a post I forgot about.
I do have a great tube Dac, and so its a concern for me. It's a Lampi L4 multi bit....
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Just confusion Roscoe...I agree I didnt get what you meant and so asked for clarification. No harm, you even reminded me of a post I forgot about.
I do have a great tube Dac, and so its a concern for me. It's a Lampi L4 multi bit....
That is supposed to be one sweet DAC for sure.
My priority is largely vinyl at the moment, which leaves me very content with the Dual Core performing those duties.
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Latest Feb. 13 firmware details:
After full factory reset the default volume is something insensible in
the Jan 7 version. No other fixes yet.
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Latest Feb. 13 firmware details:
After full factory reset the default volume is something insensible in
the Jan 7 version. No other fixes yet.
Can you be more specific about the change you are talking about?
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All connectivity advice greatly appreciated .
TVM.
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Well...I have the DC here but have run into problems. I tried using my current setup which is a 2.1 system with the sub connected off the speaker taps of my integrated amp. I ran the measurements and was given the before/after view. However, when I try playing music I get distortion, phase issues etc. I went back to my current dac and got everything playing correctly again, so the amp and speakers are fine. Any ideas as to what I've done wrong? Will I need to connect the amp balanced and the sub unbalanced? I have some xlr to rca converters but will need to purchase interconnects with a female end.
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Well...I have the DC here but have run into problems. I tried using my current setup which is a 2.1 system with the sub connected off the speaker taps of my integrated amp. I ran the measurements and was given the before/after view. However, when I try playing music I get distortion, phase issues etc. I went back to my current dac and got everything playing correctly again, so the amp and speakers are fine. Any ideas as to what I've done wrong? Will I need to connect the amp balanced and the sub unbalanced? I have some xlr to rca converters but will need to purchase interconnects with a female end.
Where is the DC placed in the system?
Anything plugged into the DC?
Output from DC?
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I'm using the USB output of my computer to the USB input of the DC. Then analogue out to the integrated amp.
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Hmmm...
When you ran the calibration did you get sound from the speakers?
Which calibration did you use Typical or Advanced?
Are you using the volume control on the DC or the Integrated?
Which input on the integrated ?
What is your integrated?
You may be trying to run to many volts through the input on the integrated and over driving it. (?)
I know this is a lot of questions and some are pedestrian, but they might by helpful.
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Try this, Turn the volume on the DC down to 0 (no sound) , turn the volume on your integrated up to a point where you would normally listen.
Then slowly turn up the volume on the DC until you have what you can hear as normal loudness. Leave the DC in that position and use the integrated's volume control for loudness control.
This might cure your issue.
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While you were typing those responses I was up in my room trying the volume. When I ran the Typical 2.0 calibration I did get sound. I left the room and listened from behind a closed door. My integrated is the Doge 5 from Pacific Valve and I'm using the same input I normally use...just left the interconnects where they were. When I tried it again this time (didn't change anything to do with volume at first), it sounded much better...no more phase issues. But it doesn't get too far into a song before it starts breaking up. In an old setup I had, my dac had too high an output voltage for the integrated I had at the time and I would get clipping. This doesn't sound the same but maybe it's clipping. I don't know why it sounded better this time though. I tried reducing volume but it didn't seem to have any effect on the break up. I don't think I have the latest version of the firmware because I'm not seeing some of the menus that the online owners manual has. I'm also having trouble getting to the main menu. Many times I'll get jibberish. Many times when I cycle through the inputs, the USB is grayed out. Maybe the unit is defective?
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What is the sample rate of the music you a running through the USB input?
Perhaps the there is a mismatch in the sample rates?
Is this a new 2012/2013 or used unit?
You can go to Dspeaker and upload the latest firmware, that might help.
Are you able to bypass the preamp section of your integrated and use it as a straight 2 channel amp?
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The music I was using was 16/44. It must be a used unit since it's a loaner from Tweek Geek for in home auditions. I was thinking uploading the latest firmware would be a good idea too, but I'm going to call tomorrow and make sure he's okay with me doing that. Thanks for your help!
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Oops, missed your last question...no I can't bypass preamp section.
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Your welcome cremar...have the Tweek Geek do the firmware updates...He will have the DC and will see if there are any issues not related to the firm ware.
The DC is so new and there is a learning curve to using it's features.
I spoke with the US distributor a while back and he is trying to get some tutorials on Youtube.
Do a search maybe there are a few.
Chris
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I have it working!!! I went into mpod (music player for my Vortexbox based computer) and turned down the volume...breakup is gone. Unfortunately now it's not bit perfect. The input sensitivity is set to low on this unit. Will the firmware fix this? Oh no...the break up is back. :(
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Driving you crazy? :x
I'm sure there is some kind of a fix in the settings menu.
I use mine with a CD transport and as a preamp to my amp and subs no USB yet.
Do you have a CDP, CDT, or DVD that you can spin a CD with and use either the optical or analog input?
If so give it a try and see how things go. :D
Chris
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I'm actually feeling a little better than I was earlier...hopefully the firmware update will fix this problem. At this point, there doesn't seem to be a setting that I can adjust...I've been through the menus over and over again. I do have a CDP...I'll give that a try!
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The DC likes my CD player much more than my computer. No problems with the CD player at all.
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Can you be more specific about the change you are talking about?
Thats all I got from them...
Update: Feb 20.
■Important notice: If you are using an earlier beta firmware from 2013, please update to the latest release. Performing a factory reset in some of the earlier versions may set the volume level to a very high setting. This behavior should now be fixed.
■Improved USB compatibility with Macintosh computers
■Channel delay dialog improvement; delay values can now be changed permanently without performing full room calibration
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I have it working!!! I went into mpod (music player for my Vortexbox based computer) and turned down the volume...breakup is gone. Unfortunately now it's not bit perfect. The input sensitivity is set to low on this unit. Will the firmware fix this? Oh no...the break up is back. :(
How old is the firmware on your device? Even relatively old ones should already be corrected for this:
May 30 2012
■Volume adjustment in USB mode no longer interrupts the audio
■Adjusting volume from computer in USB mode no longer causes glitches in audio
■Input overdrive warning added
■New translations: Swedish, Dutch, German
■Multi-point calibration was not always enabled after the primary calibration; should be better now
■Full factory reset now clears all settings (volume, number of profiles etc)
■Added manual channel balance adjustment
■Added input volume trim: adjust the relative volume of S/PDIF and analog inputs
■Default input sensitivity changed to "low" for better compatibility
■Added user-adjustable input sensitivity: better support for "hot" audio sources (DACs etc)
■Fixed rare audio glitch with certain digital audio sources
■Left/right arrow keys can now be used to switch active input
■More visible indication of bypass mode
■Miscellaneous small fixes
Apr 19 2012 R3
■Analog input sensitivity increased (from 1.6V to 3.25V with RCA; from 1.3V to 2.6V with XLR). Fixes analog incompatibility with certain "hot" audio sources (DACs etc) that output at excessively high voltages.
■Improved digital compatibility with certain devices (in rare occasions there was a possibility of audible glitches)
■Fixed GUI slowdown when entering the menu from USB mode
The 2013 model has even greater input sensitivities:
Analog specifications (2013 revision)
■Dynamic Range: > 108dB
■Volume Control Steps: 0.5dB
■Input Sensitivity XLR: 3.9/7.9 Vrms, RCA: 2.5/5.0 Vrms
■Output Voltage Unbalanced RCA: 7.2 V(RMS) max
■Output Voltage Balanced XLR: 14.4 V(RMS) max
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The DC likes my CD player much more than my computer. No problems with the CD player at all.
OK,
Did you use the Analog or SPDIF out from your CDP?
If you tried both outputs to the subsequent inputs on the DC, and got good results, than it looks like we have narrowed it down to the USB input.
So there must be something going on with the USB inter-phase.
1) If possible try a different source for the USB input.
2) Download the latest firmware.
3) Try a different USB cable.
Since this is a demo unit, there may also be damage to the USB connectors on the DC.(?)
Chris
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Updating the firmware did the trick. All the menu items are there now and I have music. :P
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Awesome :thumb:
Enjoy 8)
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Yup, I figured it must have had the original firmware, given that by May last year all input sensitivity issues were handled in updates. See my list on the other page.
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Many thanks.
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Chris,
You mentioned earlier that you found that using battery power helped with a hardness to the sound of the DC. How much of an improvement did it make? I am finding the sound a little hard or edgy too, and am wondering if something like the Pyramid battery mentioned earlier in this thread would take it far enough in the opposite direction.
Thanks,
Regan
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Regan,
The Pyramid PSU's are a DC power supply and are not battery, you can read about then here:
http://radioproshop.com/pyramid-ps/powersupply.htm
I haven't used one so I can't comment on what improvements might be gained. I have read a lot about the King Rex 12v Linear supply and the Paul Hynes SR Power supplies, but there too I can't comment since I haven't tried either one yet.
I had my BPS prior to buying the Dual Core and used it for my CD transport. When I got the Dual Core I realized that it was 12v and gave the BPS a try. The sound stage opened up a bit and instruments sounded more "natural" than by using the supplied ps. My wife and a couple of friends noticed the difference right away. I fired up the system and we listened to a few tunes using the supplied ps, then I switched the BPS into the system without telling anyone what I had done and asked, Whaddya think? Everyone agreed that whatever I had done that the sound quality had greatly improved.
Transport, MSB Digital Director, and Dual Core are all on the Battery Power Supply.
More pics of the BPS are in my gallery.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68211)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76361)
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I don't know why I thought the Pyramid was a BPS. Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's probably all I can afford to try right now. I'll have to save up for a Paul Hynes or maybe a RWA. I tried going back to my Wadia 121 dac tonight and wondered how I ever listened this way. The bass was just droning on...not the Wadia but my room. It's hard to listen to uncorrected bass now.
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It's hard to listen to uncorrected bass now.
So true!
I was at a Hifi and Video store about a month ago to look at a new TV.
They had a 2 channel room, it was a slow day, so the sales guy spun some vinyl for me.
Good highs, very good mid range, but flabby undefined bass.
I told him about the Dual Core, said he hadn't heard of it, and began to remark on the virtues of his speakers, electronics, TT, cartridge, cables.... :roll:
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Hey y'all, so I'm picking up a second hand Dual Core from an AC member tomorrow, just wanted to check in on two things:
1. I am currently re-ripping CDs to my new Mac Mini, and have been going Apple Lossless (ALAC), and some AIFF. Will I be able to play these through both digital inputs of the DC? I think I read that there was something about only certain formats being compatible with it, perhaps before one of the firmware updates. Sure hope I'm not limited in this way. If so, I'll have to run it between my preamp and my amp, but would prefer to use it as a DAC.
2. Not sure if the guy I'm buying from has updated to the latest firmware (sent him a PM not long about it, but haven't heard back yet). If he hasn't, how would this Mac user go about doing that (re: Only PCs being able to update the firmware)?
Pretty psyched to get this into my system!
TIA, dudes! :thumb:
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Neekomax,
Welcome to the club!
I'm a PC guy and can't help you, but if you contact Tim Ryan at Simplifi Audio, he can answer your Mac questions.
Chris
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Thanks Rodge!
So, the seller responded and said he updated the firmware for me, and that the volume was set at -50 db in case I wanted to use it as a preamp. Anyone know what that means, maybe just that I should be aware that the volume is turned all the way down?
No one has any idea about ALAC & AIFF files through the digital inputs?
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Thanks Rodge!
So, the seller responded and said he updated the firmware for me, and that the volume was set at -50 db in case I wanted to use it as a preamp. Anyone know what that means, maybe just that I should be aware that the volume is turned all the way down?
That would be my guess.
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I have had no probs with any file types over digital. I will try to confirm AIFF and ALAC today
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Thanks guys.
Really excited. Ever since I got into hifi, I've been puzzled at the seeming lack of quality EQ in the digital domain made for home audio; coming from the pro world, where you EQ everything basically. Very interested to hear what the Dual Core does in my small room.
Now if only had the day off tomorrow to play with it! :?
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U will LUV it!
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I know that it is not really what the DSpeaker is made for, but can you use it the record to the computer the analog or digital inputs or is the USB only able to send and not receive? This connection is not shown on their connection diagram.
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So I thought I'd check in with the Dual Core crowd and report on my results with my newly acquired (though used) unit.
First, I've had some technical problems with the digital inputs. The optical S/PDIF input needs special handling in that I have to jiggle the cable a bit to get sound. Once it's in place, it works, but it's a bit annoying. It is the input I'm using for the moment, however. Because...
I have a high pitched, low volume, constant squeal when using the USB input from my Mac Mini. You hear it pretty well when I crank the gain on my 100 watt amp to 12:00 or higher (gets louder obviously). So I've abandoned the USB for now. I have been in touch with the distributor about these issues, so hopefully they'll be able to help.
Meanwhile, I'm carrying on and using it as my DAC and signal processor. I ran the basic calibration the other night, and this was the result:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78030)
As the user manual warns, once corrected, one may perceive a lack of bass. Did I ever! I guess I've become very accustomed to my speakers with their dual active subs overloading my room with bass. So I've set the house curve pretty high on most music, and I turned up the gain on the subs in my SAM 1s from about 12:00 to 1:30 or so to compensate. I may turn them a bit more, we'll see. I'll run a room response analysis first to get a handle on just how much boost I'm actually applying. From what I gather, these compensations should fairly equally boost the bass, instead of just having certain arbitrary frequencies super hot as a result of room modes, which is what I was hearing before the DC was in my system.
Aside from the digital input issues, it sounds really great as a DAC though, and is my first hi-rez capable piece of gear. I've downloaded a few 24/96 tracks and have started listening to those through Audirvana +. Very nice. I'd like to try is between my Decco preamp and my Acurus amp with the analog ins/outs as well, see what difference that makes, but I will lose the hi rez capability, so I'm keeping like this for now.
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I also have a finicky optical input. Now that you have those measurements and the mic, you can also play around with speaker placement etc to get rid of that big dip.
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I also have a finicky optical input. Now that you have those measurements and the mic, you can also play around with speaker placement etc to get rid of that big dip.
Huh, interesting to know I'm not the only one with this type of issue.
Good thought on trying to get rid of the dip around 80 Hz, but I don't have much flexibility with speaker placement in my small room. What exactly would you try? I think maybe adding a third sub might be the most effective at fixing that, no?
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A third sub might work, if speaker and/or sub repositioning isnt' much of an option. Not sure how much working with room treatments or rearranging other parts of the room may also help with a dip like that. The Dual Core can try to bump up that dip a little bit, but read the manual on that. They discourage against too much, for very sound reasons IIRC.
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if you all dont mind a stupid question. but is dual core only optimal if you are running subs? Ive recently moved into a small listening room and using the sub is problematic....but bass in general sucks in this room....thanks
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I have a high pitched, low volume, constant squeal when using the USB input from my Mac Mini. You hear it pretty well when I crank the gain on my 100 watt amp to 12:00 or higher (gets louder obviously). So I've abandoned the USB for now. I have been in touch with the distributor about these issues, so hopefully they'll be able to help.
Your Dual Core may need the February firmware update. I was having problems with the USB input, but the February update fixed it.
[url]http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core/firmware-update.shtml/url]
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if you all dont mind a stupid question. but is dual core only optimal if you are running subs? Ive recently moved into a small listening room and using the sub is problematic....but bass in general sucks in this room....thanks
I don't think that's a stupid question. I believe that, since one of the correction modes is 2.0 (and shows just a pair of floorstanders as icon), the Dual Core will work without any subs running. This is the mode I'm using mine in. It corrects regardless of the drivers and enclosures at play.
I don't technically have any subs either, as my speakers have them built into the enclosures, so you could look at it either way, I suppose.
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Your Dual Core may need the February firmware update. I was having problems with the USB input, but the February update fixed it.
[url]http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core/firmware-update.shtml/url]
Thanks. The guy who sold it to me updated the firmware to the February version before I took possession, I made sure of it.
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Works great without subs. No worries there.
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thanks everyone on this holiday for answering my question so quickly. I forgot to ask one more thing: can you use the dual core as a dac with room room correction, but NOT as a pre-amp. I have a couple of pre amps here that i like...once again thanks. this sounds like a very interesting product for those with problematic rooms.
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No problem, mate. The answer is yes, you can go digital into the DC, then analog out to a preamp. I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure that's fine. Not sure whether you'd set the gain out to max or what, but somebody else can probably answer that.
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I use it as just a DAC and for DSP. With no attenuation. The Dual Core is at its weakest as a preamp.
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I use it as just a DAC and for DSP. With no attenuation. The Dual Core is at its weakest as a preamp.
Hmm, maybe I'll try that config into my Peachtree Audio Decco (currently not being used). Max volume on the DC, then?
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yes, max out the gain.
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The Dual Core is at its weakest as a preamp.
:scratch:
Using mine as a preamp and it sounds great.
The Dual Core has helped to simplify my system down to just a few key components, which is why I gave it a try.
The only drawback, which isn't an issue for me, is the lack of Analog Inputs.
This can be remedied by the use of a multiple input switch box, such as the one Decware sells.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/rotary.htm
Neekomax,
Which calibration are you using Typical or Advanced?
Chris
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Hey Chris,
Only did the typical calibration so far. Which are you running? I was thinking of trying a full spectrum correction (that's possible, right?) just to see what it would do. Is that done through advanced?
Neeko
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Automatic DSP goes up to only 500Hz. Above that it is a manual affair, using the (very versatile) EQ feature.
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Automatic DSP goes up to only 500Hz. Above that it is a manual affair, using the (very versatile) EQ feature.
Ah, ok. But you can check the room response full spectrum to help you apply eq, right?
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Oh yes, any scan will show the full room response IIRC. Think you just need to zoom out or scroll or something like that to see the full sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz.
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Oh yes, any scan will show the full room response IIRC. Think you just need to zoom out or scroll or something like that to see the full sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz.
Right on. Will check it out.
I just plugged the DSPeaker analog out into the Aux 1 input of my Peachtree Decco (instead of going straight into my Acurus amp as I had configured previously, so now the DC is DAC/DSP, the Decco is preamp.
Best sound yet! The tube buffer in the Decco adds that touch of smooth warmth, and together with the detail and resolution of the DC as DAC, the corrected bass, and the ss power of the Acurus... Aw yeah. THIS is what I was hoping for when I threw down for the DC. This is great. :icon_lol:
F*#@ yeah!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78065)
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Can someone tell me how I can view the entire frequency spectrum in 'Measurements'? The cursor moves off of the screen, but I can't get the screen to follow it. :scratch:
I'm sure tis something super obvious...
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Automatic DSP goes up to only 500Hz. Above that it is a manual affair, using the (very versatile) EQ feature.
No, just to 150hz...manual to 500.
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Can someone tell me how I can view the entire frequency spectrum in 'Measurements'? The cursor moves off of the screen, but I can't get the screen to follow it. :scratch:
I'm sure tis something super obvious...
I'm trying to do this from memory since mine has been in it's box since late Oct.
If you go to Measurement, I think you can select full or set the parameters to 20/20.
Again it's been a while so go easy on on me if not right.
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To the poster who was concerned about a dip at about 80Hz:
Unless you can really move your speakers around (and you said you can't) I wouldn't worry too much about that dip. Most rooms will have that, mine does too. It does not seem to rest from the overall bass quality, perhaps because it's fairly narrow. I would go easy on the house curve: too much boost there and it will tend to thicken the low frequency presentation and will negatively affect the DC headroom.
Enjoy!
Guido F.
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Right on. Will check it out.
I just plugged the DSPeaker analog out into the Aux 1 input of my Peachtree Decco (instead of going straight into my Acurus amp as I had configured previously, so now the DC is DAC/DSP, the Decco is preamp.
Best sound yet! The tube buffer in the Decco adds that touch of smooth warmth, and together with the detail and resolution of the DC as DAC, the corrected bass, and the ss power of the Acurus... Aw yeah. THIS is what I was hoping for when I threw down for the DC. This is great. :icon_lol:
F*#@ yeah!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78065)
Although my preamp is SS and I use it in passive mode, my experience is similar to yours. Fuller and more dynamic sound than when I ran the DC straight into my amp. To my surprise, I found that I get the most transparent presentation when I set the preamp volume to max and use the DC to control volume. You may want to try that and compare.
Best regards,
Guido F.
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Hey so Danny Richie had this to say, wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this:
Those devices are really neat, but they only work for one spot in the room. Move your mic over and you'll have to start all over again. And most don't realize that you have to correct for one speaker at a time. When both speakers are played at once with the mono test tones then you wind up correcting for cancellations and peaks that are actually caused by the time arrival effects of the two speakers and not the room. Then those effects go away with non-mono signals.
You also can't really fix a wall reflection by turning it down in that area where it has increase amplitude. The reflection is still there. And your adjustments have shifted the sound stage artificially. The time delay from the reflection is thus un-effected.
And while the DAC's in those devices are often capable of playing high res files they are often in entry level to mid-fi level DAC at best.
Corrections below 200Hz though do have their place and are very useful. If it is handled in the digital domain only as per each channel and an higher quality outboard DAC is used, then that is a different story.
My question is, does the DC allow you to correct one channel at a time? Didn't really understand everything he said about reflections and time arrival and whatnot...
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he DC is a high enuff quality Dac and you are only encouraged to correct up to 250hz max. You can also do a 5 mic position auto correction.
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Hey so Danny Richie had this to say, wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this:
My question is, does the DC allow you to correct one channel at a time? Didn't really understand everything he said about reflections and time arrival and whatnot...
The DAC in the DC is very transparent. Better than the Cambridge Audio 840-C I used to have in the main system. The typical correction the DC is designed to achieve is in the frequency range where the scheme it employs is most effective.
Guido F.
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No, just to 150hz...manual to 500.
IIRC, default correction to 150 Hz, advanced auto can be up to 500 Hz and manual anywhere.
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Has anyone been able to experiment with upgrading the power supply? I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the LPS from MCRU http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supply/593-linear-power-supply-for-dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dual-core-dac-.html (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supply/593-linear-power-supply-for-dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dual-core-dac-.html), but was wondering if there might be something better. Chris, I know you have a BPS that works well...do you know of anyone willing to put something like it together for others who may be interested?
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Has anyone been able to experiment with upgrading the power supply? I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the LPS from MCRU http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supply/593-linear-power-supply-for-dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dual-core-dac-.html (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supply/593-linear-power-supply-for-dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dual-core-dac-.html), but was wondering if there might be something better. Chris, I know you have a BPS that works well...do you know of anyone willing to put something like it together for others who may be interested?
My CIAudio PS is on its way. Will report back after I've had a chance to listen.
Guido F.
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My CIAudio PS is on its way. Will report back after I've had a chance to listen.
Guido F.
Look forward to your impressions. I am also very curious how the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning might work with the Dual Core.
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And whic of the CI Audio Power supplies did you get?
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Has anyone been able to experiment with upgrading the power supply? I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the LPS from MCRU http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supply/593-linear-power-supply-for-dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dual-core-dac-.html (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supply/593-linear-power-supply-for-dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dual-core-dac-.html), but was wondering if there might be something better. Chris, I know you have a BPS that works well...do you know of anyone willing to put something like it together for others who may be interested?
I'll look into it.
The guy who built mine has moved on to custom Harley engine rebuilding.
He is a Mercedes mechanic and is a master with engines.
Perhaps I could twist his arm into making some...Stay tuned...
Chris
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Thanks Chris!
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Yes, let us know about that.
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Will do!
I'll call him tomorrow and report back.
Chris
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And whic of the CI Audio Power supplies did you get?
Dusty made one special order for 12V - DC.
Guido F.
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Dusty made one special order for 12V - DC.
Guido F.
Good stuff. Look forward to your report on it.
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Hey so Danny Richie had this to say, wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this:
My question is, does the DC allow you to correct one channel at a time? Didn't really understand everything he said about reflections and time arrival and whatnot...
I think he is right for the most part, although I am not sure why he thinks correction below 200hz should only be handled in the digital domain. Maybe the resulting eq would be more precise I don't know.
From everything I have read the DC does not measure one sub at a time. In fact in their literature they seem to think measuring all subs at once is the way to go even with the lowly 8033c :nono:. When i measure my room with REW I measure 1 channel at a time. When I measure both channels at once I get a frequency response chart that simply doesn't jive with what I am hearing when I play real music (pretty much what Danny was saying). I own one 8033C and it works wonderfully if used in on one sub but causes a big null when I try to use it for two. I got another 8033 on the way and that should eliminate that issue.
I do think Danny is partially wrong about devices like the anti-mode only working for one spot in the room. It really depends upon how the user employs them. If you treat your room first to get rid of the heavy bass modes and then employ these devices throughout your room to get rid of remaining modes then the positive effects of that will be heard throughout the room even though you are only measuring from one spot. I measured several listening spots in my room after using a 8033c on one of my subs and the overall bass from my system had a flatter frequency response and a much better looking waterfall plot.
I think it would be most beneficial to treat these devices like a electronic acoustical room treatment. The focus should be on custom elimination of room bass modes. Attach one of these to a particular sub and treat the two of them as one unit. Move that sub to a problem corner, then measure and let it eliminate some modes. Buy another device and repeat. While you are measuring from only one spot the positive effects will be heard throughout the room in the same way the effects of each additional passive bass trap are heard. I am in the middle of doing this now with some cheap 10 inch emotiva subs. I will try to post some results after I get my second 8033c if work doesn't interfere too much.
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I think he is right for the most part, although I am not sure why he thinks correction below 200hz should only be handled in the digital domain. Maybe the resulting eq would be more precise I don't know.
From everything I have read the DC does not measure one sub at a time. In fact in their literature they seem to think measuring all subs at once is the way to go even with the lowly 8033c :nono:. When i measure my room with REW I measure 1 channel at a time. When I measure both channels at once I get a frequency response chart that simply doesn't jive with what I am hearing when I play real music (pretty much what Danny was saying). I own one 8033C and it works wonderfully if used in on one sub but causes a big null when I try to use it for two. I got another 8033 on the way and that should eliminate that issue.
I do think Danny is partially wrong about devices like the anti-mode only working for one spot in the room. It really depends upon how the user employs them. If you treat your room first to get rid of the heavy bass modes and then employ these devices throughout your room to get rid of remaining modes then the positive effects of that will be heard throughout the room even though you are only measuring from one spot. I measured several listening spots in my room after using a 8033c on one of my subs and the overall bass from my system had a flatter frequency response and a much better looking waterfall plot.
I think it would be most beneficial to treat these devices like a electronic acoustical room treatment. The focus should be on custom elimination of room bass modes. Attach one of these to a particular sub and treat the two of them as one unit. Move that sub to a problem corner, then measure and let it eliminate some modes. Buy another device and repeat. While you are measuring from only one spot the positive effects will be heard throughout the room in the same way the effects of each additional passive bass trap are heard. I am in the middle of doing this now with some cheap 10 inch emotiva subs. I will try to post some results after I get my second 8033c if work doesn't interfere too much.
THANK YOU very much for addressing my question. My own ears seem to confirm what you're saying about the correction creating nulls when used on two bass sources. So I am going to try just using the parametric eqs along with REW measurements so that I can flatten out modes more judiciously by hand, as it were. I am also going to try and do a calibration with only one bass source playing, just to hear what result that gives when applied to both channels, so as to eliminate the time arrival factor that Danny mentioned. I know it won't be a super accurate correction, but it might be a better starting point that I can tweak with the parametric eq, rather than correcting the overcorrection caused by a stereo calibration.
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I am just going through possible setups with the Dual Core and was wondering what others were doing about the drop in low end response following calibration?
I'm experiencing a 6-8dB lowering of the bass range (below around 200Hz) following the typical calibration. When using my main speaker only, it sounds like when you have one speaker out of phase from the other. The is very little low end. I have been try to use the House Curve to increase the low end to make things listenable. I'm creating more questions then I have answers for. I'm not feeling the love so many of you are expressing. Any ideas would be welcomed.
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I am just going through possible setups with the Dual Core and was wondering what others were doing about the drop in low end response following calibration?
I'm experiencing a 6-8dB lowering of the bass range (below around 200Hz) following the typical calibration. When using my main speaker only, it sounds like when you have one speaker out of phase from the other. The is very little low end. I have been try to use the House Curve to increase the low end to make things listenable. I'm creating more questions then I have answers for. I'm not feeling the love so many of you are expressing. Any ideas would be welcomed.
I don't have the info in front of me, but I recall as of the Feb 20 2013 firmware update there is the provision for an overall bass level adustment (not a house curve). I'm going from memory, but check around and don't give up. :thumb:
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THANK YOU very much for addressing my question. My own ears seem to confirm what you're saying about the correction creating nulls when used on two bass sources. So I am going to try just using the parametric eqs along with REW measurements so that I can flatten out modes more judiciously by hand, as it were. I am also going to try and do a calibration with only one bass source playing, just to hear what result that gives when applied to both channels, so as to eliminate the time arrival factor that Danny mentioned. I know it won't be a super accurate correction, but it might be a better starting point that I can tweak with the parametric eq, rather than correcting the overcorrection caused by a stereo calibration.
I am confused. Why not use the DSP as a starting point and then apply the EQ on top of that? Anyway there are 4 settings you can save so easy to try a few approaches and see what works best.
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I am just going through possible setups with the Dual Core and was wondering what others were doing about the drop in low end response following calibration?
I'm experiencing a 6-8dB lowering of the bass range (below around 200Hz) following the typical calibration. When using my main speaker only, it sounds like when you have one speaker out of phase from the other. The is very little low end. I have been try to use the House Curve to increase the low end to make things listenable. I'm creating more questions then I have answers for. I'm not feeling the love so many of you are expressing. Any ideas would be welcomed.
Well now you know that you don't prefer a flat frequency response. Easy enough to boost the bass by the 6-8 dB you like. But running the DSP and then boosting will give you the bass levels you like and the benefits of DSP.
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Roscoe, I do like the flat bass response sound over the unprocessed bass sound. It is the level, as compared to the mid-range, that is the issue. After the typical calibration the 25Hz to 200Hz range is dropped 6-8dB below the mid-range in my system. That is the issue that I was asking about. I'm thinking there must be someone who has worked on this drop in level and could share their settings for the house curve that sounds best in their system.
I'm find it a difficult to A/B, due to the house curve having to be reset to flat as an additional step each time I compare the calibrated to the non-calibrated. Also, the change in volume that is automatically done by the DC whenever the house curve is applied is yet another complication to the comparison.
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I am just going through possible setups with the Dual Core and was wondering what others were doing about the drop in low end response following calibration?
I'm experiencing a 6-8dB lowering of the bass range (below around 200Hz) following the typical calibration. When using my main speaker only, it sounds like when you have one speaker out of phase from the other. The is very little low end. I have been try to use the House Curve to increase the low end to make things listenable. I'm creating more questions then I have answers for. I'm not feeling the love so many of you are expressing. Any ideas would be welcomed.
Is the 6-8dB drop referred to your "before calibration" room response or is it referred to an ideal flat response?
Also, what is the shape of the curve below 200Hz "after calibration"? And the full range response?
To better assess what's actually happening, it might be helpful if you could post the graphs of your measurements.
It might also help to know something about your speakers and room.
Regards,
Guido F.
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Guidof, The 6-8dB is in relation to the after-calibration response graph, using the mid-range as "0dB". The after calibration graph below 200Hz bass range is quite flat, just 6-8dB below the mid-range. I'll post some pictures of the screen soon. I am currently only trying the AMDC as a processor (digital only). I plan to move on to use it as a DAC, and then a preamp.
My system is: Squeezebox Touch (digital) -> AMDC (digital) -> Emotiva XDA-1(analog) -> Spectral DMC-6 -> Parasound Halo A-21 -> Magnepan 3.6R + Boston Acoustics PV-1000 sub. The AMDC would replace the XDA-1 & the DMC-6, if I keep it
My room is 37' X 15' X 8.5'. I listen near-field (~9'), 3.6R out ~6' from the short front wall, sub center between the Maggies. I preferred no sub for music, before the AMDC, now I like the sub on for music, if I could only get the level of the bass range to be in line with the mids.
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My room is 37' X 15' X 8.5'. I listen near-field (~9'), 3.6R out ~6' from the short front wall, sub center between the Maggies.
Sparky, You have a large room.
Try moving the sub to the nearest corner and turning up the gain on the sub amp.
Then do a calibration and see if it helps your bass response.
I had my two subs next to my monitors and by moving them to the corners and turning up the sub amp worked well for my room.
Chris
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Guidof, The 6-8dB is in relation to the after-calibration response graph, using the mid-range as "0dB". The after calibration graph below 200Hz bass range is quite flat, just 6-8dB below the mid-range. I'll post some pictures of the screen soon. I am currently only trying the AMDC as a processor (digital only). I plan to move on to use it as a DAC, and then a preamp.
My system is: Squeezebox Touch (digital) -> AMDC (digital) -> Emotiva XDA-1(analog) -> Spectral DMC-6 -> Parasound Halo A-21 -> Magnepan 3.6R + Boston Acoustics PV-1000 sub. The AMDC would replace the XDA-1 & the DMC-6, if I keep it
My room is 37' X 15' X 8.5'. I listen near-field (~9'), 3.6R out ~6' from the short front wall, sub center between the Maggies. I preferred no sub for music, before the AMDC, now I like the sub on for music, if I could only get the level of the bass range to be in line with the mids.
This seems definitely odd. It would be interesting to see your room response curves (full frequency range 20Hz to 20kHz). If the situation is as I think you describe it, the only cause that may fit the picture might be a house curve accidentally set for a 6dB cut. This seems very unlikely, though worth double checking perhaps (I know, I'm grasping at straws here). Right after calibration, however, house and tilt curves, as all EQ bands, are set to "disabled" so the cut would not be apparent until the house curve is manually enabled.
Have you tried perhaps redoing the calibration to see if you get the same odd cut? Any chance there is some low frequency background noise (heating or air conditioning fans) interfering with the calibration process?
Do post your graphs, if possible. Better if downloaded into your PC and displayed in REW or similar. The Dual Core screen is really too small to be able to make much sense when displaying the whole frequency range.
Regards,
Guido F.
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Hello again. I have not had a chance to try any of the suggestions, but I do have some pictures of the DC screen. Sorry for the blurry pictures.
First is the before and after(w/sub). The suck out on the right side of the picture is the dipolar cancellation that corresponds with the Maggies distance to the front wall.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78662)
The dip in the 28Hz-42Hz range is just sub-woofer crossover/level matching. I am NOT addressing that in this discussion.
In the following pictures I have set the cursor to positions that illustrate levels I am addressing. You will note ~8dB drop in the corrected bass range, below 200Hz.
Next is the after cal curve with the cursor at 101Hz, note -8.4dB level.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78664)
Now the same curve, cursor at 196Hz, note -0.1dB, cursor is at the extreme right edge of screen
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78665)
Thanks for your input. I will be listening/adjusting ASAP.
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I would try to expand the range corrected by the DSP. The dip in dB overall, may be due to the big node dip around the where the DSP ends in its stock settings. You can consult the manual to see how to expand the DSP range out to up to 500Hz (or so, forget the exact limit).
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Sparky, other bros,
This is my post from when I first brought mine home a week and a half ago, and ran the basic calibration. Look familiar?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78668)
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Chris, I know you have a BPS that works well...do you know of anyone willing to put something like it together for others who may be interested?
Here is the email of the guy who made my 12v battery power supply: bcengines@comcast.net
His name is Brian and said that contacting him directly would be best to figure out each persons need.
Chris
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Hi sparky62:
Thanks for posting the before/after graphs. If I understand it correctly, these show a drop of about 8dB relative to a one point measurement (to the extreme right of the screen). This does not necessarily mean the bass relative to the midrange is also down by the same amount. A graph of the full frequency range would better identify if and were there is a drop. It would perhaps clear things up if you could dump your full frequency measurement into your PC and import it into REW, so that it can be saved as a .jpg file and then inserted in a post. That would give us a really good idea of what the overall response is. As mentioned earlier, the small size of the DC screen makes it really hard to figure things out, especially when dealing with the full frequency range.
Regards,
Guido F.
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I have a question: If I have a calibration set in Profile A, do I simply need to select Profile B, back out, and do a new calibration in order to have a second correction to compare to the first afterwards?
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I have a question: If I have a calibration set in Profile A, do I simply need to select Profile B, back out, and do a new calibration in order to have a second correction to compare to the first afterwards?
Yes, you can do it that way.
When I got mine mostly dialed in on Profile A, I went to the other Profiles and picked slightly different levels to calibrate and compare.
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I have a question: If I have a calibration set in Profile A, do I simply need to select Profile B, back out, and do a new calibration in order to have a second correction to compare to the first afterwards?
It depends on what you intend to compare. If you want to compare two calibrations (e.g., by calibrating for different positions of the mike), that would be the way to do it. But if you merely wish to add an additional calibration spot, you don't need a profile, just do a multi-point calibration.
If, on the other hand, you wish to compare different settings of house and tilt curves or of the parametric EQ, then you only need to calibrate once. Each newly created profile will automatically contain the original calibration set in profile A but will have whatever new EQ settings you give it.
Regards,
Guido F.
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Guidof, Your suggestion about increasing the frequency of correction above 200Hz helped. I ran a calibration up to 500Hz and the transition is less sever.
In this picture, the response curve shows a bit flatter line on either side of the null at ~170Hz.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78726)
Here is a full 20-20k curve. Boy is that ugly!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78727)
I don't consider this situation to be solved, but a long with House Curve & Bass level it is a step in the right direction. Regarding loading the DC screens into a PC, I no longer have a laptop (iPad), so I will have to unhook the DC from my listening room and tote it up two flights to my desktop. I will try that soon.
On a separate (non-bass) note. I had noticed a loss of sound stage width and air when using the DC, compared to the pre-DC system sound. I also read a couple of comments at the end of the Absolute Sound review that jived with what I was hearing. I then rigged up an experiment on my Maggies as follows. I placed one of my 2'X4' on-wall sound panels behind each Maggie on milk crates and leaned them against the back of each speaker. I then ran a calibration for this setup. Following cal I returned the set up to normal. In essence I was trying to "trick" the DC into hearing (mostly) the front radiation of the Maggies. I now had two profiles to compare and I prefer the "tricked" profile. The sound stage has returned to almost the width it had. The DC must process the full spectrum and work to control the room decay that, in the case of panel speakers, is necessary for the stereo presentation.
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I guess no one noticed my (re) post of my original before/after graph. The reason I did so is that it looks a lot like sparky's in the way that the bass seems to have been pushed down at least 6 dbs overall in relation to the mids, which you can start to see on the right of the graph. My solution, since my speakers have active bass, is that that I did another calibration with gain on the subs down from about 12:00 (where I normally have them) to about 10:00. Then, after calibration, I have turned them back up to about 1:30. This has pretty much fixed the lack of bass post-correction, although I'm still not quite happy with the sound yet.
Perhaps the reason the DC does this is that, since it doesn't want to/can't boost the nulls, it cuts the peaks down to where the average response is down from the rest of the spectrum, but flat (isn).
Another question: When using advanced calibration, the 'compensation' setting sets the amount that the DC boosts the bass overall post correction (I suppose as a measure to address the aforementioned effect), correct?
Sparky, other bros,
This is my post from when I first brought mine home a week and a half ago, and ran the basic calibration. Look familiar?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78668)
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@sparky62: Your full frequency graph looks a lot worse than it is. I know it's a PITA to drag the DC to where your PC is, but I think that you'll see a much nicer curve on the big screen. Still, you do seem to have a bit of a dip in the bass, which maybe the result of the DC cutting down the peaks in the low frequency region and also a function of how your Maggies interact with your room.
If your setup allows, you may want to try alternative locations for your Maggies to compensate for the effect. For example, I found that by bringing my Martin-Logan SL3 dipoles 10" closer to each other, i achieved a much cleaner and more balanced bass rendition, to the point that I had to disable my house curve, previously set for a 2dB boost.
Best wishes for further fine-tuning!
Guido F.
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@ neekomax: As you also found, because the DC smoothes down the room modes and does not apply boosts it tends to cut the low frequencies, especially when a system would tend to roll off the bass a bit were it not for the presence of room modes. It seems to me that this effect is more pronounced with 2.0 setups than with 2.1 or 2.2, as one or two subs will fill up the range where the main speakers may (anechoically) roll off.
Personally, I found that repositioning my main speakers had a salutary effect in this regard (see my reply to sparky62). And my REL T1 sub is now set at only 4/40 of its gain and a 30Hz crossover.
Alas, now that I have reached a satisfying tonal balance, it turns out that in a couple of months we will move to a smaller house at the opposite end of the country, with a much smaller music room, so I'll have to start all over again! It's going to be quite a test for the dual Core!
Best,
Guido F.
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As promised, here are my impressions from substituting the AntiMode Dual Core's 9V AC wall wart with a 12V DC CIAudio power supply.
The overall impression is of the same order of magnitude and in the same direction as when I substituted a run of Audioquest Cinnamon (ahem) Ethernet* cable for the garden variety cable I was previously using, that is, somewhat greater clarity and refinement, with more detail, more airy and sweeter highs, better defined bass, and in general a presentation one step closer to the elusive goal of faithfully reproducing a live unamplified event. Also, timbres seem more accurate, which contributes to the overall sense of effortless presentation. And the signal to noise ratio seems better (blacker blacks).
Yes, the difference with using the wall wart is subtle, which perhaps suggest the standard PS is pretty good. But they are worthwhile. And of course, at $350, the CIAudio supply is about one third the cost of the Dual Core, so one would have to consider this before opting for the CIA. Personally, I'm satisfied that the improvement, in my system, justifies the cost.
*And of course, we all know that Ethernet cables cannot possibly affect sound quality. ;-)
Guido F.
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Guidof, Thanks for your impressions of the differences in power supply. I've been wondering about that since I first hooked up the AMDC.
I have been out of town helping my 93 year old father get ready to sell his house and move. Wait, that makes me really old. :icon_frown:
I have re-run my calibrations and I am happier with the upper limit set to 250Hz (from 500Hz). The biggest sound improvement I have found was using the Compensation to fill in the mid-bass to bass range. I learned to use the Compensation from a news letter in the AMDC box. I don't know if it is available on the Web.
Good luck with your move.
Jim
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Hi Jim, glad you found a setting that works best.
Yes, the CIA PS seems to have improved further as it has accumulated 'burn in' time. Very strange. It's the first time in more than 50 years of audiophilia that I detect any burn in improvements in any equipment.
We're not a whole lot younger than your dad, and like him, we're moving to be nearer our offsprings wo live in the SF Bay area. So I hope his move goes as smoothly as any can be.
We're only a couple of weeks away from our big move, so there is little time left to listen to any music before that moment when I will need to unhook everything. The horror! ;-)
Best regards,
Guido F.
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Guidof, Thanks for your impressions of the differences in power supply. I've been wondering about that since I first hooked up the AMDC.
I have been out of town helping my 93 year old father get ready to sell his house and move. Wait, that makes me really old. :icon_frown:
I have re-run my calibrations and I am happier with the upper limit set to 250Hz (from 500Hz). The biggest sound improvement I have found was using the Compensation to fill in the mid-bass to bass range. I learned to use the Compensation from a news letter in the AMDC box. I don't know if it is available on the Web.
Good luck with your move.
Jim
Can you scan and post the relevant section (bass fill in compensation) of that newsletter? Otherwise email me. I can PM the email addy.
Thanks
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Can you scan and post the relevant section (bass fill in compensation) of that newsletter? Otherwise email me. I can PM the email addy.
Thanks
+1 for a public post, so we can all benefit. :)
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Can you scan and post the relevant section (bass fill in compensation) of that newsletter? Otherwise email me. I can PM the email addy.
Thanks
Compensation is discussed in section 6, Advanced Calibration, page 24 of the online Dual Core manual. Also, section 4.7, Audio Settings, describes how to change compensation on the fly. Enjoy.
Regards,
Guido F.
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I have the news letter as a PDF file. I don't see a way to post a PDF. Anybody know? :banghead:
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Post it as a URL
Jim
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Medium Jim,
Thanks, but I need more hand holding then "post it as a URL".
Does AudioCircle have a hosting site or do I use one of the outside sites?
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Medium Jim,
Thanks, but I need more hand holding then "post it as a URL".
Does AudioCircle have a hosting site or do I use one of the outside sites?
Sparky:
Set the cursor in the dialog box where you want to post the link to the PDF file, then go up to the tool bar and above the emoticons you will see a button that has the world click on it and it will post the hypertext to insert the link, put the cursor right in the middle and then paste the link and it should work.
Jim
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Thanks Medium Jim,
Here is the link to the news letter. The Compensation section is IIRC on page 5.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7812COJE_ZnLVJJZ3djSHFrNVE/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7812COJE_ZnLVJJZ3djSHFrNVE/edit?usp=sharing)
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Thanks. Yes, the newsletter gives a nice description of setting compensation on the fly. For a more complete description of setting compensation as part of advanced calibration, see section 6 of the online Dual Core manual.
Guido F.
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With compensation it's worth noting that typical calibration already introduces some compensation. In my setup, a boost of 6dB, which I suspect is indeed a "typical" value for most systems after typical calibration. In my system, increasing the boost to 7dB has had a firming up effect on the bass range and, more notably, an increase in the three dimensionality and 'air' of the soundstage.
One has to keep in mind that increasing compensation has a negative effect on headroom, so going light on the throttle may be advisable here, as in any boost.
But definitely a setting worth experimenting with.
Guido F.
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One more thing about compensation: if my understanding is correct, in theory compensation should have the same effect as an equivalent house curve. However, in my subjective impression compensation introduces a much more satisfying correction of the entire bass and mid-bass region. Perhaps this is the result of a better choice of pivot point. Or the slope of the correction may be different (better?). Whatever the reason, I'm happier with a 1dB boost in compensation than I was with the same level of boost in a house curve, which I had ended up disabling.
And BTW, it's fascinating that a boost of just 1dB should have such an obvious effect on tonal balance.
Guido F.
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I have found the same to be true with regard to using Compensation. In my system, just a 1/2 dB step makes the difference. When you get it set "correctly" it makes everything gel. The House Curve just does not provide the same level of integration that the Compensation provides. Along with mic positioning, I have found this to be the thing that locks in the sound stage and PRAT. I still have more experimenting to do to find out how much better it can get.
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Has anyone compared the Dual Core sound quality to a decent DAC (with the bass management bypassed if possible)? The DAC specs for the VS8053 DSP (section 4.3 of the datasheet linked below) aren't great by modern standards. But if it sounds good who cares!
VS8053 datasheet (http://www.vlsi.fi/fileadmin/datasheets/vs8053.pdf)
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Think earlier in this thread or elsewhere you can find my impression vs the Schiit Gungnir DAC...
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My only comparison is with the DAC in my Cambridge Audio 840-C. I find the DAC in the Dual Core is more transparent, which would be my most important criterion by which to judge a DAC.
But I'm sure one could find more advanced and still more refined DACs out there.
Guido F.
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The VS8053 DSP that performs the 18-bit D-A conversion is a fairly old $1-2 part so I'm impressed that it sounds good.
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As promised, here are my impressions from substituting the AntiMode Dual Core's 9V AC wall wart with a 12V DC CIAudio power supply.
The overall impression is of the same order of magnitude and in the same direction as when I substituted a run of Audioquest Cinnamon (ahem) Ethernet* cable for the garden variety cable I was previously using, that is, somewhat greater clarity and refinement, with more detail, more airy and sweeter highs, better defined bass, and in general a presentation one step closer to the elusive goal of faithfully reproducing a live unamplified event. Also, timbres seem more accurate, which contributes to the overall sense of effortless presentation. And the signal to noise ratio seems better (blacker blacks).
Yes, the difference with using the wall wart is subtle, which perhaps suggest the standard PS is pretty good. But they are worthwhile. And of course, at $350, the CIAudio supply is about one third the cost of the Dual Core, so one would have to consider this before opting for the CIA. Personally, I'm satisfied that the improvement, in my system, justifies the cost.
*And of course, we all know that Ethernet cables cannot possibly affect sound quality. ;-)
Guido F.
I changed the AntiMode Dual Core's 9V AC wall wart with a 12V DC MCRU linear power supply.The sound improvement was immediatly clear, expecially in bass accuracy and bass depth.
But I have a big issue, and I post this message as advice.
After the substitution, my Anti Mode has started to freeze. I mean it freezes in the mid of a calibration, or during the menu navigation, or when it has to update the settings of a profile. It never freezes during the playback, because I tested it works correctly for hours/days when I play the music and never try to access to menu. After each freeze, the TFT display sometimes turns off, sometimes shows raw images, and I have to unplug the PSU and plug it again to unfreeze the device.
Even if I came back to 9V AC wall wart, this issue still persist, and factory reset or updating the firmare to the last version didn't help.
I don't know if the issue was due to the PSU substitution or is a unlucky coincidence or it's a side effect of some other causes, as temperature: in these days is very hot in Rome, Italy, and I have a full tube amp running near the Dual Core, which elevates the temperature.
Actually I can say the Dual Core case is hot, but not so hot.
Do you have any experience with this issue?
General question: can a 12v DC PSU be safely used for a 9v AC device?
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Look at the back of the Dual Core. Does it say "9V AC" (only) or "9V AC / 12V DC"? There are two versions of the Dual Core. I really don't know if the 9V AC version cannot accept 12V DC but one would assume not since it is not so labelled.
I explicitly asked DSPeaker about compatibility and they confirmed that 12V DC was OK with my unit.
Regards,
Guido F.
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It says "9V AC / 12V DC", so it should be compliant to 12V DC.
Actually it started to freeze when I plugged the 12V PSU from MCRU.
Coincidence? I think not.
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No problem running mine with a 12v dc battery power supply.
Though it does have 9vAC/12vDC on the back.
Chris
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In the chip's datasheet I checked the operating temperature of VS1000 (GUI & USB chip).
It is [ -40 +85 C ]
In these days my listening room temperature is around 34C, with the tube full-amp up & running.
There is not cooling system in the device and I have no air conditioning installed.
Could be the case that 12V DC PSU raise even more the device internal temperature and an overheating microchip may halt itself, to prevent damage?
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You may have to send back the Dual Core for service, whether or not the PS was the culprit. I don't think high ambient temperature can cause the problems you are experiencing, though.
If you have a Volt meter, you may want to check that the PS outputs the correct 12V DC.
Guido F.
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Just to update about my issue.
It was due to the temperature.
I installed a portable air conditioning system and now the device works without any issues when the air conditioning is on.
I switched on the device at 2:00 PM, without air conditioning, and it freeze after 10 minutes if I navigate in the menu items.
Be carefull about your listening room temperature.
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Interesting! If this continues to be a problem with ambient temperature, you may have a defective unit, so sending it back for service may still be a good idea.
A portable air conditioner is bound to be noisy, certainly not something you would want in your listening room.
Guido F.
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Is anybody having to convert to or from toslink to another type of digital cable for the Dual Core? How are you doing it? What kind of converter are you using ?
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I'm using a MSB Digital Director to go from coaxial to toslink. MSB doesn't make them anymore, but they can be had on the used market for about $100.00. The Digital Director is 12v also and can be run on a battery ps or linear ps.
Inday makes a good one ($119.00) and can be found at Markertek along with some others depending on your budget and needs.
http://www.markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/Audio-Switchers/Inday/DA4X-R.xhtml
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83343)
Here are a couple more:
http://www.markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/Audio-Switchers/Sescom/SES-TOS-SPDIF.xhtml
http://www.markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/Audio-Switchers/Radio-Design-Labs/HR-DSX4.xhtml
Also the Behringer SRC 2496 can be used as well to convert from coax to optical.
Chris
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Thanks Chris.
Robert.
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Post edited.
I just purchased a used DC (2013 version) and decide to return it. Maybe I will try it another time when my finacial is allow.
Edited: decide to keep it.
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Everybody happy with the Dual Core? Anybody using the advance features? Anybody give up on it?....I'm still having fun with mine.
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Everybody happy with the Dual Core? Anybody using the advance features? Anybody give up on it?....I'm still having fun with mine.
In addition to calibration in the low frequency range, I'm using the parametric EQ, the high frequency tilt curves, and a mild compensation curve.
What advanced features do you have in mind?
Regards,
Guido F.
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Right now, in addition to the typical calibration I added a psycho-acoustic 3 kHz dip. I like the result.
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Right now, in addition to the typical calibration I added a psycho-acoustic 3 kHz dip. I like the result.
This is what Dual Core is all about!
The darn thing is so powerful you can customize the sound you want in your room! 8)
Without the need to spend extra money on something that might improve the sound. :roll:
Do a calibration, mess around with the tilts, house curve, eq, and listen to how it sounds.
Not sure if you like what you did, save it, go to a different profile and try something else.
Toggle between up to 4 different profiles to settle on what sounds best! :D
Way cool! :thumb:
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When using a sub, in the manual it say to put your low-pass filter to max in order to by-pass it. So after the calibration would you leave it to max and does the DC set the low pass?
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When using a sub, in the manual it say to put your low-pass filter to max in order to by-pass it. So after the calibration would you leave it to max and does the DC set the low pass?
No.
After calibration you would adjust the sub amp filter for the best crossover point with your speakers.
Unless you are using the low-pass filter in the Dual Core and you would adjust it from there.
What is your speaker and sub set up 2.0,2.1,2.2 ?
Chris
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Thanks Chis. Right now 2.2. I've tried all the setting though because I started with 1 sub. I bought another last week and a bought 1 this week but I'm waiting for that to arrive. Lots of experimenting to come. :thumb:
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hawkeye99,
In 2.2 mode set the Dual Core to the 2.0 setting, it will "hear" your speakers as full range.
Listen to your speakers without calibration and do your best to find the crossover point with the subs.
Then run a calibration with the crossovers set to where you think they will sound best.
The Dual Core will make small adjustments to blend the subs with the speakers.
Listen and see what you think, and make adjustments accordingly.
Tim at Simplifi told me to do my 2.2 set up this way with great results.
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What rodge says. I used the same method with a 2.1 setup, but it will work the same for 2.2. If after calibration you need to change cross over or sub volume, do a new calibration after making those changes.
Best regards,
Guido F.
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I'm going to try that. I'll have 3 sub though but that shouldn't matter.........I wonder in what situation you would want to use the 2.2 calibration?
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I'm going to try that. I'll have 3 sub though but that shouldn't matter.........I wonder in what situation you would want to use the 2.2 calibration?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question. If you have a 2.2 setup and one Dual Core, then choose typical calibration and choose 2.0 Stereo in the configuration screen. Same if you have a 2.3 setup, assuming all signals are going through ONE Dual Core -- either digital or analog signals, it doesn't matter which as the Dual Core processes everything digitally.
Regards,
Guido F.
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Well 2.2 is one of the options for calibration. I assumed it was for a 2 channel, 2 sub set-up. Are you saying you would need 2 dual cores for the 2.2 calibration?
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Well 2.2 is one of the options for calibration. I assumed it was for a 2 channel, 2 sub set-up. Are you saying you would need 2 dual cores for the 2.2 calibration?
No, you don't need two Dual Cores for 2.2 calibration. But you could have a setup that requires separate calibrations for main speakers and subs, in which case you would use 2 Dual Core (see page 25, top, of the online manual). It my understanding that with a typical system of passive main speakers and active subs where the subs have their own cross over and gain settings (set as in rodge's post) one would choose the 2.0 setup in the configuration screen. However, I think that choosing the 2.2 set up would yield the exact same correction if you have connected the subs as suggested.
EDIT: Actually, I typed the above without thinking ;-). There is NO 2.2 setup in my configuration menu. Only 2.0 and single sub or stereo sub set ups. Not sure if there is a 2.2 choice in a more recent firmware update.
Best regards,
Guido F.
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You are right, Guidof. When I said 2.2 I was referring to stereo subs. :duh:
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Does the DC deal with phase issues between subs and mains? Or do you have to do that manually?
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AFAIK it does.
you might want to give it a try either way and choose which one you like.
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rodge, you could output those graphs to your computer, apply a bit of smoothing, then save the screen image as a .jpg and post it up...
Can this be done? I don't see in the manual anything about this.
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AFAIK it does.
you might want to give it a try either way and choose which one you like.
Been doing some studying and you need to choose one of the sub setting in order for it to adjust phase. If you choose 2.0 it doesn't perform the phase adjustment.
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Can this be done? I don't see in the manual anything about this.
Take a look at section PC link 4.12 in the manual
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With compensation it's worth noting that typical calibration already introduces some compensation. In my setup, a boost of 6dB, which I suspect is indeed a "typical" value for most systems after typical calibration. In my system, increasing the boost to 7dB has had a firming up effect on the bass range and, more notably, an increase in the three dimensionality and 'air' of the soundstage.
One has to keep in mind that increasing compensation has a negative effect on headroom, so going light on the throttle may be advisable here, as in any boost.
But definitely a setting worth experimenting with.
Guido F.
I'm finding that with typical calibration setup the maximum bass compensation is 6dB. I've been playing with speaker and sub positioning and the flatter I can get the room measurement before calibration the less bass compensation it applies after calibration. The lowest I've gotten it is 4 or 4.5dB. Does this make sense?
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I'm finding that with typical calibration setup the maximum bass compensation is 6dB. I've been playing with speaker and sub positioning and the flatter I can get the room measurement before calibration the less bass compensation it applies after calibration. The lowest I've gotten it is 4 or 4.5dB. Does this make sense?
I think so. After applying some additional bass trapping, I found that automatic compensation went down by 1 dB. I think the more effective the room treatment, the less for the DSPeaker to correct.
Guido F.
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I'm sorry to burst into a continuing conversation but I have a newby sort of question. Last night, I brought home a pair of Paradigm Signature S8s. I hooked them up and ran the DSPeaker calibration process. It seemed to me that the equipment performed several more sweeps of the room than it did with my original speakers (another, less complex brand). Was it just my imagination? Does the DSPeaker poll the speaker's crossover and does crossover complexity matter?
BTW, with the Paradigms and my Quad 909s, I'm in the penthouse of audio heaven!
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Glad you're enjoying your new setup. Sorry I have no clue about your question. Perhaps you may want to email DSPeaker support with it.
Regards,
Guido F.
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Got the information that here will be new DSPeaker Anti-Mode™ X4 stereo preamplifier with 2.2 mode xover control for subwoofers + room correction software & (DSD) DAC . It will have new version 3.0 of antimode SW.
more here with google translator
** edit: new direct links below
3 x Coaxial input
3 x Toslink input
2 x Analog RCA input
1 x XLR analog input
USB Audio
USB
Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode™)
Service port
12V trigger output
2.2 Analog RCA output
2.2 Balanced XLR output
1 x Coaxial output
1 x Toslink output
6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)
Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input
Bluetooth module
X4 will be announced to public this week Friday in Finland at hifi expo.
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Interesting. Anymore links? I can't seem to get anywhere with those links above.
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use link with translator (translate from Finnish to English)
http://www.dspeaker.com/fi/kotisivu.shtml
https://translate.google.com/
pictures also here
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107692)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107691)
It would be great to have 3.0 SW also for the old 2.0 dualcore model to test the enhanced 2.2 mode, but not known to me if the 3.0 sw upgrade will work in old hw.
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Great to see this is finally here :thumb:
Anti-Mode X4 presentation of the Hi-Fi Expo 2014
DSPeaker Anti-Mode ™ X4 stereo pre-amp + crossover network Automatic Room-DAC
Golden Ear-winning home-grown Anti-Mode product line expands the collection are placed in the tip of a novelty item. Anti-Mode X4 is a modern stereo system, the heart, which may be the speakers and other equipment to go beyond the usual level of even the most difficult acoustic conditions. This is a real domestic audio expertise feat!
The menu includes such a feature. high-quality Hi-Res / DSD Burr-Brown D / A converters, adjustable 2.2 crossover network, extensive connectivity and a fully revised Anti-Mode 3.0 Room Correction.
Anti-Mode X4 has been specially developed two-channel audio hardware performance optimization. In addition to the main speaker system can be connected to one or two of the subwoofer, and connect them to the audio image seamlessly.
Making room correction is now easier and more convenient than ever before. DSPeaker philosophy, all you need is included in the sales package, including a fully renovated in microphone and mikrofoniständi. The computer or other equipment is required. System ease of use is as usual, paid special attention to making top-level sound achievement does not require user knowledge or expertise.
Of course, not the needs of demanding enthusiasts have not been forgotten. There is automatic in addition to a wider palette of tools which can be used to shape the sound to suit your preferences with always the smallest nyanssia all the way down.
Anti-Mode X4 will be next presented with the Helsinki Fair Centre Hi-Fi Expo Exhibiting 31.10-2.11.2014. You can find us room H405 and H403. Sales will begin in 2015. The preliminary cost estimate is about 2995 € (including VAT).
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No X4 yet. In the mean time it has been developed EQU settings automation functionality to REW EQU window for dual core. Test and see if automation is useful.
REW Beta SW:
http://roomeqwizard.com/installers/ (http://roomeqwizard.com/installers/)
V5.15 beta 6 / changes
Added an equaliser setting for the Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core
REW EQ:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/eqwindow.html (http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/eqwindow.html)
Video 1: at 7 min ja 10min onwards the principle where REW calculates generic equ model corrections.
REW software version is old in the video, but principle is the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9qlB6LK4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9qlB6LK4c)
Video 2: 9:20 onwards
- includes the latest REW:n EQ window settings principles. Video introduces all bells and whistles method for adjusting full range with convoluution, but gives also some hints to basic adjustments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM99RB4gt8o&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM99RB4gt8o&feature=youtu.be)
It took some time before the REW antimode dual core equ "calculator" was developed, but mostly it was just waiting because of misunderstanding what is needed to create the automation from several standard measurement curves. But now it is there for testing.
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DSPeaker X4 is finally out. Compared to the Anti-Mode much improved DAC specifications and USB input (type B versus mini B), additional input/output options, sub/mains crossover optimizer, and a 'real' remote. But roughly 4 times the price!!
Not sure what years of R&D plus that significant price increase gets the user. Any idea?